Anyone ever used this bit?

[showjumper-zoe]

Opinions please, quite pricey so want to be sure if I decide to buy one:)

[Iron Maiden]

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, looks very severe - look at those shanks! The amount of leverage you could apply with that is huge. How the bit rubbers could 'protect your horse's mouth' from a contraption like that I have no idea.

[horse__obsessed]

good god thats expensive

I know people who ride in bits witht the shanks and the mouthpiece, the shanks and noseband, the noseband and bit, and one similiar but with different shanks

never ridden any of the horses concerned other than out on slow ahcks so cant comment on severity as they were all in other bits when i rode them

[Ptaty70]

Hi

I haven't read any of your other posts that I can remember, so could you please tell me what you are hoping to achieve with a new bit? This one is very severe, so it would be useful to find out what the problem is first..

thanks!

[Afellpony]

Looks like a bit the Medeval knights used to use. Today, only a sadist would use it!!!! Why do you want to use a bit like that?

[Keket]

Ptaty beat me to it. What do you want this bit to do? I'd rather spend that kind of money on a good trainer to help me work through the problem then put that contraption in any horse's mouth!

[Bobbin]

Ptaty beat me to it. What do you want this bit to do? I'd rather spend that kind of money on a good trainer to help me work through the problem then put that contraption in any horse's mouth!

Mmmmm I agree, I am a great believer that technically you should be able to school a horse out of any habit, given alot of time and patience.....I do ofcourse appreciate there are exceptions to this.

[BeachRiding]

Those bits are actually pretty common around here. I would never touch one though. Way too severe.

Why do you want this bit?

[showjumper-zoe]

Well I need it to hack out in, I school and jump in a myler comfort snaffle with full cheeck and hooks, she gets strong when jumping but can manage her don't want to put stronger things in her mouth for jumping incase she backs off/dosn't go forward etc. She was actually a man's horse then his daughter competed her and she is much bigger than me (i'm 5'3") then she was another mans horse to jump. I have tried going with a very mild bit - very very dangerous! I've tried 3 ring snaffle, american gag still she gets away from me and is dangerous and my parents arn't happy with me hacking her out (she's strong just on a walk out as she's very excitable canters on the spot when I try to hold her back) have changed her feed for her excitability (on lo cal balancer, low calorie chaff and cortaflex). She is also a very strong willed mare and people I have spoken to say just try stronger bits as she's older and it'll be hard to change her ways - my friend says she's seen nothing like it out hacking.

[horseygirl123]

Good god I'd never pay £200 for a bit :eek:

I'd rather pay to get a professional in and maybe get them to hack her out and school her while out to try and teach her to 'chill' a bit!

Also if she isnt hacked out that often it will be really exciting for her, so she will be harder to hold back, maybe try hacking out with a few 'plods' which might help

first thing tho, is to call a trainer in to work with her and use your money that way ;)

[showjumper-zoe]

I hack her out lots to try and get her to calm down, lately she's been doing hack one day, schooling the next and so on, I've been trying to school her on a hack but I cannot keep her attention and she gets really strong, when I try to take her for a plod she does not plod she never has she jogs and I have tried not giving her anything to pull on but then she's off.

We have thought about getting my sisters trainer to hack her out or watch me hack her out but friends who know my mare say there's no point and I think I agree to an extent as I know her breeders who had her for 17 years and they hacked her out fine as they where stronger and bigger and she couldn't pull the reins out of my hands (i do wear gloves incase she rips my hands) even if the traner can hack her there's no point if i can't hold her - as she gets the reins and puts her head out and I can't get it back in lol (not a tachnical explanition there) I think I'm going to try a standing martingale aswell friend told me to try a market harborough but it wont fit through the american gag. Basically I want it for saftey and have full control over her as Dad said I couldn't hack out.

[Keket]

Gag bits and martingales are counter-productive. Gag bits raise the head, martingales bring it down. Your mare is probably confused and upset, and when horses get confused, they get strong.

Sounds to me like you're making excuses. You don't need strength to hold a horse in. Nobody can pull on a horse hard enough to stop it going forward if it doesn't want to stop; humans just don't have that kind of strength. We're not stronger then horses no matter what we do, so we have to be smarter. The trainer can probably either a) highlight something you're doing wrong or b) show you a different way to manage your mare's naughtiness. Maybe she doesn't get strong while jumping because she's got somthing to think about, but while hacking, she doesn't. If you're showjumping in an enclosed area, she can see a wall and knows she can't run off, because she'll have to turn. On a hack, no wall = YAHOO!!

Try a good trainer, which will cost you maybe a fourth of what that contraption costs.

[showjumper-zoe]

[QUOTE=Keket;1406248]Gag bits and martingales are counter-productive. Gag bits raise the head, martingales bring it down. Your mare is probably confused and upset, and when horses get confused, they get strong.
[QUOTE]

American gags lower the head!

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m222/showjumper-2k6/gag.jpg

She is not confused and upset a gag that raises the head is a cheltenham, duncan & hitchcok so a martingale would contradict that! She Has had her back, teeth and tack all checked and if she was confused she wouldn nott behave the same then in her comfort snaffle but she is the same as in her american gag!

Also I said she did get strong when jumping but nothing like on a hack!

ETA: looked up this bit in a bitting book and it says it's a powerful control instrument that is what I need for my mare who I don't think can be schooled out of it as she is a stubborn 23 year old and will be dangerous to try. The point of this topic was to ask of people's experiences of this bit as I am in two minds weather to purchase the one pictures at the top or a long shank myler with the same mouthpiece as her myler snaffle. Also people laughed at me when I said should I get an instructor to watch me hack her out :S They said it's just her she wants to have fun she also had 2 foals in the past to try to calm her down. But her only problem is hacking, she's fine showjumping, even when she's in season she's leapt around like an idiot in the collecting ring, and I thought I'd never win but then she won the class as she enjoys her jumping. She enjoys hacks but too much I'm going to ask her breeders if she's been hunted before lol also she isn't a fine horse she's a tb X wb
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/lil-lo/echocropedpic.jpg

[showjumper-zoe]

How the bit rubbers could 'protect your horse's mouth' from a contraption like that I have no idea.

So the cheekpieces don't rub the horses face and lips, thats why I use them on my american gag.

[Iron Maiden]

Where did that quote come from? Just because you read something somewhere, doesn't mean it's right. I'd like to see the justification for the assertion that the above bit doesn't act to raise the head. You can't change the laws of physics just by writing a book!

[big-dreams]

Try a good trainer, which will cost you maybe a fourth of what that contraption costs.

Totally agree. I tried a harsher bit on my horse, thinking it would solve the problem, but it just p*ssed him off!


It may seem like an easy way to just stick a crazy looking bit in your horses mouth and hoping for amazing results, but it can backfire just as easily.

[showjumper-zoe]

Where did that quote come from? Just because you read something somewhere, doesn't mean it's right. I'd like to see the justification for the assertion that the above bit doesn't act to raise the head. You can't change the laws of physics just by writing a book!

This one:
http://horsebooksetc.com/images/products/zf40.jpg

The quote came from "the complete book of bits and bitting byt elwyn hartley edwards" says on the front cover the only comprehensive, authoritive, and practical guide to this complex subjext and it's history. An american has long shanks and so the poll presure make the horse drop it's head, I've heard traners and insructors say that american gags and 3 ring snaffles lower the head.:) The american gag does lower her head when she isn't trying to get away from me as i rode her in the school in it.

[showjumper-zoe]

Totally agree. I tried a harsher bit on my horse, thinking it would solve the problem, but it just p*ssed him off!


It may seem like an easy way to just stick a crazy looking bit in your horses mouth and hoping for amazing results, but it can backfire just as easily.

Well have explained about the trainer bit, but stronger bits have worked she is more controllable than in the 3 ring snaffle and a plain snaffle just now when she does get away from me it's very hard to get her back so I though the bit pictured might help or a myler combo that I could get on trial from local tack shop. She didn't get "****ed" off when I put her in a stronger bit she got more managable.

[Iron Maiden]

**********

[ClaireBear_nz]

She's old so she can't be reschooled? Interesting, my mare is over 25 if not 30, never done dressage in her life, very very hyperactive, unable to keep still, canters sideways on hacks...

I schooled like crazy, not for weeks or months but years and now I have a snaffle mouthed horse who is as safe as houses and her jumping improved infinitely. She was labelled dangerous by the local pony club before this.

I'd work on calming her down on hacks, rather than just putting in a harsher bit personally.

[entreat]

Have you considered going to a more gentle bit? or even a hackamore?

My gelding is very very anxious in a bit when we go out on a hack. He jogs, chomps on the bit & tosses his head. He goes sideways & backwards. He spooks and shies, and I wouldn't put it past him to bolt with a rider that didn't know how to read him. He does this in all bits - loose ring french training snaffle, thick-bar eggbut snaffle, rubber mullen mouth, etc...

Then I put him in a rope halter (rope hackamore). Guess what happened?

He lengthens his walk, he doesn't jog, he doesn't head-toss, he moves out beautifully, and I lead beginners trails with him. His trot is not longer on the verge of gallop, but a lovely, even trail-jog (that's how I describe it!). If the beginners horses are getting a bit feisty - they are told to jam their horse up Mouse's bum as now he completly ignores them. And jumping - now he's very relaxed, and jumps higher (60cm - trots over). In a bit, he would knock-down 55cm jumps! I have immaculate streering and great breaks in a rope halter.

I even have my beginner fiance ride him on trails, and a beginner 13yo ride him.

Why not give one a try in the arena at walk and trot for a session or two?

[JULIA G]

Have you tried this?

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Pt6z60r_aegJ:www.peeweebit.com/+pee+wee+bit&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

People are raving about it, horses everywhere are being transformed, looks severe but is in fact a very gentle bit that horses seem to love. www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk and www.shop4bits.com hire them out for 14/30 days for £5. Worth a try, please don't buy that other bit, makes me feel quite sick just looking at it.

[showjumper-zoe]

She's old so she can't be reschooled? Interesting, my mare is over 25 if not 30, never done dressage in her life, very very hyperactive, unable to keep still, canters sideways on hacks...

I schooled like crazy, not for weeks or months but years and now I have a snaffle mouthed horse who is as safe as houses and her jumping improved infinitely. She was labelled dangerous by the local pony club before this.

I'd work on calming her down on hacks, rather than just putting in a harsher bit personally.


She is snaffled mouthed in the school though, I have tried for 3 years to calm her on hacks but she just does not calm down she is naturally fizzy, stronger bits have helped me as she dosn't get away as easilly so she dosn't hyp up as much as if i had a snaffle where she could grab the reins and tank off then she'd be loopy thinking it was great as she could do what she pleased. She's better in her american gag than other bits I've tried I just need a little something extra like the bit i posted.

[showjumper-zoe]

Have you considered going to a more gentle bit? or even a hackamore?

Why not give one a try in the arena at walk and trot for a session or two?

Yeah, I have tried milder that was the first thing I did incase she was resisting the bit, I've been looking at hackamores on ebay and thinking about bidding, problem is she will probably go well in the school as everything I've tried I've schooled her in first before hacking (bit silly if anyone didn't on any horse) out but she's just not the same on a hack. The point of this thread was so I could find out about other people's experiences with the bit i posted, also i've been looking at myler combo's as they work on pressure before the mouthpice comes into play
:)

[showjumper-zoe]

Have you tried this?

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Pt6z60r_aegJ:www.peeweebit.com/+pee+wee+bit&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

People are raving about it, horses everywhere are being transformed, looks severe but is in fact a very gentle bit that horses seem to love. www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk and www.shop4bits.com hire them out for 14/30 days for £5. Worth a try, please don't buy that other bit, makes me feel quite sick just looking at it.


Someone I know uses that on her new horse and she says they are amazing, so I tried to win one in the horse and rider a while ago, I've never seen them in a tack shop to actually buy or in a horsey catalouge, I think I might hire one as it's just trial and error.

[Mossy]

Very expensive and "belt and braces" I would have thought. My choice for a hardpulling hacker, aka Moss, is a Sprenger loose ring correction snaffle. £35 on ebay. Looks most peculiar but it works a treat. Took him drifting, rounding upp the dartie ponies, in it and no control issues at all. Sometimes you need to think laterally not expensively.

[Wally]

Never used one, never will either!

Not for that price!

[Frances]

Would you like one for your birthday, Wally?

You could try it on Ljosfaxi - he would love you for it and obviously go alot better because I had spent all that money!

He bolts on treks - I am off to buy one!

[Wally]

He has indeed been known to err towards that aberration!

I will use it on Ljósfaxi if you test drive Piggy Porker in it first! ;)

I can predict with 100% accuracy what would happen if we put that in either of our horses mouth's! My crystal ball will be 100%. Now, do you suppose it would work with Fákur???? You know all that bother I've had with him all week........... for that price it ought to fix ALL the problems in the Middle East!

[wonkeywoody]

If she canters on the spot etc now, any further 'brakes' will make the situation worse, much worse. Pee Wee bit - dont bother.
Teach yourself the one rein stop. Apart from doing 'what it says on the tin(!)' it also releases a calming endorphine into the brain. She cannot leap, jog, rear, go off etc with this technique.

[coss]

i wouldn't want to use it. there are far too many things going on.

my mare goes very nicely in a hackamore and like your horse used to canter on the spot and could be very strong (i do however trust her and was quite content to wait for her to settle when we were cantering high speed round the field) and i did ride in a hackamore, lots of breaks but it is not a nicey nicey "bit" and i've been informed by a few people that it has the potential to break a horse's jaw. Some horses panic as its sooo powerful and will run through it/bolt etc. i also put my mare in a kinder bit- went from a thick loose ring snaffle to a happy mouth roller. its more mobile and my mare accepts it better. i can also ride her in a headcollar.
it sounds like your horse is getting more collected and not just stopping so a more powerful bit may encourage rears.

[Joyscarer]

I know Parelli isn't too popular with some on here and I practice a mix and match approach.

One of the biggest benefits I found from the Parelli is one I haven't seen mentioned on NR before.

When you do the games and practice the 'rub to a stop' this is so useful out on a hack. Combine this with having taught your horse to flexx and you can use the flex in combination with a relaxing rub to a stop with great affect in a stressful situation. I do this with Joy and she hadn't been hacked out off a farm before let alone hacked out on road SOLO! We now confidently hack solo unless it is garden waste disposal day when the green bags are out to get her :rolleyes: Have worked on that so she is ok with one but still can't deal with 2 together!

Teaching rub to a stop and flexing were the most important tools I had at my disposal when first begin to hack solo so might help you with your problems.

[puzzles]

Mmmmm I agree, I am a great believer that technically you should be able to school a horse out of any habit, given alot of time and patience.....I do ofcourse appreciate there are exceptions to this.

Ditto :p

American gags are very severe, even when used well they are strong stuff :o

"I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, looks very severe - look at those shanks!"

Haha! :-) Well said!

[Afellpony]

If you need such a strong bit to control the horse; do you think it should actually be ridden at all?

[Palomino Mare]

hi,

i havent used this bit and tbh i think it looks a bit scary!!

i do sympathise with you though, my 14.2 has always been in a gag and on the few occasions that we tried her in a mild bit it was a disaster and she didnt school as nicely.

she was fine on the roads however but snaffle mouthed jerry wasnt. i moved yards recently and he's been a wonder on the roads ever since as its all off road - we do have jogging and he flings his bum out if a car waits behind him for too long. i got him a hanging cheek for hacking and he's alot better with that little hint of poll pressure.

i do know some people that just dont hack because their horse doesnt like it - could this be the problem?she just doesnt like it? if shes not doing anything technically wrong and it cant be schooled out of her then maybe the jogging is anxiety and she just wants to be in a school and working? jerry certainly calms down on hacks when i ask him for an outline and practise leg yielding.

if thats not an option then i will think about another option, lol!

[KateWooten]

First off, as an aside, I have to state, I know nothing about bits. I have one, and it seems to work fine for communicating what I want from the horse. BUT - I just have the one. If I want a horse's head to be lower, I ask him to lower his head, and then when he's done it, I stop asking. This is the same if I'm using the bit, the halter, the rope, the absolutely nothing - anything at all - same method - ask, receive, stop asking. If I want him to raise his head, I ask him, and then he's done it, I stop asking.

I don't know how a particular bit could ALWAYS ask a horse to lower its head ... or ALWAYS ask him to raise it. To me, a bit that can only ever ask one question is a piece of crap.

Now, to the point - why on earth does this mare not want to listen to you ? Something's wrong there. I'd work on that if I were you.

Secondly - if you've tried something for 23 years, and it's not working, here's my suggestion : Stop doing it.

All you're doing is trying to stick a stronger bit in its mouth - and it still has no intention of listening to you. It couldn't care less about your wishes, it just wants to do what it wants, and it's an all-out battle between the two of you.

That's where your problem is.

[coss]

All you're doing is trying to stick a stronger bit in its mouth - and it still has no intention of listening to you. It couldn't care less about your wishes, it just wants to do what it wants, and it's an all-out battle between the two of you.

That's where your problem is.

well said

[Spiggly]

saw a bit on www.sustainabledressage.net once. loosering chainsaw.

why not just stick one of those in its gob? will be much cheaper than that monstrosity (which will have the effect of raising the head, despite one book saying it will not). as willielove said, they are common over there, but then it is a western bit, and therefroe i imagine is used for neck reining, never direct reining.

however, at the end of the day it is a matter of your control over the horse. go spend a fortune and wreck your horses mouth. chamnces are, hacking with that thing in ashe will respect the snaffle you jump in less and less as her mouth is permanently damaged, and you will end up jumping in the thing too in a few months.

let us know how it ends wont you?

[Denbenj]

I dont think a £200 bit will still stop your horse, by the sounds of it... If it wants to go it will... and the same with any horse.... if it really wants to sod of with you.. nothing will stop it! :o

I know some bits do have there means and uses... I think tho when they get to extremes like that one then you have to take a step back and really think about what your doing.

I also think the price is ridicoulous!!! :eek:

[caznemmanryan]

?? Sometimes the problem with putting a stronger bit in, is that the horse then either locks all it's muscles up on you, and decides to run through you hands anyway (fight/flight kicks in), or you can hold then, put then they really prancy and start threatening to rear, especially if you don't keep your legs on.

When we had a horse like this, we ended up putting her in a Doctor Bristol, but with a kineton noseband - she pulled, it put pressure on, she stopped, it stopped, no galloping through, no going '@@#! you I'm off (which was a common feature on the endurance rides - and really pants when you are trying to crew or vet!), and no rearing.

And it didn't take her long to then chill out completely, and start going up the grades!

It may be worth a try...and it's a lot cheaper!!

Good luck

[rtk]

Well I have every sympathy for you. I have no idea whether this bit will work or how it works or how severe it is, so dont want to comment on that.

What I would say is that schooling isn't always a solution, neither is Parelli or anything else.

My oldie cob is the gentlest creature imaginable at home, in the school or field. I can ride happily in a rubber snaffle, Parelli headcollar, ordinary headcollar, in fact just about anything.

But even after 25 years together I wont hack him in anything but a Pelham. He's a brilliant hack, doesn't spook will go past anything and 99% of the time I can ride on the buckle ends. BUT every now and again, even in his 30's he will just go (for no reason I can see) and there isn't a lot I can do about it.

The only thing which gives me any control at all when he does this is to drop the snaffle rein and just use the curb. Harsh I know but it means I can at least slow him down and sometimes even turn him. Yes it makes him canter on the spot and leap in the air but anything is better than flat out gallop somewhere inappropriate.

No help to you at all but I do understand your problem, hope you manage to sort something out.

[KateWooten]

he will just go (for no reason I can see) and there isn't a lot I can do about it.


There is not a lot you can do about it ?

Have you tried my solution ?

I have tried it, and it has worked every time.

The horse no longer bolts.

The horse no longer wants to bolt.

The solution is there, for free. Perhaps you just haven't tried it.

[showjumper-zoe]

If you need such a strong bit to control the horse; do you think it should actually be ridden at all?

She only needs it for hacking, I think she should be ridden as I enjoy riding her, we have achieved lots together when we went out jumping every week we were never out of the top 3 placing also this year I have only had firsts on her she's a great mare she has taught me allot as she has experience as she did 1.20 tracks with her previous owners and I lernt to ride on her.

It is no the fact she does not like hacks I think she enjoys hacks as much as she likes jumping just in open spaces she becomes excited, my mam has suggested a calmer for her. I have been hacking her in the american gag for a few months now and she dosn't need it for jumping (my mam did think she would but she's schooled on the flat in her comfort snaffle)

Thanks HanGbbn for you're pm, trying the myler combo as she likes mylers and I do as it's kinder way of communicating with the horse then if that does not help the KK corection. I took her onto the showfield in her american gag a few days ago and at the bottom I did some schooling out hacking she calmed there as I got her doing 20m circles, serpintines, figure of 8's, lots of transitions etc so I could keep her attention on listening to me, took her back there not last night, night before (her hacking night) as it is a fenced field and schooled again in the same place and repeated what we did last time, she was quite calm I was pleased, I collected her canter and took her out of my imaginary arena on the field lol and cantered over a log then the tyre jump she was good, did get stronger but not as bad as she normaly is. So she's better on the field now where I take her for a canter and jump the tiny logs lol so when she goes hacking off the estate hoping the combo will help us. Also to add as I didn't say in previous posts that she is totally fine on roads it's mainley on grass when she's excited.

[Mossy]

Why not try the KK first? An awful lot cheaper and it might just work. It restores discipline to an enthusiatic Highland.

[showjumper-zoe]

Why not try the KK first? An awful lot cheaper and it might just work. It restores discipline to an enthusiatic Highland.

Beacause I like the way it works on pressure before the mouthpiece works.

[anna15]

why is almost everyone insisting that this girl doesnt need a strong bit? ive seen alot of top international level riders using this bit, does that mean that they havnt attempted to get rid of their horses habit? come on, they are almost schooled to the max, and if they still need a bit like that it proves my point. if the girl needs a strong bit for her horse then she needs a strong bit, not necesserily to force a horse and overpower it into doing what she wants, but to strengthen the communication between them.
:)
oh and what over bits have you tried, i used to use a gag for my pony but it didnt do the job, so i tried a straight bar pelham and she reacts better to a curb than lots of leverage.

[Wally]

strengthen the communication between them.


???? communication can be done in a whisper! ;) ;)

But being shouted at for years usually destroys the ability to hear the whisper!

[Mossy]

why is almost everyone insisting that this girl doesnt need a strong bit? ive seen alot of top international level riders using this bit, does that mean that they havnt attempted to get rid of their horses habit? come on, they are almost schooled to the max, and if they still need a bit like that it proves my point. if the girl needs a strong bit for her horse then she needs a strong bit, not necesserily to force a horse and overpower it into doing what she wants, but to strengthen the communication between them.
:)
oh and what over bits have you tried, i used to use a gag for my pony but it didnt do the job, so i tried a straight bar pelham and she reacts better to a curb than lots of leverage.

The major action of a curb is controlled leverage!!!!!!!:confused:combined with poll and curb pressure

[anna15]

a gag would only use poll pressure, it raises the head bylifting the bit against the corners of the mouth. a pelham works in a completely different way, great pressure can be exerted on the bars of the mouth as well as through the curb strap and on the poll area, either way it worked for me.

[anna15]

???? communication can be done in a whisper! ;) ;)

But being shouted at for years usually destroys the ability to hear the whisper!

i understand that, and yes my pony was ruined by years of being shouted at as a baby, and in some cases you can fix it.

you cant blame every riding issue on pain or poor riding, some times your horse just gets over excited and thinks it knows the best way to do everything eg. going too fast for comfort!

i just hate the way that people jump to conclusions, shes using strong bits so shes an evil horse owner who just wants a quik fix!

its like you see a child with its mum absolutely screaming demanding some sweets in a shop, you wouldnt turn round and say you evil b**ch that child is clearly starving!:p

a horse sometimes fights you because he wants to run, maybe hes just cheeky, not that he has a bad rider.

[Mossy]

a gag would only use poll pressure, it raises the head bylifting the bit against the corners of the mouth. a pelham works in a completely different way, great pressure can be exerted on the bars of the mouth as well as through the curb strap and on the poll area, either way it worked for me.

A gag will raise the head, but I don't think you mean a gag. I think you mean a multiring snaffle which works, on the lower rings, to lower the head using poll pressure. You will NEVER raise ahead using poll pressure. I don't want to "exert great pressure" thankyou, and God help anyone else who did on any horse of mine. Sorry but if I say much more on the subject I am liable, for the first time in eight years, to be moderated!

[rtk]

There is not a lot you can do about it ?

Have you tried my solution ?

I have tried it, and it has worked every time.

The horse no longer bolts.

The horse no longer wants to bolt.

The solution is there, for free. Perhaps you just haven't tried it.



First off, as an aside, I have to state, I know nothing about bits. I have one, and it seems to work fine for communicating what I want from the horse. BUT - I just have the one. If I want a horse's head to be lower, I ask him to lower his head, and then when he's done it, I stop asking. This is the same if I'm using the bit, the halter, the rope, the absolutely nothing - anything at all - same method - ask, receive, stop asking. If I want him to raise his head, I ask him, and then he's done it, I stop asking.

I don't know how a particular bit could ALWAYS ask a horse to lower its head ... or ALWAYS ask him to raise it. To me, a bit that can only ever ask one question is a piece of crap.

Now, to the point - why on earth does this mare not want to listen to you ? Something's wrong there. I'd work on that if I were you.

Secondly - if you've tried something for 23 years, and it's not working, here's my suggestion : Stop doing it.

All you're doing is trying to stick a stronger bit in its mouth - and it still has no intention of listening to you. It couldn't care less about your wishes, it just wants to do what it wants, and it's an all-out battle between the two of you.

That's where your problem is.




Bit of a loss really. Cant see any advice which would stop me needing brakes on a 600k cob belting across the moors.

Oh and my problem is that he can be a total sh*thead who thinks its funny to scare me every now and again

If anyone thinks my poor old lad is hard done by, this is the horse which will have a full clip loose in the yard, doesn't need a headcollar to lead, picks his feet up when you say foot and is better trained than most dogs.

[Iron Maiden]

ive seen alot of top international level riders using this bit, does that mean that they havnt attempted to get rid of their horses habit? come on, they are almost schooled to the max, and if they still need a bit like that it proves my point.

So are you saying that because top international level riders use something, it's automatically OK?

I think they may be slightly better riders than the likes of us.

They are competing for their livelihoods, so the ends may well justify the means for them - I don't think the stakes are quite so high in this case.

This is precisely why I dislike the gadgets that some showjumpers use - IMO they are setting a cr*p example to the kids who aspire to be like them. That bit has the potential to cause a horse a hell of a lot of pain. Call me a bleeding heart liberal but I would prefer to see the root cause of the problem addressed, rather than the symptom papered over using a foul contraption like that. If the 'top international showjumpers' are sending out a message that says it's OK to just whack on a gadget if your horse is strong - frankly that sucks.

[horse__obsessed]

so its okfor them to use it but not ok for us to use it because we arent competing for a living?

[Iron Maiden]

so its okfor them to use it but not ok for us to use it because we arent competing for a living?

I don't think it's OK period. I suspect it may be why it's done. I wouldn't compare my ability to use a severe bit with that of an international level rider though. Why, would you?

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

well said

v v true.

to get a horse to lower its head, dont resort to violence, cos thats what i think that putting in a bit like that is.

the horse will just fight back - & lets face it NO-ONE is physically capable of wrestling a horse, but thats what you would be doing, only with aids.

to get a horse to lower its head you need to school it - properly, im not suggesting that you don't already, mind.


and btw gags do lower a horses head (cant remember who sed that now:rolleyes:lol) cos my friend rides hers in a dutch gag & it basically brings the horses head in when you need to.(her horse get bullheaded)

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

I don't think it's OK period. I suspect it may be why it's done. I wouldn't compare my ability to use a severe bit with that of an international level rider though. Why, would you?

i have no idea:confused:

thats because there isnt a reason

[Pink's lady]

so its okfor them to use it but not ok for us to use it because we arent competing for a living?

No, it's ok for them to use them (or is it? is putting a load if metal in a horses mouth cos you can't get them to listen otherwise, right?) becasue they know what they are doing. They have the skill, knowledge and experience to use such severe equipment properly.

Showjumper-zoe - the problem your going to have eventually is your mare will pretty soon learn to ignore that bit too, and then what? A chain saw bit? Strong, fizzy horses that are prone to fizzing on the spot (i.e canters on the spot) tend to also have the potential to explode. If she has no option of going forwards because her mouth hurts so much, her excitment has to go SOMEWHERE. And that somewhere is usually upwards.

If you've already tried a three ring snaffle and a dutch gag to no effect, putting more metal in her mouth isn't going to achieve much. She's willing to ignore the not inconsiderable pain those bits casue her mouth, she's going to ignore pretty much everything else.

Which doesn't really leave you with any option really other than trying to stop her WANTING to charge off.

You say she's fine in the school, which means that hacking is either hugely exciting for her or very stressful for her. Both of those you can overcome. If it's exciting, lots and lots of practise (in hand, with calm company etc) one short, boring walks, building up will help. The same pretty much applies to strssful too.

It sounds much more like a training issue, not a bitting problem.

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

i understand that, and yes my pony was ruined by years of being shouted at as a baby, and in some cases you can fix it.

you cant blame every riding issue on pain or poor riding, some times your horse just gets over excited and thinks it knows the best way to do everything eg. going too fast for comfort!

i just hate the way that people jump to conclusions, shes using strong bits so shes an evil horse owner who just wants a quik fix!

its like you see a child with its mum absolutely screaming demanding some sweets in a shop, you wouldnt turn round and say you evil b**ch that child is clearly starving!:p

a horse sometimes fights you because he wants to run, maybe hes just cheeky, not that he has a bad rider.

agreed lol

[Iron Maiden]

Maybe the horse is agorophobic. Have known it in ex-SJers. If that's what underlies her behaviour, no amount of hardware will cure her.

[showjumper-zoe]

Maybe the horse is agorophobic. Have known it in ex-SJers. If that's what underlies her behaviour, no amount of hardware will cure her.

Do you mean agoraphobic? If you do she's not the nervous/anxious type as one of our geldings is like that he lives on his nerves.

[anna15]

So are you saying that because top international level riders use something, it's automatically OK?

I think they may be slightly better riders than the likes of us.

They are competing for their livelihoods, so the ends may well justify the means for them - I don't think the stakes are quite so high in this case.

This is precisely why I dislike the gadgets that some showjumpers use - IMO they are setting a cr*p example to the kids who aspire to be like them. That bit has the potential to cause a horse a hell of a lot of pain. Call me a bleeding heart liberal but I would prefer to see the root cause of the problem addressed, rather than the symptom papered over using a foul contraption like that. If the 'top international showjumpers' are sending out a message that says it's OK to just whack on a gadget if your horse is strong - frankly that sucks.
I dont think that at all, i just think that just because a horse trys to get its own way some times, it doesnt mean there is a problem behind it. The example i was making is that these are some of the best riders in the world, who school their horses an awfull lot, most dont even do any jumping at home, if just schooling was the answer to every problem would they not all be riding in snaffles? what im trying to say is schooling helps, but its not the answer to every problem. every horse needs something different, some need a strong bit for their own good, some can be ridden the NH way with none at all, but there is no such thing as a cure that works for all horses.

the idea of the strong bit in my ponys mouth is that i may half halt her to ask her to slow down a little, she might think ha i dont think so and wack her head in the air to avoid the bit, then she feels pressure on her and thinks oo thats abit uncomfortable, maybe her way is easier.

[Iron Maiden]

I dont think that at all, i just think that just because a horse trys to get its own way some times, it doesnt mean there is a problem behind it. The example i was making is that these are some of the best riders in the world, who school their horses an awfull lot, most dont even do any jumping at home, if just schooling was the answer to every problem would they not all be riding in snaffles? what im trying to say is schooling helps, but its not the answer to every problem. every horse needs something different, some need a strong bit for their own good, some can be ridden the NH way with none at all, but there is no such thing as a cure that works for all horses.

the idea of the strong bit in my ponys mouth is that i may half halt her to ask her to slow down a little, she might think ha i dont think so and wack her head in the air to avoid the bit, then she feels pressure on her and thinks oo thats abit uncomfortable, maybe her way is easier.

I doubt that she would think 'oo that's abit uncomfortable' in the above bit. More like 'that's agony'. That is the point. We will have to agree to differ on this one.

[anna15]

i dont think 'agony' is the word when using a pelham, im not arguing about the bit posted about as ive never used it or looked into it, im arguing about the fact people think that schooling answers all problems, and stronger bits are not necessary.

have you used the bit posted yourself? do you know that it causes agony to a horse? if yes then i will accept your argument.

[antonia :)]

Well personally that bit looks quite fierce and i would never go near one if i had a horse. try to do some groundwork and schooling to show your horse whos boss and that she should listen to you and not get her own way. Because at the moment it seems as though she i taking you for granted. Putting a hench contraption in her mouth wont solve anything. It could even make the situation worse. I am not saying schooling is the way around it and stronger bits aren't not necessary but im trying to say if you varied what you did then maybe it could work. It would be more worthwhile if you got a trainer to come in at half the price of that bit and get professional help than spend that amount of money on somehting that in the long-run might not work and could potentially hurt a horse. Try training her in the bit you've got now and gradually go sown to something thats soft in her mouth. Shes taking you for a loser and you shouldnt have to put up with it. In the end all the hard work and training will pay off and you will have great hacks.

[anna15]

has anybody even asked zoe whether she has tried just about everything, and wants to see if a change in bit could make any difference?
everyone seems to have just made the assumption that zoe hasnt been doing groundwork/ gridwork ect. :o

[Iron Maiden]

i dont think 'agony' is the word when using a pelham, im not arguing about the bit posted about as ive never used it or looked into it, im arguing about the fact people think that schooling answers all problems, and stronger bits are not necessary.

have you used the bit posted yourself? do you know that it causes agony to a horse? if yes then i will accept your argument.

I understand the laws of physics and that horses have a nervous system.

[anna15]

bits only cause agony when used incorrectly yes, fair enough if you yanked your horse in the mouth yes, its gonna hurt him, but an experienced rider with good hands will simply apply pressure. im pretty sure if you were to cause any horse 'agony' they would have you off.

[antonia :)]

Did i make a valid point? I think we shouldnt stress out over each others opinions now as i dont want this to be an argument :)

[Mossy]

"and btw gags do lower a horses head (cant remember who sed that nowlol) cos my friend rides hers in a dutch gag & it basically brings the horses head in when you need to.(her horse get bullheaded)"

We are talking correct terminology here. A "Dutch gag" is not a gag. It is a multiring snaffle. A true gag bit has running cheeks which pass through the bit rings. This bit will raise the head. A multiring snaffle can, depending on the ring used lower it.

[KateWooten]

Well, ummm... I for one wasn'thaving a go at her for wanting to use a harsh bit ... I just don't see why, if I had a better method - one that always works to actually CURE the horse, in the sense of changing their thinking around so that they no loner want to ignore their rider, no longer want to pull and prance etc ... why would I not want to share that ? It's really suprising to anyone who's looked at any of the western training, to hear of people wanting to use strong bits for control ! Strong bits are for refinement !! Lateral pressure is for control. Simply pulling back, directly against the horse, is a pulling battle and always will be. It's just a matter of using sufficient leverage on the puny rider's strength to overcome the horse. Is that what people want ? To win against the horse ? Why, when you can simply solve the problem, would you not want to do that ?

[rtk]

Did i make a valid point? I think we shouldnt stress out over each others opinions now as i dont want this to be an argument :)

Why on earth not :D wouldn't these forums be boring without the odd argument. Nothing worse than 'I agree' all the time :D

[horse__obsessed]

Well personally that bit looks quite fierce and i would never go near one if i had a horse. try to do some groundwork and schooling to show your horse whos boss and that she should listen to you and not get her own way. Because at the moment it seems as though she i taking you for granted. Putting a hench contraption in her mouth wont solve anything. It could even make the situation worse. I am not saying schooling is the way around it and stronger bits aren't not necessary but im trying to say if you varied what you did then maybe it could work. It would be more worthwhile if you got a trainer to come in at half the price of that bit and get professional help than spend that amount of money on somehting that in the long-run might not work and could potentially hurt a horse. Try training her in the bit you've got now and gradually go sown to something thats soft in her mouth. Shes taking you for a loser and you shouldnt have to put up with it. In the end all the hard work and training will pay off and you will have great hacks.

zoe has already said her horse is fine schooling and jumping, its only hacking in open spaces which is the problem, and I for one find i hard ot school out hacking when I cant hold my horse

[Kady A]

I bet you are beginning to wish you hadn't asked for an opinion! ;) It does look EXTREMELY harsh, but what gets me is the price ... we sell Sprenger bits and it never ceases to amaze me how much people will pay! Its the kind of bit you see out on the showjumping circuit, it seems to be quite "in vogue" at the moment ... that and Liverpool driving bits on 13hh affiliated ponies :eek:

I can very much appreciate the problems you are having ... been there. I had a 15.2 11 year old cob mare on loan a few years ago, she was driven for several years before being backed to ride. She was very nappy and strong beyond belief when hacking - snaffle mouthed for schooling/flatwork and jumping. Once she got that bit between her teeth there was absolute no stopping her - even in walk. I turned her into an 8 foot high hedge once in attempt to stop her walking home ... she walked straight through it, with me dragging and scraping with her. We tried absolutely everything. In the end it was the Vulcanite Pelham that worked for her and she was a reformed character.

I can so appreciate the pleasures of a the "more mature" horse, as I have the 29 year old Stella who has been a bitting nightmare herself but I would rather never hack my horse out than have to consider using something as extreme as this.

I would certainly get your horse's teeth and mouth looked at, and maybe explore a few different avenues before taking the megabit route!

Good luck!

[Alex T]

my horse is in a hard rubber pelham, he also is an ex driving pony and ive tried every kind of snaffle,gag etc he hates all of them but loves his pelham. to him a snaffle is harsh he just hates the action same with my mare although she is arab and has a small mouth i have her in a myler comfort snaffle but ultimatly she goes best in a pelham on the top rein!
at the end of the day you have to listen to what the horse likes there are alot of prejudices in the horse world about stronger bits and yes in the wrong hands they can be bad of course but still not al horses will like the shape of the snaffle!!

[antonia :)]

zoe has already said her horse is fine schooling and jumping, its only hacking in open spaces which is the problem, and I for one find i hard ot school out hacking when I cant hold my horse

Yeah but i was suggesting that it can also help schooling aswell. We had a pony like that at my yard and we did put a stronger bit in and schooled her 2 not take advantage of the rider.

[boe]

just because shes 23 doesnt mean she still cant learn, my horse is 23 and is learning all the time with me, change of rider and owner and the way of going with a new owner is a big learning curve on its own, my horse frightened the life out of me when i first started hacking him out on his own, jog jog all the way and is very strong, i tried a stronger bit but a pellham nothing has severe as the one you want to try, i eventually went back to the school in his old bit which is a happy mouth habging cheek and things are wonderful, no more jogging, he still gets excited and feels more like a 10 yr old but we worked through it and gained respect for each other, sometimes a horse will fight even more against anything more severe which defeats the object, i would dfinitely think twice before you spend a ridiculous amount of money on this bit, and if your parents are concerned about your safety with this horse then changing bits is not the answer.

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

"and btw gags do lower a horses head (cant remember who sed that nowlol) cos my friend rides hers in a dutch gag & it basically brings the horses head in when you need to.(her horse get bullheaded)"

We are talking correct terminology here. A "Dutch gag" is not a gag. It is a multiring snaffle. A true gag bit has running cheeks which pass through the bit rings. This bit will raise the head. A multiring snaffle can, depending on the ring used lower it.

o right.. sorry:rolleyes:

[KateWooten]

Simply pulling back directly against the horse, is a pulling battle and always will be. Is that what people want ? To win against the horse ?

Why, when you can simply solve the problem, would you not want to do that ?

[casey]

I am going to give my two penneth worth about your situation.:)

Firstly, unfortunately ALOT of horses bred for competition aren't schooled to hack. That is a fact and normally, people that buy comp. horses just to compete on have no interest in hacking. Resulting in situations like you have, ie buying a horse, want to do everything on and realising you cant.

I have had horses like this, and frankly a stronger bit isn't the answer. I am not saying that because I want to get on the 'stronger bit bandwagon':p But you cannot change a horses mindset by using a stronger bit. Infact you are more likely to send it up, ie rear, because it cant go forward.

My horses that wouldn't walk, (jog, bounce or plunge) I just sat to them and basically let them get on with it. If they were too dangerous on the roads, they wouldn't go on the roads full stop. The best thing you can do for this situation is not get dragged into a fight. Either sit really quiet and dont get involved in the sh!t or get off and do something else. Not all horses can be retrained, and it would be niave to think they can. So IMO you have to find a solution other than just bitting.:)

[jaydevon]

zoe.. i have a horse that is a bit like yrs his very sensitve in the mouth but really strong can school in a snaffle but would never dream of hacking out in one... may i try a slotted ported mouth kimblewick? if the curb is too much replace it with an elastic one... having the rein on the top slot gives u more curb action having it on the lower gives you more poll action.

[jaydevon]

ohps... post reads wrong, it should read may i suggest trying.... not may i try!! doh...