standing at the mounting block - advanced

[Silvia]

I am a disabled rider and always use a block with a ramp leading up to it for mounting. I lead my horse up to the block, move her into position, walk round and up the ramp and mount. I used to need someone to hold Jessy for me, but by now she is pretty good about standing still on her own until I get on the block.
She does not walk off, but occasionally fidgets a bit or shifts her weight. Or sometimes I might place her a tiny bit too far away from the block. The problem with that is that I need her in one exact place to be able to mount comfortably. So I would like to be able to correct her position while standing on the block. I have tried to tap her off side with my whip to encourage her to step closer. But when I do that she just turns round to face me looking confused.
If I could make her understand where she is supposed to be, maybe I could even get her to park herself in the right place - I could walk up the ramp holding her reins and she would find the right position, without me on the ground shoving her towards the block.
How would you go on about training her to to that? NH people, maybe? I am aware that this is a difficult task even for a smart horse like mine :D But I have time, I just don't know what sort of command to use and how to establish it.

[Skib]

When you say the exact position, what do you mean exactly?
A. Is it her distance from the block that is wrong? i.e. the gap between the block and the side of the horse?
or is it B. her position being too far forward or too far back?
And what is your tolerance?
And are you able to walk to lead the horse up to the block?

I have taught a mare to stop at the right place for me at the block using Mark Rashid's method.
But I look after the distance A. I lead her to the block in such a way that she is already the correct distance away from the block. I then step up on the block and she must move forward for me step by step so she is in the right position (forward and back) for me to reach the stirrup. I need to stand by her shoulder, well in front of the normal position for mounting.
I hint to her to walk just one step further by using my whip, tickling or nudging the shoulder of the front leg I want her to move. I click with my voice and tell her I want one more step please.
If she steps forward too far, or backs off, or goes crooked because she wants to graze the bush behind me, I get off the block and quietly lead her round and approach all over again. Horses learn quickly. It takes two or three approaches that's all.
But one must be consistent. Do the same every time you mount and dont accept anything other than what you want. The mare I demand this of will usually step backward when other students mount her. I dont tolerate that. I am not annoyed with her. I just lead her round and make her understand my rules.

[Silvia]

Well, for the gap between block and horse my tolerance is close to zero. For forwards/backwards I can handle an inch or so. I can walk up to the block and around it.
What I would like to be able to do is, when I stand on the block and find Jessy is too far away to give her a signal of some sort to ask her to step closer to the block.
I do groundwork with her and she knows how to yield to pressure. I can move her sideways away from me on the ground. How do I get her to do the opposite - move sideways towards me?

[Skib]

You shouldnt have to. You should lead her up close, close alongside the block and expect her to stay there.
But it depends on how much control you are used to having over a horse's feet?
You can learn how to lead a horse accurately both on the straight and turning corners. There is a lady called Sue Brown who teaches people to lead through a maze composed of poles moving one foot at a time. (part of the Kelly Marks, Intelligent Horsemanship organisation.) I cant really suggest anything else.
Horses dont usually move sideways from stationary without moving forward except in quite advanced dressage (leg yield) or Western. It puts a strain on them crossing their legs, so you need to think out what you are asking?
Why cant you lead the horse up so it is close alongside the block? How could you alter your lead up technique to ensure there is no gap?
Try to re-invent the task so that you only need to ask what is easy for the horse. I can only tell you what I do. Maybe someone else will reply to you. But physically a horse cannot move its front end towards you without its back end swinging away.

[capalldubh]

Hmm, don't know if this is exactly what you are looking for, but maybe some of it might apply?

I ride bareback about every other day and my horse is 16.2hh or maybe a bit bigger (I am 5'5"). I can get up off a mounting block, but even standing on top, I still have to jump across his back sideways and swing my leg over. So I decided to train him to come to me when I was standing on something high - in this case a log in the field.

I have trained him to wait till I'm on top of log, then to come over and line himself up close to the log so that I can just step on. I have tried to capture it on video because it works well and I am pleased with him - he sometimes is a little far out and will step forward then reverse his bum in closer for me.

The video is crap, sorry :o difficulty of being on own in field and trying to capture these things, but I think you can see he is bringing me the saddle (that's my cue "bring me the saddle, Jackson" :D). Also sorry about the signs of obvious enthusiasm on his part :o Once lined up he will not move until I am on top and he has been asked to move off.

I trained using the clicker and did it one weekend when he couldn't ride out because of a sore foot. Problem is, he is entirely clicker trained, so I can't estimate how many steps you'd need and how you'd go about getting it with a non-clicker savvy horse :-( I could try, if you're interested and you think it's the sort of thing that might help :)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/seventines/th_MVI_0578.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/seventines/?action=view&current=MVI_0578.flv)

[Silvia]

:cool: That is sooo cool, capalldubh. Very similar to what i want to teach my mare. It is great to see that it can be done.
I went through the basics of clicker training with my mare when i got her two years ago, to establish ground manners. Have not used the clicker since then, but I could dig it out again.
Did you begin with standing on the block or from the ground?

[Skib]

That is amazing. Do you think it could be done without a clicker?
With a riding school horse, one is limited in what one can do.

[capalldubh]

D He loves doing it too - what you can't see on my rubbish video is that when he gets lined up, he does the last step with a little flourish and a chuckle.

It's kind of hard to remember exactly how I trained it (even though it's only been about three weeks :o), but I know I basically chained together three things he could already do.

1. is coming when called. It was quite easy to train, I just faced him and beckoned and began for clicking when he looked at me, then a shift of weight forward, then a step forward etc. until he would come from some distance.

2. is standing still when I'm higher than him - I needed this before to mount bareback, but at that point I was basically chasing him around with the stool and clicking when I could put it down beside him and he would stand for a second. Built it up to standing, then standing while I walked up the step, then when I walked up step and touched his back etc. etc.

3. is shifting towards me - so like your mare, he would line up a bit too far out. He has had lots of training on turn on the forehand on the ground so is good at following a suggestion to do this, but I cheated, and waited until he was close enough to touch his withers, then I would rock him slightly towards me and click, until he stepped in himself - I remember that bit, because he got a huge jackpot and after that, he pretty much always got it right. Again, I did this standing on the wee stool rather than the log.

Then I put all three together, stood on log, called him over, and when he got quite close (it took a few tries), rocked him in a bit. After that, he just did it himself. After a few days practice, it now transfers to any thing I stand on where I'm higher than him and call. He knows the treat comes when I'm mounted, so has absolutely no motivation to move off until it arrives.

Sorry the last bit is a bit vague - to be honest, he's kind of training me at this stage - I often get the weird feeling that he's known how to do it all along and has just waited for me to ask him right :o

If your mare knows what the click means already, you could probably have a go - but she might also pick it up if someone positioned her for you, and you clicked when you liked her position. I guess you can see from above that we went from lots of treats for each little position shift, to eventually just one for the whole process and that took about two days training.

I can't say for sure if it would work even for a horse that already understands a click - but worth a try :) I think I would probably not have been able to train it as easily about 2 months ago which is when we had the breakthrough, but we would have got there, taking a bit longer maybe?

[Silvia]

Thanky you capalldubh for taking the time to describe the training steps you went through with your boy. I know that these things can sometimes be hard to explain. So much of it happens between the individual horse and handler.
Your boy does look very pleased with himself. Can't wait to try with my horse.