Flat footed.... Wally?

[virtuallyhorses]

Had a discussion on hoof strengths, merits etc previously and I asked about 'flat footedness'. I wasn't sure what the term really referred to and Wally gave me the excellent analogy of 'vaulted ceilings' providing strength, as does a nice concave sole.

Wally, you there? I've realised that most (all I think) of the people I've met who have professed their expertise on hooves\horses and given me their opinion on this or that 'flat footed' horse have never picked the foot up - they seem to make this judgement based on looking at the animals hoof while the horse is standing on it...?

How is it so? Is there something about the shape of a horse's hoof that lets you see that they are flat-footed - or are these people kidding themselves that they know what they're talking about ? ;)

I've noticed that my boys feet appear to be 'improving' (well, changing) now that he has been barefoot for a few months, and when I look at his foot, his frog seems larger and his sole more concave (although the hoof wall isn't particularly long).

Not having much experience in this area, I've been tempted to go around randomly picking up strange horse's feet to see what they look like and get a more objective opinion. This probably isn't terribly polite (so I'll do it with permission, or on the sly in the paddock).

So I'm wondering if there is some external feature that experienced horse people look for to determine the overall strength\structure of the horse's hoof ? Does a nice heel for instance say anything about the inner structure of the hoof - flat footedness?

[Wally]

Sorry missed this thread, only just found it.

Oh heck where to start.

To me a flat footed horse is one whose sole has collapsed for whatever reason, usually laminitis.

A saucer shaped foot is quite a different thing, some horses just have big feet. However you can influence the outside shape of the foot with shoeing. The inner sole is not so easily rectified, if the inner structures of the foot no longer have the adheision to support the sole you canot make it vault shaped again. Some kinds of British draught horse tend to saucer feet, but still have good sole structure, continental draughts tend to boxyer upright feet, an upright foot is stronger but concentrates more weight over a smaller area so they tend to sink in more!

A laminitic horse, who has his shoes removed, (one with dropped soles) will benefit from having his shoes off over the winter and allowed to walk about in a soft field. Soft ground will push up into the sole supporting it and in some cases restoring the structure a bit.

One cannot really decide upon a perfect foot becasue what will suit one horse on the end of his leg won't suit another due to leg conformation, gait and job he does.

One thing which may make a footlook flat is the pastern foot axis. A sloping foot may make the foot look longer and flatter. An upright pastern may make the foot look boxy, it may not be the hoof, it may be the leg conformation.

A "normal" hoof should have a toe angle of 50-55 degrees, but if this does not complement his confomation you will make him lame.

Things to avoid with feet? short heels ie the horse has no real measurable heel and is walking on the bulbs of his heels. This can be fixed but takes ages.

Long toes are not such a problem, they can be rectified in a relatively short space of time, so long as the heels have not worn down as a consequence of long toes. Short heels cause tendon problems, as do long toes but one is easier fixed than the other.

Cracks and uneven horn.....difficult, some uneven horn is diet related and will grow out without problems, some is desease relates and may re-occur.

I am still a raw apprentice and learning all the time, Farriers spend 5 years learning their trade, I didn't know so many factors affected feet, legs, even back and necks until I started looking at feet and shoes.

Sadly now, I do go around looking at horse's feet, catologues, shows, you name it I look at feet and shoes and the way the horse moves and look and learn all the time. It opens a huge world to you....fascinating too. Sorry this is so long and rambling.

When it all boils down to it you cannot form any opinion at all about a horse's foot without an upper, lower and in motion view. Look at the legs attached to the feet up as far as the bum and shoulder. Then you can say whether his feet are good or bad or just ugly.

[virtuallyhorses]

cheers Wally, there are so many fascinating things about horses it surprises me that some humans who have owned\competed horses for long periods of time seem so 'disinterested' or blase.

I think here that for a lot of people talking about 'flat footed thoroughbreds' is one of those code phrases, that people use to let others know that they're in the 'horsie set', a lot of them seem to mean that the horse has tender soles, others mean that its has 'bad feet or poor horn' or even trips up a lot...;) and you're right there's probably a lot of people who look at the long toe\little or no heel profile fairly typical of many TB's and say 'sagely' ahhhh flat flooted ;)

I've seen an odd looking device that sort of looks like a sextant for horses - is this how the angle of the hoof is measured?

I've considered taking a photo catalogue of my horse's feet, since I'm sure my eye\brain are deceiving me many times with regard to changes.

I've pretty much left my horse's feet alone since his shoes were removed, but I have done a little filing to keep the nail holes from causing cracks and chips (they're grown out and gone now) and I did bring back his toes a little (squared off the point of breakover). He's never had laminitis and not been lame, and his heels have definitely improved as I've left them well alone (he was long toed\no heels). I'm calling the farrier out again shortly to get his opinion on whether I've let this go a little upright - my eye is unsure about whether the pastern axis is broken or not so at worst it will be a very minor transgression, but I would like to get his advice on barefoot care and trimming and whether he agrees with the notiion of the bevelled toe to produce a shorter breakover.

Anyway, now I'm babbling :) but thanks for your input Wally, if you ever want to talk feet, trimming or swap hoof links etc just let me know. I can't claim much knowledge or experience but I do find it fascinating and love to research.

[Wally]

Oh heck, I'm not sure you can go too short...if you get my drift at this wide sweeping statement. Most times you see far too long ...far, far too long. Facillitation breakover and influencing the flight of the foot through the air is the main worry. That and not causing stress in the upper leg joints through over zealous hoof changes.
I have been taught that the bones fuse from the ground up. That's why foals have such long legs, a good indication to their adult size. If you do not get in there and solve hoof problems in the forst 12 months of life, the growth plates fuse and then you are stuck with them.

The hoof guage is the odd bit of plant you mention to measure hoof angle at the toe. But the angle at the toe needs to be taken into consideration with a lot of other angles and conformation and gait irregularities! Just because you have the toe right doesn't mean the horse will be shod to his advantage. Getting your eye in is the only way. Walk and trot the horse up. Look at the wear on the last set of shoes, hoof and road side. The hoof will wear great big lumps out of the inner bearing surface of the shoe. Almost as much as the road surface in some horses.

Once you have dressed and balanced the underside of the hoof, you will see the white zone and the sole and the hoof wall. You can then "bevel" an equi-distant perimiter round the hoof from the underside. Then you can rasp back to this level from the hoof wall side. making sure you don't dump the toe. Looking back under the hoof you should have an equal and uniform hoof, with equal wall thickness and a good outer structure. If not you need to carefully consider all sorts of factors. The frog should be wide and fleshy. The sole slightly concave. I like to see bars defined, they add strength to the hoof. Some folk advocate removing the bars and letting the sole drop. If nature gave the horse bars, then they are there for a reason. Just me!

But if you mean thin soles say so. If you mean poor horn quality say so. If the horse trips there has to be a good reason. Schooling may be the problem, not feet at all. Or even leg conformation much higher up.

I too am on the research and learning curve.

[Cochise]

This has been interesting to me because I was put down in the show ring on my old pony Sabre several times dues to him having "flat feet". He was unshod and never has been as far as I know. I rode him for 3 years and nothing seemed to change. I knew very little about his past, only that he was very neglected and scared of people. He is a fantastic pony to work with though, very rewarding....anyway as I said it has been interesting......
Sabes is now in a riding school and cruising through life still bare foot. I will scan some pics of him soon

[virtuallyhorses]

:D yes, it happenned again to me in the weekend, someone came to comment on what nice feet - which I've now learned to interpret as 'small and pretty' - my horse had and ask how I took care of them (being barefoot) as he rarely has any chips, cracks or flakes.

They then commented on several other TB's 'flat feet' - meaning BIG FEET in this case ....I now simply smile and nod, since all of these horses have perfectly functional feet and legs so surely the size of them is 'just right' for each individual horse - but we humans seem to make judgements based on rather strange things like our ideas on 'looks' even when it makes no sense ;)

BTW - anyone else - I headed this up to 'Wally' since I knew he was 'into hooves' but everyone else is welcome to join in if you wish :)

[tasha]

The term 'flat foot' round here seems to mean that the hoof is growing at an angle of less than 45* with the ground. Is this correct, and as Kally's hooves seem to be growing that way, should I worry/get something done about it?

[virtuallyhorses]

Hi Tasha - take a look under the hoof - flat footed refers to the shape of the sole (reflecting the internal structure of the hoof) rather than the hoof wall shape as seen from the outside. - refer Wally's post's for excellent descriptions.

Can you post a photo - as a shallow angle may be caused by the heel\toe trim or by flaring of the hoof wall (which in turn causes stretching of the white line).

Here's a link that has lots of photos and diagrams to look at

Barefoot trim (http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Strategy.html)

[rusk]

My horse had huge feet when I bought him and long toes. The hoof quality was poor and he had lots of cracks. The farrier cut them right back ( he admits now that he may have been a bit hasty) resulting in the horse going lame for quite a while. I worked on improving the hoof itself and now after two years there are no cracks and the hoof is strong. I keep his feet relatively short and don't let the toes grow long. However, he has very flat soles and stumbles on stony ground. I really wish there was some magic potion I could give him to stop this. I permanently use Keratex and Hoof Rite, is there something else I could do?
The farrier doesn't believe in pads or wide shoes, as I think I mentioned in a previous post. HELP!!.

[tasha]

Virtuallyhorses-I dont have a photo so was going to wait until after she was shod a few days ago to take one. However after the shoeing it doesn't look like it is growing like that any more. Her feet aren't flaring (had a look at your link!!;) ) but I'm not sure about the heel/toe trim bit...what do you mean?

Thanks!

[virtuallyhorses]

By the heel\toe trim I mean the amount of trimming\rasping done in either area. So if you have a very shallow angle at the toe this could be that the heels are very low and the toe is allowed to be very long (to touch the ground because of the low heels). The angle could then be 'corrected' by not trimming the heels at all next time and trimming the toe to 'bring it back' - this makes the foot more upright.

*warning* However - these angles always need to be adjusted in reference to the pastern angle, so some horses because of their conformation may actually need a shallow hoof angle. I'll see if I can take some photos of my horse's feet and mark them up to let you see what I mean (I'm a visual person myself - its much easier to show on a photo :) )

[Wally]

Okay, try this:-

Imagine your horse's foot is made of paper drinking straws! All lined up side by side top to bottom the strongest way a drinking straw could take weight. Now if these straws are all stuck together lengthways they will make a strong wall only if the weight and concussion goes from top to bottom in a strong column. If you add stress too far back the wall will bend and splits will result in the wall. This is exactly what hoof tubules do if the toe is too long and the weight distribution is wrong.

[tasha]

That's a great explanantion Wally..I understand now. Thanks!