too far forward/back?

[horsy]

I posted the other day about my horse having his teeth done and he then behaved brilliantly when ridden. Well the day after he went back to his usual narky uncomfortable self, and i thought oh well yesterday was just a one off.

Then I went to take off his saddle and i noticed I could see his black spot on his back, and i was sure the day before i hadn't been able to see it, was covered by the saddle cloth. I looked at the sweat marks under the saddle and realised it was too far forward and obstructing his shoulder. The day he had behaved brilliantly I had accidentally put it a bit further back. So rode again today and moved it back to off his shoulder and he went great again. Problem solved, i hope.

BUT. Because he has such an enormous shoulder,and short back, i don't know if the moving the saddle to clear his shoulder is moving it too far back on his back? It just looks a little wierd as his girth seems to be completely in the wrong place. Its a 17" to fit my long legs, and the saddler told me last time he came out that his last rib was about where that black spot was, so i seem to have a bit of room left, it just looks wierd. Maybe its because I'm used to putting it in the wrong place.

Pinks lady if you are about could you possibly give me some advice about forward girth grooves etc and what i can do about it? I've read a few of your posts explaining it. I now think it applies to my horse. Would I be better trying to get a dressage saddle to combat the obstruction of his shoulders?

Pictures are the way i normally put it, and then where i moved it back and he goes better in it;
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m73/horsy_1/Photo0070.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m73/horsy_1/Photo0071.jpg

[Mehitabel]

second place looks much better to me. if you were to tihnk of changing saddles to free the shoulder even more, a working hunter cut one will give you more flexibility than a dressage one - they're straight down the front, but normal girth straps and withouthe wacking big knee rolls, so you're not stuck in a long-leg position, and it's easier to jump in them.

[SJ wanabe]

I'm not really sure on this one, do you know where the loins are?
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z282/Honey4eva1/loins.jpg

You should be able to fit a spread out hand between the back of the saddle and where the loins are.:D Hope this helps(sorry pic is so big!)

[horsy]

Thanks mehitabel, never heard of that cut i will look into it. SJ wanabe thats what the saddler was refering to when trying to decide if he could give me a 17 1/2" instead. My horse has a black spot on his back which is almost exactly where his loins start, so i can use that spot as a guide

[Mehitabel]

http://historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/petalstandleft.jpg

this otherwise unflattering pic shows mine nicely

[horsy]

oooh i've just been looking them up, there is a 17" saddle company one on ebay.... its a little bit lovely...:o If my car would stop breaking maybe i could start to save up for one :D

So it has small knee rolls? Only ask because i took my velcro ones off my GP ages ago they were getting on my nerves.

[Pink's lady]

The second picture is much better but I would even put it a further inch or so back.

There is enough space behind to put the saddle slightly further back, so that's not an issue.

However he will be wider further back so the saddle might be too narrow - that's why saddles that are too narrow side forwards. The balance looks ok from that picture though, which is a good indication of width fitting.

He has the forwards girth groove problem however - the girth wants to sit right behind the elbow and pulls the saddle forwards.

If your saddle is an otherwise good fit and you are happy with it there is no resason to got a new one. A dressage saddle will mame little difference - it's the points of the tree that's digging into his shoulder, which a dressage saddle still has - they only have straighter cut flaps. You can just get the girthing re-arranged.

Does it have point straps (not sure if it's a normal or a cob saddle)? They are specifically designed for this - put the girth on the point and the first strap. HOWEVER it pulls the points down into the horse you need to make 110% sure the flocking is good (thorowgood flocking is usally crap) and the width is perfect. I personally would take it to a good saddlers for them to check the flocking.

If it doesn't have a point strap you can got one put on for not a huge amount of money (£20 maybe).

If a simple point strap isn't enough then you could get a donut out onto the girth.

Tia has huge shoulder and a very forwards girth groove - a donut and dressage straps can make the girth sit like this if needed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Tia/brodietiaewanalexis005.jpg

A donut is very simple - a square made of stiff leather with two slits in it
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Tia/brodietiaewanalexis004.jpg



The front slit claps on tightly to the point strap and pulls the second girth strap forwards. it means you can use the back balancing strap so the saddle doesn't tip, which is sometimes can when using the point and 1st strap.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Editted%20photos%20etc/saddle0082.jpg

It can be done with a normal short girth but the dressage girth makes the saddle more stable. Decent leather dressage girth straps should cost about £40.


Yuo do need to make sure his saddle is other wise a good fit as sliding forwards is often an indication of poor fit. Even if the width is right the rest of the saddle is wrong - a well fitted saddle shouldn't need anything fancy modification. Although you do occasionally got very awkward shaped horses;)

[horsy]

Thanks PL thats exactly what i wanted to know. Yes it does have a point strap but i wasn;t sure how to use it properly, as i thought it would just pull the points of the tree further into his back? It has a back strap too, its is the cob GP so has four. It did actually slide forward a little when i was riding, had moved almost back onto his shoulder when i got off.

So these dressage straps, do they just buckle onto my ordinary straps to make them longer? And then onto a dressage girth? The donut seems to be a fab idea, should be pretty easy to make too?

But i dont understand the third picture. Are you saying i could use a donut and the point strap and back strap together? I understand how that would stop the saddle lifting. "The front slit claps on tightly to the point strap and pulls the second girth strap forwards. it means you can use the back balancing strap so the saddle doesn't tip, which is sometimes can when using the point and 1st strap.
" The point strap also runs down the where the knee rolls should be, so when i try to use it the girth seems to end up standing off, away from the side of the horse. ( I took the knee rolls off but there is still some padding there)

And if i just took it to a saddlers and asked them to check the flocking would they know exactly what i wanted checking? I wouldn't want them to say "check which bit" and i would be like "ummmmm...:confused:"

[Pink's lady]

If you use the point strap and the back (balancing) strap without a donut it defeats the purpose - the girth evens out into the middle.

The donut is a tight fit onto the point strap and you have to force pull it on. The back slit is less tight. You do up the girth using the point strap first the slide the donut about until the back strap is drag forwards.

The second picture show the saddle with the point strap (on the left) and the balance strap (on the right) threaded through the donut. Notice how the point strap is almost straight and the balancing strap has been draggged forwards?

The third picture is of Jo's old horse since it's the only good photo I had with the saddle flap up. Ignore the actual girthing and just look at the paint shops ones.

Yes, you can and should use the donut for the point and balance strap - that's the whole point of it.

And yes, the point strap will run over the knee rolls - you need to fiddle with it until it sits properly. Depending on when you slide the donut to, the further forwards you can put the girth. It's trial and error until you find what works.

So these dressage straps, do they just buckle onto my ordinary straps to make them longer

No, they're proper leather dressage straps - you will need to get the saddler to take the synthetic short point and balance ones off and replace them with full length dressage straps. They might think you're a bit odd for wanting it done but just ignore them,;) It should cost about £40. You can probbaly get girth straps extentions but the place they would buckle onto the exisiting straps would interfere with where the donut should sit.

You won't be able to make the donut your self unless you can get ahold of some very very thick leather - they need to be ridged. I supose you could use plastic but it would damage your straps. The saddle should be able to make them - mine cost £5. You might need to explain exactly what you want however. It might be worth working out what angle you want the slits at too.

ETA - found a full piccie of Tia's saddle (well, mine, that's shoes borrowing)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Tia/brodietiaewanalexis008.jpg

Oh, and RE flocking - just make sure it's not compressed or lumpy. If you ask them to 'check the flocking' they should know what to do. It should be done every 6 months to a flocked saddle anyways, though most people don't bother. Quick adjustment should be cheap (£15 maybe), topping up about £30 and full reflock about £80. I got my thorowgood completely re-flocked as the synthetic flocking they use is crap - my saddler used lovely quality (made her show me first;)) short fibre white wool.

[horsy]

Thats fantastic PL, i completely understand now. Would you mind if I kept your pictures and used them to show the saddler as an example of what i was after? Have to find a decent one now who doesn't just try and sell me one of theirs. Will need to wait till i've fixed my car :( Money Money Money.... thanks again

[marjiva]

I was told by a very informed instructor that any time the saddle sits on the horses shoulder it restricts movement and thus causes problems. Further back is much better. Your horse is telling you this by his actions.