Buck stop?!!!!!!! [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

mayoguinness

8th Nov 2007, 06:04 PM

I suppose all gadgets should be used with care, and preferably only under qualified instruction.

You can shoot me down for this - but, I have seen the Monty Roberts buckstop in use and been able to inspect the horse's mouth afterwards and I can honestly say that there was no reddening of the gums and certainly no sore spots! The same horse was looked at over the following days and it suffered no ill effects at all. But it was used properly and under instruction.

That may be so but doesn't mean it didn't cause the horse a lot of pain. Instead of resloving the problem through understanding and gaining trust and insite into the reasons the horse is bucking, you're with a buck stopper using pain so that its memory of bucking is associated with one of pain and so the horse fears doing so.:o I just know that there are better ways!

india

8th Nov 2007, 06:14 PM

You can shoot me down for this - but, I have seen the Monty Roberts buckstop in use and been able to inspect the horse's mouth afterwards and I can honestly say that there was no reddening of the gums and certainly no sore spots! The same horse was looked at over the following days and it suffered no ill effects at all. But it was used properly and under instruction.
This sort of comment never fails to amuse me. :rolleyes:

If you think it doesn't hurt the horse try this test (which I also put on another MR thread but got no takers).......

Get a thin piece of rope IE: savvy string, place it between YOUR OWN top lip and gum line, lift the taut rope up at an angle...then throw your head down into it with as much force as you can....ok did that hurt???

Yes?, (I know it does because I've tried it)...now just imagine the force behind a full blown buck.

Then come back and tell me it it has no ill effect on the horse!!!:mad:

Sorry..I'm in a bad mood today. :o

zippytys

8th Nov 2007, 06:15 PM

Yikes! Whatever next?? soon there will be no need for any of us to have lessons because all horses will be so strapped down we wont need to be able to ride, just sit on them like a rocking horse!! I shudder to think of all those poor ponies out there that are bucking due to severe pain and then get one of these strapped on to them!! when will people learn??

Bad mood or not india, your point is very valid and i totally agree!!

JOJOBA

8th Nov 2007, 06:17 PM

If I slapped someone across the face then a few minutes later the redness would have gone down and there would be no obvious signs Id done it, but it would still have hurt them at the time and Im sure they'd agree it wasnt an enjoyable experience! They'd think twice before they did whatever it was that caused it again.

Even at the height of Jack's bucking issues I would never have considered something like this for a second.

xxx

chev

8th Nov 2007, 06:18 PM

Agree with Jojoba. It doesn't need to leave a mark or sore spots to hurt. If it didn't hurt, it wouldn't 'work'.

doris

8th Nov 2007, 06:37 PM

I think there is a difference between actual pain and discomfort. You can do the same test on your arm with a normal jointed snaffle and it will cause discomfort. I've even tested the feel of a normal bridle on my arm compared to that of a comfort bridle, and the ordinary bridle will actually weigh quite heavily on the poll area. But we all need to use bridles and bits.

I'm not pro the use of a buckstop, and I am also aware that there are other ways to deal with the problem and also the amount of time 'redness' would take to disappear. In the case that I quoted, the horse was looked at immediately. I cannot answer for all of you that have seen one being used, and no doubt many of you have before posting your comments.

But, I think there is just maybe some justification for using gadgets (much as I don't like them), if all else has failed, and in some cases, all other ways have failed, because it means that the horse can be brought back into use again instead of ending up at the slaughter house.

Nobody with any sense would or should use anything until they have had all the necessary checks done to ensure that there is no valid reason for a horse to be bucking in the first place.

india

8th Nov 2007, 10:08 PM

I think there is a difference between actual pain and discomfort. You can do the same test on your arm with a normal jointed snaffle and it will cause discomfort.
There certainly is a difference between pain and discomfort. The mouth is a very sensitive area, so to suggest that testing a bit out on your arm would give you the same result as if it where tested out in your own mouth is absurd. But an even worst comparison would be testing the buckstopper mechanics out in the same way and then comparing the discomfort you'd feel on your arm to the actual pain felt on the gumline....try it and see!!

But, I think there is just maybe some justification for using gadgets (much as I don't like them), if all else has failed, and in some cases, all other ways have failed, because it means that the horse can be brought back into use again instead of ending up at the slaughter house.
In my opinion, there's no justification for any gadget to be used, they're only there to get a quick fix.....it has nothing to do with the 'if all else has failed' theory. Most horse behaviour issues and problems are man made or caused by fear or pain and using a gadget only serves to increase the degree of the problem in the long term.

Restarting from the ground up is the best way to help any horse overcome a behaviour issue - get their trust and respect and your half way there.....no need for any type of gadget, especially a buckstopper!!!

Alyth Long

9th Nov 2007, 04:48 AM

Using a gadget to overcome a problem is dealing with the symptom instead of finding the cause and solving the problem.... .... ....

Denbenj

9th Nov 2007, 06:18 AM

Had a look through the website... quite scary looking gadgets they have:eek: If they ended up in the wrong hands they could cause some serious damage.. theres no regulations either..apart from a note of caution..I dont expect they would put the possible outcomes if used incorrectly as nobody would buy them!

I dont think I would 'invest' in one!

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 08:55 AM

But, I think there is just maybe some justification for using gadgets (much as I don't like them), if all else has failed, and in some cases, all other ways have failed, because it means that the horse can be brought back into use again instead of ending up at the slaughter house.

Nobody with any sense would or should use anything until they have had all the necessary checks done to ensure that there is no valid reason for a horse to be bucking in the first place.

I agree. If the horse is bucking as a result of learned behaviour and for no other reason and all physical causes have been eliminated then you have choices, spend as long as it takes trying to overcome the behavioural issue, retire or slaughter the horse, or try something like this, which will cause the horse a single moment of discomfort and break that cycle. It's the real world out there unfortunately, time, money and patience aren't limitless. Are people seriously saying they'd rather send a much loved horse to slaughter than use a gadget like this in the right circumstances?

I've also seen it in use, the horse tried to buck once and then didn't thereafter as it worked out instantly what the self inflicted consequence would be. It showed very little evidence of any discomfort after that buck, I've seen professional showjumpers horses expressing far more discomfort in their mouths at the end of their rounds. Horses are routinely put through pain and discomfort in the name of training and nobody bats an eye at it. As I have also posted before I'm aware of at least two horses that have been fixed long term by the buckstopper and gone on to lead useful and happy lives with their owners, it may be a 'quick fix' but in the right circumstances and the right hands it works.

I don't like to see something like this on general sale though, it's too easy for anyone with a problem to buy and use one when the horse might be bucking for a damn good reason, and that's bad.

doris

9th Nov 2007, 09:08 AM

India

This is a discussion thread and I feel that you are attacking me on a personal level, and not really reading or understanding my post, which is intended to help the discussion along and nothing else. I am certainly not being absurd and saying that gadgets are the same as trying a bit on your arm, of course they're not! Using words like absurd is quite rude I think, and totally unjustified. I was just pointing out another way of looking at things and another example (of discomfort), and I thought I'd put it plainly enough, but not so it seems. I have stated that I am not pro buckstopper, and will say so again so that perhaps everyone will get the message.
I know about gaining the trust etc - I am a TTEAM Practitioner P1 and I don't use gadgets. I am experienced, well read and well trained. With reference to the use of gadgets, as per my words quoted by you, I used words like 'think' and 'maybe' and I was hoping for some good discussion points to be added which may have helped the original poster who asked the question. Having seen the MR buckstopper in action, felt what it was made of and seen the effects etc. I thought it would be of genuine interest to those willing enough to listen. A horse person doesn't have to promote a particular gadget, method etc but should be open minded enough to take certain knowledge on board and learn about these things because it broadens the level of expertise. I am not a lover of some training methods, but I've taken the trouble to learn a bit about them.

There have been many buckstopper threads and they are always very controversial.

Some good and valid points from Yann.

india

9th Nov 2007, 09:33 AM

I agree. If the horse is bucking as a result of learned behaviour and for no other reason and all physical causes have been eliminated then you have choices, spend as long as it takes trying to overcome the behavioural issue, retire or slaughter the horse, or try something like this, which will cause the horse a single moment of discomfort and break that cycle. It's the real world out there unfortunately, time, money and patience aren't limitless. Are people seriously saying they'd rather send a much loved horse to slaughter than use a gadget like this in the right circumstances?
Time and patience doesn't cost anything and that's all anyone needs to help their horse overcome a behaviour issue. If owners can't find the time it takes then they're obviously depending on the buckstopper to get a quick fix.... irrespective of the pain and trauma the contraption causes the horse.
As far as I'm concerned Yann, there are NO right circumstances where the buckstopper would be an acceptable training tool, but if you'd feel comfortable allowing an RA to use one on your horse that's your choice.... but it's not the road I was prepared to go down.

Are people seriously saying they'd rather send a much loved horse to slaughter than use a gadget like this in the right circumstances?
Anyone who truly loved their horse would never dream of sending it to slaughter just because of a behaviour issue...they'd help him/her overcome the problem irrespective of how long this would take.

:(

india

9th Nov 2007, 09:52 AM

India

This is a discussion thread and I feel that you are attacking me on a personal level, and not really reading or understanding my post

As this is a discussion thread surely I'm entitled to question your opinion, theories and 'tests' on different tools and gadgets and likewise your entitled to do the same. ;)

If my posts appeared to be attacking you personally...then I apologise as this wasn't my intention, but the fact remains I do still question your testing procedures and would be very interested to read your views on mine.

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 10:15 AM

Time and patience doesn't cost anything

They do if the horse is on livery, or with a professional trainer. If people keep a horse to ride and enjoy their patience may eventually become exhausted if they can't cure the problem and they will want rid. That's just how it is.

Anyone who truly loved their horse would never dream of sending it to slaughter just because of a behaviour issue

No but they might rehome it as a companion or sell it cheap, and that might be the eventual outcome.

As far as I'm concerned Yann, there are NO right circumstances where the buckstopper would be an acceptable training tool

That's your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it.

but if you'd feel comfortable allowing an RA to use one on your horse that's your choice..

If push came to shove and all other avenues had been exhausted I daresay I would, if it meant my horse learned that it didn't need to buck out of habit any more and could resume a normal happy working life with me. My own experience of it, although very limited suggests that it's not nearly as horrendous as it sounds. Like I said plenty of stuff that's just as bad if not worse gets done to horses every day in the name of 'training'.

doris

9th Nov 2007, 10:40 AM

I don't quite know what testing procedures you're questioning India. I don't mind you questioning any theories but please do it nicely and politely. Perhaps I should not have used the bit/bridle testing thingy within the same context or sentence as the words pain? I think the jointed bit on the arm test and the bridle weight test are pretty common ones and are widely used just to demonstrate certain ways of feeling. Now that there are padded bridles around, if you hang both from your arm, the padded one will seem to be a lot more comfortable. It was not my intention to give the indication that they were on the same level as a buckstop.
If you pull anything tight enough it will cause discomfort and even pain, as with your savvy string. Is the same level of pain/discomfort we feel exactly the same that a horse will feel? I don't know, I'm not an animal scientist. But, a horse can feel a fly land on its body, so who knows. Something like the buckstop will only come into effect when the horse lowers its head to buck, so perhaps the horse will quickly learn not to do this. A quick fix? Yes, I suppose it is, but maybe it's better than no fix at all.

I suppose I'm trying to weigh up whether using a buckstop for one or two sessions might just save a horse from the slaughterhouse.

I think we all realise that there are horse owners out there that will not take the time and patience to retrain a horse with behavioural issues, and this is where an unfortunate animal will end up going from one dealer to another, and having been involved on a voluntary basis in horse welfare, I know what a heartrending sight this is.

india

9th Nov 2007, 11:12 AM

They do if the horse is on livery, or with a professional trainer. If people keep a horse to ride and enjoy their patience may eventually become exhausted if they can't cure the problem and they will want rid. That's just how it is.
The thing is, a behaviour problem rarely occurs suddenly unless it's pain or fear related.... it usually develops over a period of time and is often man made. Any owner who know his horse well, will note the slightest change in his/her behaviour, find the cause and nip it in the bud - either with or without help from a professional.

It's only when a problem is left to fester that it usually becomes an emergency and that's when some folks either turn to the buckstopper or another mechanical gadgets to 'cure' the problem. Maybe if these folk had took the time to listen to what their horse was trying to tell them in the first place...they wouldn't be in the position they're in now?

The trouble is, if these type of folk can't find the time to look for signs and changes in the horses behaviour to begin with, they're highly unlikely to bother trying to find time to help the horse overcome the problem.

Just my opinion....;)

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 11:28 AM

I agree with you. However in many cases those who are trying to help the horse aren't the same as those who caused the problem in the first place, it's possible to inherit issues or worse be duped into taking them on.

JOJOBA

9th Nov 2007, 11:42 AM

I can look at the two views here from both sides, from my own experiences.

Firstly;
However in many cases those who are trying to help the horse aren't the same as those who caused the problem in the first place, it's possible to inherit issues or worse be duped into taking them on.
YES. Take me as an example! The people who cause the problems are often not the ones who end up sorting them out.

Time and patience doesn't cost anything
Trust me, it really does. It costs you emotionally, it costs in vets bills, livery bills, trainers. I have worked out that SEPERATE to the cost of purchase, Jack has probably cost us around £7000+ this year. And Ive probably had 2 weeks riding out of him.

Anyone who truly loved their horse would never dream of sending it to slaughter just because of a behaviour issue...they'd help him/her overcome the problem irrespective of how long this would take.

I truly love my horse, but if his behaviour issue was so bad I couldnt ride him, no-one else could safely ride him, and I didnt think he was happy (even as a companion) - once Id exhausted all the options yes, I would have him pts. I would do everything in my power not to and to give him every chance, but if he was miserable ridden and miserable unridden, I would have to accept that his issues were unfixable and have him put down - anything else would be keeping him alive for my sake, not his.

Nobody with any sense would or should use anything until they have had all the necessary checks done
Therin lies the problem. I dont know about you, but I know a LOT of horsey people who dont have an ounce of sense. What about unhorsey parents, for instance? Pony has a saddle which is WAY too narrow and starts bucking. Horrified parents nip onto google, and find this amazing thing called the 'buckstop'. Pony suddenly finds itself ridden in a too tight saddle and every time it tries to say so, gets a good hard sock in the mouth. Problem fixed and little child can go off and ride every day again.
It's like draw reins - I think they possibly have their place in the world - in the hands of an experienced professional (who debatably shouldnt need them anyway, but that's a different argument) and not the general public. The general public (myself obviously included!) have far too much potential to use them completely wrongly.

When Jack first bucked me off I could have purchased MR's buckstopper, taught him that bucking meant an unpleasant pain in his mouth, and probably stopped him bucking. It would have saved me time and money, and maybe it would mean I would still have him now. He would be totally miserable and still in pain, but I wouldnt notice if I was that sort of person.

This is my issue with these gadgets - they are designed by professionals, but rarely seem to take into account the fact that it isnt going to be those professionals who ultimately buy them. Horses that buck are trying to say something - even if it is just 'Im a total monkey who knows bucking scares the pants off you'. But I would worry that the majority of people dont speak horse well enough, or with enough depth, to really know FOR SURE when a horse is acting from learned behaviour or when it is in pain. All the tests in the world would have to be done first - and how many people are going to shell out for that when a buckstopper costs £15?

xxx

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 11:55 AM

I could have purchased MR's buckstopper

You couldn't because MR doesn't market or sell them. The specific buckstop being discussed here is nothing to do with him.

and probably stopped him bucking

Being as he had serious physical issues from what I can remember you posting I doubt that using something like this would have fixed him, he'd have found some other way of expressing his unhappiness.

india

9th Nov 2007, 11:55 AM

I don't quite know what testing procedures you're questioning India. I don't mind you questioning any theories but please do it nicely and politely.
Doris, please don't patronise, it was your personal choice to interpret my posts the way you did!!

It's the test of the bit on your arm that I'm questioning, even if that test is widely used by many. The arm is a completely different shape to the horses mouth and the sensitivity is vastly different, so where's the comparison?

With the savvy string method the test is being performed in the same place the horse would suffer the pain...on the gumline. This is not intended to be personal so please don't take offence again...but why don't you try the test on yourself to experience what pain the horse must suffer by wearing the buckstopper.

A quick fix? Yes, I suppose it is, but maybe it's better than no fix at all.
At least we agree it's only a quick fix, but there other kinder ways of helping an habitual bucker overcome his problem without having to use a gadget that relies on fear and pain (that are possible causes of the problem in the first place).

;)

JOJOBA

9th Nov 2007, 11:56 AM

Sorry then, I could have purchased A buckstopper.

seeing as he had serious physical issues from what I can remember you posting I doubt that using something like this would have fixed him, he'd have found some other way of expressing his unhappiness.
Strapping him down in draw reins worked for 2 years, until I got him.

You've made me think of something interesting actually - since MR uses his buckstopper in public but doesnt market or sell them, is there not a risk of idiots making copies (or even making their own) which could do some serious damage?

xxx

india

9th Nov 2007, 11:58 AM

Nik-n-Kia

9th Nov 2007, 12:00 PM

It just looks like a bit attached diasy rein to me??????

would be ok to try and break the habit with but not for long term use.

I am talking about horses that do it out of habit and not pain of any discription.

Nikki xxxx

JOJOBA

9th Nov 2007, 12:07 PM

I am talking about horses that do it out of habit and not pain of any discription.

That's my problem (and a problem I faced with Jack) - how can we really be sure when it is habit rather than pain?

xxx

india

9th Nov 2007, 12:31 PM

...Trust me, it really does. It costs you emotionally, it costs in vets bills, livery bills, trainers. I have worked out that SEPERATE to the cost of purchase, Jack has probably cost us around £7000+ this year. And Ive probably had 2 weeks riding out of him.
Jo, believe me, I know exactly what emotions are involed with owning an habitual bucker.... my Beau used to be one!!

I was refering to personal time and patience spent on the horse not a professionals. I couldn't even begin to work out how many hours I've spent helping him overcome his problem, but this time didn't actually cost anything. Admittedly, I did have to pay professional NH fee's as well, but pro-rota, these amounted to roughly the same price as it would have cost to have weekly lessons.

:)

india

9th Nov 2007, 12:34 PM

That's my problem (and a problem I faced with Jack) - how can we really be sure when it is habit rather than pain?

xxx

Process of elimination in most cases.

JOJOBA

9th Nov 2007, 12:38 PM

That's my point - how many people can go down the route of the FULL process of elimination?

Just through PM on here I had people suggest to me over 15 things which could be wrong with Jack, all of which could only be confirmed by very expensive tests :rolleyes:.

I would be loathe to use anything which actually physically STOPS bucking (ie, by making the horse unable to buck), until I knew for sure that pain wasnt the cause. So I agree with you ;).

xxx

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 12:43 PM

You've made me think of something interesting actually - since MR uses his buckstopper in public but doesnt market or sell them, is there not a risk of idiots making copies (or even making their own) which could do some serious damage?

Of course, but that stands for anyone doing anything remotely difficult in the public eye, all you can do is make the 'don't try this at home' clear and trust that your audience are grown up and intelligent.

doris

9th Nov 2007, 05:36 PM

Oh dear India - I wasn't patronising you, or anything like that, but I do expect some courtesy whether you agree with things I say or not and like it or lump it, there is a right way and a wrong way of speaking to people. I've carefully re-read all my postings on this subject and have nothing to reproach myself for.

Maybe my use of the bit thingy was a pretty poor example of discomfort, but it was the only one I could think of at the time, so just ignore that if it makes this discussion any easier, as it perhaps wasn't relevant to this thread. My somewhat bad examples are not worthy of so much discussion. You do seem to be be insisting on getting on, and staying on the wrong side of what I say - I don't know why, as I'm sure I've never upset you on this board before, and I'm not trying to now.

I take your point about the savvy string, and yes, that can be put in the same position on a human being, whereas a bit cannot. Totally, totally much better example, but does it answer all the questions posted on here just because it causes pain to a human being?

Myself, and Yann, and a few others have brought up some good and interestiong points, that's not to say they are all correct, and that we all agree with them, but interesting thoughts for discussion. Please lets not all get bogged down because we don't all practice the same methods of horse training, horse management, horse therapy etc.

mayoguinness

9th Nov 2007, 06:26 PM

. But we all need to use bridles and bits.

Do we, cuz I've seen plenty of people who are competent at bitless/bridleless riding;)

This sort of comment never fails to amuse me. :rolleyes:

If you think it doesn't hurt the horse try this test (which I also put on another MR thread but got no takers).......

Get a thin piece of rope IE: savvy string, place it between YOUR OWN top lip and gum line, lift the taut rope up at an angle...then throw your head down into it with as much force as you can....ok did that hurt???

Yes?, (I know it does because I've tried it)...now just imagine the force behind a full blown buck.

Then come back and tell me it it has no ill effect on the horse!!!:mad:

Sorry..I'm in a bad mood today. :o

I've just tried it(had a savvy string on me for once) and your right it hurt like hell:eek:
Oh dear India - I wasn't patronising you, or anything like that, but I do expect some courtesy whether you agree with things I say or not and like it or lump it, there is a right way and a wrong way of speaking to people. I've carefully re-read all my postings on this subject and have nothing to reproach myself for.

Maybe my use of the bit thingy was a pretty poor example of discomfort, but it was the only one I could think of at the time, so just ignore that if it makes this discussion any easier, as it perhaps wasn't relevant to this thread. My somewhat bad examples are not worthy of so much discussion. You do seem to be be insisting on getting on, and staying on the wrong side of what I say - I don't know why, as I'm sure I've never upset you on this board before, and I'm not trying to now.

I take your point about the savvy string, and yes, that can be put in the same position on a human being, whereas a bit cannot. Totally, totally much better example, but does it answer all the questions posted on here just because it causes pain to a human being?

Myself, and Yann, and a few others have brought up some good and interestiong points, that's not to say they are all correct, and that we all agree with them, but interesting thoughts for discussion. Please lets not all get bogged down because we don't all practice the same methods of horse training, horse management, horse therapy etc.

I couldn't see anything wrong or offensive in indias replys:confused:

india

9th Nov 2007, 06:48 PM

Doris, I'm really at a loss as to why you think I'm constantly trying to get on the wrong side of everything you say, I've already apologised for the post you took offence at (even though it wasn't my intention to offend you in the first place). In my last reply to you, I answered the query you put to me regarding what tests I was refering to...as far as I'm aware I answered this query politely, courtesly and in my opinion also made valid points...we even agreed the buckstopper only produces a 'quick fix'. :)

As the savvy string test causes pain in the human being, then the buckstopper must produce intense pain to a horse when his weight from a full blown buck is thrown against it. Although the test doesn't answer every question on this thread, it certainly goes a long way in confirming just how severe the gadget actually is.

I've also read and replied to quite a few interesting posts on this thread and hopefully contributed some myself. ;)

Yann

9th Nov 2007, 07:01 PM

Nik-n-Kia

9th Nov 2007, 07:13 PM

Why has this thread got dead personal all of a sudden????

I cant see anything wrong with anything that has been said???:confused:

I agree with the not causing too much pain and there are things out there that do this but people think are perfectly ok to use.

A jab in gob wont sort out major problems but it might make a horse think twice!!!

Some gadgets I agree with as I am using one at the mo but causing pain I dont agree with.

Nikki xxxx

SLW

9th Nov 2007, 07:37 PM

CurlyWurlyRach

9th Nov 2007, 07:47 PM

I cant see the piccies - could someone post me a pic of the RearStop?

CurlyWurlyRach

9th Nov 2007, 07:56 PM

Anyone who truly loved their horse would never dream of sending it to slaughter just because of a behaviour issue...they'd help him/her overcome the problem irrespective of how long this would take.

:(

Thats not totally fair - my horse is supposed to have been shot (thank god for bent dealers who sell them on the sly!!) as she was regared as dangerous and hurt that owner very badly - they were honestly afraid she would kill someone or be constantly passed around cos of her temprement (which she was until i got her), having her killed seemed the kindest thing to do.

I personally dislike gadgets BUT im open minded enough to never say never for every horse. My horse cant handle most gadgets as she has a stupidly sensitive mouth BUT my friends horse works well in a market harborough and it makes him safe enough to hack out.

PinkGlamourGurl

9th Nov 2007, 08:02 PM

...

Nik-n-Kia

9th Nov 2007, 08:03 PM

9 out of 10 problems in a horse are due to fault of the rider (unless there is a physical problem with the horse).
Maybe some riders need to take a look at themselves before cranking the horses heads into position with a gadget.
I am not a fan of gadgets at all and don't believe any of them have a use. Nothing beats free lunging and a good bond between horse and rider.
Why use any gadget??

Well I beg to differ really!!!

I would NOT have been able to build up Kias back muscles enough to take a saddle by just lunging alone. He went around with his head in the air because he had found it easier to move this way when he out his back and pelvis out when he fell in the trailer.

He could not allow himself to relax enough to lower his head and in the beginning even found grazing difficult even though his back and pelvis had been fixed. He had a big lump of muscle that he had built up because he went around with his head in the air.

I am GLAD that I have my harbridge as he now doesnt need it because he knows that it is ok to lower his head and he doesnt have any pain. He was shown and went into a lovely outline easily before his accident.

And before you go off the deep end and say I only did this to make him look better in the show ring he is still only getting ridden once or twice a week even though he is perfectly sound and fit. He is not being asked to go in an outline yet either as he is still a bit unbalanced in canter.

Gadgets when used properly and sympathetically can have wonderful result with no detrimantal effects on the horse.

Side reins can be classed as a 'gadget' too.

Nikki xxxx

CurlyWurlyRach

9th Nov 2007, 08:12 PM

9 out of 10 problems in a horse are due to fault of the rider (unless there is a physical problem with the horse).

So deep-rooted problems from the horses past are not legitimate then?

PinkGlamourGurl

9th Nov 2007, 08:13 PM

Monty Roberts said

"I've got people who are critical off it (buckstopper) and say I shouldnt use it but theres people all over the world that have been bucked off and paralysed and dead people in the ground that have been bucked off"

IMO there are times and places for gadgets like this. Last resorts. The horse MR was using it on was unrideable and by the end of the night his rider was on him and cantering around.

Its stupid for people to say patience costs nothing, it costs a hell of a lot when you're paying livery/schooling fees. I dont see the buck stopper as a quick fix, I see it as one last attempt to sort the horse out.

Nik-n-Kia

9th Nov 2007, 08:16 PM

Yup there is NO SUCH THING!!!!!

I mean curly's probs are all your Rach :rolleyes:;)

Shocking isnt it!!!:rolleyes::D

Nikki xxxx

SLW

9th Nov 2007, 08:53 PM

Well I beg to differ really!!!

Side reins can be classed as a 'gadget' too.

Nikki xxxx

Can I just say, when I said "Free lunging", this means just off of a lunge cavesson so no side reins.

I am sorry but this is a forum and eveyone is entitled to their views. I have shared mine with you and do not appreciate the way you have worded your posts. I am not pointing the finger at anyone, just stating how I see things. My views are expressed from my methods which are very successful and I have been rehabilitating horses for many years. The way I do things is not going to be the way everyone does things but that doesn't mean I do not have the right to express my opinions, it's called freedom of speech. If you don't like my views, just ignore my posts rather than attacking me.
I am not dismissing gadgets alltogether. All horses are individual and should be trated that way. I have used a couple of what I call "non restrictive" training aids in the past, but defo would not now as I have seen the damage they can do.

jumpingkatey

9th Nov 2007, 10:37 PM

i wouldn't use that!!

india

9th Nov 2007, 10:53 PM

Fair point, but doing something to ourselves doesn't automatically prove that the horse experiences it in exactly the same way. The horse I saw buck into the buckstop didn't throw it's head around or try to reverse out of the discomfort, it just looked surprised and you could literally see it thinking carefully about whether to try another buck or not. Severe pain causes violent reactions in horses and that isn't what I saw. I know that doesn't prove anything categorically either, but I do think it's a point worth making.

Not in all cases but in this instant I think it does Yann. Like humans, the horses mouth is full of nerve endings...especially in their lips and gums. Even MR states the gadget should only be used as a last resort, so doesn't that in itself suggests it's quite severe?

Each buckstopper clip I've watched shows MR driving the horses forward and when they attempt to buck, he drives them more. From what I've seen, the horses never appeared to have an opportunity to either reverse or show any type of reactions immediately after any buck.

Maybe MR doesn't follow the same procedure every time? :confused:

india

9th Nov 2007, 11:12 PM

Thats not totally fair - my horse is supposed to have been shot (thank god for bent dealers who sell them on the sly!!) as she was regared as dangerous and hurt that owner very badly - they were honestly afraid she would kill someone or be constantly passed around cos of her temprement (which she was until i got her), having her killed seemed the kindest thing to do.

But do you know what caused your horse to hurt his previous owner so badly that she feared he would eventually kill somebody? Had he ever shown signs of a behaviour problem before...if he had, how was the issue addressed? More to the point, would you ever consider having him shot just because of his behaviour problems?

I can understand and admire the courage some people have when they decide to have their horse pts because it's got a behaviour issue plus either a serious injury or progressive ailment..but I'm afraid I'd find it very difficult to understand why anyone would choose to have their much loved horse pts because of their problem, rather than helping them overcome it.

Again, just my opinion. ;)

india

9th Nov 2007, 11:44 PM

Monty Roberts said

"I've got people who are critical off it (buckstopper) and say I shouldnt use it but theres people all over the world that have been bucked off and paralysed and dead people in the ground that have been bucked off"
According to MR's statement, there doesn't appear to be any other way to teach a horse to stop bucking except by using a buckstopper.

True...there are some seriously wrecked folk out there, there's also lot's of other training methods that help the horse overcome exactly the same problem....but he won't tell you about those.;)

IMO there are times and places for gadgets like this. Last resorts. The horse MR was using it on was unrideable and by the end of the night his rider was on him and cantering around.

Its stupid for people to say patience costs nothing, it costs a hell of a lot when you're paying livery/schooling fees. I dont see the buck stopper as a quick fix, I see it as one last attempt to sort the horse out.
In my opinion, there's no time or place for any gadget that's used to produce pain to get a result. These type of gadgets only mask the issue, they don't address the problem.

Maybe stupid in some folks minds, but as mentioned earlier - I was refering to the owners time and patience. but even so, isn't it worse if you carry on paying schooling fees and still get no results? With a good NH instructor and plenty of time and patience, any horse should begin to show small signs of improvement within the first few weeks.;)

colettybetty

10th Nov 2007, 12:25 AM

I'm with Yann on this one. Having seen MR use one and listening to his reasoning and the circumstances in which it would be used. Its not supposed to be a quick fix instead of using other methods. Its the last chance method when everything else has been tried and pain issues ruled out.For seriously dangerous horses, where the alternative is being PTS - or being sold on to a new unsuspecting buyer. If my daughter had a new horse that suddenly exploded in a frenzy of horseapaults and she broke her back, think I'd be wishing someone had used the buckstop, followed up with training before selling on.

Bay Mare

10th Nov 2007, 06:39 AM

Having seen MR use one and listening to his reasoning and the circumstances in which it would be used. Its not supposed to be a quick fix instead of using other methods. Its the last chance method when everything else has been tried and pain issues ruled out.For seriously dangerous horses, where the alternative is being PTS - or being sold on to a new unsuspecting buyer. If my daughter had a new horse that suddenly exploded in a frenzy of horseapaults and she broke her back, think I'd be wishing someone had used the buckstop, followed up with training before selling on.

I agree. When I first heard of the Buck Stop I was very anti, it looks and sounds horrific. As others have said, though, Monty isn't recommending it's use on every horse that bucks just like he doesn't recommend Join Up for every horse with an issue.

On rare occasions the problems are just too entrenched so if this gadget can help a horse who is on borrowed time then so be it. It's a bit like draw reins, I wouldn't want everyone using them all of the time but for the truly remedial horse who has run the gamut of tests and retraining it surely has to be worth a try.

Ideally we wouldn't do anything remotely negative to our horses and if we didn't screw them up to start with there wouldn't be any need. As others have pointed out, though, it's not usually the people who screwed them up who end up sorting them out! Time, patience and kind but firm handling can go a very long way but there's a small minority where it can be beneficial to be cruel to be kind.

Things like the 'patience post' are much more reprehensible to me.

Yann

10th Nov 2007, 07:10 AM

In my opinion, there's no time or place for any gadget that's used to produce pain to get a result. These type of gadgets only mask the issue, they don't address the problem.

Thing is in the correct circumstances it does address the problem, if that problem is a pattern of learned behaviour, the original causes of which have been eliminated. I would much rather see no pain or discomfort caused to horses in training them, and the time taken that's needed to deal with issues with kindness and patience, but this is real life and we are talking about a tool of last resort. From what I've seen MR does use a variety of other methods to work with bucking horses, but I have to admit some of the justifications I've heard him use in demos regarding keeping his demo rider safe etc are a little tenuous though.

india

10th Nov 2007, 10:27 AM

Ideally we wouldn't do anything remotely negative to our horses and if we didn't screw them up to start with there wouldn't be any need. As others have pointed out, though, it's not usually the people who screwed them up who end up sorting them out! Time, patience and kind but firm handling can go a very long way but there's a small minority where it can be beneficial to be cruel to be kind.

Things like the 'patience post' are much more reprehensible to me.

I agree, in an ideal world we wouldn't have these type of problems to sort out in the first place. However, as I've already mentioned, my Beau came with excess baggage courtesy of his previous owner and did a grand job of totally wrecking my confidence. There where different options open on how I could deal with the problem, and after checking out various methods of training, I chose to go down the pain free retraining route....I wasn't prepared to allow a trainer to intentionally inflict pain on him to 'cure' his problem....my view was and still is, any horse can overcome this problem without the need of such a severe gadget.

I'm not quite sure what 'patience post' your refering to or why you should think it's much more unacceptable, could you explain in more detail please.:confused:

lizzy

10th Nov 2007, 10:36 AM

Hi India

I am interested to know how you cured your bucker, Adam likes to throw one in every now and again, but it is something I live with.

india

10th Nov 2007, 10:46 AM

Hi India

I am interested to know how you cured your bucker, Adam likes to throw one in every now and again, but it is something I live with.

We intially established what the probable cause was for his bucking then worked slowly on regaining his confidence from the ground up. Basically he was restarted from scratch....it took around eighteen months for him to become a completely safe ride, but it was well worth the time and patience.

I'll pm more details to you later if your interested. :)

lizzy

10th Nov 2007, 10:53 AM

Hi Yes I would be thanks

juejue

10th Nov 2007, 05:55 PM

It just looks like a bit attached diasy rein to me??????

Nikki xxxx

exactly what i thought when i saw it, and strike me down instantly but we use a daisy rein on my daughters pony because he is a smart little sod and knows full well that he can put his head down and evade her and she is too small to pull him back up.
I don't particularly like the thing but without it she can't get anywhere with him, in all other respects he is a great little pony, as bombproof as they come, not a bucker ,rearer, kicker or biter so we don't want to sell him on, i can ride him and he doesn't attempt it as he knows he can't. so sorry but in this case i think the gadget is the answer, if someone has a better suggestion i'd like to hear it, :)

doris

10th Nov 2007, 06:20 PM

...

Nik-n-Kia

10th Nov 2007, 07:18 PM

Can I just say, when I said "Free lunging", this means just off of a lunge cavesson so no side reins.

I am sorry but this is a forum and eveyone is entitled to their views. I have shared mine with you and do not appreciate the way you have worded your posts. I am not pointing the finger at anyone, just stating how I see things. My views are expressed from my methods which are very successful and I have been rehabilitating horses for many years. The way I do things is not going to be the way everyone does things but that doesn't mean I do not have the right to express my opinions, it's called freedom of speech. If you don't like my views, just ignore my posts rather than attacking me.
I am not dismissing gadgets alltogether. All horses are individual and should be trated that way. I have used a couple of what I call "non restrictive" training aids in the past, but defo would not now as I have seen the damage they can do.

You have have summed it up nicely!!!

It is a public forum. I can word my posts exactly how I like.

I never once said your name, and I did start with 'I beg to differ' which you picked out of that post.:rolleyes:

I am ENTITLED to MY opinion. As long as I not being agressive in posting I dont really mind how people take my posts. If anyone was being aggressive then it certainly wasnt me. It is a free web and not everyone likes what they see on the web.

You were the one damning everyone who has ever used such things on their horses.

Oh and I never said YOU used sidereins ;)

Nikki xxxx

SLW

10th Nov 2007, 08:05 PM

You have have summed it up nicely!!!

You were the one damning everyone who has ever used such things on their horses.

Nikki xxxx

How exactly have I done this?? I haven't stated any names, I said in general maybe riders should look at themselves before using gadgets, as in check that the rider isn't doing anything to affect the horses way of going before fixing their head into position. "gadgets" should be used as a last resort is what I am trying to make clear and again, if you do not like my posts, just don't respond to them. - end of

Nik-n-Kia

10th Nov 2007, 08:09 PM

I just like how you pick out certain things in my posts.:rolleyes:

Not interested in having an online debate with you really.

You went off the deep end and took offence to a post that YOU felt was specifically directed at you. It wasnt. I would have mentioned you by name if it was.

You can take what you like from my posts I dont mind :)

End of discussion. :)

Nikki xxxxx

SLW

10th Nov 2007, 08:16 PM

Esther.D

10th Nov 2007, 09:24 PM

Just a little reminder to all that the mods are watching this thread with interest, so please all be polite and agree to differ :) All have freedom of speech here but that does not include attacking other members, whether by name or implication.

JOJOBA

10th Nov 2007, 11:00 PM

It is a public forum. I can word my posts exactly how I like as long as I am not swearing.

Is that true mods? :confused: Im not saying I think you were being offensive N+K, Ive been doing work rather than reading this thread so havent seen what has gone on the last page or so, but I think it's possible to be incredibly rude without swearing at all - I dont think simply not swearing means that you arent being offensive.

xxx

Nik-n-Kia

10th Nov 2007, 11:05 PM

I was being literal Jo.

I just felt that my post were not offensive as they were not aimed at amyone in particular. I felt that my posts were getting taken out of context really.

Not really interested in this anymore. I was interested in the whole buck stop thing just as I hadnt seen it really.

Nikki xxx

MelanieD

10th Nov 2007, 11:25 PM

I don't think its a good thing to be selling that kind of gadget to anyone with a credit card but don't see so much of a problem with an experienced professional using it in the right circumstances. By right circumstances i mean pain has been elimiated as much as possible and trying to ride the horse through it without a buckstop has failed. And it should be used to stop the horse bucking long enough to think and realise having someone up there isn't so bad, not as a long term thing worn every time the horse is ridden.

People do get seriously hurt by bucking horses and horses do end up canned for it. I'd rather a horse get one yank in the gums than end up at the pedigree chum factory. I keep my horses whether they can be ridden or not but not everyone has that attitude and realistically a rideable horse is much more likely to have a secure future should something happen to its owner.

If I'm riding a horse that bucks then I'll try to keep the head up with the reins to stop real 'head between knees' type rodeo broncs and if pony gets a yank in the teeth trying to buck, tough. A buckstop is almost better than that since its timing isn't dependent on the rider's hands and is softer than a bit. Plus is does nothing at all to bother the horse if it isn't trying to throw head down to buck.

LodgeRopes

11th Nov 2007, 03:01 AM

Hi all and especially the moderators that may be watching :0)
(I have always admired the wonderful and thankless job done by forum moderators, in fact there should be a National Holiday declared to honour Moderators and their friends, families and horses.....errrr is that laying it on toooo thick????? I thought I may have gone too far, we all know moderators dont have friends....lol)

If i put any of these devices on our 'problem child ' pinto, he would head for the nearest tree to knock me off, if that didnt work, regardless of pain, he would go up and over... he only gives one warning, then he throws himself on the ground in a hissy fit....lol :0) At that stage I call him a "girlie man" in my best Arnie voice and walk home...lol.
In his defence, this is the pinto in the pic, he performs well with or without bit or halter and is a gentleman... but once having tasted conditioned response training that allowed him the freedom of choice, he wont go back to any form of physical restraint....... honestly, why should he?

Rob

Denbenj

11th Nov 2007, 05:42 AM

ohh found a vid using it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av6PJhBsXcU

AengusOg

11th Nov 2007, 06:25 AM

That looks like one extremely dangerous horse you have there, LodgeRopes.

Did you allow him to become like that, or did you get him that way?

Crystal Fire

11th Nov 2007, 09:20 AM

Turn my back for a couple of days and look what a huge discussion I've missed! Try to be friends again folks. :)
I think it's a shame that the buckstop refered to in the original post is on sale, but a lot of severe gadgets are on sale and that's not ever going to be stopped. Things will only change for the people who take the time to educate themselves in other ways of approaching problems.
I've thought long and hard about clinicians and trainers who use severe or drastic methods in demos. I think that if they have already spent time using their normal methods to solve the problem then that might just be justified in claiming they have to go for a "last resort". But of course they haven't, because they aren't around long enough to do so. I don't think any trainer can claim a horse is "last resort" on the say-so of a third party, even if it's the owner. You need to work with the horse yourself and come to your own conclusions before you do that. I've met several "last resort" horses who had been to supposedly expert trainers who were no such thing.
If you allow yourself to be forced to use severe methods in a demo because otherwise the horse will be sent for slaughter then you are being emotionally blackmailed.
There are many many trainers worldwide who can help bucking horses without using gadgets like a buckstop - ever.
So taking this into account, my conclusion about Monty Roberts using his buckstop in demos is that he isn't really that bothered about it. If he thought it was an awful tool then he'd recommend that the owners sent the horse to one of his trainers who was able to sort out the problem, and refuse to be pushed into a quick fix. Does that make sense? However, we know that many of Monty's trainers would also be comfortable using the Monty buckstopper as a training aid... so either they don't have the skills to deal with a bucking horse without, or they don't see it as a particularly awful gadget.

india

11th Nov 2007, 12:06 PM

Thing is in the correct circumstances it does address the problem, if that problem is a pattern of learned behaviour, the original causes of which have been eliminated.
If the problem originally stemmed from pain caused by continually being ridden in a badly fitting saddle but still constantly persisted after a period of rest (and then only ridden in a made to measure saddle and once back checks completed)...would this not be an example of learned behaviour - an habitual habit?

If so, I'm finding it very difficult to understand how the buckstopper could address this problem...the horse is behaving and reacting in the way he does from the memory of pain and discomfort he's experienced in the past - even though the cause has been eliminated, he still associates being tacked up and ridden with pain.

How could the buckstopper address the problem, when the whole intention of the gadget is to cause the horse pain to break the pattern of behaviour? :confused:

LodgeRopes

12th Nov 2007, 03:23 AM

AengusOg...
I think his hissy fits are all his own work...... i hope that Sharon did not train him to act like that with me...lol :0)

Only joking, we have tested so much gear on this horse over the years he accepts anything.....for a while, then he gives an honest opinion (which is what we are really after). We made an offer on him to prevent him going to the knackery as he reared, bolted, bit and stomped....the previous owners had resorted to using a spanish snaffle upside down so the port compressed the tongue, martingale, head check and some other piece of tack that we had never seen before. We took him back to square one, played the 7 games, halter groundwork, hackamore riding, Lyons conditioned response reining in a plain snaffle bit, then finally back to just a rope halter for pleasure hack outs these days...
he is a gem....and he will always remain on our property despite some ridiculous cash offers for him.
I jokingly put him down and make fun of his hissy fits and sarcastic sense of humour, but he is a good mate and since I got trampled by a young colt earlier this year, this Pinto escorts me everywhere in the paddocks to make sure i'm OK, he will even leave his feed bucket to accompany me.

Rob

goeslikestink

12th Nov 2007, 05:41 AM

I suppose all gadgets should be used with care, and preferably only under qualified instruction.

You can shoot me down for this - but, I have seen the Monty Roberts buckstop in use and been able to inspect the horse's mouth afterwards and I can honestly say that there was no reddening of the gums and certainly no sore spots! The same horse was looked at over the following days and it suffered no ill effects at all. But it was used properly and under instruction.

well i hadnt seen it but heard of it,, of course theres no redding of the gums
as puts pressure on the bridge of the nose and poll/ neck

its not a training tool i would use,
i hate these so called quick fixs gadgets they oly make problems far worsr than what they was, what happened to find find the cause and sort the problem
i have had horses that buck and go them out of it
what happened to sit the trantrum, ie raise your bum of the saddle slightly in a x/c position so when you feel the horse is going to buck you off the saddle already so he cant buck you off then sit down hard and push him on

doris

12th Nov 2007, 09:16 AM

well i hadnt seen it but heard of it,, of course theres no redding of the gums
as puts pressure on the bridge of the nose and poll/ neck

its not a training tool i would use,
i hate these so called quick fixs gadgets they oly make problems far worsr than what they was, what happened to find find the cause and sort the problem
i have had horses that buck and go them out of it
what happened to sit the trantrum, ie raise your bum of the saddle slightly in a x/c position so when you feel the horse is going to buck you off the saddle already so he cant buck you off then sit down hard and push him on

I think you may be thinking of a different sort of gadget to the one I reported on? There's nothing on the bridge of the nose in the MR buckstop so perhaps you are thinking of another sort of thing altogether. If you read some of the other posts, you will see where the 'gum' thing comes in.

india

12th Nov 2007, 12:45 PM

Is it possible that someone could reply to this post please - it is a genuine query. :)

If the problem originally stemmed from pain caused by continually being ridden in a badly fitting saddle but still constantly persisted after a period of rest (and then only ridden in a made to measure saddle and once back checks completed)...would this not be an example of learned behaviour - an habitual habit?

If so, I'm finding it very difficult to understand how the buckstopper could address this problem...the horse is behaving and reacting in the way he does from the memory of pain and discomfort he's experienced in the past - even though the cause has been eliminated, he still associates being tacked up and ridden with pain.

How could the buckstopper address the problem, when the whole intention of the gadget is to cause the horse pain to break the pattern of behaviour? :confused:

Thanks :)

Yann

12th Nov 2007, 01:22 PM

To be honest I thought I'd already explained my understanding of how it would work in an earlier post. If the horse's response to having a rider on had become so ingrained that progressive desensitisation wasn't having an effect (the only cases where you should even remotely consider using anything like this IMHO), then using this sort of device a) makes bucking the less desirable option for the horse and b) allows the horse to realise that being ridden isn't going to hurt and it doesn't need to act defensively any more.

Whether those one or two bashes in the mouth the horse will inflict with perfect timing are justified against a lifetime of utility if using it works is the question, and only personal values and circumstances will answer that as far as I can see.

india

12th Nov 2007, 03:09 PM

...b) allows the horse to realise that being ridden isn't going to hurt and it doesn't need to act defensively any more.

Sorry this is short but I haven't got much time at the minutue....

This is the part I can't understand, as far as I can see, the buckstopper only confirms to the horse that being ridden IS going to hurt. Addressing the memory of pain with pain can never be the answer in my opinion.

MelanieD

12th Nov 2007, 03:39 PM

Yann

12th Nov 2007, 03:52 PM

Exactly, in a nutshell it's the bucking that hurts, not the being ridden.

goeslikestink

12th Nov 2007, 05:01 PM

I think you may be thinking of a different sort of gadget to the one I reported on? There's nothing on the bridge of the nose in the MR buckstop so perhaps you are thinking of another sort of thing altogether. If you read some of the other posts, you will see where the 'gum' thing comes in.

then explain why it has an attachment across the lower nose and goes the whole lenght of the sisnus to the poll then attaches to the saddle
that is stopping a horse from breathing so of course it would stop bucking
as many ways of control -- from the bridge-- ie like a drop nose band
to the lenght of where the bridge is-- ie nose attachment to the poll
so the horse cant work from his poll to a relax yaw
this is just tucking him up in head- and acts like the old fasion bearing reinsto keep a horses head up

not nice as this hurts horse iside and outside of his head and neck --

leviskipperette

12th Nov 2007, 05:14 PM

i skipped around a little so i dont mean to repeat things.

but what if it is the riding that does hurt, like said before a bad fitting saddle, or a bad back. the horse could start showing his discomfort with other behaviors. you might have fixed the buck, but he could start to rear now. then you might go out and buy the gadget to stop rearing, you could strap the entire horse down and hell still have the issue but no way to object.

it would make more sense to me to look at the root cause, it might be even cheaper than having to buy a million gadgets.

it probably works in some cases though. although i dont like them, they have a place.

oh, and isnt this just like a check rein? these are on just about every driving harness ive ever come across, not that you have to use them though.

india

12th Nov 2007, 05:30 PM

The buckstop only inflicts pain if the horse is bucking.. if the horse then decides that bucking is a bad idea and doesn't do it again it causes no pain at all and that lack of wanting to buck and get another yank in the gums might give the horse an opportunity to realise that the saddle and rider aren't so bad and don't cause it pain.

But is that addressing or masking the problem?

The horse is acting upon pain being inflicted by the buckstopper each time he attempts to buck, so effectively this gadget is only masking the problem to get a quick fix - not actually addressing what caused the problem in the first place.

Sure, the horse will probably stop bucking through fear of receiving another unbearable jolt of pain in his mouth for his actions, but how long will it last before he either reverts back to bucking or another vice appears caused by the suppression?

The last thing any horse needs who's already got a fear of pain problem is a trainer that would use a gadget that intentionally inflicts pain to 'cure' it. There's plenty others good trainers around who get the same results without the need of such gadgets.

Thanks for your replies, but so far I haven't read anything that will convince me otherwise.

:)

Sam (aka SLW)

12th Nov 2007, 06:33 PM

But is that addressing or masking the problem?

The last thing any horse needs who's already got a fear of pain problem is a trainer that would use a gadget that intentionally inflicts pain to 'cure' it. There's plenty others good trainers around who get the same results without the need of such gadgets.

:)

This is exactly what I was trying to get across before I got insulted by other members :eek: I do not use "gadgets" and I have retrained many horses with my methods.

AengusOg

12th Nov 2007, 07:36 PM

As far as I can see from this very long debate, almost everyone seemed to assume that pain is the reason for this particular horse bucking. What if the horse has put in a buck at some point and the rider has been so unsettled by this that they immediately dismounted and put the horse back in field/stable?

I was riding a young, green horse some years ago and, just as he went into canter, I lost a stirrup which bounced off his ribs before I could regain it. He put in a big buck and leapt forward with such force that I nearly went out the back door. When I sorted myself out and got my foot back in the stirrup, I had to ride him through another couple of bucks till he calmed down. I never new him to buck again in ten years of owning him.

My point is.....if I'd taken fright that day and quit at that first buck, would he have become a habitual bucker, and could he have been subsequently cured by a tool such as the one described here?.

It's not always pain which makes a badly-behaved horse; horses discover all sorts of ways to avoid work.........this may be what we are witnessing here.

india

12th Nov 2007, 08:16 PM

As far as I can see from this very long debate, almost everyone seemed to assume that pain is the reason for this particular horse bucking.

No assumption here AengusOg...this is a case study of my own horse.

;)

Just to add....every horse bucks for a reason, although it's usually through pain or fear it's sometimes through bad riding - this is why riding through a buck isn't always the best option.

india

12th Nov 2007, 08:29 PM

This is exactly what I was trying to get across before I got insulted by other members :eek: I do not use "gadgets" and I have retrained many horses with my methods.

Welcome back SLW :)

Yann

12th Nov 2007, 08:34 PM

Thanks for your replies, but so far I haven't read anything that will convince me otherwise.

I don't think anyone is trying to convince you, your views are fair enough. It may seem otherwise but I'm no advocate of the buckstopper myself either, I can just see that it might have its place in some circumstances.

The horse is acting upon pain being inflicted by the buckstopper each time he attempts to buck, so effectively this gadget is only masking the problem to get a quick fix - not actually addressing what caused the problem in the first place.

What caused the problem in the first place, pain, fear and bad riding should have already been dealt with. What the buckstopper would address is a deeply entrenched reaction to being mounted, and from what I can gather the horse normally only ever bucks into once or twice the first time it's used, not every time. It's kept there whilst the horse is ridden but doing nothing over a few weeks and then gradually phased out as the temptation to buck out of habit is overcome. I don't see that anything is being masked, it's just one means of convincing the horse that life with humans can actually be OK.

Nik-n-Kia

12th Nov 2007, 08:38 PM

I honestly dont understand this thread at all!!!!!

Some 'gadgets' (for want of a better word) actually benefit horses. If they didnt then why would so many top class riders and trainers use them?? I do understand that some riders out there use horrific methods (cough ROLLKUR cough) to get results but these inevitably fail in the long run due to the damage inflicted.

Does it matter if the 'gadgets' are classed as NH or not???:confused:

I mean is this a result of the picture of the original buck stopper or are we talking about something different altogether???

But because this item causes pain is that a good reason to slam other things??? I mean there are really severe things out there that are used everyday and there are things that people also use everyday that actually help and dont cause the horse any pain when used correctly.

As I posted before I have used certain items and have found that with a little bit of care, consideration and good sense that these items have helped Kia enormously and I now have a happy horse that is not in any pain BECAUSE I used the items.

Just because some people personally dont use the 'gadgets' available doesnt mean that they are all useless, cruel or damaging.

Nikki xxxx

india

12th Nov 2007, 09:11 PM

it's just one means of convincing the horse that life with humans can actually be OK.
Exactly my point Yann, using the buckstopper is just one means of getting a result (although I must disagree that it convinces the horse humans are ok).

In my opinion, there are better options out there.

:)

india

12th Nov 2007, 09:43 PM

I mean is this a result of the picture of the original buck stopper or are we talking about something different altogether???

I think Monty Roberts buckstopper has mainly taken over this thread. It's much more severe than the one in the picture.

But because this item causes pain is that a good reason to slam other things???
I don't use any type of gadgets on my horses, I don't think they're needed - but that's my personal choice and if others find certain non-painful gadgets a useful tool to put in their toolbox then fine.....each to their own.

It's the gadgets that cause intense pain and distress to a horse, whether they're used in the name of training or reschooling by either a professional or amateur are the one's I'm totally against.

That help? :)

Yann

12th Nov 2007, 10:09 PM

In my opinion, there are better options out there.

Like I said, I don't disagree with you :)

AengusOg

13th Nov 2007, 07:17 AM

No assumption here AengusOg...this is a case study of my own horse.

;)

Just to add....every horse bucks for a reason, although it's usually through pain or fear it's sometimes through bad riding - this is why riding through a buck isn't always the best option.

India

I missed the point at which this became a case study of your own horse, I reread the posts and enlightened myself though.

However, I also found that in post number 62 of this discussion, when asked by lizzzy how you cured your bucker, you stated that you 'initially established what the probable cause was for him bucking'....

Then, when I made the point that it's not always pain which causes a horse to buck, and that that seemed to be the general assumption, you made the above quote in reply.

Did you not, by establishing the 'probable cause', make an assumption yourself; an assumption which you then based your retraining of the horse upon; an assumption which was just that, and by its nature, may not have been the real reason for the cause of your horse bucking at all!.

Just for the record, I could not condone the use of pain in the training/retraining of horses. Sometimes riding through a buck is the best option.

doris

13th Nov 2007, 08:29 AM

then explain why it has an attachment across the lower nose and goes the whole lenght of the sisnus to the poll then attaches to the saddle
that is stopping a horse from breathing so of course it would stop bucking
as many ways of control -- from the bridge-- ie like a drop nose band
to the lenght of where the bridge is-- ie nose attachment to the poll
so the horse cant work from his poll to a relax yaw
this is just tucking him up in head- and acts like the old fasion bearing reinsto keep a horses head up

not nice as this hurts horse iside and outside of his head and neck --

I'm still not getting you here. The only buckstop I've seen is the plain piece of string that goes under the top lip and fastens behind the ears, and then a long peice attaches to that and then to the front of the saddle. There was nothing over the nose, so no drop noseband effect. There is a picture in one of MR's books I believe. I saw this a few years ago, so don't know if there is anything else on the market now that could act differently, but obviously I would not be getting confused between gums and nose! Maybe Yann could help out here with a better description. I've not seen any of the others that maybe on the market so cannot think what you mean.

Nik-n-Kia

13th Nov 2007, 09:11 AM

That helps me a bit thanks India.

I just got the feeling that everyhting was being slammed in this thread instead of the original item.

I totally agree each to their own and what works for some may not work for all!!!

Thanks!!!!

Nikki xxxx

Yann

13th Nov 2007, 09:47 AM

There was nothing over the nose, so no drop noseband effect

Doris, your description of MR's buckstopper is correct as far as I'm aware - the other one that is being referred to is the one that was linked to in the very first post on this thread, more of a daisy rein type arrangement.

india

13th Nov 2007, 10:10 AM

However, I also found that in post number 62 of this discussion, when asked by lizzzy how you cured your bucker, you stated that you 'initially established what the probable cause was for him bucking'....

Then, when I made the point that it's not always pain which causes a horse to buck, and that that seemed to be the general assumption, you made the above quote in reply.

Did you not, by establishing the 'probable cause', make an assumption yourself; an assumption which you then based your retraining of the horse upon; an assumption which was just that, and by its nature, may not have been the real reason for the cause of your horse bucking at all!.

True, I did state to Lizzy that we first established the probable cause of Beau's problem and that's exactly what we did.....we determined through examination what the most probable (likely) cause was and based his retraining on that theory. If he hadn't shown any signs of improvement within the first few weeks, we would have assumed (accepted) the problem didn't stem from pain and then looked towards other possibilities for the cause of his bucking.

Any type of problem solving involves finding the most probable cause and working down from there until you hit the jackpot....process of elimination. I don't think it's wise for anyone to immediately assume anything especially when they're working with or around horses.

Although I can't categorically state or prove that his problem did actually stem from pain, by working on that probability in the first few weeks and noticing the improvement in his behaviour, confirmed without a doubt in our minds this was the true cause of the problem...besides the fact that 18 months later he was classed as a safe and sensible ride.

All this happened a few years back now, but he's never once reverted back into his old ways........

AengusOg

13th Nov 2007, 11:29 AM

india............Brilliant! Well done.

Sam (aka SLW)

13th Nov 2007, 12:45 PM

I just agree totally with India and itis nice to see there are other people in the world on the same wavelength and oppinion as myself.
I too am not dismissing "gadgets" completely, I just do not use them myself as I do not need to. All I was trying to get across is that people do use them as a first option as a quick fix for things when IMO they should be used as a last resort. Even then, is it absolutely necessary.
All of this is IMO, I am not trying to offend anyone before people start insulting me - MY OPPINION AND IN MY EXPERIENCE, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS :D

teabiscuit

13th Nov 2007, 04:32 PM

sometimes, hosses can buck just cos they have high spirits and they know can, and it feels good. it's not always caused by pain :confused:

JOJOBA

13th Nov 2007, 05:57 PM

sometimes, hosses can buck just cos they have high spirits and they know can, and it feels good. it's not always caused by pain

That's fair enough then, no need for anything to fix it! Unless it's causing the rider problems in which case the first point of call would surely be a look at the management of the horse? But habitual bucking isnt just high spirits, the horse is trying to tell you something.
Re; the bucking simply because they know they can and want to unseat the rider - in that case rather than using something to stop the bucking I would be asking myself why the horse didnt want to be ridden SO badly.

In the case of my horse - his bucking was out of physical issues at first so I had a lot of work and investigation done, then the remembered issues, boredom and his protesting about his management.
He was moved to a yard with different management, and much more varied work which he thrives on, and helped to overcome his remembered problems. He has bucked (small) about twice since - and this is the horse that used to have a rodeo display every session. I wont say he's cured, but he's on the right track. He has put on weight and chilled out.

I would never have used anything to stop him bucking though - his bucking is his way of telling me something is wrong - if I frighten him out of that he'll either keep it bottled up or let it out in a different way!

Surely horses which are habitual buckers that have no pain are telling us they dont want to be ridden for different reasons? They arent just bucking for the fun of it?

xxx

Yann

13th Nov 2007, 07:28 PM

Surely horses which are habitual buckers that have no pain are telling us they dont want to be ridden for different reasons? They arent just bucking for the fun of it?

My guess would be that their reaction is so ingrained because of past trauma they can't help themselves, it more or less becomes a reflex reaction to the situation. Just like a headshy horse for example, nothing is hurting but they automatically defend themselves by throwing their head up when anyone goes near their ears.

JOJOBA

13th Nov 2007, 07:32 PM

Interesting comparison yes. But would we ever treat a headshy horse the way that the buckstopper does a bucker? A good smack on the bottom to surprise them so you can get the bridle on and prove it doesnt hurt :p?

Im not sure, I'll have to mull that one over for a while.

xxx

india

14th Nov 2007, 09:04 AM

My guess would be that their reaction is so ingrained because of past trauma they can't help themselves, it more or less becomes a reflex reaction to the situation. Just like a headshy horse for example, nothing is hurting but they automatically defend themselves by throwing their head up when anyone goes near their ears.

Taking your example a step further Yann.....

The cause of the problem has been eliminated but the horse still has unpleasant memories of whatever caused him to become headshy in the first place and automatically still defends himself by throwing his head up.

Would it then be acceptable 'as a last resort' to stand him under a low overhang so that each time he throws his head up – he automatically get a painful bash on his poll? The overhang only comes into effect if the horse attempts to throw his head up, therefore he'll soon realise that keeping his head down is the better option.

What's your opinion on this example compared with the training theory behind the buckstopper and do you think this 'cure' would mask or address the problem?

:)

Yann

14th Nov 2007, 09:27 AM

Good comparison :D The situations possibly aren't exactly the same though as a) the horse throwing its head up doesn't normally endanger anyone or stop it doing a job b) there are often easy workarounds to the practical difficulties it causes c) Headshy horses usually respond well to desensitisation.

If a horse had such a deep seated problem with having its ears handled that no amount of time or patient work helped and the head throwing meant the horse was dangerous to be around you'd have to decide whether one bump on the head (assuming that persuaded the horse to think twice before head tossing again) was justified or not.

teabiscuit

14th Nov 2007, 10:49 AM

india

14th Nov 2007, 12:25 PM

If a horse had such a deep seated problem with having its ears handled that no amount of time or patient work helped and the head throwing meant the horse was dangerous to be around you'd have to decide whether one bump on the head (assuming that persuaded the horse to think twice before head tossing again) was justified or not.
But we all know that one bump on the head wouldn't 'cure' the problem...the same as one jolt in the mouth from the buckstopper doesn't 'cure' a bucker. Sure, after a few painful bangs on the poll the horse would probably stop throwing his head up, resulting in a quick fix....but at what cost to the animal in the long term?

He'd no doubt find other ways of expressing his trauma by developing other vices and behaviour problems – then what would happen? Maybe he'd have other painful gadgets used on him to 'cure' those problems 'as a last resort'....and so the vicious circle would continue.

How can any training method that relies on pain being inflicted on an already traumatised horse ever serve to convince them that humans are ok to be around.

:confused:

Yann

14th Nov 2007, 01:49 PM

But we all know that one bump on the head wouldn't 'cure' the problem...the same as one jolt in the mouth from the buckstopper doesn't 'cure' a bucker

No, but it stops the horse bucking temporarily so you have the opportunity to demonstrate to it that having a rider on board is OK and won't hurt. That's all it does. It also works, and in the instances I'm aware of there's no long term cost to the horse whatsoever, they stopped bucking and are now happy to be ridden.

As an aside are 'quick fixes' always the least desirable route in horse training?

HorseLass

14th Nov 2007, 02:31 PM

lets consider the probable life of an habitual bucker

passed from piller to post for less and less money, each new owner trying his or her own method for stopping bucks, or more likely the bucker seriously hurting the new owner and off to the sales again goes the bucker

unless it's lucky enough to land with someone who will put the time and experience in to stop it, or someone who wants a feild ornament

then landing up at the slaughter house a few months down the line

This happened to me, as some of you may know..................

I agree with Yann on many points here (just can't figure out yet how to do more than one quote :rolleyes:).

It's purely down to the type of person I am, (soft I guess :o), that stopped me from selling my mare on. I did not want either other people to get hurt (even though that consideration was not given to me), or Zara to be shot. If I get hurt, I don't work. If I don't work, I don't get paid. Yes, I sat through the first bucking fit, but I didn't/couldn't sit the second. I got hurt, but I recovered. It could have been much worse. I have a mortgage, bills, my husband and my other assorted critters to think of. I had an old gelding at the time who needed a lot of care (and medication, which equals money!:o). I had two horses, neither of which I could ride, and I couldn't afford to keep them both AND buy another!! I couldn't see a way to pay for a really good trainer, for example - given that there are few where I live, therefore would have encurred high travel expenses, etc.

I can honestly say that I have considered this kind of thing. I don't really care what anyone thinks of me for admitting that. I know (and my friends know) what kind of person I am, end of.

No, I have not used a gadget (other than changing from a 'nutcracker' snaffle bit to a myler comfort - does that count???). I decided to do everything in my power (including learning every possible cause, every possible solution from every conceivable angle, getting in help where I could, etc.). I, though have had the wherewithall, time, patience and perseverance to do that. Some people wouldn't. It caused some horrendous arguments with my (non horsey) OH - dangerous horse - sort it or sell asap, etc.

Having said all that, a year down the line and I'm riding her again. She's not tried to bounce me off again..........YET;)!!!!

What I'm trying to say is that If it came to the crunch, sorry guys, I'd use it. Looks to me like the horse wouldn't be able to give themselves a major jab in the mouth as it looks too short to allow that amount of generated downwards momentum, although I could easily be wrong.

india

14th Nov 2007, 02:56 PM

No, but it stops the horse bucking temporarily so you have the opportunity to demonstrate to it that having a rider on board is OK and won't hurt. That's all it does. It also works, and in the instances I'm aware of there's no long term cost to the horse whatsoever, they stopped bucking and are now happy to be ridden.

As an aside are 'quick fixes' always the least desirable route in horse training?

It would still take more than just one jab in the mouth to stop the horse bucking temporarily and even then it's only a case of the horse accepting that having a rider on is the lesser of two evils.

Maybe the two horses you've refered to in the past where an exception, but I'm pleased it worked out well for both of them.:) I just wonder how many horses that have had pain inducing gadgets used on them actually overcame the behaviour problem without any secondary vices developing – it would be interesting to find out the rough percentage of MR's buckstopper success rate...do Recommended Associates keep any records?

In my opinion, painless quick fixes have their place in horse training as a means to enable the trainer to address the problem on a longer term basis – these type of quick fixes can be of benefit to the horse and trainer. It's the 'quick fixes' that are produced by pain inflicted methods that mask the problem rather than address it that I consider to be the least desirable route to take.

teabiscuit

14th Nov 2007, 03:01 PM

I just wonder how many horses that have had pain inducing gadgets used on them actually overcame the behaviour problem without any secondary vices developing – .

secondary vices may not be as bad as the origanal "sin" :)

when i used a little prod with my finger to my foals tummy as he reared (i'm sure no one could say i inflicted pain) he disliked it enough to stop him rearing in hand

his secondary vice is pawing the ground

if he has to do something to express his impatience, pawing the ground is preferable to rearing

eta horselass i didn't know you'd had and overcome such problems. :) good work :)

india

14th Nov 2007, 03:22 PM

secondary vices may not be as bad as the origanal "sin" :)
Maybe not, but it's probably the only way an already traumatised horses is able to express himself.

Wouldn't it be preferable to spend as much time as it takes on the initail problem to begin with, than having to spend extra amounts of time 'curing' the secondary vice?

:confused:

teabiscuit

14th Nov 2007, 03:27 PM

india

14th Nov 2007, 05:41 PM

depends on the horse, once a horse has a trigger reaction of bucking to a certain stimulus, you need some way of breaking the cycle, then you can get the horse to realise "well maybe it isn't so bad" instead of "buck, buck like hell"

breaking the cycle is the hard part

and i don;t mind my foal pawing, if he needs an outlet, then he can keep that vice for now

you dont; have to solve all problems at once

start with the most dangerous

you know what you're doing, though, not trying to teach you to suck eggs.

I agree, you do need to break the cycle - but there's many other ways of doing it than inflicting pain to get a result.

The thing is, there's a big difference between the discomfort felt by a little prod to the tummy and the pain inflicted by the buckstopper, your foal needed to realise that rearing was unacceptable and this was a very good way to remind him.

A true habitual bucker (or any other horse with a serious behaviour issue) is quite a different story though, they already have major trauma issues embedded in their brains usually stemming from memory of fear/pain, and as mentioned in a previous post.....the last thing these type of horses need is a training gadget that intentionally inflicts more pain on them to a get a result.

My view is that if the behaviour problem is addressed correctly and without causing fear, pain or distress, it's highly unlikely that any horse would develop secondary vices anyway.

:)

Yann

14th Nov 2007, 08:22 PM

it would be interesting to find out the rough percentage of MR's buckstopper success rate...do Recommended Associates keep any records?

According to Monty R in his book From My Hands To Yours ''I have acheived success with these techniques in an extremely high percentage of cases". He is also adamant that even the most persistent buckers suffered no lasting harm from using the device. I'm sure RA's do keep records and I would be surprised if any of them that did actually use it would continue to do so if it didn't work or injured the horses they worked with. The ones I've met take the ethics of their work very seriously.

This thread seems to be getting a bit circular - nobody is disagreeing that time and patience are the best way to deal with a problem, or that a buckstop is anything but a tool of last resort. Whether to use it or not will be the choice of a person in a very difficult situation with their horse, and that decision is theirs alone.

india

14th Nov 2007, 09:49 PM

According to Monty R in his book From My Hands To Yours ''I have acheived success with these techniques in an extremely high percentage of cases". He is also adamant that even the most persistent buckers suffered no lasting harm from using the device.
That's a statement MR's bound to make about his own branded product....who can blame him, he's hardly likely to criticise his own training methods. On hindsight though, I guess in reality, there's no way of ever finding out the true success/failure percentage rate, so I think it best if we leave it at that. :)

This thread seems to be getting a bit circular - nobody is disagreeing that time and patience are the best way to deal with a problem, or that a buckstop is anything but a tool of last resort. Whether to use it or not will be the choice of a person in a very difficult situation with their horse, and that decision is theirs alone.
I totally agree Yann, this thread seems to be going round in circles, the only thing I disagree with here is the buckstopper needn't be 'a last resort'...there's many other trainers out there who can help the most traumatised horse overcome their problems without the need of these type of gadgets......but as you say - it's the individuals choice at the end of the day.;)

MelanieD

15th Nov 2007, 12:04 AM

india

15th Nov 2007, 10:23 AM

Pretty common bit of advice given about riding buckers it so 'keep the head up', generally meant hands high and use the bit to keep the head up. Do those of you that think the buckstopper is evil think that keeping hands up to try to stop 'head down and bronc' is nasty as well? That uses a metal bit to put pressure on the sensitive mouth.. almost nastier than a bit of soft rope. And a buckstop doesn't depend on the rider's timing and balance as a bit does..

Your right, in general people are taught to ride through a buck in this way - but that's all it does, it helps keep the rider in the saddle so they can push the horse forward....... it doesn't actually address the problem of why the horse is bucking in the first place. I agree, in that situation, the bit would put pressure on the horses mouth – but if the arms where braced but relaxed while keeping contact with the horse, that's all it should produce...pressure, not pain.

In contrast, the buckstopper, which is made of quite narrow rope is placed between the top lip and gumline, this only comes into effect when the horse tries to buck. Now this may sound kinder on the horse than keeping contact with the mouth, but when you consider the weight behind a buck and that weight jolting against the piece of rope that's between the horses top lip and gumline......I hardly think there's any comparison.

The buckstopper is a severe gadget and for that reason why MR probably states it should only be used as a last resort and why they're not readily available for sale.

:)

teabiscuit

15th Nov 2007, 10:26 AM

and what about the buck stop in the OP's first post?

india

15th Nov 2007, 10:42 AM

and what about the buck stop in the OP's first post?

I personally don't think it's anywhere near as severe as MR's buckstopper.

:)

teabiscuit

15th Nov 2007, 10:47 AM

would you be prepared to use that one?(in the appropraite circumstances, not suggesting it's appropriate in any but the most difficult case where pain etc has been ruled out)
i'm sorry , i thought this post was about that not the MR one :o

MelanieD

15th Nov 2007, 10:54 AM

Your right, in general people are taught to ride through a buck in this way - but that's all it does, it helps keep the rider in the saddle so they can push the horse forward....... it doesn't actually address the problem of why the horse is bucking in the first place. I agree, in that situation, the bit would put pressure on the horses mouth – but if the arms where braced but relaxed while keeping contact with the horse, that's all it should produce...pressure, not pain.

Assuming the horse isn't bucking because of current pain where the advice should be 'get off and sort it out'.

Ok, what if you hold your hands up and horse still tries to throw head down and gets a sock in the mouth with the bit? I've never met a rider yet that can keep a perfect soft contact while ponio is trying to bronc them off..

I've seen a bucking horse with the rider's hands held high to keep head up look a h*ll of a lot more bothered by it than the horse I've seen in a MR buckstop...

I do think the buckstop should only be used in circumstances where the more normal methods have failed but it has its place and don't think its quite as much of a big evil as some are making out.

india

15th Nov 2007, 12:23 PM

Assuming the horse isn't bucking because of current pain where the advice should be 'get off and sort it out'.

Ok, what if you hold your hands up and horse still tries to throw head down and gets a sock in the mouth with the bit? I've never met a rider yet that can keep a perfect soft contact while ponio is trying to bronc them off..

I've seen a bucking horse with the rider's hands held high to keep head up look a h*ll of a lot more bothered by it than the horse I've seen in a MR buckstop...

I do think the buckstop should only be used in circumstances where the more normal methods have failed but it has its place and don't think its quite as much of a big evil as some are making out.

The horse would only get a sock in the mouth if the rider lost contact – if this happened (for whatever reason) it would result in him getting a painful jolt against the bit each time he threw his head down. However, if contact was maintained (I don't think anyone would expect a perfectly soft contact in this situation);) all that should result is an increase in pressure... under normal circumstances, this should be enough to give the rider time to push the horse forward through the buck.

I've already expressed my views on MR's buckstopper quite clearly and also my thoughts on the 'last resort' reason for using one....so I'll not go over them again. The only reason I replied to your previous post was to give my views on the comparisons you made between a bit and the MR buckstopper.

Personally, I think everything else has been covered in great detail from both sides now.

:)

Pink's lady

15th Nov 2007, 12:31 PM

The horse would only get a sock in the mouth if the rider lost contact – if this happened (for whatever reason) it would result in him getting a painful jolt against the bit each time he threw his head down. However, if contact was maintained (I don't think anyone would expect a perfectly soft contact in this situation) all that should result is an increase in pressure... under normal circumstances, this should be enough to give the rider time to push the horse forward through the buck

Really!? I used to ride a bucker. He used to buck when he was told do something he didn't like, like walking away from his friends. Sometimes he would be fine, others he would have a stroppy bugger moment and have a right old paddy. Horses are capable of just being stupid sods;). Some horses nap or head shake - he bucked. WE as humans think of bucking as a major expression of stress - -most horses don't unless they've been taught it's very wrong.

And he certainly would not just get a 'steady increase in pressure' - he got him head yanked back up as hard as I could!! - if i didn't he would have me off. If you've ever ridden a proper, experienced bucker you'll know 'pushing them through it' isn't a gentle process:eek: They get their mouths yanked pretty damn hard, not to mention being booted in the ribs and probably getting thier bum smacked too. I think I'd prefer the MR buck stop to that!

india

15th Nov 2007, 01:17 PM

.And he certainly would not just get a 'steady increase in pressure' - he got him head yanked back up as hard as I could!! - if i didn't he would have me off. If you've ever ridden a proper, experienced bucker you'll know 'pushing them through it' isn't a gentle process:eek: They get their mouths yanked pretty damn hard, not to mention being booted in the ribs and probably getting thier bum smacked too. I think I'd prefer the MR buck stop to that!
If you read my post, I did state under NORMAL circumstances....a normal buck, I wasn't refering to seasoned buckers....these should be dealt with from the ground...not by constantly being yanked in their mouths and having their heads yanked back...this is no doubt the reason why some horses become habitual buckers in the first place and end up as a 'last resort' horses.!!!!

Just for the record...I have ridden (and owned) an habitual bucker, read through the posts on this thread!!

AengusOg

15th Nov 2007, 02:02 PM

So india ...................why don't you tell us how mr parelli deals with habitual buckers..............that may take us in another direction.

india

15th Nov 2007, 03:15 PM

So india ...................why don't you tell us how mr parelli deals with habitual buckers..............that may take us in another direction.

I wondered how long it would be before someone made a remark like this. :rolleyes:

Let's not turn this into a them against us thread, there's enough of them around as it is. ;)

teabiscuit

15th Nov 2007, 03:22 PM

that's a shame india, was genuinely looking forward to further discussion

i don't know how PP would deal with a bucker

pretty please carry on :)

MelanieD

15th Nov 2007, 03:31 PM

If you read my post, I did state under NORMAL circumstances....a normal buck, I wasn't refering to seasoned buckers....these should be dealt with from the ground...not by constantly being yanked in their mouths and having their heads yanked back...this is no doubt the reason why some horses become habitual buckers in the first place and end up as a 'last resort' horses.!!!!

I don't think anyone would suggest using a MR buckstopper on a normal bucker that just has the occasional 'wheee!' buck or opinionated buck.

'Seasoned' buckers can't always be dealt with from the ground. At some point you have to get on the horse and deal with it.

The last one I dealt with was perfect on the ground, lunged well, long reined, wore a saddle no problem but would freak and bronc until you were off. Original cause was a badly fitting saddle but it took a lot of work after that was sorted to get her past bucking and keeping a soft contact was not top of the list when she started bucking! I didn't use any gadget because she didn't immediately go off bucking so there was opportunity to get on and persuade her p