Joy is girthy again

[Joyscarer]

A few months ago I had problems with Joy threatening to bite and ignored my own instincts and treated it as a behavioural problem.

I finally ignored the advice I was getting and got the saddle fitter out. After he had been she wasn't girthy at all for at least a month, now it has started again.

This time the problem isn't when you tighten the girth, it is only when you position the girth round her and pop it onto the first hole so there is no pressure. After you have done that you can tighten all you want with no problems.

I can't help thinking that this time it is actually behavioural because it is never when the girth is tightened, only when the girth is first popped round her belly and secured on the first hole. :confused:

My initial thoughts are that she sees it as a sign that I am going to be controlling her and so is acting up. But then she doesn't do it in any other situation and is such a good girl in all other respects. Having said that if it was behavioural then surely she would continue the behaviour throughout the whole girthing proceedure, not just the initial wrap round?

I don't know, any ideas would be welcomed :)

[Roofio]

try her with a roller and just an elastic surcingle, if she responds the same then its more likely to be behavioural. if not then its more likely to be a pain response somewhere along the line.

they do like to test us dont they! :rolleyes:

[jamsinthecat]

my lovely little mare does exactly the same thing. i have been through four different saddles and two saddlers convinced that it must be the saddle causing her pain. anyway i happened across an article on a thing called girth pain syndrome and it seems to describe perfectly what my mare is doing. i'll try and find the website and post a link for you. anyway apparently the nerves in affected horses are super sensitive in this area and just brushing against them is like having an electric shock(no wonder she pulls faces at me!!) apparently as the girth settles in so to speak the pain deadens and eventually subsides which is why you can then do the girth up with no drama. veterinary chiropractic is a suggested treatment option but i haven't tried it yet as there isn't one anywhere near where i live. what is do is sort of pat/stroke the girth groove before i tack her up to warm up the area a bit. seems to help:) they do like to make us worry don't they;)
have a look at http://www.chirovet.com.au/articles/gps_web_104.pdf for some interesting ideas

[Joyscarer]

Thanks for the replies. I get so worried and don't want to fall into the trap of not listening to her again.

I did wonder at first whether a girth sleeve would help but given that this doesn't happen when the girth is tightened, only when the girth is first slung around I didn't think this would be of any use.

I have also tried placing the girth in a slightly different position but Joy does have a very deffinate girth groove so this wasn't too sucessful!

Thank very much for posting that link. It made for very interesting reading. I have been looking for signs of discomfort when riding mounting and tightening the girth but there are non which is why I am so confused :confused:

[Lucy J]

my mare is awful with her roller, i think she finds it really uncomfy, so that wouldn't help to try in my case. (i don't use it much)

i have to say that if she nips when girthing i know its time to get the saddle checked (i always do one hole at a time) although usually i get on to the first hole ok - depends which girth i use and how fat she is!

sometimes though she even nips when i fasten her surcingles on her rug, so thats no help!

[Bertie]

Joyscarer - this is really interesting as mine is very girthy, she will blow out so much till she looks pregnant, pulls all sorts of faces and always when I go for the first hole. As she was previously out of work I've been paranoid about making the girthing process as nice as possible starting on first holes on both sides and gradually tightening over the tacking up process so it's got time bed in (for want of a better word) but recently she's been really grizzly, I've had her saddle checked and been told its fitting really well - so I will watch with interest your thread for ideas and any results you may get :)

[Joyscarer]

I'm not happy about this, I rode her yesterday and she wasn't happy with the initial wrappping around of the girth and the tightening so matters are deteriorating.

Today I decided not to ride and just went to touch the girth area and she laid her ears right back and was distinctly unhappy, all a far cry from Monday last week which is the last time I rode her when I moved her to her new field.

I have had her saddle checked recently and I was wondering if the flocking had settled and the saddle needed doing again?

I want to make sure there is nothing sinister for my peace of mind and am now waiting for a call back from the back lady.

Anyway I'm obviously not going to ride or work her again until I am happy in my own mind that there is no pain/discomfort.

[Lucy J]

you are describing excatly what happens to my mare. last time it was because the saddle had got to wide and had dropped onto her shoulders. previously it was because the saddle was too tight!!!

i have read that some horses are always like this - some because perhaps a rib had been broken while they were in the womb.

if the horse was fine and now isn't then i have found from experience it is the saddle ( even if i've convinced myself she is just being a pain!!)

just go withyour gut instinct. thats the best advice i can give!

[Joyscarer]

Yes, I'm wondering whether to get the saddler out again, whether to call the vet, whether to have the back lady first?

I don't know which way to go first. :confused:

I spoke to my RI last night too who said that she thought I was doing the right thing getting Joy checked out by the back lady as I hadn't done this since I got Joy in December and that an annual MOT should be done even if you think nothing is wrong.

She said that she hadn't felt that anything was wrong when she rides Joy and that she just might be ultra sensitive in this area and need a big fluffy girth. We'll see. Given the amount of negativity from people whose opinions I respect on this forum, I can't help but have my doubts about the Wintec.

What should you do each year? Get the back lady out and then have the saddle checked or have the saddle checked and then get the back lady out? :confused:

I am really begining to doubt everything now. The only reason I trust what the saddler said about my Wintec is that I contacted him with a view to buying a new saddle. He is a saddle maker as well as a fitter and could have either make loads more money from selling me another one or persuading me to go custom but he didn't :confused:

I really had trouble sleeping last night. I am so worried about this recent change in behaviour in my girl.

The fact that we swapped yards last week isn't helping because she isn't as keen to come to see me as she was before the move last Monday. Is this down to her being uncomfortable or because she doesn't trust me because I took her away from her old home? I only rode her that once from the new place so I don't think it is all down to pain/discomfort but I am feeling very low at the moment :(

[Pink's lady]

What type of girth are you using? And how tight do you have it? It's highly possible she's sore in the girth area, nothing to do with the saddle.

But are you sure the saddle fits? In my experience the saddlers tell you what you want to hear. And a lot have not a clue what they are doing.

I had a (recommened) saddler out to see Kim years ago. Ancient old hunter who was semi-retired. She had an old synthetic saddle (15yrs old) which was about 4 sizes too narrow (know that now:o). She's been wearing it for years. I mentioned that she was semi-retired and if the saddle could be made to fit, that would be great, bu if not I was willing to buy her a new one. The saddler instead suggested I bought a rearer raiser as they would 'make it fit'

On retrospect the saddle was the most appaling fit:eek: Far far too narrow, sitting 6inches higher at the front and digging in at the back. There is NOTHING that can be done to make it fit but he saddler has just told me what I want to hear. Poor Kim has permanent muscle impressions on her back from wearing it for years, even though 5 yrs ago I did some research and got a her a better saddle.:o

You know what i think of wintecs;) Why not find a saddler who doesn't like there and see what they say.

As for the girth, I would get a different girth (a good padded leather one, or a decent string one) and a thick, padded girth sleeve and see how it goes. I'd also get a good phyio out to see if there is something else going on.

[Trewsers]

My Storm always pulls faces and chomps at you when you do her girth up - she's always done it tho. I have had her saddle / back checked and I do it up very slowly - by degrees - so as not to shock her too much! Vet says there is nothing wrong I had him check her over. I think its just remembered pain from the past - perhaps a saddle that didn't fit her too well or a harsh girth. She pulls faces the moment you pop the saddle on her back - even just doing up one hole!!!
I presume yours has only just started this behaviour tho? Perhaps if you've moved yards then its all part of the settling in again?

[Frances]

You could try the prolite girth guard - helped one of ours for a bit though tended to slip.

You could also try a full leather girth - they sometimes work better

Also, clicker training to work on the already learned reaction/behaviour. Just gently placing the girth, doing it up quietly and rewarding the good behaviour and ignoring the bad. Over and over again.

You could stretch her front legs out, one at a time obviously, - some horses have very thin skin under the legs and it could be that it nips.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck.

[Bobbin]

I think it's likely its pain related, if the behaviour stopped and has started again maybe the saddle doesn't fit, maybe it felt better than the last one but still isn't right.

My mind is boggled with regards to saddle fitting, my mare has a new saddle, if I pop her on the lunge for a few mins before tacking her up she stands like a lamb, if I do it straight off she hates it still.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think I'd have the back lady out first. See what she thinks about pain issues and possible causes and move on to other checks from there. It is worrying that this behavior stopped, then started up again. But if she has, for example, popped a rib out of place while playing in the field, the saddle might hurt without the saddle actually being the cause of the pain (in which case a saddle fitter wouldn't be able to help).

That link was very interesting, thanks to the commenter who posted it!

[Joyscarer]

Thank you everyone.

I have the back lady comming out at 2pm on Tuesday :)

I definitely think it is pain/discomfort related and rather than get the saddle fitter out again (a much cheaper option), a second opinion from someone else is the way I have decided to go.

The one thing I don't want to do is fall into the trap of repressing the behaviour if it is a symptom of pain and discomfort. The only other thing I thought was that Joy is starting to get a nice thick winter coat and it could be that the hairs are being pulled out by the girth.

Either way, I need to be absolutely sure that it isn't something more sinister. Joy is due a check up as I haven't had one done since I got her so this is the perfect time to get started.

Pink, I know your opinions on Wintecs and you are of the people I was alluding to in my previous post. I need a second opinion and my vet recommends this lady that my field mate uses so I see what she has to say.

When dealing with Joy today she was fine with being groomed on the girth area but started pulling faces and laying her ears back when I placed my hand low on her near side. The muscles did seem bunched on that side and the off side was fine and she remained unconcerned :confused:

I don't think this is because I girth or saddle up from the left because I am one of those that believe in doing as much as posible from both sides so don't favour the left.

There were no signs of her being protective of her back. I had a good feel over her back today and she wasn't bothered in the slightest. The only place she pulled faces and laid her ears back in response to was the lower near side.

I use an Aerborn girth which is elasticated on both sides and I'm not one of those that get tempted to over tighten. I do the girth up on the lowest holes first and then bridle up before returning to the girth. I bung on my hat and hi viz and then tighten the last bit. Joy doesn't blow herself up for girthing although she used to whe I first bought her.

I'll let you know the outcome on Tuesday.






Ps. I am secretely hoping that I can sway hubby into getting me a Saddle Company saddle now that Joy has stoppped growing. Christmas is approaching ;)

[Sammii]

Good luck for Tuesday, i'm in very much a similiar situation and i'm ringing up the back lady tomorrow after deciding not to give him winter off not being ridden, and get it sorted and checked regularly :)

[Joyscarer]

I'd love to know how you get on Sammii :)

Whilst I obviously get no pleasure from your situation it is a comfort knowing somebody else is going through the same thing.

I just posted on dreamchasers thread regarding Dolly. At least we have professionals that are able to come and help. I wouldn't know what to do if I were her and had nobody to help me :eek:

[Pink's lady]

It's possible she's been kicked/rolled on something. Or if you has a wobbly moment and had to drag yourself back into the middle. It does sound like the girth is sore. A very common place is right at the bottom, on the sternum. The skin there is thin with little muscle/fat covering and therefore the girth can almost press directly on the bone. If you touched the left side first she will have been less guarding by the time you touched from the right.

[Joyscarer]

The physio came today thank god and now I feel so let down and angry. :mad:

She said that Joy is very stiff through her back due to an ill fitting saddle. She recommended that I come to a saddle fitting clinic which the practice hosts every 6 weeks and a fitter comes from Oxfordshire to do it. I don’t have transport to get Joy to Winchester and I’m not sure how well she would travel as the only other time I travelled her was for a fun ride and she wasn’t good at loading.

I am so angry. I doubted the suitability of the saddle months back (thanks to Pinks lady et al) which is why I called out the fitter to buy a new one. He said it wasn’t necessary and altered the old one. Joy immediately stopped being girthy when I test rode her in the altered saddle and my balance was improved and my confidence rose again. I mentioned to him about getting the physio out because the saddle had needed to be altered he said he didn’t think it necessary and that she looked and moved well. It was what I wanted to hear and I believed him.

I had paid a professional saddle fitter to solve my problems and he didn’t see them despite me going through my concerns point by point. I talked to him at length about Wintecs (I’m sure you’ll be able to find old posts of mine detailing this conversation) and citing point by point the concerns that Pink's Lady has always posted about Wintecs, he assured me this wasn’t the case with that particular saddle in Joy’s case. I trusted him given that he could have sold me a new saddle and made more money on it than just on a callout to add flocking.

I just hope my positive threads about Wintecs haven't been responsible for anybody buying one given anything they read by me :(

When the girthyness started again my friend (and ex-yo) again asserted Joy was being naughty (which is what she said originally and one of the reasons why I hesitated about having the fitter out in the first place) and it was a reaction Joy gave because I was going to be riding and asserting myself over her ands she was trying to push her boundaries.

Even so, I had been saying that when she got the back lady out to do her cob (who showed such clear signs of a stiff back that even I had no doubts!) I would go halves on the call out and have Joy checked over at the same time. She showed no signs of getting the physio for her cob out despite being prompted to by the farrier every month since he first shod him. Within 2weeks of me moving yards I once again trusted my own instincts and called the physio.

I have been taken through several exercises to do with Joy. Weirdly enough she is quite supple in most areas (despite my dislike of schooling) and not in pain on the stiff bits so that is one thing at least.

So now I need to find a trustworthy saddle fitter. I like the look of the Saddle Company saddles and the fact that they get such positive comments from so many on NR.

I have been advised by the physio to go for as big a weight bearing panels as I can as Joy is a sensitive girl. I mentioned western and she said that she thought Joy's back would be too short to carry one off but that an Autralian stockman's might do the trick but emphasised she wasn't a saddle fitter.

I am just so nervous of trusting anyone else. I don’t know what to do. I haven’t got a clue when it comes to saddle fitting which is why I called somebody out rather than just buying untried online. What if the same thing happens again and I have spent over £600 on something that will make my girl suffer even more. :(

I feel so letdown and unworthy of my horse I just want to cry. I just thank god I haven't ridden that much since the beginning of the summer holidays. I dread to think how Joy would be now if I had been riding regularly :eek:

[Pink's lady]

My good deed of the day is done:D I can go to bed now:D

You're story is oh so common, esp with Wintecs. I had the exact same problem 6yrs ago, saddler said it was fine, still not happy, saddler still said it was fine. Tried different saddler - told not to touch wintec with a bargepole. Got new saddle, apologied to pink, problem solved.:o

If you're looking for a saddle with wide panels a Barry Swain saddle would be fabulous if you could afford on - I've never seen a saddle with such wide panels! They're not cheap thought. But they are adjustable - if you could find one second hand you can send templates to Barry Swain and have it adjusted, same a saddle company.

Saddle company's saddle are good saddles BUT

- they are no more adjustable than wintecs - the only part that can be changed is the gullet. However, unlike wintecs the rest of the tree is a good design and fits the majority. They also have a couple of different tree types.

-The flocking inside them is great- it's NOT proper wool - it's synthetic. OK synthetic, but still synthetic. I had mine completely reflocked with proper white wool.

- The panels were also on squint on my saddle, and I've seen others like it. I had them moved easily enough though.

Once you've checked over the workmanship and flocking they are great saddles and generally fit most horses really well.

[Joyscarer]

Thank you Pink :)

I have got over my feeling of being let down and am now on the hunt for a decent saddle fitter.

I haven't been able to tell my hubby yet as he is away and the mobile signal is rubbish but he is prepared for this need for a new saddle because I have been banging on about this for months now :o


Upshot is that I have a Wintec VSD to sell on to go towards my next saddle. I just hope the next person has a clued up saddle fit to ensure it fits ok. :(

[joshes mum]

I know pink doesnt like wintecs but surely they are not bad for all horses i have a TBx whom i ride in a wintec 500 and never had any probs.

[Joyscarer]

I know pink doesnt like wintecs but surely they are not bad for all horses i have a TBx whom i ride in a wintec 500 and never had any probs.


I would never say a saddle is bad for all horses, it just didn't suit mine despite being told by a professional that it did. In fact I think I'm right in saying that Pink's friend is getting one as it does suit that horse and even Pink agreed!

If I thought for one moment that my saddle was going to be bad for all horses then I wouldn't be cleaning it (:o ) ready to sell on eBay. I would rather take a loss than put a bad saddle up for sale to muck up another horses back.

I just dispair. I did everything I should have and still got it wrong :mad:

[Joyscarer]

I went out to a tack shop that carried a vast number of saddles including Saddle Company and spent the morning trying them out for comfort.

Funilly enough, I didn't find the Saddle Company one very comfy at all :eek:

The one I immediately liked was the Thorowgood L6. It had a nice deep seat and wasn't rock hard. Has anyone had any experience of these?

I have another saddle fitter coming out to me a week tomorrow bringing a selection of saddles with her including the L6's and Saddle Company. I am looking forward to getting Joy more comfortable :)

If she suits the L6 and I get some good feedback on NR about it then that would be my preference. The most important thing to me is getting something that fits her and then I will consider my comfort.

[Fizz]

i am going through this with jay right now, im looking at the T4 high wither.

hope you find one that suits you both :)

[joshes mum]

Joyscarer have you tried TDS saddlers in meadstead they are very good.

[Joyscarer]

I have someone coming over from Boorley Green. Joy is just outside Droxford :)

I sat on a few different makes whilst I was there and was disappointed that I didn't like the Saddle Company one they had there. I was leaning towards that one :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is all by the by as there will be a large selection to choose from and it's just a case of finding the right one for Joy and making sure I can cope with it too.

I ideally need something with a deeper seat that won't chuck me into a chair seat position :o

The L6 was really comfy for me and I like the fact that the back panels can be changed too rather than just the front gullet. Given that it is the back of the saddle that has been causing the stiffness in Joy's back due I am keen that her new saddle will fit right in that area.

I need to have faith that this fitter knows her onions :(

[joshes mum]

well good luck i hope you get it sorted soon saddle fitters are as difficult as farriers by the sounds of things.Its so annoying they are suposed to be the profesionals whom we rely on to get things right, it kinda makes you wonder who to trust doesnt it.:confused:

[Joyscarer]

I have the saddle fitter coming out today. Fingers crossed this one knows her job :(

I Googled her and she has been recommended on other forums but then my last saddle fitter was recommended to me AND my RI uses him so what can you do :confused:

[Joyscarer]

Well the saddle fitter came today. She rang to say she would be late so it was all very rushed in the end as I literally had to dash off to pick up my daughter from school.

The important thing was that she was with us for 2 hours and the fitting part wasn't rushed, she just didn't have time to explain in full what I would be getting!

The upshot is that I am getting the new Thorowgood Cob T6. There was a lot of options to run through. Different trees, then different panels.

I'll pop up to see her tomorrow to find out exactly what options of each she has gone for and why.

Joy has a very forward girth groove which doesn't help and also can't take more than a 17 inch saddle although my bum is more deserving of an 18 inch so I need to diet.

Add to that Joy is still slightly croup high so has more growing and filling out to do.

We have a well fitting (I hope) saddle sorted out so all I need to do is get hubby to phone up and pay for it (and a non-slip numnah) once he has been paid on 15th :p

Athough the saddle is great for Joy, and she moved nicely in it, I don't find it as comfy as my Wintec VSD. The important thing is that Joy is happy. I'm sure I'll get used to the new one in time and will forget about the old one which I am now going to list on eBay.

[Pink's lady]

Thats good news. Thorowgoods are nice saddles. My only gripe is the very narrow panels they have at the back.:rolleyes: I have a thorowgood cob with Flair but eventulally got a saddle company saddle as the panels are wider.

If you find it uncomfy try a seat saver - can work wonders!

[Joyscarer]

Thats good news. Thorowgoods are nice saddles. My only gripe is the very narrow panels they have at the back.:rolleyes: I have a thorowgood cob with Flair but eventulally got a saddle company saddle as the panels are wider.

If you find it uncomfy try a seat saver - can work wonders!

Thanks pink :)

The lady spent time trying various panels and we thought we had a fit until I got on to ride and she made me get straight back off again :D

Looking at the Thorowgood website, the only mention of the 3D fit is with the L6 but this new T6 has the same features.

I'll pop in to her today if she is going to be about and have a more indepth conversation about what panels were available and what she decided on and why. Having been let down once I want as much info as I can to get things straight in my mind.

I don't know if it was just wishful thinking or Joy showing off for her field mates and neighbours again (as she was doing on the lunge) but she did move beautifully when I trialed the saddle.

Hubby gets paid soon so I get Joy's new saddle soon.

On the plus side, Joy seems to have lost a lot of her stiffness down the right side. She still has some that I can feel down the left side.

The plan is to get the physio back out again at the end of the month to reassess the situation. Once I am happy that the physio is happy then I will start building up the hacking and will get my RI back in to ride Joy and see if she notices any chance in Joy. :)

In the meantime the massages and groundwork continues :D

[Joyscarer]

Had a chat and Joy has the cob tree, medium wide gullet and drop panels.

She showed me the difference between the ones she was looking at and the drop panels we ended up with. There is a lot more support through the shoulder as when I got on Joy with the first ones in place the saddle dropped down at the front hense I was ordered off again straight away :rolleyes: Also if you look at the back (which is the problem area of the old saddle) it has wider weight bearing surfaces there too. It was good to be able to look at the differences between the 2 options that she narrowed it down to :)

Aparently, from what I could gather, for my needs I had the option between 2 different trees - the cob and the GP, 4 different panels and 5? different gullets.

The panels on the Thorowgood feel a lot softer than the Wintec ones although the seat on the Wintec feels deeper to me - it may just be because that's what I am used to though. I'll need to bring Joy back into proer work gradually and see if the seatsaver will be needed or whether it is just the shape and depth that I find different. I'll know after building up to my mega hacks :D

Looking forward to seeing what the physio has to say once Joy is back working under saddle again as Joy is less stiff through her back but then she would be because I'm not riding!

The saddle fitter certainly talked the talk. She comes from a behavioural background so looks to the horse for signs. Also she keeps her horses barefoot which is something I would love to be able to do. I like people who don't have to stick with convention for the sake of it.

Thanks everyone for your input. :D

[cazrider]

Jusr read all of this and really pleased to hear its OK now for Joy, even if you do have to ride with a fluffy seat saver.:p

On that note there are some lovely pure sheepskin seat savers out there. I ordered one and also ordered the sheepskin girth cover as well. Joy might really like that as an optional extra. Unfortunately in my case they didn't have the black seat saver in stock, but I love the grith sleeve. It's like a girth sleeve shaped teddy.;)

[Joyscarer]

I think I said in a previous post that I was considing a girth sleeve.

I think as Joy's coat continues to thicken up I will get one. A nice black sheepskin one so that her coat doesn't get pinched and to soak up some of the sweat. Her sweatiest bit is her girth area :)

[Pink's lady]

Wow, sounds like thorowgoods have come on leaps and bounds since I bought mine (only last year!).

Once you've got your saddle you must send me pictures please - I'd like to see this new panels thingy. I've heard of this new fangled panel change thing which sounds like a good idea, but not see it yet. Thats great they've changed to panel width - my saddles panels looked like this:mad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Editted%20photos%20etc/saddlenew003.jpg

This looks worse than it was - it has flair fitted so the panels were very very swuishy and moulded to her the second weight was put into the saddle. But still FAR too narrow!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Editted%20photos%20etc/saddlepanelsnarrowness.jpg

[Ruskii]

Just read this and my interest perked up when you mentioned Physio and Winchester ... was it Amanda Sutton ?

I recently had her out and we've been using her for the last 10 years. Fab lady :D

[Joyscarer]

Just read this and my interest perked up when you mentioned Physio and Winchester ... was it Amanda Sutton ?

I recently had her out and we've been using her for the last 10 years. Fab lady :D


She was was Sutton's but it wasn't Amanda herself, T'was someone from the practice whose name I have forgotton :o but she is from New Zealand :)

[CurlyWurlyRach]

I know how you feel about professionals letting you down. I had a dentist come out and give Curly the all clear, got another one and he had a feel in her mouth and picked up 'The Big Rasp' - he let me have a feel and her teeth were sharp and mouth was all ulcerated and cut. I felt so guilty and awful for her but dont beat yourself up about her saddle, you didnt know :)


I had a sit on one of the new Throwgood saddles - i liked it. Looks lovely aswell. Im after the T6 jumping saddle.