Turn on the forehand.. or haunches?

[Daffy Dilly]

Before I get on the phone to my instructor (I think she'll be working) I wanted some thoughts.

Daffy is pretty bad with lateral work - he doesn't get it. Even on the ground, I can back him up, and move his quarters, but his shoulders? Nu uh.

So today I did some schooling, and we had a few little turns on the haunches. Not properly (I doubt he crossed) and not many, but there was movement of his shoulders and it wasn't forwards.

Then the turns on the forehand were coming on really well, and everytime I asked for TOTH, I'd get a TOTF (confusing!), even if my foot was on his shoulder at one point in an attempt to really exaggerate the aid.

I'm fairly sure the confusion was at his end (I mean, foot on shoulder is no where near his quarters ;)) but I wasn't certain how to correct him when he moved the wrong part of his body, nor how to make it clear to him to try something different because I was asking for something different.

[coss]

you have to make clear whether its a pushing leg or a holding leg i think. when asking for TOTF you half halt with the outside rein, look in the direction you want to turn and use your inside leg back and actively push the horse's back end (well, you push behind the girth but you know what i mean ;)) and your outside leg is passive and can "catch" the backend when its moved far enough. it is often easier to do a TOTF out of walk rather than halting. i always do turn about rather than turn on as turn on can ruin halts as the horse thinks everytime you halt you are going to ask something else.

With TOTH (again turn about to keep the forwardness) you half halt/collect the walk, put the outside rein close to the withers, open the inside rein and put your outside leg back slightly but don't push, it should just block the outside hind from coming forwards.

In both exercises you should use your seat/weight aids but i'm rubbish at explaining them, i do them without thinking about it and can't describe it.

I think where you put your foot on the shoulder may have been the confusing bit as you want to encourage the shoulders to keep moving and if you put your foot on them it is like blocking (although i do see the reasoning behind it) and you want to block the outside hind.

hope that helps and apolgies if you already know all that.

[Mehitabel]

what were your reins doing? trying ot think about how i ask for TOTH (sat in my office so trying ot be subtle) i think i open the rein on the side i want the horse to move to, and flex head slightly towards it to begin with - whereas with TOTF i keep reins more corridory and flex head slightly away from the direction i want them to move.

[Daffy Dilly]

Trying to think of aids.

For TOTF with quarters moving to the right, I flex to the left and generally hold the right rein to stop him wandering. Left leg applied just behind the girth, left hip slightly forwards because I've discovered he turns from "hip aids".

For TOTH with forehand moving to the right, I was flexing slightly to the right, but applying the left leg on the girth, or even in front at one point. Perhaps flexing him to the left instead (thinking how you do leg yield before half pass) would help..

[Daffy Dilly]

Sorted I think, on the ground at least.

Cost me a lot of mints (should've opted for next day delivery on that clicker book) but we can do turn on the forehand and haunches inhand.

For TOTF, me stood in front of him, wanting to move his quarters to my left, I flex his head to my right, step slightly towards his girth and tap his *rse with my whip. :p

For TOTH, me stood in front of him, moving his shoulders to my left, I flex his head to my left and tap his shoulder with my whip, or hand towards the end.

I'm finding that the more flexion I have the better the result I get, but I realise that once he truly gets it, we'll be able to do it with less flexion.

Once we can do a fluent 360 on the ground in both, shall progress to shoulder in and leg yield too. :cool:

[Keket]

Before I get on the phone to my instructor (I think she'll be working) I wanted some thoughts.

Daffy is pretty bad with lateral work - he doesn't get it. Even on the ground, I can back him up, and move his quarters, but his shoulders? Nu uh.

So today I did some schooling, and we had a few little turns on the haunches. Not properly (I doubt he crossed) and not many, but there was movement of his shoulders and it wasn't forwards.

Then the turns on the forehand were coming on really well, and everytime I asked for TOTH, I'd get a TOTF (confusing!), even if my foot was on his shoulder at one point in an attempt to really exaggerate the aid.

I'm fairly sure the confusion was at his end (I mean, foot on shoulder is no where near his quarters ;)) but I wasn't certain how to correct him when he moved the wrong part of his body, nor how to make it clear to him to try something different because I was asking for something different.

Been there, done that. Turn on the forehand is far easier to teach then turn on the haunches. It's very important that you stay away from turn on the forehand until he gets turn on the haunches 100%. Then you can do turn on the forehand. We started to teach Coquette turn on the haunches. She was starting to understand. Plant her hind foot and cross over in the front a bit. Then she went for a month's training, and the trainer taught her turn on the forehand. It was MONTHS before we could get Coquette doing a proper turn on the haunches, once she figured out that it was so much easier to do turn on the forehand.

[jenb]

Does the horse (and the rider!) understand indirect and direct rein aids? If so, it's very easy to get TOTH. Simply collect the walk - and don't over use the leg, simply squeeze the reins alternately to slow the walk steps down. Use the leg only if the horse stops altogether.

To ask for the TOTH, say with the forehand coming round to the left, use the indirect right rein to ask the forehand round, the left rein prevents the horse moving forwards and describing too big a circle. The left leg is at the girth, the right one behind the girth, but neither are too active, both remain just "there" at the horse's side unless needed to maintain activity.

Just say if you don't understand indirect and direct rein aids and I will attempt to explain!

The Handbook of Riding Essentials by Francois Lemaire du Ruffieu is a great book for clarification of the aids.

[coss]

Trying to think of aids.

For TOTF with quarters moving to the right, I flex to the left and generally hold the right rein to stop him wandering. Left leg applied just behind the girth, left hip slightly forwards because I've discovered he turns from "hip aids".

For TOTH with forehand moving to the right, I was flexing slightly to the right, but applying the left leg on the girth, or even in front at one point. Perhaps flexing him to the left instead (thinking how you do leg yield before half pass) would help..

one thing i pick up on there is you shouldn't be flexing left to do TOTH with the forehand moving to the right. My logic (which can be flaky) says that doing that would make it harder.
if you were to do TOTH to canter (TOTH, walk straight for a couple of steps then canter ;)) you would do canter on the right rein after TOTH to the right so you need to flex right -the direction you are turning.
and outside leg behind the girth to block the outside hind stepping forward which makes the turn easier.
as jenb says, collect the walk first and it makes it much easier.

[jenb]

Agree with coss, don't ask for counter flexion in TOTH.

Is your instructor experienced in training these things? And does she clarify the aids to you before asking you to carry out a movement?

If your basics are well established and you ride your horse in lightness, all these things should come relatively easily. I rode on a clinic recently with Francois (as mentioned above), I borrowed a horse who had hunted in Ireland and been hacked, and that was pretty much it. He was horrendously stiff on the right rein, and will take time to work through that, but by the end of my second hour with him & Francois teaching, we had achieved the beginnings of TOTH, TOTF, rein back and attempted walk to canter but he wasn't quite off the leg for that yet. All in softness and lightness with the minimum of aids.

Now I know not every instructor has the experience and skill of Francois, but what I'm trying to say is it shouldn't be a battle for you or your horse. Good classical instructors are like hen's teeth in this country!