Adding Muscle!! Help??

[my_horse_zinc]

Title says most of it. Zinc has like no muscle on his topline. He has huge dips near his withers/back (see pic) Pic makes it seem alot worse than it actually is because of the shadows, but it is there and all...

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/Rats_n_Horses/P7013893.jpg
I can't tell where his withers and and his back begins, because surly it wouldn't be back that far!!

He has been putting weight on really well and has started to get muscly legs, especially hind, but I don't know how I can help his dips.

What sort of riding / exercises would help him put muscle there?

Any other advice?

Thanks in advance

[Bay Mare]

Hi

At least some of that looks like saddle damage (the hollows beside his withers) so if you haven't already I'd get a saddle and back check done asap.

TBH I wouldn't be riding him at all at the moment and concentrating on his feed and maybe doing some in hand and groundwork, possibly some gentle long reining. Although 'long and low' isn't the be all and end all, try to encourage him to stretch forwards and down (rather than curling his head back on himself). Clicker training could be useful so that he knows exactly what you're asking him for.

Good luck and please let us know how you get on x

[my_horse_zinc]

Thanks Bay mare. :)

I know his back is all fine. Before about 5 months or so ago, when he was rescued by a lady at my pony club, it was supposed that he hadn't done much work for the past few years.

My saddle is a standard, wintec 500. I use a thick saddle blanket. He doesn't make any fuss to put his tack on. His motion is fine and he doesn't seem in any pain. He goes willingly forward .

Feed wise, he gets 3 cups (dry form) of barley boiled to make it alot, 1.5 - 2 cups of rapid gain, 4-6 cups lucerence chaff, salt and sunflower, olive or soya bean oil (depending on what I find in the cupboard.) He gets that once a day, every day or nearly everyday.
(I am still at school and I have to rely on my parents to take me to my horse)
He lives on the pony club grounds with 8 other horses.

-Just one more thing to note - I am in NZ and things are quite different equine ways :o

Thanks again :D

[martini55]

Thanks Bay mare. :)

My saddle is a standard, wintec 500. I use a thick saddle blanket. He doesn't make any fuss to put his tack on. His motion is fine and he doesn't seem in any pain. He goes willingly forward .




Unfortunately that doesn't mean his saddle fits. Horses are such forgiving creatures that some will happily work away for their owners in tack that does not fit. I don't know if saddle fitters are around where you are but you'd be best getting the saddle checked out. If it doesn't fit, then it won't matter what you feed or how you exercise him, those dips behind the withers will not fill out.

I would second not doing any ridden work for a while and concentrate on doing lots of ground work and getting him to muscle up a bit. Remember if you opt to do this then you will need to get the saddle checked once he has muscled up a bit.

[HorseManiac]

Have you had a qualified back person come out?

I would give him a month of and just gently lunge im until some of his topline comes up then get his saddle checked, ride him and saddle checked in 2 months again. or something like that.

[my_horse_zinc]

Unfortunately that doesn't mean his saddle fits.Horses are such forgiving creatures that some will happily work away for their owners in tack that does not fit.
Yes I do realise that, he is such a sweet horse.

My farrier who my friend's family knows, breaks horses and retrains them and fixes their problems etc, just runs his finger on either side of the spine and just knows. He told me Zinc was good. EG - he ran his fingers over my friends horse and told her straight out that the horse had a vertibrae out. Which was correct and now she is all fixed!

I don't know of anyone in my area or for that country! that does saddle checks.

[martini55]

Well in that case can I recommend this book: http://lorienstable.com/book/
It's really good and easy-to-understand and may help you assess how your saddle fits. If there aren't any saddle fitters, are there any physios who know about saddle fitting? Who do you get to re-flock etc?

[my_horse_zinc]

Thanks for the book martini55, I will try to find a copy!

The saddle brand new, a few months old, hardly been used. I don't know much about saddle fitting.

I can guess what a lot of people who are reading this thread are thinking.

-Whats a girl whos still in school, who hasn't got much knowledge etc doing with a rescued horse who sounds like he needs someone who knows these things?

Hmmm......

[Roofio]

well if anybody is thinking that let them carry on ;) you're asking for advice which is an excellent start!

I echo what the others have said about not riding for a while, saddle and back checks etc.

Can i ask how old he is?

My horse has gained topline in the past from dodson and horrel build up cubes, and currently has improved since he's been on baileys lo cal balancer - Zinc probably would be ok on the normal one as he's not much of a fatty.

Lots of long lining, in hand work, free schooling etc. Good luck!

[Esther.D]

No-one will be thinking bad of you at all - you have recognised the problem and are asking for advice - that is a very mature and sensible thing to do and shows you care for your horse. Can't really add to what the others have said :)

[my_horse_zinc]

Thanks guys!

Can i ask how old he is?


Funny enough, I just ran upstairs and had a shower and while having a shower remembered that i better mention his age.

He's only 15 yrs approx. He is a 15.3 - 16hh quarter horse.

in hand work Yes he is very good doing that!! Very happy to trot alongside me and sometimes puts in a few canter strides.

[Roofio]

ok well if he's 15 you have plenty of time and a good chance of getting him looking good.

:)

[my_horse_zinc]

Hi everyone!

I took some better photos this evening of his wither area. These are more like what they are like. The 1st photo is a bit wrong becasue of the shadows make it look quite exaggerated! (sp)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/Rats_n_Horses/P7023880.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/Rats_n_Horses/P7023875.jpg

Oh and the reason he has no neck showing in the second pic is because he was eating his feed.

Thanks :)

[x-degan-x]

If he was mine i would build him up by lunging him and also would advice a harbrige for building up his topline a his back muscels as this will encourage him to work long and low and near a classical outline, however i don't want to be mistaken as saying to stap him in to a faulse outline as i would suggest using a harbridge loosely to begin with and only for short periods of time. like 5 mins on the harbridge on the lunge then 5 mins with it off and so on, so as to build him up gradually. hope this can be of some help as this has worked for my mums horse who looked like a rake with muscel wastage all down her left side.

[my_horse_zinc]

Hi x-degan-x! Thanks for your advice.

What is a harbrige? :o:rolleyes::confused:

Thanks

[x-degan-x]

This is a harbridge 28596

and this is degs in marsh this year with my sister riding him with the harbridge on

28597

this really helped to build him up and to get him lighter in the hands

this is degs this month28598

Shires Harbridge Training Aid

Simple to use
* Encourages horses of any standard to work immediately along correct, classical lines.
* Quickly develops correct musculature
* Negates the tendency for horses to lean
* Encourages lightness and self carriage
* Encourages the horse to step up and under
* Affords greater softness over the back
* Lifts the forhand allowing a soft and supple rein
* Improved Paces
* Greater engagement and control
* Encourages the rider to sit stiller and taller in the saddle
* Help creat lighter hands
Nylon Version

hope this helps:)

[x-degan-x]

:mad: soz it didn't work but if you go on google images and harbridge training aid you should be able to find it

[Joyscarer]

I have a harbridge for sale if you need one. I bought mine and it mysteriously went missing so I bought another one and the first turned up so the new one wasn't used.

It is cob sized.

However, I wouldn't say a harbridge is good for working in an outline because it only keeps the head from coming up past where you want it. I use mine for ridden work to get Joy out of her giraffe impressions. I can then leave it off after a short while. It acts as the perfect pair of hands with perfect timing on action and release. I'm just not good enough to acheive the same consistent results as the harbridge. It has elastic insert in it too so the horse doesn't lean on it.

If you want something for lunging I would go for a pesoa instead as this encourages the back end and that is where an outline begins after all. You'll only be able to manage a maximum of 5 mins on each rein to start with.

Failing that go for a bit of long reining. It's fab to be able to see what your horse is doing from the ground so you can encourage impulsion whilst working with a good contact to really encourage that outline you want. Not only that you don't just do circles so it isn't so stressful on the joints as lunging :)

[my_horse_zinc]

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.

I think I will take some pics tomorow of the saddle on his back and see what you all think.

Thanks again

[Jaimee]

It is great that you are prepared to put in the work to build your horse up but I have one concern.

I dont think this horse will build much muscle unless you change his diet. He needs protein to build muscle, our pastures are very low in the necessary amino acids (building blocks of proteins, which are the building bocks of muscle). The feeds you are giving him, while containing good proteins, I fear are not containing anywhere near enough.

Black oats is a very good place to start.

I agree with what has been said about the saddle, wintec 500's really dont do anything for a horse with a lot of wither and it can be pretty well impossible to get them to fit without compressing the muscle. Trust me I have been there.

Good on you for asking questions, the more we ask the more the horses benefit. Goodluck with him :)

[Siogfinsceal]

a combination of work and feed should sort him out. The dip in his back may be caused by a number of factors yes it could be due to an ill fitting saddle but it also may be due to under development of the muscles in those areas.

Teaching him to work up from behind in a correct outline will help to build him up in those areas - lunging will definately help using side reins or something similar.

There are different types of supplements and feed you can use to help build him up too one I used a lot is called 'equisoy' by Hi form they are an australian company so you might be able to source it www.hiform.com.au I think. They also have a great product called topline :)

[my_horse_zinc]

Thanks Siogfinsceal!! I'll have a look in my saddler for Topline, Equisoy or another weight and muscle supplement.