Tennessee Walking Horses!

[TheWorldOver!]

Oh my god! I just watched for the first time a Tennessee Walking Horse show on YouTube and it was painful to watch. I am sure many who read this will disagree but the way the horses walk - even if they are bread and trained to do it from a very young age - just isn't natural to me. Especially looking at the hind legs, they practically have to drag and stay very close to the ground to do the "walking effect". This is one of the clips. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcTaEDGqQr8

Like I said, some people will disagree with me and find this gait normal, but to me, any forced gait is just that: forced. Jumping over fences might not be a very first choice either for some horses either, but my gut feeling says that if they were to choose between jumping and walking a certain way we tell them to, they would probably choose to jump. All that is my humble opinion of course.

Ok, I am open to be blasted away :rolleyes:

[Yann]

Those horses do gait naturally, but what you see in those videos is a perversion of it, gross and exagerrated. Most the methods used to try and make it more extravagant are barbaric. I can't imagine anyone will defend it here in a million years.

[Tootsie4U]

The place I keep my horses breed Walkers and they look nothing like that. What you see is a product of mechanical manipulation (speculating, but I'd be willing to bet on it). The ones I see everyday at my farm gait naturally and its actually beautiful in its own way. And very smooth to ride.

[Denbenj]

oh that was quite painful to watch....

There are alot of issues surrounding the breed in the showing, Like others have said that extent is artifically encouraged by various ways..

http://www.thestallionplace.com/breed_info/tennessee_walkers.htm

[IrisSilverMoon]

I've ridden a tennessee walking horse, that walkwas totally natural (and as others have said is natural to the breed).

its really smooth pace and very fast. The owners took (this was awhile ago) good care of him and did not do any goofy shoing or training to enhance the walk in any way. He was just a trail horse purchased because of the smooth walk. the only training request i got was that i not let him pace, which is fine.

[star*]

I don't like it, the rider sits way behind the normal saddle postition which is the weakest part of the horses back, the show horse like the one in that video is exagerated produced by extra long forefeet

Also don't like what they used to do to them as I'm guessing some people still do it

Soring
Soring is an abusive practice that is associated in part with the production of a "big lick" Walker. It involves using chemical agents such as mustard oil, diesel fuel, kerosene, salicylic acid, and others, on the pasterns, bulbs of heel, or coronary band of the horses, burning or blistering the horse's legs so that it will accentuate its gait. These chemicals are harmful, usually quite toxic and sometimes carcinogenic, and trainers must use a brush and wear gloves when applying them. The area may then be wrapped in plastic while the chemicals are absorbed. The chemical agents cause extreme pain, and usually lead to scarring. A distinctive scarring pattern is a tell-tale signs of soring, and therefore may be covered up by a dye, or the horse's legs may be treated with salicylic acid before the animal is stalled (as many can not stand up after the treatment) while the skin of the scars slough off. Other signs that a horse has been sored include:

The horse stands with its feet close together, shifting his weight to his hind legs
Granulation or scars on the pasterns or coronet
Wavy hair growth or hair loss in the pastern area
Pastern has darker hairs than the rest of the horse's coat
Hocks are carried low and may twist outward when moving
Horse lies down for extended periods of time, and is resistant to standing up
Horse resists handling of feet
Horse has difficulty walking, and may fall
Other methods of soring include pressure shoes, where the hoof is trimmed to the quick so that the sole is in direct contact with the pad or shoe. The horse may then be "road foundered," ridden up and down hard surfaces on the over-trimmed hooves, until they are very sore. Trainers sometimes place objects, such as metal beads, nails, or screws, under the pad causing intense pressure, although this practice has begun to decrease with the advent of fluoroscope to detect such methods. Abusive use of chains (such as using them with chemical soring agents) is also a common practices by sorers.

Measures have been taken to stop the practice, and many supporters of the Tennessee Walking Horse have banded together for years to oppose cruelty. The 1970 Horse Protection Act [2], created specifically to stop such practices and to monitor the TWH in particular, prohibits the use of soring agents. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) is working with the industry to enforce the law; Walking Horse organizations send DQP's (Designated Qualified Persons) to shows to inspect the horses alongside the federal Veterinary Medical Officers. According to the APHIS, less than 1% of horses inspected were cited for any violation, including technical violations such as use of hair dyes and shoeing measurements.

Soring is now prohibited at sales and shows, and is detected by observing the horse for lameness and assessing his stance and palpating the lower legs. Some trainers can bypass inspectors training horses not to react to the pain that palpation may cause, often by severely punishing the horse for flinching after the sored area is palpated. The practice is sometimes called "Stewarding," in reference to the horse show steward who often is the first line of rule enforcement at any horse show. Trainers may also time the use of the agents so that chemicals will not be detected when the horse is examined, but will be in effect when the rider goes into the ring. Others use topical anesthetics, which are timed to wear off before the horse goes into the show ring. Pressure shoeing is also used, eliminating use of chemicals altogether. Many trainers who sore will also leave the show grounds when they find that Federal DQPs are present.

In 2006, however, due to new techniques in both soring and detection, the USDA has begun a larger crackdown on soring within the TWH industry. A new device known as a sniffer (also used to detect the chemical presence of bombs in airport security) is now being employed where swabbed samples are taken from the horse and then "sniffed." At the 2006 Tennessee Walking Horse Celebration [3], the longstanding dispute between trainers and USDA inspectors came to a head. The inspectors disqualified 6 of 10 horses from showing on the night of Friday, August 25, 2006. The trainers denied soring and challenged the monitoring methods. The result was that a number of celebration championship classes were canceled, and there is still considerable controversy over the situation.

Trainers who oppose soring have formed and joined alternative breed organizations, including the National Walking Horse Association (NWHA) and Friends of Sound Horses (FOSH). All of these organizations promote the sound Tennessee Walking Horse. In addiition, in 2005, the national directors of the Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders' and Exhibitors' Association (TWHBEA) voted to remove themselves from the National Horse Show Commission (NHSC) the sanctioning body closest to the soring issues. The TWHBEA formed its own sanctioning body, developed a new rule book and strict guidlines for affiliated horse shows and Horse Industry Organizations [HIO] that applied and were examined by the APHIS. The issue remains very controversial, particularly in the states of Kentucky and Tennessee.


Pads

Pads are also controversial. Some are also critical of the band that holds the pad on, which they believe cuts into the hoof and may wear a slot into it. However, it is a common practice for a trainer to loosen the band when the horse is not being exercised, which may minimize the problem. Under normal conditions, if a pad is lost, it usually only affects the pad itself and not the base shoe which remains intact. Injuries are usually very limited from "throwing" a set of pads. It is dangerous if a horse wearing pads pulls off a shoe, as not only will the pad will come off, but the band may tear off part of the hoof wall. Therefore, horses wearing pads should not be turned out.

[Sam (aka SLW)]

I am sorry and this is my oppinion but how can that be natural?? I just can't see it. There is no way I can picture a horse in the wild, wlking across the open lands like that!! I cannot understand how that is anything but artificial - again, my oppinion.

[Sam (aka SLW)]

Just read stars post - that is disgusting. I hope for the sake of the horse that those methods were outlawed a long time ago and pray no one still uses those methods.

[pineapple]

they use horrible methods such as really heavy shoes, abnormal trimming and chemicals that damage the horses legs and hooves to get them to move in such an extreme way but they do move abit like that naurally not as exagerated though.

[star*]

I am sorry and this is my oppinion but how can that be natural?? I just can't see it. There is no way I can picture a horse in the wild, wlking across the open lands like that!! I cannot understand how that is anything but artificial - again, my oppinion.

It's distinctive gaits - the flat-foot walk, the running walk and the canter are inherited, as small foals can be seen preforming the running walk beside their dams. Both walk are a lose four beat gait, with a high action in front. As the horse moves, the horse nods its head in rythm with the rise and fall of teh hoofs, and the hind feet overstride the tracks left by the front feet. The flat-foot walk should be loose, bold and square with plenty of shoulder motion. There should be a noticable differnce in the tempo between the two walks. The canter has a rocking chair motion. But like I said in a previos post the show horses actions are exaterated and they were special boots on their hooves to exagerate it more which I don't agree with.

[Yann]

The pads / blocks used to extend the front hooves are certainly still in use:(

The saddest thing of all is that this breed is apparently well known for its kind and docile temperament, and we do this to it.

[Sam (aka SLW)]

Sorry but I still don't see how it can be natural in the first place. Has anyone got or can put a link on here with a foal showing this movement loose alongside the dam, then I may believe it. Even if this is the case, that vid of the show was awful to watch, really put a lump in my throat.

[Bling]

They sure did look weird. I've seen several Walkers and part-Walkers, and they could naturally walk really fast and smooth. They had phenomenally kind dispositions (I guess they're bred that way---what kind of horse could put up with that training?) and as far as jumping, every one was FANTASTIC, even without any training. I think the abuses are dying out. (Hope so!) The crowd was noisy but small.

[IrisSilverMoon]

Sorry but I still don't see how it can be natural in the first place. Has anyone got or can put a link on here with a foal showing this movement loose alongside the dam, then I may believe it. Even if this is the case, that vid of the show was awful to watch, really put a lump in my throat.


well considering you can't just teach any breed the running walk it is natural, if it werent you could get the same action from any horse. You can breed in all sorts of things into an animal. You might not see it as much with horses as you do with other animals like dogs (where its easy to see a lot of breed distinction, but its still there.

I suppose its not "natural" in the sense that we did breed the gait in there. But its something they are born able to do. Basically you find a horse with a unique gait, and you breed it in hopes of getting another horse with the unique gait. Once you do you start inbreeding or line breeding to make it more likely to isolate the horses with that gait and be able to continue breeding them (this is how any horse breed is made, though they have selected for other traits, otherwise all horses would look the same).

this being said the extra stuff they do to the horse to enhance the action is just rediculous, you don't see that kind of movement on a horse without all the gadgets and extra work to get that gait looking like that.

these links aren't bad, though its harder to tell with a foal i think...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QKBedEN0luo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEZwV4m92s

the videos are easy enough to find on youtube. I think that second foal is the best one for an example. You will also notice they all pace! no trotting.

[TheWorldOver!]

Now I understand. Those YouTube clips you attached IrisSilverMoon are so much better than what I saw earlier today. Now I understand when it is said that the TWH's are naturally gaited that way. :)

[IrisSilverMoon]

yeah, that's definately closer to the amount of movement you would see of a horse that hasn't had all the work done to create that goofy distorted gait.

I wonder why people have to train that way, it doesn't seem fair. The person who doesn't want to do all that stuff will loose every time and probably just can't compete in those classes.

I will also say that one of the best canters i've ever sat was on that TWH, he collected right up and was really bouncy, exactly like sitting on a rocking horse, and it felt so controlled.

[Lindsey_S]

TWH's have been bred to produce that natural gait, called the running walk. The first video clips posted on this thread are of 'big lick' horses. These have been artifically manufactured to look that way. I in no way support it. BUT There is the flat shod type, which move naturally, without the knee and hock exaggerations.

[Sasca]

Just another point about the show horses that have all the procedures done to them. One of the other techniques they use to "enhance" the image is to tie the tail vertical from a young age. The tails are tied to a roller and left over night till eventually they sit in the vertical position. Must be very painful to start with.

Nice horses in themselves. but i thinks its sad to have foot long shanks of a bit in and a fat guy sitting on their kidneys!!! Poor things. I prefere the natural gait and have nothing against it at all. The showing should be abbolished.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/Sasca06/forum%20pictures/TheSkyWatch.jpg

[star*]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/Sasca06/forum%20pictures/TheSkyWatch.jpg
Champion:eek: it looks horendus like cruelty!

[kerenza]

I hate the way the guys sit on them too - it looks horrible:rolleyes: Really rigid with hunched shoulders - terrible posture!

[star*]

I hate the way the guys sit on them too

I agree but what bothers me even more is where they sit!!!!

[Denbenj]

Champion:eek: it looks horendus like cruelty!

ohhh that pictures awful..

Heres a lovely one i found on you tube.. Looks quite ' natural' to me what a stunning horse!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSY-y1EKnSA

ETA.. didnt realise it was 2!!

Now look at this the poor things are 2 yearolds... Some of these links have really opened my eyes! Shocking stuff
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

[TheWorldOver!]

Yup, that pic was just as awful as the YouTube video on my original post. And has anyone noticed that aside from the rider sitting way back, they also look weird too, in a sense that their heads are leaned forward, their facial expressions are spooky. Overall, the whole show gaint and concept is just weird and should be abolished. :mad:

At instances like this one, I often think what the horse would do for us.

[star*]

ohhh that pictures awful..

Heres a lovely one i found on you tube.. Looks quite ' natural' to me what a stunning horse!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSY-y1EKnSA

ETA.. didnt realise it was 2!!

Now look at this the poor things are 2 yearolds... Some of these links have really opened my eyes! Shocking stuff
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

First vid looks natural as they aren't wearing those horrendus things on their feet to make them longer and the rider is sitting in the normal place. 2ns vid shouldn't be allowed to do that!

[Denbenj]

Yes I love that first one.. I think they should send it me as a secret santa :D

[Siogfinsceal]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y[/url]
oh god the first horse - it looks like the man is riding a giraffe!!:eek: the horses hind legs and so hunched

[KateWooten]

Well, now let's not just pick on the poor old walking horse ! just for fun, have a google on Saddlebreds and National Show Horses too ...

That tailset - it's not just held fixed there as a youngster, it's also broken and then set, to achieve that kink.

You might want to have a think about gingering also, particularly with respect to the Saddlebred.

Most of the soring techniques are of course outlawed. You'all want to come over and I'll show you L's barn ? L got banned a few years ago for soring, so all their horses carried right on being shown under his son's name. Now L's served his time, which is handy cos the son is starting his ban. Let's go to L's barn and breathe in deep that lovely smell. So, the regulations work then, huh !

L is our local farrier, by the way. Ask me again why I went barefoot.

None of this stuff is way back in the dark ages. It's right here. Often you'll go to a big lick show and all the classes are half-empty or cancelled ! What's with that ? The inspectors are here. Boo Hiss. The big guys all turned right around and went home without so much as unloading a horse.

I don't think I could name a single other breed whose national championship got cancelled, when on inspection, more than half of the qualifiers were barred the day of the finals.

Some of the training techniques are not outlawed. It is perfectly fine to put 6 inch pads on a big-lick walker. And chains around the ankle. 'Oh, but they're only lttle chains'. 6 inch pads - that's 6 inches at the back. Leave the toe long, and now have the front of the pad down to only an inch or so. Now tell me about the effect of that pad on the horse's knee.

Ugh. But round here it's as normal as ****-fighting, and 24-hr live bear baiting on TV.

ETA ... '****'- fighting .. hmmm ... I mean "male chicken-fighting" !!!

[Denbenj]

crikey.. thats quite amazing about the classes cancelled as inspectors are there!:eek:

[Sam (aka SLW)]

This is my oppinion before any one looses their handbag;

I think this is absolute absue and looks disgusting. I actually shed a tear when watching the youtube clip of the 2year olds. I don't think anything positive can be said about this type of showing, it should be totally banned. I have a very low opinion of anyone who is a fan of this :mad:

[CER1389]

Firstly I would like to say I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. I know a lot of the gadgets thye use to exaggerate this walk, its awful.

With reference to where thye sit: I know a lot of them are too far back, however as long as the correct ones don't go past the last rib it's fine. It's similar to where the icelandic riders sit so that they don't interrupt the front shoulder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPSml3HWlqc
(video is to show icelandic riders position.)

[TheWorldOver!]

OMG CER1389, the riders on the clip look so funny! What's missing is some Benny Hill Show background music just as you watch the clip with them racing :D:D

[IrisSilverMoon]

some of those poor two year olds in that video look like they are having problems balancing with the big shoes on! i see them stumble a little with their back feet.

anyone know what the remifications of attaching those rediculous shoes to the hooves are? (aside from looking stupid that is)

i got a close up because i was interested in seeing what it looked like...

http://www.nashvilleistalking.com/archives/sorehorsehoof.jpg

the pads and chains.

[IrisSilverMoon]

I don't think I could name a single other breed whose national championship got cancelled, when on inspection, more than half of the qualifiers were barred the day of the finals.



an article about this btw...

http://horsetrainingsuccess.blogspot.com/2006/09/no-grand-champion-horse-this-year.html

it wasn't that the championship was cancelled perse, it was that because some people were disqualified the others decided to bow out as well in a show of support.

[Keket]

Tennesse Walking Horses, Saddlebreds, Paso Finos, etc: beautiful when natural.

But humans have a knack for corrupting the beautiful. Making two year olds doing the fantastic sliding stops and spins of reining. Making two year olds run races. Soring and gingering to exaggerate a natural movement.

[Dancinglite]

This is the way most gaited horses are shod.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/Dancinglite/shod.jpg

[TheWorldOver!]

Oh my God!! These last two pics of the hooves are so disturbing! :mad: Why can't this type of treatment be illegal? It's beyond unethical IMO.

[shoniedaspony]

[QUOTE=Dancinglite;1465979]This is the way most gaited horses are shod.

most of them?

trust me, most in england are definately not...

[Denbenj]

Jesus Christ almighty :eek: :eek: :mad:

[oumbagirl]

Tis beyond me why human's try to dominate so destructively. The good lord put us on this earth to be the ones who seemingly looked after and brought leadership to those with lesser attributes...(i think you call this stewardship:)) and this is not meant to be derogatory, but to highlight the fact that because humans have evolved to such an extent in the animal world, this does not give us the right to abuse what is the 'natural order'.

On a more teenage level... what plonkers these USA tennessee folks are if they get their kicks from inflicting such pain.
:mad:
Culture plays such an important part here... the Spanish are well known for their somewhat barbaric training methods so we cannot just attribute such cruelty to just one continent.:eek:

[Keket]

Tis beyond me why human's try to dominate so destructively. The good lord put us on this earth to be the ones who seemingly looked after and brought leadership to those with lesser attributes...(i think you call this stewardship:)) and this is not meant to be derogatory, but to highlight the fact that because humans have evolved to such an extent in the animal world, this does not give us the right to abuse what is the 'natural order'.

On a more teenage level... what plonkers these USA tennessee folks are if they get their kicks from inflicting such pain.
:mad:
Culture plays such an important part here... the Spanish are well known for their somewhat barbaric training methods so we cannot just attribute such cruelty to just one continent.:eek:

You may not have meant this post to be derogatory, but it is.

The TWH people don't get their kicks from inflicting pain. They get their kicks from winning. And unfortunately, they win by doing this. The "inflicting pain" part is the means to win, and to them, the ends justify the means. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM DEFENDING THEM! I too think it's barbaric and disgusting. I'm just saying that they aren't being cruel for the sake of it, they're doing it for money and prize ribbons and as long as it keeps working, they'll keep doing it.

And no, it's not a culture thing. It's an unfortunate part of some peoples' natures. Why bring just the Spanish into it? You know of no other European countries that have committed animal abuse? It's not a North American problem, it's not a Spanish problem, it's a human problem. Animal abuse exists worldwide. Which is why things like the International League for the Protection of Horses and the World Society for the Protection of Animals exist. The key worlds there are International and World.

Sorry if you didn't intend this post that way, but that's certainly how it came off.

Right, stepping off my soapbox now...

[Denbenj]

I agree... theres barbaric methods and cruelty in all countries. I would expect it less from countries such as UK,USA, Europen countries.. You can understand it more in maybe a third world country where they may be less informed and the horse is a commidty to survival/income. However there are charitys out there who are trying to educate such places..

I dont think countries such as USA,UK,SPAIN ( to select a few) have any excuses over welfare and access to information/vets/knowledgable help... sadly it still happens

[Bay Mare]

Have a look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g

which starts off with the horse as a 3 year old and then at her first World Championship :mad:

[Bay Mare]

Oh, and I have no idea why anyone would want to change such a beatiful creature into a parody :( As one of the comments says it's obscene and it's abuse.

[Denbenj]

Oh gosh, you know what that vid brought tears to my eyes.