changing diagonal on a serpentine

[miggy]

Sorry if stupid question but if doing a trot serpentine (prelim 18) should you change diagonal as you go?
Any other tips for this test much appreciated, no rush but needed for tomorrow :D
Thanks

[Dancinglite]

I just sit the trot.

[augermoon]

If you are rising, yes you will need to change the diagonal or you will be unbalanced on the turns.

[Libbyo]

Sorry if stupid question but if doing a trot serpentine (prelim 18) should you change diagonal as you go?
Any other tips for this test much appreciated, no rush but needed for tomorrow :D
Thanks

NO rush! Cheeky! Will Monday do?

[Dancinglite]

Interesting that you are required to even post. In any test over here that I am aware of the serpentine is consitered a more advanced movement and must be executed sitting.

[SLW]

Serpentines are used alot in prelim tests.
You can either carry out the movement in sitting or rising - which ever is most comfortable for you and the horse. If you are rising, you need to change your diagonal, as you change the horses flexion, whilst crossing the centre line.
Hope this helps :D

[Stella2]

Yes, you change it on each loop over the centre line.

Interesting that you are required to even post. In any test over here that I am aware of the serpentine is consitered a more advanced movement and must be executed sitting. Serpentines are used at lower level dressage in the UK.

[Libbyo]

Morning, and good luck for today. xx

[miggy]

Thanks all, one more bit to remember now. Have realised that with age befuddled brain, doing 2 prelim tests on same day is a big mistake-learn one then Ive forgotten the other!
Libbyo-Thanks, fab weather today, off to bath now-the joys of greys!

[Jane.A]

It is not necessary to change diagonal in the serpentine in a prelim test as often horses will hollow and come against the hand as you do so and you are going to finish up on the same rein as you started anyway. I prefer to see a horse stay in the same rhythm, with correct bend staying soft thru its back with consistancy to rein than one who falters slightly and comes against the hand as the rider changes diagonal. As to sitting trot, its not expected or required at prelim level and few horses are working over their backs enough to allow a rider to sit well at that level, causing tension and inconsistancy to contact. This then can affect the rider mark as it comes under effectiveness of the rider.
Horses need to illustrate correct training along the scales of training all levels, that means swinging freely forward in a regular RHYTHM, both laterally and over a SUPPLE back, to a soft, elastic and forward thinking CONTACT. They need sufficient IMPULSION to carry themselves forward in balance,STRAIGHTNESS to ensure the hindlimbs follow the path of the forelimbs pushing forwards towards the centre of gravity, and finally they will then be able to achieve the degree of COLLECTION required at the higher levels.
Hope that helps.

[Stella2]

Jane.A, I assume from your reply that you are a judge. I hope the OP won't mind if I ask a related question of you - What degree of softness and outline do you see and do you expect at prelim? My mare is now taking the bit, offering softness and outline in walk much of the time. To a lesser extent, she offers it briefly in trot too. I'm happy with the way in which we are progressing, but it would be interesting if you could put that into context of what judges expect and tend to see at prelim level.

[Jane.A]

I like to see a horse travelling freely forwards in a regular rhythm and working confidently towards the rein and steady in the contact. At prelim level we expect some inconsistancies to the contact if the horse loses balance and rhythm and mark accordingly.

[Dancinglite]

As I mentioned earlier this is a level higher movement than what you have in the UK. Over here I expect to see straightness between the loops with the correct change in flexion when changing from one side to the other. I expect to see a balanced horse ( fully balanced on the alternating outside reins) that can move freely forward with no change in rhythm and the horse in the frame necessary for this movement. This movement should showcase the freedom in the shoulder that this movement will bring out.

I understand that being a lower level movement here this may not be achieved as more basic training is required to accomplish this but maybe what I described should be a goal to aim for.

[Skib]

This thread has baffled me.
It shows the gulf between dressage used for competing and what I do in my lessons - to improve my riding?
A three loop serpentine is part of a test I have been riding in rising trot.
I change bend and diagonal as we cross the centre line.
I had supposed that the object of the test was keep the horse trotting regularly and with no interruption right through that change of bend and the change of my rise?
It is not so hard on a serpentine because one is on the straight at the moment of change of bend, but when I rode shallow loops - curves with two changes of bend, I tried many times before I got the lovely feel that the horse was trotting absolutely regularly under me.
There is no question of riding any part of the test - corners or circles on the wrong diagonal.

[eml]

Skib you are right there is generally a gulf between correct in lessons and correct in a dressage test. One is about teaching riders theory and then feel, the other about producing the best performance from the horse.

I agree with JaneA that the horses at prelim often show resistance when the rider changes diagonal and indeed there are some horses who will make every effort to 'throw' the rider onto a particular diagonal that is more comfortable for them.

I personally try to avoid actively teaching diagonals in theory and have discovered that once a rider really feels what is happening underneath them they will ride mainly on the 'correct' diagonal.

When I ride myself ( and have to do rising trot ..as little as possible) I would not consciously change diagonal in either loops or serpentines unless the horse felt unrythmical or stiff

[Dancinglite]

have discovered that once a rider really feels what is happening underneath them they will ride mainly on the 'correct' diagonal.




That is why my preference is to sit. When I ride the most I do is about 5 minutes of posting initially and all the rest of my ride is sitting. Sitting allows you to truly "feel" the horse.


However it can also be the source of much discomfort ( horse and rider) if not done right so in those cases resorting to a post trot is better all around.

[IrisSilverMoon]

That is why my preference is to sit. When I ride the most I do is about 5 minutes of posting initially and all the rest of my ride is sitting. Sitting allows you to truly "feel" the horse.

.

I do the same thing, warm up is big posting trot circles to get the horse moving well, then i go to sitting.

But for tests like training level (for the UK) my instructor told me to post since it makes it look like i'm afraid the horse will do something naughty, and you don't want to give that impression.

she was right too, it also sets a better rhythm for a horse that may be newer to showing and a little nervous.

[Kate F.]

Interesting that you are required to even post. In any test over here that I am aware of the serpentine is consitered a more advanced movement and must be executed sitting.

There do seem to be very big differences in what is expected at what level in different countries. Dancinglite - out of interest, which country is "over here"?

My "over here" is Austria - and that's different again! :D Here, in tests, all trot is sitting unless otherwise specified, and competition tests start at level "A" which is equivalent roughy to British Novice/Elementary. We have 2 kinds of serpentine - the "Schlangenlinie" which is a curve into the the 5 meter line and returning to the track, and the "Schlangentour" which crosses the centre line to a tangent point on the track on the opposite side. The Schlangenlinie is used a lot in schooling, but rarely turns up in a test, while the Schlangentour crops up all the time.

[Dancinglite]

There do seem to be very big differences in what is expected at what level in different countries. Dancinglite - out of interest, which country is "over here"?



My over here is Canada and we do the same tests that the Americans do.

[Vicki&Milo]

There do seem to be very big differences in what is expected at what level in different countries. Dancinglite - out of interest, which country is "over here"?

My "over here" is Austria - and that's different again! :D Here, in tests, all trot is sitting unless otherwise specified, and competition tests start at level "A" which is equivalent roughy to British Novice/Elementary. We have 2 kinds of serpentine - the "Schlangenlinie" which is a curve into the the 5 meter line and returning to the track, and the "Schlangentour" which crosses the centre line to a tangent point on the track on the opposite side. The Schlangenlinie is used a lot in schooling, but rarely turns up in a test, while the Schlangentour crops up all the time.

The schlangenlinie sounds a lot like what we refer to as a shallow loop. Is it any wonder I got very confused when trying to have a riding lesson is french in switzerland

[DITZ]

miggy I suggest that if you can remember to then yes change diagonals, if not don't fret about it.

I often forget to change and have never had a comment about it, even at affiliated events. You will feel if your horse is unbalanced and if so then sit for 2 beats. If not dont worry about it.:D

[Amanda22]

I'm doin the same test this Satdy:D Wish me luck:p;)

[GraceT]

It is not necessary to change diagonal in the serpentine in a prelim test as often horses will hollow and come against the hand as you do so and you are going to finish up on the same rein as you started anyway. I prefer to see a horse stay in the same rhythm, with correct bend staying soft thru its back with consistancy to rein than one who falters slightly and comes against the hand as the rider changes diagonal. As to sitting trot, its not expected or required at prelim level and few horses are working over their backs enough to allow a rider to sit well at that level, causing tension and inconsistancy to contact. This then can affect the rider mark as it comes under effectiveness of the rider.
Horses need to illustrate correct training along the scales of training all levels, that means swinging freely forward in a regular RHYTHM, both laterally and over a SUPPLE back, to a soft, elastic and forward thinking CONTACT. They need sufficient IMPULSION to carry themselves forward in balance,STRAIGHTNESS to ensure the hindlimbs follow the path of the forelimbs pushing forwards towards the centre of gravity, and finally they will then be able to achieve the degree of COLLECTION required at the higher levels.
Hope that helps.

Hi Jane

I am doing prelim 12 at the weekend with a trot serpentine, can I confirm I wont be penalised if I dont change diagonal?
Thank you!

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

yes, change your diagonal each time you cross the centre line (A-C line - cant memba what its called lol o deary me :rolleyes:).

[kat1]

I like to see a horse travelling freely forwards in a regular rhythm and working confidently towards the rein and steady in the contact. At prelim level we expect some inconsistancies to the contact if the horse loses balance and rhythm and mark accordingly.

I am confused over the issue of contact as my cob lost marks last year for not being on the bit but this year I am losing marks for her being too round and holding her back with contact???? - very confused!!!!:confused:

[Dancinglite]

and holding her back with contact???? - very confused!!!!:confused:


The optive words here are "holding her back". Stifle forward impulsion and your score will drop.

[IrisSilverMoon]

It also sounds as if she may be under the bit, which is something that can happen once the horse gets the idea you would like their head down, they overcompensate and then you loose points for being under the bit as well.