Feeling Frustrated

[Elvengirl]

Can someone please suggest things I can do to muscle up a horses topline?

I am feeling completely disheartened with the lack of muscling that's happening in a horse I lease. He was looking like he was improving but now I feel like it looks worse?!! :confused:

My routine is usually 2 days of flat-work and 1 day jumping (the young girl that owns him hacks him 2 days a week but just plods around really)

during my flat-work days I usually do this in consecutive order more or less

1)Walking forward and asking for different lengths of frame

2)set of transitions from working trot/medium trot/collected trot, trot to halt and halt to trot, until responsive and light, I'll also ask for change of direction in half-pirouette in the collected trot if he's leaning on me.

3)shoulder-in both directions, followed by travers/renvers in both directions, more so going to the left as he is less responsive on this side for lateral work. I do this until I get good results. Move on to leg yield away and to the wall and across the arena, also from the center line and quarter line. All lateral work I do in regular working trot in a medium outline, so stretching down and through, but not long and low nor up and collected. I give him breaks of medium trot stretching low between changes of rein. I use a mirror along the side to adjust outline and mirrors at the ends of the long side to adjust tracks.

4) Circles of varying sizes, but I usually do this throughout my flat-work as it seems to help him listen to me and balance up if he's getting strung out or bored.

5)Canter consists of halt to canter, canter to halt transitions to start and get him off his front and then some leg-yielding both directions, 3-loop serpentines if I have the room and large 20m circles. Sometimes spiral-in circles as well, both directions. Halt to counter canter and 20m circles in counter-canter both ways, change of rein across the diagonal in counter canter.

6) cool down consists of long and low trot which is where I am really unhappy with the results. I try hard to encourage him to stretch down and forward and lift his back but there is something I'm doing wrong because the most he will give me is a hunter-type frame but I want him to really stretch his nose right down and lift his abdomen and get that topline working. How can I do this?

Any tips anyone can offer, some excersize I'm missing. I get instruction but I'm a jumper so my dressage influence at my yard is seriously lacking :( He is happy to do what I ask and does try and evade sometimes but for the most part generally seems to enjoy the challenge and we have very few arguments.

He's an older horse, does this have any influence on his ability to strengthen his topline? He has great conformation, moves well and always pins in flat classes with the young lady who owns him since I started working with him. I don't know his whole flat history but I do know that up until I started working with him a year ago he hadn't been asked for anything but w/t/c in no outline whatsoever in over a year and was completely on the forehand and dull to leg. Those who have been at the yard a long time say they have never seem him look so good which is nice to hear!! :)

here's some video that was taken in August, to give you some idea of the two of us, I posted it before in regards to a thread about teaching half-pass and some suggestions I got before were more impulsion in the collected trot and tracking up in the shoulder-in, which I have been working on since August and it has improved. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMwHBkKYPsI

I just would like to see more muscle development and I just am not seeing it. Thanks for reading my essay and helping if you reply :)

[FreedomStar]

It's nice to hear that you've brought him on really well :) To me it sounds like you're doing it the right way, but it might be the routine of things that's not developing him. What you did to get him this far has worked, but now he's gotten to where you want him to, you need to do something more to keep building. (when a person starts working out, they don't just stick to lifting 10 lb weights, he needs to lift heavier and heavier weights) Try changing your routine and take him out on trails if you have access, or add poles/cavaletti to your flat routine.

With the stretching, you have to be really persistent. I would suggest spending one entire ride getting him to stretch. Start at the walk, and ask for the stretch and release immediately when he gives it to you. Don't move up to a trot until he can stretch consistently when you ask him. Say half a lap around the gigantic arena. And then don't collect your reins, see if you can move him into the trot in this stretched frame. If he picks his head up then go right back to walk and ask for the stretch again, and then try again. It's not all going to happen in one day; this is something you really need to do warming up, as it will get him to stretch through his topline and his back.

You did mention that he is an old horse. Is it possible that he is physically unable to stretch? How are his back legs and hocks? I learned from my trainer that when a horse stretches like that the horse is stretching out the topline, through the back, across the hindquarters, and stretches the back legs. It's like this: Stand up straight and then reach over and try to touch your toes. You're stretching our your back but you also feel the pull through your legs, right? So if he has issues with his legs then it's better to not ask him to stretch long and low.

ETA: I don't have any dressage training but this is how I worked with Ebony to get her to stretch her nose all the way to the ground. It's just persistence and releasing and asking at the right moment.

[Elvengirl]

Thanks so much for the advise.

I forgot to add we also do pole work, usually canter poles in sets of three, but I'll try and do more trot poles.

I will try and be more persistent, I have only really been asking at the end of the ride at the trot and only for a little bit, but I'll make sure that I make this more of a priority, hopefully that will work.

I am pretty sure he is pain free, being an older gentleman he does receive daily doses of Corta-Flex Hyaluronic Acid powder in his grain to help with his joints, but he has no history of lameness to my knowledge and is a pretty easy keeper, not stiff or prone to injury/lameness. He is also the type of horse that if I asked him something that really hurt he would let me know. I'll keep that in mind, of course, when being more persistent if he still isn't responding.

Thanks! :)

[GraceT]

Hi

The only thing I notice which you could work on, beacuse to be honest it all sounds like you are doing the right thing, and I notice this from the video, is getting him to work more through from behind and really stretching down.
If you work him with more impulsion he will naturally come through his back and hopefully stretch his neck down into the contact a bit more thus developing his topline.
For example try and do lots of free walk on a long rein across the diagonal and extended walk perhaps? Also lots of walking and trotting over poles.
He is lovley though and it all looks good so far :)

[GemmaA]

Do you have any flat instruction with him?

Your clue here is that you struggle to get him to stretch at the end, in the cool down period - stretching and a horse reaching forward, down and out into the contact is a sign of the previous work being correct. So I would try and get some really good eyes on the ground to have a look. If the work is correct and right for his stage of training, he definately should be building topline.
Having had a quick look at the video, in your lengthening and shortening, your tempo changes quite a lot - it should stay the same regardless of the length of stride, suggesting that he needs to learn to sit more. However, to learn to sit, he has to be correctly supple over his back.

[Elvengirl]

I have instruction on the flat but it's basic w/t/c and working on my position, so it is lacking especially in lateral work. Through my trainer on the ground I do know he is working properly in all basic work.

I was more persistent this past weekend with asking him to stretch and I had great results. In walk he was stretching right down with his nose just below knee level but still coming nicely forward and lifting, I was impressed!! He responded really well to me saying "good boy" when he would reach down for the contact and by the end was just loving stretching out. I don't think he's ever been asked to do this, or if he has, it was many years ago. The trot was still inconsistent, he would stay long and low into the transition, but would usually come out of the frame after a few minutes, so I would just ask him to walk and stretch out again. It got better though so I'm hopeful for the future.

GemmaA: Thanks for the good advice, he had been building topline but now it seems to have reached a plateau, but it is not as strong/supple as his conformation should allow it to be. I have been working a lot on keeping the pace the same, especially when asking for collection, as he was really slowing down and not lifting. I know that a horse should be willing to stretch out when he has been working properly through the topline which is why I was worried about what I was doing wrong because a)he wasn't willing to stretch and b) I was seeing little to no improvement. The responses I got from him yesturday were so much better than what I expected, and I think he was unsure if he should "relax" (he's a bit uptight :rolleyes:) Now that he has figured out that he can relax, I'm hoping to start seeing more development. :)

[Dancinglite]

Hi

really stretching down.
If you work him with more impulsion he will naturally come through his back and hopefully stretch his neck down into the contact a bit more thus developing his topline.



That is the hammer on the nail.

[GraceT]

That is the hammer on the nail.

Hi do you mean i'm right as in 'hit the nail on the head' or not?

[Dancinglite]

Hi do you mean i'm right as in 'hit the nail on the head' ?


You bet. The topline cannot be used/enhanced without it being stretched.

[casey]

That is the hammer on the nail.

Have you logged on to the right forum?..This is NR love, not B&Q.

[Dancinglite]

Have you logged on to the right forum?..This is NR love, not B&Q.


I thought it was the dressage forum. I know so very little information I can give to help but I try to be supportive.

So sorry I posted on your thread, there is a furniture forum I can go and visit.

[GraceT]

I posted some smiley faces but they didnt come up-very funny Casey

[Gruntfuttock]

Have you logged on to the right forum?..This is NR love, not B&Q.

Damn it, casey, I just snorted coffee out of my nose and it HURTS !

[Dancinglite]

Damn it, casey, I just snorted coffee out of my nose and it HURTS !

You know most of what is said or rather HOW it is said by the Brits is side splitting mock worthy over here also.

You guys really do talk funny.

[casey]

You know most of what is said or rather HOW it is said by the Brits is side splitting mock worthy over here also.

You guys really do talk funny.

Thank you.:) We aim to please.

[Elvengirl]

Was hacking with the resident vet the other night and she was commenting on how well he is doing, really using his hind-end nicely and she said his quality of canter has improved so much. (he had a horrible canter when I first started riding him, we called it a tranter as it was four beated and just gross)

I mentioned my concerns about his topline and she said that it may be because he spent most of his life as a stallion and probably spent his life compensating for having a shorter neck that was heavy. He is still fairly cresty even though he's been a gelding now for a few years, does this sound like it would make it more of a challenge?

She basically said I just have to work with what I've got and persevere.

His stretching excersizes are going really well, we have even trotted long and low 2 times around a 20m circle without him coming up. It feels quite funny as his back is now pushing right up into me seat and his trot is swingy.

[GraceT]

His stretching excersizes are going really well, we have even trotted long and low 2 times around a 20m circle without him coming up. It feels quite funny as his back is now pushing right up into me seat and his trot is swingy.

This is great news, if the trot is feeling like its swinging more you are on the right track! I still lunge once or twice a week to aid my boy with this.

[Ginger Thing]

His stretching excersizes are going really well, we have even trotted long and low 2 times around a 20m circle without him coming up. It feels quite funny as his back is now pushing right up into me seat and his trot is swingy.

I do this a lot with one of mine, we call it 'free trot on a long rein' :) I have really struggled to get weight and topline on him (he likes to hold his head 'pretty' but not use his bum and tries to get away with as little effort as possible, lazy thing!) and he also gets very 'locked' at the withers - stretching really helps.

[bitsnpieces]

sounds like you're doing everything right! echo the allowing to stretch though. My sister's TB is benefitting from Bailey's top line cubes as she wasn't building the muscle although doing the work, it has just enough in it to start them filling out!

[coss]

sounds like there is a lot right with what you are doing. i wouldn't have said the stallion thing is anything to do with it but that is just my opinion ;)

one thing that will help with the rhythm in your collected paces is to use shoulder in to collect (not all the time obviously). for a horse to do shoulder in, the back end must engage more and the horse has to collect slightly. rather than doing medium trot to collected like you seemed to be doing in the video you could try medium trot to shoulder in. i wouldn't ask for as much medium trot as it starts off well and then the rhythm quickens (showing lack of balance). ride a few strides (so it will feel like you are going back a few stages) of medium trot and then take up shoulder in position and hopefully your horse will take up shoulder in and collect himself to achieve it. this will add lightness to the "collect" aid and you will be able to use your seat more for it.
another good exercise to get the back end working and so the horse wants to stretch more is to work on a 20m circle and on that circle do shoulder in, shoulder out, travers and renver (haunches in and out). Take your time with the exercise. you are packing a lot into your schooling session (no harm in that, i do it to ;)) and it will probably do you both justice to do a few sessions with less packed in and to fully concentrate on only a few things. Going back to basics (for 1 or 2 rides only) is sometimes very beneficial. Maybe start of in walk on a 20m circle with changes of rein, encouraging long and low. Do some spirals and gradually pick up the contact (a great exercise done in walk which really improves the canter :)) spiral in to as small a circle as you can manage and leg yield out ensuring you get a good cross over. do not move on until you are satisfied you have got a good cross over everytime you ask for a step sideways.
then you can move back onto a 20m circle and do some flexions to make sure you can just ask for slight flexion of the head in and out of the circle but maintaining the circle. from there you can do some shoulder in (quarter of the circle) and straighten. do some shoulder out (quarter of a circle). same with haunches in and out. always make sure you ride straight for about quarter of the circle between each movement. you can then start the exercise in trot and build up to shoulder in-straight - shoulder out - straight - haunches in - straight - haunches out - straight and repeat. it takes a lot of riding and really gets the back end working as well as working both sides of the horse no matter what rein you are on :) it is still good to change the rein and repeat the exercise going round the circle the other way though to makes sure you can go round the circle :)
make sure you give a long and low walk/free walk on a long rein when you feel your horse getting tired.
canter work can include spiralling too (it is very beneficial). have you tried doing turn about the haunches? you only need to ask for a quarter turn but that will help your horse sit more, you can ride a diamond shape :) do you do many simple changes? you mention halt to canter and canter to halt, walk to canter and canter to walk are also very good and will mean you are asking your horse to be more forward. aim for about 5 steps in walk between your canters :)
hope some of that helps, other posters have given you great advice :)

[twinkle11]

rein back will help
get him listening and lighten up at front with also get him really working from behind works wounders for my mare.

[Elvengirl]

Coss - yeah I would agree I didn't think it would have mattered with him being a stallion but was wondering what others thought.

Thanks so much for the advice, I'll have to print it out and take it to the yard to remember it all! :o

I like the idea of asking for less medium trot and transition to shoulder-in, as I was finding he was getting unbalanced and more and more on the forehand as we went around, but I wasn't sure how to remedy it. This seems like a great plan.

[Elvengirl]

Found this link on another thread, FANTASTIC!!

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/H/Hannover,%20Martina/Position/Position.html