arthritis & glucosamine

[Rudi]

Hi - I have a 15 y.o. Standardbred mare who has terrible arthritis in her knees. When she walks she limps slightly but the worst part is the sound - an awful clicking and cracking. I am going to start her on glucosamine soon and I am wondering a few things;

- how long should it take approximately until I can expect to see results (if it indeed does help her).
- I am giving the dry powder form and am wondering about any tricks or tips to make sure she takes it. She is turned out to pasture and gets no additional feed at all except a handful of oats from time to time as a treat. I am planning on sprinkling the powder on the oats but I'm sure she'll turn her nose up at it.
- has anyone had success with glucosamine with knees that actually crack/click?
- any other suggestions for supplements or regimes that may help ease her discomfort?

Thanks in advance :)

[lamprellsarah]

hi my 21 year old mare has arthritis int eh knees due to fall.
have you tried magnet therapy meant to be very good, have no idea about glucosamine, i use supple joint codlivine, it's very good but well my mare doesn't sound as bad as yours!!

[Aly]

The Glucosamine, is found in products like Cosequin, which is given for an initial period e.g. 6 weeks, then once the animal is sound, it is stopped indefinately, until the animal is no longer sound again.

MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) is an excellent product, however it is a long term solution, and it does not necessarily work for every horse.

Apple Cider of vinegar is an excellent product for arthritis, from experience, and far less costly than the two products above, however this too may not work for every horse.

Goodluck with making your horse more comfortable. I think it is definately worth giving the apple cider vinegar, even if you go on to use the glucosamine.

[anuvb]

I don't know whether this will help or not, but I did work in the arthritis research field about a year ago. Have to try and keep this short. As far as I am aware, the jury is still out on GS.
Weigh up the pros and cons. GS is (a) expensive (b) will take a long time work (months rather than weeks) if it works at all and (c) is more than likely to be something that you have to keep feeding your horse on an almost permanent basis.I would recommend a gentle exercise routine worked out to build up your horses suppleness and muscles over a period of a year. Often arthritis is compounded by stiff joints, muscle imabalnce poor posture etc. Combine this with cod liver oil (this IS proven to work in arthritis). Don't expect results before six months is over.
Hope this helps.

[Lgd]

We did a lot of research on this for my friend's elderly gelding. The product with the best research data to back it up was Cortaflex so she went with this. It is best given as a concentrated liquid for the first few weeks and then convert to the powder formulation. It is a little more expensive than just using the powder but the effects seem to kick in quicker. She saw a difference in him very quickly, admittedly his knees were not the problem, it was more feet/fetlock with him and his hind end was fine. He was 17yo when she started him on it, at which point he was intermittently unlevel in front. He is now 21yo, very sound and competing at Advanced Medium in affiliated dressage. She also found homeopathic remedies helpful so that may be worth looking into as well. She used Rhus Tox for him but it needs to be specific to the symptoms the horse has. (Rhus tox is good for stiffness that improves on exercise).

[anuvb]

PS - Sorry had to dash off and do some work, so my reply was incomplete. As far as I am aware there are no scientific reasons for believing that GS will stop the knee clicking etc. This is more likely to be due to muscular/tendon tightness causing a misalignment of the joint (along the lines of human patellofemoral pain syndrome). The only way around this is by a well balanced exercise routine. Whatever you do in your research, don't forget that feed and pharmaceutical companies want fast returns on products they have invested money in and will tell you that their treatment is always the answer. Reading between the lines, I think Lgd friend's horse probably has been managed very well and and as a consequence the exercise has paid off. I would recomend looking at the web-sites of some of the human arthritis charities (sounds daft - Iknow) but these are a little less biased and will give you the most up-to-date info and perhaps give you ways which you adapt your horses lifestyle so that you can have max enjoyment.

[Lgd]

There is actually very good evidence around now (human and horse), the best evidence is for products that contain glucosamine and chondroitin, the addition of MSM also seems to confer a small additional benefit. Georgie (my mate's horse) was already competing at just below the level he is at now, the only change made in his long term management was the Cortaflex. The jury is still out somewhat on the prophylactic use of these products in high level competition horses. The horse data was around long before some of the more objective human data and there is some good research from the vet schools on it.

[anuvb]

LgD - You're right, there is a lot of extremely intersting data on how much it benefits knee joints, but I have to be honest most of it is contradictory. I actually worked in a vet school (alongside some people working on equines studies) and a did a research masters on this topic. I am currently working in a related field and so am aware of recent papers. Like I say, there are no miracle cures for arthritis and it is extremely misleading for feed/pharmaceutical companies to say that it will improve joint function. In my mind this is not unethical (sorry a bit of a hobby horse here!) but is also unfair as arthritis can be an extremely distressing condition for all those involved. In fact the American Society of Rheumatology, actually states that it does not advocate the advantageous benefits of GS until there has been significantly more information on this in both animals and humans. All I can say is that I would suggest using something that is proven to help like Cod Liver Oil along with a balanced exercise regime. Due to the expense of GS I can't recommend it - at least not for a couple of years when long term data is out.

Sorry, I am probably confusing the issue at hand for Rudi. I'll try and make myself a bit clearer. It ultimately comes down to how much money you can afford to spend on a long term basis, on something which is still not conclusively proven to work.

As for whethr it is taken in a powder or liquid, will depend on the concentration or the dose so a lot will come down to which your horse will eat. I always mix cod liver oil in with a handful of mollychop. Perhaps you can do the same with the GS if you decide to go that route.

[Rudi]

Wow, thank you Lgd and anuvb for the great and thorough info. I have already ordered WinFlex, a powdered form of glucosamine so I will give it a try just because I've already paid for it. But I am concerned about the price. This horse is simply retired to pasture to give her somewhere to live - we don't use her for any activity since she retired from racing so I don't really want to spend heaps of money on her, but I would like to alleviate some of her discomfort. I would much rather use apple cider vinegar or cod liver oil, which leads me to my next question; how much of either do I give her daily? And what is the best way to disguise it (she only gets oats or carrots other than pasture grass). Thanks again.

[Aly]

I gave my old boy, who was 16+hands one cup per day of the apple cider,. He grew to love it and eventually just drank it out the cup. The amount was advised to me by an "old Wife and her tale" but my vet confirmed that the amount was ok.

To begin with though I just put it in a token feed of chaff, carrots and mollasses. As I said in a previous board, my horse went from being unrideable, to being able to event, pony club etc. just using the apple cider, and it was cheap and available in 40 litre drums from my local fodder store.

Can't advise on the cod liver oil I am sorry, as I have never used it.

Goodluck. Aly

[anuvb]

Hi Rudi,

Firstly, I would follow Aly's advice and consult your vet on the correct dosage. I usually give mine cod liver oil in the form of Super Solvitax and follow their general guideline. Again this depends on the dosage and concentration of the product that you buy. Obviously being based in the UK I don't know what is available over in Canada. As with any other feed supplements it is best to get advice from someone who knows your horses physiology and genetic makeup. I have never had a problem with feeding the horse this (may be I just have greedy horses!) as quite often the feed supplements you get have added flavours etc and I would try just mixing it with the oats and carots.

If she is kept out at pasture then I would consider lungeing maybe once or twice a week. Whilst field kept is much better than stable kept, the horse will still tend to spend most of it's time standing still. I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep the horse moving. If you do a little and often then this will take down lots of swelling, help movement of fluid within the joint and build up muscles to help the whole unit of the joint function. Also, whilst non-steroidal inflammatories (NSAID's) like bute, may not seem a particularly attractive option in an age of alternative therapies, you could start by giving this to your horse before you lunge her just so that she starts to move more freely (again check this with your vet). It doesn't have to be a high dose if you are not expecting anything in the way of heavy work. Hopefully, this could this be then stopped once you have some initial results. It sounds as if you just want to manage the situation better for the horse and I wish you all the best. Oh, before I forget - the other thing I would recommend is that you make sure that you keep the horses weight down and don't let it get a summer belly. Knee joints are some of the most weight bearing in any animal and whilst they respond well to mechanical stimulation (i.e exercise) extra weight can often exacerbate a problem. Also see how it goes with the GS, it certainly won't harm the horse to add it to it's diet just make sure you really check with a vet before you go mixng feed supplements. Apart from being cheap the added advantage of CLD is that it does have certain vitamins, but obviously you don't want to go over feeding this dosage. Apple cider vinegar - I don't know anything about!
Good luck!

[Rudi]

Thx Aly and anuvb for taking the time to reply. I will ask around about the vinegar and cod liver oil to see where I can buy it and also talk to my vet. I am picking up the g.s. tomorrow so I'll see how it goes.

By the way, even tho this mare has such cracking knees and a slight limp she can't be in that much pain as she still gallops around the pasture with the boys, gets down and rolls often with no trouble getting back on her feet, and her favourite past time is putting all her weight on her front legs in order to buck at the others ;) It's just worse in our frigid winters (-40 degrees).

Thanks again.

[CheshireKate]

Hi
For the record, I'm loaning a 15 yo at the moment. He was VERY stiff in his hind quarters (rumour said and Osteo has now confirmed arthritis), so I started him on Cortaflex powder 3 weeks ago, mixed with his feed. The loading period is 2 weeks, but there was an improvement in his movement (much freer) after the first week - enough to make other people comment. He's still stiffer than other horses, but it's a great improvement.

If you get it from www.discountsaddlery.co.uk (I had that from Yann - Ben is also doing well on it), it's just over £50 including delivery for 4 months supply.

Good luck!
Kate

(Oops - just noticed you're in Canada! Try searching on Cortaflex then.)

[Yann]

Good to hear Willow is doing better :)

Ben is miles better too now, recently did a 12 mile charity ride with no ill effects at all. The cortaflex made a sudden and very noticeable improvement in his joint mobility, he was suddenly able to pick up his back feet by himself, which I'd never seen before, this was after about a week or so.

Glad my info was of use!:)

[Rudi]

Thx for replying ChesireKate. I checked out the web site and Cortiflex sounds similar to the stuff I am using now - WinFlex, which is glucosamine-based with added vit. C and calcium, although there was no list of ingredients in the Cortiflex ad. If you read this, could you tell me if Cortiflex is glucosamine-based?

I started my mare on WinFlex yesterday, the first time I have ever given her any supplement, and she put my fears to rest...she gobbled up the powder from my hand which I had mixed with only a few oats. Hopefully it helps her:)

[Lgd]

Cortaflex is a combination of Glucosamine and chondroitin, there is some evidence that the chondroitin is needed for proper absorption of the glucosamine. Cortaflex should be available in Canada as it is made by an American firm.

[Rudi]

Thx Lgd. Hmmm, now I'll have to check out where I can buy Cortaflex. If I'm going to spend the time and money on g.s. I'd like to give Allemo the best stuff.

[Dizzy]

Just like to say I gave my 15 yr old arthritic Border collie a thing called Glucomax 5000, its glucosamine and msm combined the difference in her within a few days was amazing, it gave her a new lease of life. Unfortunately and quite obviously it can't stop the hands of time, its definitely added happy months onto her life.

Well worth a try,

Lesley

[lamprellsarah]

does discount saddlery always offer these deals?? as i can't afford the money at the moment

[Rudi]

Hi Lesley - thanks for telling me about your experience with g.s. and how it helped your border collie. I will use up my plain g.s. then look for something with either msm or chondroitin mixed in, since people are saying that straight g.s. may not be optimum. Although I have been told that vit. C, which is added in my WinFlex, is very good for horses.

[Dizzy]

Rudi, this is whats written on the tub -

Gluco Max D 5000

Unique veterinary supplement to maintain healthy joint and cartilage.

A blend of high potency marine Glucosamine Sulphate 5000mg/30g, MSM & Vit. C in pure glucose. (Glucosamine has the properties of Chondroitin but is much better absorbed while MSM provides organic sulpher to maintain healing after damage and Vit C promotes tissue healing).

I get mine from HVS Veterinary Manufacturing Chemists, Co Durham DL12 ONG, Tel 01833 641112 - if you have a problem, give me shout.

Lesley

[B W]

I tried the supplements for my 18 yr old Walker but it didn't help. What did help was getting some weight off him and putting him on 24 hr turnout. Last year I couldn't ride him he was so stiff. This year he's a different horse. I don't ride him up and down hills but he can do level work just fine. He really has enjoyed this spring getting out and being put back to work. I can't believe it's the same horse.

[Rudi]

Hi Lesley - thx for telling me the ingredients. My WinFlex has less g.s. than what you used, 3,000 mg/30g, so I don't know which is best between 3,000 or 5,000. Allemo is not a large horse, just average so I will see how she does on just 3,000 for now. I'm guessing that the address you gave me is for England...not sure, but I am in Canada, on the prairies.

It sounds like chondroitin is not needed as it has a similar function as g.s. MSM may be something for me to look for. Mine already has added vit. C and calcium.

Here's something interesting - last night I chased Allemo around the pasture, as I sometimes do just to get her running, and I couldn't believe how she ran! She galloped full out, bucking as she ran and even lept over a ditch. I don't think I even heard her knees cracking...it would be amazing if the g.s. is working already after only 5 days but it was uncanny how she moved.

[Dizzy]

Sorry I can't help you with the dosage - but thats encouraging news about Allemo, I saw the benefit within a couple of days with Jess, my dog. I admit I sceptical at first, she was and still is very arthritic - I used it as a last resort. She was on pain killers from the vet, that I gave if and when she was in pain. She went a long time without them after taking the Glucomax.

All the best with Allemo,

Lesley

[horselverfrver]

Hey. Has anyone heard of Fore Flex? My 12 year old has minor arthritis and we were using it before it got much too expensive. I would like to find a nice glucosamine product like it that is low-cost as it worked very well for him. It was about $120 for 3 months. So,
What products would you recommend?

[LCA]

Rudi I hope you have the same success that we have had with the horse I am riding. She had arthritis (well still has) in her hocks which appeared to come on quite suddenly (it was recommended that she be put down after coming in almost crippled one day from the field) she now looks and rides fantastic but it has taken a while to get her this way. She gets cortaflex powder and buteless (up until a couple of months ago she was on a daily dose of bute). She gets regular exercise a min of 3 days and normally more than that per week - hacking and schooling and she has really become quite supple. She is 17 and looks in fantastic condition for her age (which I know is not really that old anyway). The vet says keep on doing whatever you are doing as it works and our instructor that we see once a month sees none of the skelatal stiffness that she had this time last year. 24/7 turnout, regular exercise and a supplement should hopefully see her right - as the likes of lgd have advocated here Cortaflex seems to work extremely well. Good Luck !

[horselverfrver]

Thanks for your advice. I think I will try the cortaflex.

[nat17]

Just for the record, I use Gloucosaimine 5000 for my mare Minnie, she is only 13 but has servere arthritis in her hock, which has retired her from work, I found it did work within weeks actually, for the first 2 weeks you give double dose and on the third week when you reduce to one scoop, I noticed she was much better walking out in the morning.
I use Gold Label Gloucosimine 5000 and I will be returning to it a few weeks before they come in at night for the winter.

I know a 23 yo 16.3 CB that used to event that has bad artritis in the shoulders and is on gloucosime permantly and she rides out 2 or 3 times a week plus some school work like a horse half her age, but take her off it and you notice within a few weeks!;)

[shakari]

my mare is also 13 and is also on glucosamine plus 5000, she has been on it a week and christ don't we know she's feeling better!!!

[Rianne]

My horse has had arthritis since she was 4, she's now 17 and I still ride her daily. 2 years ago I started giving Glucosamine and chondroitine, though the horse was already sound thanks to my farrier, she improved on her gaits. Since last week (and this is only as a precautionary measure- I want to enjoy my horse for as long as possible!) i have started giving Artri-Matrix (Cavalor) which besides gluc/chondr. vit. C, MSM contains Hyaluronic Acid. This product was referred to me by someone I met on the internet....who turned out to be the owner of Belgiums largest racing stable...little did i know :D He has had some good results with this product. Hyaluronic acid is basically the end product of gluc/chondr. and is the very substance that is the schock absorber of the joint itself. This person doesn't know that I know who he is now (since he gave me his personal emailaddress) and god did I ask some stupid questions ;)

[TBEventer2002]

My dad's 20-something rescued Arab gelding and my 11YO hunter both have had great success with FluidFlex. It smells and tastes great (well, Rumby eats anything, but still...), and about $22 gets you over 30 days' worth. You can put it on feed or give it in a syringe or however you want (it's a thick liquid).

When I bought Rumby, he had the beginnings of arthritis in one of his hocks. Because I would be jumping him a lot, I put him right on a joint supplement. I actually started him on PentaFlex HA (with hyaluronic acid, as he was due for an injection). You basically use it for 2 weeks, then go on plain PentaFlex powder for teh next six months, then do two weeks of the HA, then six more months of the plain... It worked so well that I never noticed until he was off the HA that his back was soooooo sore! As that stuff is terribly expensive & I didn't care for how it 'covered up' his other problems, I quit soon after. He has been maintained fabulously on the FluidFlex, and I noticed almost immediately a great decrease in the amount of "clicking" he does as well.

I did some research on HA and found that prolonged continuous use in humans actually over time DECREASED the ultimate effect and subjects found that they needed more to stay at that comfort level. I presume that is why it is generally recommended (not always -- there are still companies out there with products that say you should use expensive HA all the time) that you use it for just a short time, then stay off for a while.

[PridesAngel03]

Piggy is my 20 yr old Arab that has arthritis in one of her knees due to an injury. I've been giving her Max Flex Maximum Relief Glucosemine Pellets for at least 3 years now. I also don't stall her, so she gets adequate movement exercise. She runs around like she's 4 and carries on something fierce when left in her paddock alone. No, she's not buddy sour, she just prefers the attention rather than you giving it to another horse like her baby.

Aphagirlie05 rode her bareback the other night for fun and loped her up and down the outside of the riding ring. I watched closely and didn't detect any gimping like we used to see in her when ridden.

I'll be having her x-ray'd again when I can afford it, to see how the knee looks now. The last time she was x-ray'd the vet said that it wasn't a horrible knee, but that it wouldn't get better. But she already runs around better than she did when I had her x-ray'd. I've stopped her monthly Adequin shots about a year ago because this Max Flex seems to be working so well on her. That's why I want to have her x-ray'd again to see if there has been a change for the better.

I know she sure enjoyed being out and "playing" the other night. She loves being ridden. I'm sure she's missed being ridden by the kids.

But until I get her x-ray'd again, we're still going to take it VERY EASY with her.

Anyway, the Max Flex Maximum Relief Glucosemine Pellets last for 2 months and is $50 - $55 for the 3.75 lb tub depending on where you purchase it from. On sale for $44.95 from www.JeffersEquine.com for the 3.75lb bucket.

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/assets/product_images/Equine/MaxRelief.jpg
Good Luck with your research.

Blondy ;)