Foal Jumping

[KateWooten]

How do we feel about foal jumping then, Yay, or Nay ? Obviously, not 'under saddle' .. but, you know, baby foals over big logs etc. Good / Bad ? Natural / Unnatural ?

[capalldubh]

Aw, sheesh, I thought it was jumping over foals. I mean, I can only jump a couple of feet, and I'm more likely to clear a foal than a grown up horse.

[Lovejoy]

lol! I could only clear a shetland foal.

[chev]

Mine cheerfully jump logs in the field. Not sure I'd do it as an exercise though.

[Mehitabel]

nay. our NF foals are to big for me to jump.

nay for the other thing too. no 'forced' (as in anything they've not chosen o do with no himan interaction) exercise for foals at all, in my book. we do sometimes leave little jumps (anything over 6 inches gets put away, we may leave trotting poles or tiny crosspoles up if on locks and not wings) up in the arena if they are going out in there before they venture to the field, but never make any moves to get them to jump them.

[domane]

What an odd question Kate (but then I suppose at least it's not about potatoes ;) )

Why are you asking and what do YOU feel about it?

[Denbenj]

Depending on just how young a foal... I'm not sure I would include jumps into its groundwork training at to younger an age,infact I have only recently introduced it to Kai- which hes taken to lovely and enjoys! ( I dont lol !! :rolleyes::o) If the horses intended path to compete, then I would probabley be introducing poles etc to walk over as a bit of fun combined with introduction for it

[KateWooten]

Well now Ms Domane.. 'tis cos I just found this image ... and I think I don't know how I feel about it at all .....

www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18778&d=1192586523

... so I thought I'd start a discussion .... but I dunno what's happening to this forum recently ... nobody seems to take anything* seriously these days :confused:


*anything I post, that is

[titch_]

i wouldn't class it as crul or abuse, But i think a foal should be borght up naturally maybe lve some logs in a feld aand if he wants to jummp fair enough! but if i have a foal i would just do flat work and handling!

[domane]

Yuck! I don't like that picture....

(do ALL Americans look like Pat Parelli when they where a cowboy hat :confused:)

[chev]

I thought it *was* Pat Parelli :confused:

That's a fair bit bigger than what our foals jump in the field. I wouldn't be happy with that to be honest.

[Kady A]

I'm too old to jump foals ... I can barely jump over the threshold into my house these days ... just an old git tho! :p

A youngster on our yard, when only a few days old, managed to clear a 4 ft stone wall and land in a ditch covered in slime ... no harm done.

I must admit I get a little disturbed when I see foals being jumped - I know they do it when playing etc ... but it just seems wrong.

[Lovejoy]

What a horrible photo! I would agree that wee foalies like to mess about and spring over certain things but that log is blinkin huge!

[domane]

I thought it *was* Pat Parelli :confused:


IS IT??? :confused: Whoops.... :o:o:o

(that'll explain the likeness then.....:o)

[chev]

IS IT??? :confused: Whoops.... :o:o:o

(that'll explain the likeness then.....:o)

I dunno now! Could someone please tell me if it is or not?! :o

[KateWooten]

Yep. It's Parelli.

[Kittycat]

I thought it was going to be a piccie of a big foal and a little jump, not the other way round. Looks a little soon to me.

Is it the Moustacheoed Man himself?:confused:

[chev]

Hmm... I do think Parelli overloads youngsters more than I'm comfortable with. They're only just working out where their legs go on the ground, nevermind jumping. That is a big log for such a baby. And for what?? I don't see the point.

[mayoguinness]

I don't like it, gentle stuff, perhaps asking them to yield to you as their mothers would move them around a little but not jumping, its just too young!

[Keket]

Don't like it. Foals need basic handling to build a foundation. Picking up feet, haltering, leading, basic manners etc. There's nothing basic about jumping a foal over a log almost as big as it is. :rolleyes: Not to mention it's totally unnecessary. What is it proving? We know foals can jump, then can also rear, buck, do flying changes, run into fences, etc. Doesn't mean we should be asking them too.

And yes, that looks like Parelli to me. Note the stick in his hand. And no, we North Americans don't all look dumb in cowboy hats. I'm told I look quite good. :p

[Mehitabel]

just looked at the photo - i think that is disgraceful.

[colettybetty]

The man is an idiot. If it is a picture of Parelli, I'm not surprised, the man should never be let near a horse. Off with his head.

BTW, our little one can do moosive jumps, handstands and Grand prix without any help from anyone.

[Kathryn128]

Well now Ms Domane.. 'tis cos I just found this image ... and I think I don't know how I feel about it at all .....

www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18778&d=1192586523

... so I thought I'd start a discussion .... but I dunno what's happening to this forum recently ... nobody seems to take anything* seriously these days :confused:


*anything I post, that is

I don't know about anyone else, Kate, but with your posts, I always read through a couple times and put it in context with the rest of the thread, cos I'm never totally sure if you're joking or not :o

In reference to the foal jumping, I can't see the point. It seems like something people would do just to add another selling point when selling a foal, when what sensible people really want is a foal that isn't a completely feral little monster. Regardless of breed, future etc. every horse deserves to have a babyhood.

Puts too much strain on their little gangly legs too early on anyway, and tbh, at that age, they reckon they've got about 12 legs and have no idea where to put any of them anyway ;)

[Rips]

Gee - I didn't realise that was Parrelli himself - I give the man credit for all he is able to do with horses (I've become addicted to watching the games on Horse and Country) but he must be an idiot if he doesn't realise the damage he could do... grr, I know foals are hyper little things and they would likely get up to hijinks and do damage anyway but theres no call for doing things like that.

Instead of taking an unspoilt foal to what I assume must be a high level of training, why isn't he teaching just the basics to a larger number of misunderstood/problem horses????

[Dancinglite]

Fugly talking about Parelli and the rest of the pictures that goes with the first one.


http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/08/natural-horsemanship-or-natural.html

[Crystal Fire]

That's not a high level of training, but I don't think it's appropriate for a foal. I believe Parelli thinks it's OK to teach a foal his 7 games at a very young age, but I disagree strongly with that.

[india]

That's not a high level of training, but I don't think it's appropriate for a foal. I believe Parelli thinks it's OK to teach a foal his 7 games at a very young age, but I disagree strongly with that.
I don't think a foal should be taught to jump - especially a log that size but I'm not to sure I agree with you about the games.

What's your opinion on this clip CF....
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GJN7AKpg8zI

:)

[KateWooten]

Kathryn128 - (highly irrelevant, but true) you're one of my favourite 'yoofs' on New Rider. I always read your posts and am invariably re-impressed and enthused about the quality of British education, if it is turning out intelligent, reasoning, self-confident and - dammit- funny young peeps like you. My posts and threads are <<probably>> tongue-in-cheek, poking fun, and serious in equal measure.

The Parelli pic, I didn't get off fugly-horse for once - I was reading through the big controversy about Walter Zettl, and the Parellis, on COTH.

The background ( I think ) is this. NH over here succeeds brilliantly as a backlash against the rough and ready methods of 'get er done' cowboying of the 1880s. There is some of that left here. Over in N. Cal on the rodeo circuit mid way through last century, the Dorrances and others looked for and found 'a better way'. Ray Hunt and maybe Buck Brannaman seem to have been just a little younger - younger brothers ? in the heritage ... and most of the current crop of big names are, or claim to be, students of those guys.

Well now between those big clinicians - Parelli, Lyons, Roberts, (Anderson), (Cox), .... they've got western riding sewn up. In order to expand, as I see it, they have to coax in the 'english' riders. Right now Chris Cox is the only one going after the hunter-jumpers. Chris Cox is pretty darn special, if you ever get to see him. That boy can ride. I watched a show of his where he took a bunch of boys from the professional rodeo circuit who had all never been on a horse before to a hunter barn, put them on some poor lady's show hunters and within the hour had them jumping 3ft triples. One of the lads had real trouble adjusting to the saddle and in the end asked if he could take the darn thing off and jumped the big triple perfectly bareback.

They were bull-riders, those boys, and although they'd never ridden a horse before, they had balance (and testosterone) that most of us can only dream of.

Well, that leaves the dressage ladies as the last unconquered market. Now for years, Parelli has been extremely rude about dressage - and continues to be, putting it, and its practitioners down at every opportunity. It's been part of his marketing strategy here. His target audience are people like me - older, career ladies returning to horses after a life break. We don't have much of a rough-out western tradition to rebel against, so he's been pushing the idea quite strongly, of Parelli being 'a better way' than traditional (competetive) dressage.

Well, at the same time, Anderson has been going out of his way to court and encourage the dressage ladies. He's had show after show where he's worked with high-profile dressage trainers, either him teaching them the Anderson thing, or them showing off the subtelty of their game ... basically he's had a LOT better impact on the dressage market than Parelli's constant dissing of them.

So just recently, Parelli announced that Walter Zettl - BIG Big gentleman in (classical) dressage over here - has agreed to only ever teach Pat and Linda Parelli, because Pat and Linda Parelli are the only two people in the world who can really understand love language and leadership, or softness, lightness etc ... whatever ... the Big Mistake on PParelli's part has been to claim, completely erroneously, that Walter Zettl is only ever going to teach PP and LP from now on. Unfortunately, Pat announced this on National TV. And of course it's totally untrue. Zettl continues to teach people as he has always done, through his clinics.

Well, the photo of this little foal comes to light as part of the (latest) uprising against PP here. I suspect it's quite an old photo, I'm not sure though.

Just wanted to keep you all up to date on what's going on over here in Parelli-land if you don't have access to the shows !!

[Sammii]

It looks more like clambering over, than jumping tbh.

That's like asking a just-learned-how-to-walk-baby to climb up the stairs: It can only end in disaster.

[shandy84]

Nope not for me, they can jump what they want on their own time but none will be forced to jump by me, blimey Brambles 5 and I want to wait till spring before teaching her to jump :p

[Crystal Fire]

India, that video looks OK doesn't it? Some basic yielding, no working from pressure on the head, and the foal is only actually being expected to think for about 5 minutes. It's a bit different to the way I've seen Pat working with a foal. I don't think you should be taking it further, like asking them to circle on-line for example.
One thing that I did think about re the video. For first haltering of a foal, I wouldn't use a rope halter and allow the foal to wander off. One little leg coming up to scratch the halter because it feels strange and a hoof could easily slip into the side of the unbreakable halter. Overall though it was calm and quiet and not invasive. :)

[Siogfinsceal]

why would anyone do this? he looks like a right spanner in that picture tbh surely this will harm the horse legs?

[Wally]

Only just seen the pic, I'm glad there's a deal of water separating him from me, http://www.cosgan.de/images/more/bigs/a043.gif
That poor foal will knock his poor little stifles.

He needs too get the Steve Irwin treatment! :(

[capalldubh]

I've been told PP says it's OK to lay a horse down because mares do it to foals. Does anybody know if (a) PP has said this and if so (b) has he any documented evidence of it happening?

On the strength of this, I can see the argument going:

Mares do far worse things to foals than we ever could.
Mares discipline foals all the time to let them know who's boss.
Therefore we can ask a foal to jump as it's no worse than the foal's dam would do.

Please feel free to pick any holes in this argument you like (even without the laying down, it seems fairly consistent with the sort of Parelli line of argument to me).

[Mehitabel]

I've been told PP says it's OK to lay a horse down because mares do it to foals. Does anybody know if (a) PP has said this and if so (b) has he any documented evidence of it happening?

On the strength of this, I can see the argument going:

1) Mares do far worse things to foals than we ever could.
2) Mares discipline foals all the time to let them know who's boss.
3)Therefore we can ask a foal to jump as it's no worse than the foal's dam would do.

Please feel free to pick any holes in this argument you like (even without the laying down, it seems fairly consistent with the sort of Parelli line of argument to me).

a) no idea.
b) also no idea, but in all my reading and experience and talking to people, i've never heard of a horse lying another one down other than in a serious fight. we've had broodmares for 14 years and i've never seen one of them discipline a foal by lying it down or restricting its movement in any way. they thump them with closed teeth or shove them out of the way.

1) i don't agree here. as said above, they thump them if they are too annoying, and that is it.
2) no, they don't. they only discipline them when the foal is being a pest and only then - just like a mother with a human child. those parents who discipline their kids to show them who's boss tend to end up speaking to social services or the police...
3) mares don't use physical exertion as a punishment, so the analogy kind of falls down.

[chev]

What Mehitabel said.

I've never seen a mare lay a foal down, ever. I've seen plenty shove or thump a foal that's annoying them, and I've seen them chase an irritating foal away, but I've never seen a foal laid down.

Imho that foal is far too young to be working like that away from his mum anyway. We 'work' ours alongside mum until weaning (and that's just grooming, picking feet up and the basics of haltering).

[Wally]

What Chev and Mehitabel say.

Never seen a mare put a foal to the floor, that's a dog thing, a dominant dog will pin a gobby puppy to the floor.

Well, I'll tell you how hard it was to work with 3 just wearned foals tonight. Called them (they have never spent anight inside in their lives to date), they all came running, I walked into the shed, they followed me......I shut the door. All they have had is very basic handling, feet picked up and touched all over their body.

[Palomino Mare]

i've been think old patty is a bit of a crazy for a while now.....today i'm confirming my statement:rolleyes:

[india]

India, that video looks OK doesn't it?

You bet!! :)

I think it's an excellent example of what natural horsemanship's 'pressure & release' is all about, the girl's feel and timing is perfect - something many of us are constantly striving to achieve.

The foal is obviously quite happy with all the attention she's receiving as well!!! :)

[puzzles]

Ditto india - i have even favourited that video! I love it - that's how training should be: not forced but short and sweet and interesting for the foal - iot was text book style! the foal really trusted herwithout fear at all, but respectful too; no htting, no shouting or oushing around. harmonious or what?!

:-D thank you for showing us that!

xx

[SLW]

This is just wrong and makes my blood boil :mad:

There was a thing on the news a few weeks back to do with obesity problems in children. It turned out at some schools, kids as young as 5yrs, were being taken to the gym in their lunch time to work out! There was such a fuss about it - the kid hasn't developed physically enough to be "training".

The same applies for this poor, sweet foal.

Pat Parelli natural horsemanship - I don't think so. B****y idiot more like :mad:

[india]

I've been told PP says it's OK to lay a horse down because mares do it to foals. Does anybody know if (a) PP has said this and if so (b) has he any documented evidence of it happening?

I've never heard that before....but if he did, I'm sure there will be plenty of documented evidence of him suggesting it.

Although, I have been told by a friend of a friend that from next year, PP is going to suggest that all students spend at least 3 hours a day barefoot as this will help them achieve a more 'natural' feel and bond with their horse.

;)

[Wally]

Ookay, he can come here and do that, then we'll see how keen he is to do it.

Generally "Freind of a friend" stories have no base in fact.

[Alyth Long]

I am amazed that there are over 2 pages of criticism of a picture!! Have any of you watched the video that this picture is taken from? Seen what went on before and listened to Pat talking about what he was doing and why? Alyth

[Keket]

No, we haven't. Would you care to share it? I'm curious to find out how he defends asking a foal to jump something of that size.

If one of us posted a picture of us jumping our foal over a log, we'd be jumped on. But because it's Parelli, we have to be nice?

[india]

If one of us posted a picture of us jumping our foal over a log, we'd be jumped on. But because it's Parelli, we have to be nice?
More likely this threads three pages long because it's Parelli jumping the foal over a log. I don't agree with what he's doing, but I bet it wouldn't have got further than page one if the man himself hadn't appeared in the picture.

[Keket]

More likely this threads three pages long because it's Parelli jumping the foal over a log. I don't agree with what he's doing, but I bet it wouldn't have got further than page one if the man himself hadn't appeared in the picture.

Exactly. Because if it had been some random person (not an NR member, just someone in cyberspace), everyone would have chalked it up to it being just some quack, and that would be it. But to see someone that claims to only do good for horses doing it... It's a little appalling. Hence why I'm very curious to see the video it's from, and see if there's any justification for it at all.

[india]

Exactly. Because if it had been some random person (not an NR member, just someone in cyberspace), everyone would have chalked it up to it being just some quack, and that would be it. But to see someone that claims to only do good for horses doing it... It's a little appalling. Hence why I'm very curious to see the video it's from, and see if there's any justification for it at all.

Mmm, maybe... but I can't help noticing how a lot of things that PP teaches is shot down in flames - for example, laying a horse down. Yet the same folks who condem him for doing this have no qualms what so ever about clicker training that teaches exactly the same thing.

At least PNH has a purpose behind the principle of laying a horse down, whereas clicker promotes it in the trick training catergory.

Where's the logic in that????

:confused:

[Keket]

No idea about that, as I can only defend my own views. I see nothing inherently wrong about teaching a horse to lie down on command. Although I can see how it stress some horses out, as being down equals vulnerability for them. As long as the horse feels secure, I don't have a problem with it. The foal jumping, though, is adding unnecessary physical stress to a very immature animal.

I will say that I'm not a fan of Parelli, but that's mostly because I feel he's gimmicky. There are numerous other trainers that sell reasonably priced DVDs and books and still have a big following, but Parelli is just so over-marketed. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with making money off a good idea. And certainly, laying out horse training in a way that people can learn it is a good idea. But with the number of DVDs he sells, he doesn't need to charge that much for them to make a profit. He doesn't need to charge $30 for a rope halter. He doesn't need to charge $35 for what seems to be nothing more then a schooling whip, or $20 for a 6' length of rope. And he doesn't need to tout his system as a cure all for every horse.

Above all, he doesn't need to be jumping foals over logs.

[Alyth Long]

LOL Well it is a long time since I watched it, I will have to pull it out and watch again. But from memory that picture is quite a way along. He has been playing with the foal for short intervals for several weeks. It is a well grown and confident foal with its mother just in front. It is a log that they have just scrambled over - not a proper jump! And it was a one off. It is a very interesting video which gave me lots of useful tips. As a matter of interest which of you who posted have actually had anything to do with foals?
As for the Parelli programme. I started with the traditional BHS system and passed my Pony Club A certificate. When the NH phenomenon started I researched quite a few of the people practising these methods. I found that they mostly teach the same thing. However Parelli is the only one who has put the techniques in a logical sequential order and added in other aspects, such as the keys and principles and responsibilities. Every NH book I read has the same things wrapped up in a lot of words. Pats doesn't. His savvy system lays it out as you need to follow it. And as he says "it's so old it's new again".
Having said that over the past year or so I have been disappointed that the "new" stuff is not really Pats programme as it was originally set out. That is the "old" packs and as it was in his book . Linda did a terrific job putting that programme into easily accessible format but the "new" packs and the "Liberty and Horse Behaviour" and the newest set I think are a hotch potch of Lindas interpretation of Pats programme. There is some good information in the "new" packs but if they are aimed at newbies the information is too advanced for them.
And the equipment is superb. I am still using my first halter and 12' line which I bought 10 years ago. Imitations I tried have long gone!!! And they are used every day.
Of course that is simply my opinion and you are free to disagree with me!!! Alyth

[Alyth Long]

I forgot to say that nowhere in the programme is there anything about laying a horse down. However some people studying the programme find they get such a great bond with their horse that he will lie down for them. Alyth

[crews]

Well said! - I always understood that horses don't jump naturally - they can(obviously) but given the coice in a 'wild' situation would go around rather than over an obstacle. I'm not against jumping - most well handled horses can learn to really enjoy it, but foals -they may occasionally choose to jump as part of healthy play, but heavens above their 'childhood' last such a short time let them be babies, stick to the necessary stuff.

[AengusOg]

It's in the same vein as the rest of his work.........circus tricks!

[india]

It's in the same vein as the rest of his work.........circus tricks!

From that statement, you've obviously not looked into the PNH principles of training....

I'm totally and utterly against any type of trick training - if the PNH programme even remotely suggested teaching circus tricks, I'd have been out the door like a shot!!!!

As Alyth Long has already mentioned, nowhere in the training programme do you HAVE to lay a horse down. It was my PERSONAL choice to learn how to do it using the PNH method...and my reasons for doing so had nothing to do with teaching tricks.

;)

[Wally]

I'd love PP to come and try his methods on some of my hill ponies......lamb to the slaughter :D :D

Andrew would have him sobbing into his moustache! Charlie would have a field day!

The last Monty Roberts guru who tried to tame a wild hill pony in 20 minutes gave up after 2 hours.

[india]

I'd love PP to come and try his methods on some of my hill ponies......lamb to the slaughter :D :D

Andrew would have him sobbing into his moustache! Charlie would have a field day!

The last Monty Roberts guru who tried to tame a wild hill pony in 20 minutes gave up after 2 hours.

I doubt it....I'm sure PP's worked with a lot more challenging horses than your hill ponies Wally....and probably with tremendous success. ;)

There's the BIG difference between PP and MR method of training....PP doesn't put a time limit on training his principle is to 'take the time it takes' whereas MR prides himself on taming a wild horse at record speed.

;)

[Wally]

Then why did PP take part in some barbaric "training" (I sue the word losely) session in some American town.

I shall have to search for it now, Heather Moffett brought it to the fore. I shall have to do a search for it.

[Wally]

Here we are

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?topic=3844.0

2.5 hours to ride a 2 year old......Hmmm, sets no time limits eh?

[india]

Then why did PP take part in some barbaric "training" (I sue the word losely) session in some American town.

I shall have to search for it now, Heather Moffett brought it to the fore. I shall have to do a search for it.

Ah, I know the one you mean 'In a Whisper'.

To be honest, although I don't agree with what went on in the video...I'd hardly call it barbaric. The horses had regular rests and examinations by qualified vets throughout the day to ensure they where all ok :rolleyes:

Besides, this video was shot quite a few years ago and PP only ever participated in that contest once (although I do believe it's still held annualy). That's one thing I admire about PP he openly admits he's got things wrong in the past.... and this is probably one instant he's refering to.

It doesn't suprise me that Heather Moffet regulary harps on about it though. :rolleyes:

[india]

Here we are

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?topic=3844.0

2.5 hours to ride a 2 year old......Hmmm, sets no time limits eh?

Yep, got it in one...2.5 hours actually being handled and ridden that took place over the course of the FULL day.....the contest started early on the morning and didn't finish untill late in the evening.


http://www.inawhisper.com/moreinfo.php

;)

ETA: I'm not a member of that forum so can't access the link.

[AengusOg]

What he's doing with that foal amounts to abuse. Quite apart from the physical affects, its mind cannot be ready for that.

It's just another example of PP aiming his considerable business acuity at people who have no natural, instinctual ability with horses, but who, for some inane reason, think they should own a horse and demonstrate how they are equals in this world by subjecting the animal to a ridiculous regime of training.

His programmes cause his pupils to take months and even years to achieve what real horsepersons could do in a week. In the meantime they are consumed by the money generating monster which is PNH.

I read about one person on another site who had been sent a 22ft rope instead of the 12ft one which her 'level' of learning dictated. What was she going to do while this problem was put right? Doh, cut the rope in half and get on!?! I suspect that didn't happen, as the rope would have cost her an arm and a leg, and cutting it would compromise its resale potential. It's a dear game, Parelli.

How can anyone expect to learn horsemanship from a DVD, especially when they isolate themselves from the rest of the thinking horse-owning community in many cases? I've not yet met a PNH adherant who would even listen to any non-PNH advice, far less take it. Their horses are either bored senseless by endless games (sometimes going on for hours), or left to stagnate while they wait for the postman.

I would like to see the stats on his success rate. No doubt there will be those who are able to make something of it, but I suspect there will be many who are left disenchanted, confused, and broken as a result of this 'distance learning' approach to horsemanship; not to mention the horses traumatised by the inept fumblings of his failed disciples.

I'm surprised PP has time to touch a horse. He must spend most of his time rubbing his palms together whilst squinting around for his next sucker. His constant quest for new tricks to impress the world must reduce his sleep potential too.

We could be lucky though; it may all implode one day (as did the Roman Empire), and he'll be found whimpering in the corner of the barn, with only his moustache to talk to.

If they want to be real horsepersons, these people need to get out and ask anyone anything they need to know. Being elitist is not enough.

There now, I'm ready, hit me with it.

[india]

It's just another example of PP aiming his considerable business acuity at people who have no natural, instinctual ability with horses, but who, for some inane reason, think they should own a horse and demonstrate how they are equals in this world by subjecting the animal to a ridiculous regime of training.


Well I didn't get further than that paragraph.....how rude and condesending. I'm not even going to waste my time replying to such an offensive post.
:mad:

[Wally]

Not something I'd put any 2 year old of mine through, anything tha'd need a vet on the premises to monitor the horse's well being is not what I'd subscribe to, not with 2 year olds.

[AengusOg]

Come on now india,

I'm sure you must have got a wee bit further.

[Wally]

I'm surprised PP has time to touch a horse. He must spend most of his time rubbing his palms together whilst squinting around for his next sucker.

What, like this? http://www.cosgan.de/images/more/bigs/a115.gif

AengusOg, has it.

[india]

Not something I'd put any 2 year old of mine through, anything tha'd need a vet on the premises to monitor the horse's well being is not what I'd subscribe to, not with 2 year olds.

I totally agree Wally, that's why I'm against horse racing.

[KateWooten]

I have to apologise to india, cos I like india and she fights a good and rational fight ....... but I'm afraid .... I LOVE AengusOg.

I have exactly that experience with Parellites - the complete inability to look at other stuff, to reason about it. It's very much like showing some reading material to a born-again Christian here - one time I was showing a born-again friend some recipes and she just closed the book and put it aside. It wasn't a christian recipe book. Same with my Parelli friend when we were looking at - I think it was 'Dancing With Horses' ... she simply closed it and put it aside, saying no, it was not her thing.

[india]

I have to apologise to india, cos I like india and she fights a good and rational fight ....... but I'm afraid .... I LOVE AengusOg.
You don't have to apologise KW, everyone is entitled to their opinion....BUT there are many different ways of expressing them.

First there's the rational, polite, or tongue in cheek way...these type of posts I always find interesting and often informative. Then you get the arrogant, condesending or offensive posts... In my opinion AengusOg falls in to this catergory. There's no reason for anyone to be offensive when trying to get their opinion across.

I just hope she/he communicates better with their horse.

;)

[colettybetty]

Actually, I think AengusOg has a point in the opening paragraph of her post, a very astute observation and of course there are always exceptions, but every demo or person I've personally encountered using these techniques has left me feeling disturbed.
Once some of these trainers realise that making a name brand from their name, doing road shows and marketing thier merchandise makes money, they seem to lose sight of their orginal objectives ;to educate and enable people to make their horses lives better. These clinics are often just travelling fairs with the modern day equvilent of a 'doc' selling a cure-all potion. Parelli horses doing tricks remind me of Dancing Bears. No dignity.

[india]

Actually, I think AengusOg has a point in the opening paragraph of her post, a very astute observation and of course there are always exceptions, but every demo or person I've personally encountered using these techniques has left me feeling disturbed.
Once some of these trainers realise that making a name brand from their name, doing road shows and marketing thier merchandise makes money, they seem to lose sight of their orginal objectives ;to educate and enable people to make their horses lives better. These clinics are often just travelling fairs with the modern day equvilent of a 'doc' selling a cure-all potion. Parelli horses doing tricks remind me of Dancing Bears. No dignity.
Like with any training method, PNH is not full (or fool) proof, there will be those who watch a demo or video and think "hey, that's cool I can do that" then go out and wreck their horse. Then there's the other extreme who 'bible bash' folks with it at every opportunity they get...:rolleyes:

On the other hand, there's folks who go through the levels just to help them understand their horses better or those (like me) who looked towards Parelli because they had a horse with a seriou behaviour issue that other NH trainers would have been prepared to use a mechanical gadet on to 'solve' the problem.

Parelli does not train a horse to do circus tricks, if this is what folk are looking for it's best if they go down the clicker training route.

I studied to L3 but haven't been 'in' Parelli for quite a while now, but I will always have great respect and admiration for a programme that helped my boy to overconme his problem and become a pleasure to ride and own....without him having to lose an ounce of dignity along the way.

;)

[Keket]

LOL Well it is a long time since I watched it, I will have to pull it out and watch again. But from memory that picture is quite a way along. He has been playing with the foal for short intervals for several weeks. It is a well grown and confident foal with its mother just in front. It is a log that they have just scrambled over - not a proper jump! And it was a one off. It is a very interesting video which gave me lots of useful tips. As a matter of interest which of you who posted have actually had anything to do with foals?

You're arguing against points nobody made. I'm sure he couldn't get that foal to do that without prior training; nobody's said they thought he just flat out asked. And there's no such thing as a "well grown foal". A well grown foal is a horse. By their nature of being babies, foal's aren't grown. The fact that the foal is confident doesn't matter either. Sort of like little children will do whatever you want them to simply because they know you're in charge. But it doesn't mean that's a good thing. Why scramble over it? Heaven forbid the foal had tripped and injured itself.

And if it's just a one off, why do it at all unless you're trying to prove some stupid point about how you can make a horse do whatever you want?

Finally, yes. I have handled foals. Darby is six weeks old. She gets her feet handled, she gets brushed, she gets taken for short walks with her mother on the lead line with a halter. She'll happily stick her head into the halter when asked. We've felt no desire to ask her to scramble over logs.

[colettybetty]

Alyth Long, Yes, I have a foal and have looked after mares and foals on a stud, although not a farmer, I wouldn't be too chuffed if it was a calf he was training either.
India,echo Kate W you talk a good argument, maybe you are a better advertisement for the training method than the last demo I saw with a wheel chair bound stick-waving woman with two beautiful circus- performing friesians, robbed of dignity.

[SLW]

All I am going to say is this;

Pat Parelli Natural horseman.... Definately not. Complete arsehole..Definately yes.

I would love to meet idiots like this man in a dark alley one night :mad:

[Crystal Fire]

Personal insults out of order I think SLW.
Have any of you watched the video that this picture is taken from? Yes - next question. :D
I had a vague thought that laying a horse down was part of level 3? But certainly more advanced students are encouraged to do that, and it often features in demos. Having seen it done many, many times I'm not sure I'd say all of the horses do it because they have such a great bond with their trainers. I think it's more that their training has prepared them to submit to the laying down process. The person lifts the near front leg and bends the head round to encourage the horse down, you often see the horse lift it's head and think about getting up again, but the person will put them down again and then stroke them all over to encourage them to relax and stay down. I do think it demonstrates a certain level of trust, but what's the purpose with your average well-adjusted horse?
(I'm separating this laying down from the Rarey method, which is sometimes used by trainers on extremely disturbed horses).

[chev]

SLW - if that's all you're going to say, please don't.

It adds nothing to the discussion and personal slights (against anyone) are not tolerated here.

[SLW]

SLW - if that's all you're going to say, please don't.

It adds nothing to the discussion and personal slights (against anyone) are not tolerated here.

People are entitled to their opinion and this is mine. My opinion is not out of order, but the way this man is treating this foal is. I have the same opinion of anyone who agress with this - they must have no concept at all of what they are doing to this poor undeveloped foal - bones, tendons, ligaments and muscles which are not developed enough to be jumping something of this size. If it was a small rasied pole of no more than a foot off the ground (which is still wrong), I wouldn't be as angry as I am now, but anyone can clearly see that this log is twice the size of the foal. Why would anyone want to jump a foal or even consider it? I have spent years in my industry and specialise in "problem" horses and youngsters and know too well how much damage this will cause the foal, both physical and mental. I am not trying to offend people on here, I am just speaking my mind and in short, I think this is idiotic and absue, which shouldn't be praised at all. :mad:

[india]

I had a vague thought that laying a horse down was part of level 3?
No, CF, I think you'll find it definately isn't a part of L3.

But certainly more advanced students are encouraged to do that, and it often features in demos. Having seen it done many, many times I'm not sure I'd say all of the horses do it because they have such a great bond with their trainers.
Rather than being encouraged to lay a horse down, I had the impression that advanced students where only given the option of learning how to do it. Either way, there was certainly never any pressure put on them.

I do think it demonstrates a certain level of trust, but what's the purpose with your average well-adjusted horse?
There's many instances where it could be useful for a horse to be able to lay down on command. My main purpose being was to help my horses final journey to be as stress free as possible. I had plans for each of them (when their time came), to be already layed down when the injection was given.

Sadly, that option was taken out of my hands when Shamrock passed on.:(

[Keket]

People are entitled to their opinion and this is mine. My opinion is not out of order, but the way this man is treating this foal is.

Hate to put words in chev's mouth, but I do believe that chev's objection was not to you disagreeing but to you calling Parelli an arsehole. There's criticism and then there's name-calling. Disagree all you want, but do it respectfully, please.

[Crystal Fire]

Sorry to hear about your Shamrock India.
When I worked at a Parelli centre people at around the level 3 sort of stage were encouraged to learn to lay their horses down. I don't think it was particularly traumatic to the horses at that stage in training, it's not something I'm strongly against. The pressure was there sometimes, but it was quite gentle. It's easy to keep a horse down once you've got them to go down in the first place, if you get what I mean. :)

[mayoguinness]

Well I disagree with a lot of the comments that toatally condem PNH. For many its a good starting block to then expand to different types of NH and I know a lot of people that without it there horses would have been shot a long time a go but are now brilliant, calm and compliant horses with a lot of charicter. There is a lot I don't agree with with Parelli but it doesn't mean he hasn't got some good ideas and doesn't help a lot of people and horses, however people seem to like to forget that in a lot of cases.

[india]

Sorry to hear about your Shamrock India.
Thanks CF.

When I worked at a Parelli centre people at around the level 3 sort of stage were encouraged to learn to lay their horses down. I don't think it was particularly traumatic to the horses at that stage in training, it's not something I'm strongly against. The pressure was there sometimes, but it was quite gentle. It's easy to keep a horse down once you've got them to go down in the first place, if you get what I mean. :)
I think we both realise from previous conversations, our PNH experiences above L1 are vastly different.......probably through the 3* instructors who taught us or the clinics and workshops we attended.

It's always interesting to read your points of view though.

:)

[chev]

Hate to put words in chev's mouth, but I do believe that chev's objection was not to you disagreeing but to you calling Parelli an arsehole. There's criticism and then there's name-calling. Disagree all you want, but do it respectfully, please.

Thankyou Keket; that's it exactly. If you read my posts you'll see that I do not condone what the man is doing at all; I am of the same viewpoint you are.

But you can get that viewpoint over without insults and name-calling.

[Wally]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Not something I'd put any 2 year old of mine through, anything tha'd need a vet on the premises to monitor the horse's well being is not what I'd subscribe to, not with 2 year olds.

I totally agree Wally, that's why I'm against horse racing.


But it's okay for PP to put a foal and a 2 year old through it????

[Crystal Fire]

India, I don't really see the laying down aspect of what we learnt to be particularly negative. Once you've got your horse well into level 3 work there is a level of understanding between horse and trainer that can (should?) make a trust exercise like that relatively easy. Did you see Dave Stewart lay down Charlotte's dark bay mare (forget the name at the moment). He had such love in his hands and it was obvious in his face, there wasn't a dry eye in the house.
Continuing the foal discussion - I've got a couple of bits of video here of Pat working with foals at the ISC, but I don't think they are part of released material, so I wouldn't like to lend them around. My feeling watching them was that it was all very clever, but rather more than I was comfortable with. Compared to my own experience bringing on my own foal, Fire, I think I needed to do a bit more of what Pat does with foals - but not all of it. I should have done more of the sort of work that is shown on that You Tube clip that India linked to. The yielding, leg lifting and gentle guiding work would have been a really good idea, but I wouldn't want to take it further to circling or jumping. I often think you learn from everyone, sometimes what you would do, sometimes what you wouldn't.

[Lgd]

Foal popping over something of its own accord - fine, Belle at 7 months old jumped a 3'9" field fence of her own accord (and cleared it :rolleyes: ). Doesn't mean she should have to do it just because she can.

This sort of approach i.e. deliberately jumping and over something solid enough to break its legs - not fine. This is the sort of thing that causes them to break down in later life with joint damage.

[Francis Burton]

Mmm, maybe... but I can't help noticing how a lot of things that PP teaches is shot down in flames - for example, laying a horse down. Yet the same folks who condem him for doing this have no qualms what so ever about clicker training that teaches exactly the same thing.

At least PNH has a purpose behind the principle of laying a horse down, whereas clicker promotes it in the trick training catergory.
Not sure if I have asked this before, but what is PP's purpose behind laying a horse down and how does it differ from exactly the same action being taught using clicker training (not purely for amusement)?

(See my reply on the other thread "Clicker Training..?" http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124362 for valid "not for amusement" reasons to teach "tricks".)

FWIW, I didn't like what the picture showed. I don't know how much work was involved in teaching the foal to go over the log, but I would be concerned if it involved pressure applied intermittently for a duration of over 5 minutes or so - in my opinion, that is too much for a young foal.

[Crystal Fire]

I think it's just a trust exercise Francis. What is it in clicker training?
India's post gave me food for thought I must say, how about being able to lay your horse down quietly should they need to be put completely under for a vet procedure, or even to be pts?
It's not like Rarey, that is a forceful laying down of a horse that is going to fight it. A lot of preparation goes into the PNH laying down, so I don't think it's such a big step for the horses.
I'm thinking of seeing if my pony will lay down for scratches. She loves under her neck being attacked, and I noticed at the weekend that if I kept dropping my hand slightly she was coming lower and lower to find it. She wouldn't be bothered at all about being laid down as you can approach her any time she is prostrate in the field to fuss her, lean against her or lay down with your head on her. :D

[fraser87uk]

Im sorry but whatever anyone who supports PP says, him, his methods and his familys methods are an aweful woeful way of scamming people out of money.

Look at the failure rate people have trying PP's methods.

At the end of the day every single horse is different and something that works directly for one horse is unlikely going to work for another.

PP's methods are jumping on the "be green", "be natural", "be super nature friendly" bandwagon which for the most part is a big crock of pish.

+ jumping a foal is just cruel and abusive, end of.

Would you jump your baby?

[shoniedaspony]

we have wandered 6mo foals round the arena and given them the option to follow over a pole or to walk around it. after a few times walking round it, they were happy to walk over it.

a large log is just too big. there is a limit to the size of log i would try to get my fully mature horse to walk over-and it definately wouldnt be one that is as high on that foal as it would be on him...

i think it is an issue of safety

[india]

But it's okay for PP to put a foal and a 2 year old through it????
What's your problem Wally ? :confused:

If you read my posts I've already stated that I DON'T agree with what he did with the foal or with the 'In a Whisper' contest.

:rolleyes:

[Francis Burton]

I think it's just a trust exercise Francis. What is it in clicker training?
Er, possibly a trust exercise? :rolleyes: Or maybe (more realistically) a "practising clicker training" exercise, though TBH I haven't ever seen a horse being laid down using CT.

I think the nicest demonstrations of trust are offered by the horse, rather than being deliberately trained - for example, there's that video where the mare decides to plop down next to the guy who is handling her foal.

India's post gave me food for thought I must say, how about being able to lay your horse down quietly should they need to be put completely under for a vet procedure, or even to be pts?
Food for thought (albeit rather sombre)!

It's not like Rarey, that is a forceful laying down of a horse that is going to fight it.
Phew, that's a relief! :o

A lot of preparation goes into the PNH laying down, so I don't think it's such a big step for the horses.
I'm thinking of seeing if my pony will lay down for scratches. She loves under her neck being attacked, and I noticed at the weekend that if I kept dropping my hand slightly she was coming lower and lower to find it. She wouldn't be bothered at all about being laid down as you can approach her any time she is prostrate in the field to fuss her, lean against her or lay down with your head on her. :D
It's amazing how many horses are happy about that. I used to go out in the fields at the vet school here (when they still had fields!) and sit beside horses that were in the ventral recumbent position, and then stroked their necks till their heads flopped down and they went to sleep. The most memorable was when the herd stallion came and laid down next to me - I felt quite privileged. Then there was a warm summer day when I almost fell asleep while resting my head against a horse's neck on Midsummer Common in Cambridge - and was roused by a group of Japanese tourists talking animatedly and taking photos of us. :D

[Francis Burton]

Look at the failure rate people have trying PP's methods.
As a matter of interest, what is the failure rate? I'm not sure anyone has tried to assess this in any systematic way. And anyway, what constitutes "failure"?

At the end of the day every single horse is different and something that works directly for one horse is unlikely going to work for another.
I have to disagree and say that "learning theory" has worked with every horse I have known, and in my view the successes (and failures) of various methods can ultimately be explained in terms of learning theory.

pish.
:eek:

Would you jump your baby?
No, I wouldn't - and I have no idea what PP intended by his demonstration of foal jumping.

[india]

I think it's just a trust exercise Francis. What is it in clicker training?
India's post gave me food for thought I must say, how about being able to lay your horse down quietly should they need to be put completely under for a vet procedure, or even to be pts?
Other reasons could be if a horse couldn't support himself on three legs (maybe due to arthritis) and he needed foot treatment, RDA or maybe even if the rider had an accident and couldn't re-mount in the normal way.

If there's a genuine reason for teaching a horse to lay down, I personally see nothing wrong with it.

:)

[mogadoga]

That pic is awful! I think fair do's if they do it of their own accord, the know when there ready to manage things, like babies , but not as an actuall exercise at all!!

[india]

(See my reply on the other thread "Clicker Training..?" http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124362 for valid "not for amusement" reasons to teach "tricks".)
Francis, I replied to your post on the link. :)

[Crystal Fire]

I don't think you can claim that Parelli has a high failure rate BECAUSE what are you comparing it to? I get asked for help with horses from time to time, and spend a lot of time out and about in other yards etc, and I see loads of people who I would consider to be failing at whatever it is they claim to be their style of horsemanship. The thing is, because they don't have rope halters and orange sticks (or, let's face it in some cases a fanatical gleam in their eyes :D) they don't stand out from the crowd. They are just a part of that large mass of horse owners who just get by.
If people can't ride their horses out without having to "control" it with a strong bit or martingale - that's a failure in my eyes. If they can't handle the horse without being shoved about by it, or if the horse won't be caught easily, or if it whips round and chucks it's legs in the air when released... they are failures in horsemanship to me. Common failures.
I'm not a Parelli student or fan, but I have been, and when I was I had a lot of success. People used to say (and still do) oh, you're so lucky, you're horses are so good. I'd never be able to ride my horse in that. If you did that with MY horse he wouldn't stay with you. Blah blah whatever. ;) They couldn't accept that my horses and I were in that happy situation not by luck, but by practise and by doing lots of the rope and stick waving that they took the p i s s out of.
How do you measure success? By ticking boxes on a levels programme, or by having your horse the friend you want him to be? In which case, look at a lot of people who do a little bit of Parelli and stop - often because they have achieved what the needed from it, not because they have "failed".
So - to conclude my rant - I don't like the extent to which Pat is working with that foal. But I do know a lot of people who have success and fun with their horses as a result of getting involved in Parelli. And I also know that there aren't any statistics on the failure rate or otherwise of the students.

[india]

Well put CF and I totally agree with everything you've said, especially.......
How do you measure success? By ticking boxes on a levels programme, or by having your horse the friend you want him to be? In which case, look at a lot of people who do a little bit of Parelli and stop - often because they have achieved what the needed from it, not because they have "failed".
I'm sure there must only be a very small percentage of PNH students that ever go further than L3 - with the majority of them starting to go their own way probably around mid L2. As you say, this is more often because they'd reached their goal and achieved what they'd initially set out to achieve....not because they'd become another victim on the 'failure rate' statistic board.

:)

[Crystal Fire]

Yes. If you re-start any horse using an NH type approach (Parelli or whatever) it is very thorough, and often just by going through the simple steps you find out the "holes" in the original training, and whatever issues the horse supposedly had vanish.
Well, Parelli level 1 is based on some of the young horse starting process (which is also used with problem horses or horse that need re-training). It is a set of exercises designed to get the horse "smarter, braver and calmer" (see? I remember... ;)). I know that many people start to learn about Parelli because they have some sort of problem they want to tackle, finish level 1 and the problem has gone. For them, they may have no particular need to progress further.