Monty Roberts

[jUmPingIsLifE]

Discuss :D

I saw a clinic this weekend and I liked him. He stated over and over again we should never inflict pain on a horse to get them to go faster or do what we want. He talked about not riding with whips and spurs, we shouldn't ever inflict pain...

Then I sort of read through the buck strap thread. Im assuming MR means monty roberts and the buck strap sounds very painful?

I would really like more information on Monty and his methods as I was very impressed this past weekend with his pain free methods he taught.

[mayoguinness]

Yes the buck stopper is there to cause pain and fear to associate with bucking so I don't know how he can say that and the dually halter, doesn't that work by tightening around the horses head?Perhaps he could class some of his methods as pain free but I don't think some are definatly not fear free. I think there are better ways of acheiving the same result. More passive ways. Just my opinnion.

[Keket]

No, I completely agree. We should use spurs to cause pain. Doesn't mean we shouldn't use spurs though. ;) A spur used properly doesn't cause pain. And obviously, he's never seen a crop used on the ground as an extension of the arm.

I don't like Monty Roberts. I think it's a little hypocritical to endorse the Dually and the Buck Stop, but to say that a properly used spur and whip are cruel.

More on Monty:
http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/gimmicks.html
http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/index.html

[Yann]

Monty Roberts generally gets a good kicking here on NR ;) However it's worth remembering that without him most people would never have heard of or taken an interest in NH and the like if he hadn't raised its profile to such a degree. Plenty of people who now knock him and follow superior methods of horsemanship were originally set on that path because they watched one of his demos or read one of his books.

I'm personally not that keen on everything he does but there's no doubting his skill or how much he has acheived.

[Yann]

I think it's a little hypocritical to endorse the Dually

I can understand reticence about the buckstop but what's wrong with the dually? It's probably the mildest training halter you can buy and actually a very versatile bit of equipment. A thin rope halter packs a lot more punch as far as the horse is concerned.

[mayoguinness]

I agree that he did start the ball rolling for NH, no doubting that and started a lot of people out on there horsemanship journys but its moved on since then!

[MelanieD]

AFAIK MR doesn't have anything against spurs, he was wearing some at the demo I went to.. rubber ones! :)

YO decided to test the Dually's rope bit on my nose and I wasn't too convinced at it being totally pain free! But the horses do seem to respond well to it and listen without fighting as they do with a lot of halters and bits or totally ignoring it if they disagree like they can with a plain headcollar.

I doubt the buckstop is pain free but as long as the horse isn't bucking it is totally comfortable, the only horse I've ever seen in a buckstop didn't seem particularly distressed about it. Not a gadget i like really but can see its the lesser evil compared to ending up in a tin in extreme circumstances.

The kind of rough riding MR really objects to with big chain bits and digging spurs in until there's blood, hitting a horse out of temper etc is a long way from one yank in the gums with a soft rope.. I guess he's somewhere between nasty and totally gentle, and i do think its possible to go too far towards the 'poor pony must never ever feel any discomfort or stress' side.

[Keket]

I can understand reticence about the buckstop but what's wrong with the dually? It's probably the mildest training halter you can buy and actually a very versatile bit of equipment. A thin rope halter packs a lot more punch as far as the horse is concerned.

You're taking my comment out of context. Endorsing the Dually would be fine, if he were also willing to endorse other non-painful training aids; like spurs and whips. Anything, even the Dually, can be used harshly, but that doesn't mean that it has to be. And since they can all be used either helpfully or harmfully, to call it okay, but other things not okay, is hypocritical.

[jUmPingIsLifE]

Was thinking about getting my hands on a join up video. For someone who has done conventional lounging, parelli's circle game, and lounging for respect (Clinton anderson). Will I get a lot out of it? how differant is it really?

I watched him do some join up quickly (the demo I saw was a riding one so we only saw a brief go at the join up) but I loved how he said "the next thing we will see in our horse is..." and sure enough that was what we saw. It took him literally a minute or two to have this particular horse following him around like a puppy dog (he says before the demo he has never seen or worked with said horse)

[MelanieD]

Endorsing the Dually would be fine, if he were also willing to endorse other non-painful training aids; like spurs and whips. Anything, even the Dually, can be used harshly, but that doesn't mean that it has to be. And since they can all be used either helpfully or harmfully, to call it okay, but other things not okay, is hypocritical.

A Dually used badly can't come close to causing the kind of pain spurs used badly can.. and as for spurs used well.. MR uses spurs himself! Was wearing some at a demo I went to recently.

A whip is only nasty if the person using it wants it to be but if you're only going to flap it or use it lightly then there's the whip-wop which is a bit of soft rope that can do all the flapping a whip can but isn't possible to use to inflict pain.

[Keket]

But it can cause pain, nonetheless. If someone left one on a horse and the horse got hung up on something, would that not be pain? If it was put on too tight, would that not be pain? Yes, that would be improper use of it, but in my opinion, causing pain with spurs is an improper use of them.

And the spurs thing confuses me now. jumpingislife said that MR said that spurs aren't to be used, but you say he wears them himself. Either somebody misunderstood something, or he's changed his mind.

[Gurnosstud]

He says WE shouldn't inflict pain on a horse. With a buckstrap, it only causes pain if the horse chooses to buck. He'll buck once, and inflict pain on himself really then he knows that it will hurt if he bucks again. Its better than battering a horse with a whip when it bucks which is far less effective.
Anything can cause pain to a horse, including a rider's bad seat when learning to ride. Does this mean we should all stop riding horses?

[doris]

The spurs I saw MR wearing at a recent demo were rubber ones, with just a sort of latex blob on the end. I know this for sure because I was one of the people sitting in the front who was invited to have a feel of them.

I don't agree with everything he does, but he is responsible for changing many peoples' attitudes towards horse handling in general and that has got to be for the good of horses everywhere.

He has got a US website so if you do a google you should find it, as well as the UK site.

[Jane.A]

I think Monty has done a sterling job in promoting horse welfare and showing horse owners there are other ways. I think he is correct in saying we shouldn't inflict pain on the horse but we can show them that doing things that are unwanted behaviours have a consequence, ie they get to work harder. He is also careful to state that we should ensure that a behaviour isn't caused by discomfort. A message that still needs repeating. My dressage mare had terrible bitting problems. I lost count of the times I was told to fasten her mouth shut, which is a bit like saying fasten your shoe laces tighter and you wont feel the piece of gravel in your shoe! I said the key was to find the correct snaffle which we finally achieved. She is now happily working and has a loosly fitted drop, as she had got into the habit of opening her mouth but we soon be returning to a cavesson. The horse's mouth is the most sensitive organ we most commonly abuse. How often do people say my horse is very strong and put in a more severe bit rather than realise that actually the horse is unbalanced and on his forehand and needs re-training to engage his hocks and carry himself rather than lean on the rider's hands? Sorry I digress. Its one of my soapbox issues.:D
I think anything that causes riders to question if they can approach an equestrian dilemma from another more horse sensitive angle can only be beneficial to animal welfare. He certainly started the ball rolling for others such as Parelli, the Ross Simpson, Klaus Ferdinand and many others to market their take on natural horsemanship, some of which the old nags men had known for years but now its marketed and packaged so that its available to the masses rather than being a trade secret passed down to the fortunate few. I for one am grateful to him giving me the kick start I needed to travel my own personal road of discovery, after thinking for years that their had to be another way than that which some of my then trainers were advocating. I also now listen to my horse, after all who knows her better than me, and have the courage to say, no this behaviour is not disobedience but a cry for help, and knowing her well I can actually tell the difference. As I believe Mark Rashid says, horses don't lie.

[AengusOg]

I saw Monty Roberts around twelve years ago at Gleneagles. A friend bought me a ticket as a birthday present.

At that time he was about the first of the 'new age' horsemen to stick his head above the parapet and state his case. Many others have followed.

At that time the horse world was screaming out for new ideas, having been entrenched in the old (BHS), middle class elitist horsemanship on the one hand, and the old, traditional agricultural practises on the other. Both harboured some degrees of outdated ideas, and change had to come.

Even yet there must be change, but it won't come quickly. There are still people out there who react as if slapped in the face if Natural Horsemanship methods are suggested for their problem horses. They would rather look back than forward, for a solution; their resistance to change seems to be rooted in fear of such change, almost as if their shortcomings will suddenly become exposed to the world.

Take a look in the BHS Complete Manual of Stable Management, at the section on loading horses, as an example of outdated practises; outdated practises which are still being taught in colleges and yards/riding schools all across the industry today!.

Monty Roberts, for me , was an eye-opener, in that I saw with my own eyes that there is an alternative to those old ways. Many of the things he did were things that I'd been doing for years anyway in my work with agricultural stock, particularly the body language stuff.

I took a bit from his demo that evening, and incorporated it into my way of working with horses. I cannot agree with everything he does, and I see things I don't like in the work of other practitioners; I do however believe that all of them have something to offer as alternatives to what was taught/practised before they came.

Working with horses has to be progressive; anyone with a shred of compassion for horses, and an open mind, can be inovative in this age. The only thing which hampers change is inability to accept that change is neccessary.

Monty Roberts and all the others 'like' him, are very brave people who are driven by a need to change the future for horses. Like all of us, they are still just human beings. They can sometimes get it wrong.

[Jane.A]

Very well put AengusOg!

[MelanieD]

But it can cause pain, nonetheless. If someone left one on a horse and the horse got hung up on something, would that not be pain? If it was put on too tight, would that not be pain? Yes, that would be improper use of it, but in my opinion, causing pain with spurs is an improper use of them.


Well if you want to take it as far as that daft bit of logic about it could be painful if it got caught in something a normal headcollar could cause pain, letting a horse roll in a field where it might roll on a stone could cause pain :rolleyes:. Rugs get caught up in stuff sometimes, rugs are cruel!!

Endorsing the Dually would be fine, if he were also willing to endorse other non-painful training aids; like spurs and whips.

Why should MR have to endorse whips and spurs or any other training method just because he endorses the Dually? :rolleyes: Everyone recommends the stuff they like and don't recommend stuff they don't, fair enough. You're free to endorse whips and spurs and tell everyone the Dually is useless if you want to, though doubt anyone is going to be too interested :)

I've only been to one demo but MR explained that he was wearing rubber spurs because his legs were quite long for the size of horse and it made it easier to give leg aids. So he doesn't object to all spurs anyway, just the bad use of spurs.

[Yann]

Very well put AengusOg!

I agree :)

[jaydevon]

my horse was worked with by monty and the team, and the dually halter, although id fight montys corner any day, i can safeley i wont be using the dually again on my pain in the arse to load horse! not only in the hands of the experts did it cause my horse to rear (and he has done since loading him, he hadnt before) but after loading him this weekend aftrer a bit of a battle the pressure when he pulled backed caused him to wack his head on the trailer, so im back to stage one of using patiance, for some things i think the dually is fab, its stopped my mare trying to drag me to the nearest thing edible! but for pluto its made things so much worse,

[Yann]

the pressure when he pulled backed caused him to wack his head on the trailer

That's why they always use a poll guard. Are you sure you've got the process spot on? It might be that you're pushing things too hard if your horse is going up.

[mayoguinness]

He says WE shouldn't inflict pain on a horse. With a buckstrap, it only causes pain if the horse chooses to buck.
?
Oh come on:rolleyes:. The horse hardly choses to inflict pain on itself or wear the buckstopper. By putting the buckstopper on and knowing there a good chance the horse is going to buck when put into the position its uncomfortable with your knowing the horse is going to feel pain and so inflicting pain on the horse!

[martini55]

I'm interested why people don't like the dually? I personally think it is a great piece of equipment and use it for longreining. It does apply pressure across the nose (the hard bony part) yes... but why is that bad compared to say a rope halter? IMO the rope used is broad and soft, there is no 'bite' to it and it applies more pressure rather than inflict pain. Of course in the wrong hands, though, any piece of equipment could cause pain!

[jinglejoys]

I'm a little anxious about this loading horse:confused:
If its done correctly and Monty's way,surely by the time it gets to the top of the ramp it should almost be loading itself? Sounds as if there is a bit of "You WILL go in there!" instead of "Have I convinced you that it is safe enough to go in there?":)

[jaydevon]

That's why they always use a poll guard. Are you sure you've got the process spot on? It might be that you're pushing things too hard if your horse is going up.


he hit above his eye not the poll and it wasnt from rearing up it was from the pressure of the halter causing him to shoot his head up (not a small trailer takes 17.2hh), im very carful with him and have used prssure halters before its just the way he reacts to them when he did go up it was with one of montys guys!

[jaydevon]

I'm a little anxious about this loading horse:confused:
If its done correctly and Monty's way,surely by the time it gets to the top of the ramp it should almost be loading itself? Sounds as if there is a bit of "You WILL go in there!" instead of "Have I convinced you that it is safe enough to go in there?":)


even at the demo when they took the pen away and expected him to walk straight in he didint, he started again, before monty he would always load but it took a very long time he had never reared up and once gave in walked straight in and munched hay, the first time after demo i loaded him gave him a treat shut the ramp took him out took about 15 mins to get him in, loaded him again recently and it went badly. trust me there is NO you will go in there, ive always done it when ive had hours of time just in case, and i dont loose my temper i just keep going until he goes in knowing he will! and where pluto is concerned i have the patiance of a saint!

[AengusOg]

Hi jaydevon

The first thing I should say is that I do not mean any of the following to be directed at you or your methods of horsemanship.

I would say to you that each horse is very different when it comes to loading.

I would also be interested to know how your horse first became difficult to load, and why you chose to offer him up for an NH demo.

As far as the rearing goes, I would be very loathe to blame the dually halter or the horse. I have posted a fairly lengthy post on the subject of rearing elsewhere on this site.

The most important things about loading any horse with any type of 'pressure halter' are the subtle, gentle, but firm use of the halter, and the timing of the release of the pressure as reward for compliance. The timing is crucial.

Some difficult loaders will try anything to avoid loading; there may be lots of reasons for this, sometimes these will be known to the handler, most times not. However, there are horses which have become difficult to load purely through ineffective handling, having beaten their handlers on many occasions, and being 'let off the hook' as a result. This type of difficult loader may have started with a planting of the feet till that seemed not to be working, whereupon they would perhaps try a toss of the head and shoot off the ramp; next time they may slip down the outside of the trailer; next time backing up and towing the handler around the yard. These horses are usually handled in a head collar and short lead rope up to the point when the handler is advised to use a pressure halter and suddenly, because neither horse nor handler have enough experience, or perhaps because the handler does not fully appreciate that the pressure halter is a very different thing, which requires very sensitive, accurate handling, the horse will even try a rear in response to the wrong use of the pressure halter.

Rearing horses are made by bad, inept (and sometimes not firm enough) handling. If that were not the case, a horse would rear if you put a pressure halter on his head and turned him away.

If you put a pressure halter on a horse's head, put pressure on it to encourage him to do something, then neglect to release it immediately you get the correct response from him, you are going to get a negative response, and if you hang onto him too tightly for too long he will fight you, there is no doubt about it.

Some horses will rear as a matter of course if they feel things are not going their way, particularly if they have been successful in beating the handler in the past. It's how the handler deals with him at the time he tries a rear as an evasion, that defines whether he will quickly decide that rearing is not getting the response he seeks (ie work stops and he is put away), or ( if the handler fails to react correctly) he becomes a confirmed rearer. Please read my post on rearing horses....it will help you understand what I'm trying to say here. The easiest way to make a horse rear is to hang onto his head!

I can't get my head round it when people try a pressure halter without really knowing even how it works, and then tell the whole world how useless it is when things go wrong.

I work with difficult loaders more often than with any other kind of problems; I've travelled huge distances to load horses for people who know that I can achieve what others couldn't, and I do it all with a 'Be Nice' halter and a lunge rope, that's all. I cannot emphasise enough: its about applying firm pressure when asking, and getting your timing right when releasing the pressure to reward compliance. If you get those things right you could load a horse with a piece of string; I know because I've done it.

Please don't feel that I'm having a go at you personally jaydevon; I'm not.

The unfortunate thing about all this is that there are some people who fully understand the principles of how it works, but still can't bring themselves to do it for fear of making their horse worse.

I try to explain to them that rather than train the horse to load, I have actually trained it to do as it's asked without faffing about. That is an entirely different thing.

I'm sorry this post is so long.........once I start ranting I find it difficult t.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[jaydevon]

not taken personally, thankyou for the responce, the rearing is something i knew he done in general, previous owner warned me of it but its only ever been when hacking and not wanting to go forward, hed NEVER even lifted a foot of the floor until the monty demo, since then its been in his mind. and hes used it.

when i picked him up it was in a lorry no problems, in the pass 6 months hes been travelled in the trailer 5 times, worst time it took me 45 mins to load him. on talking to his previous owner and her trying to load him, she decided to mention that he could of had a bad journey when he was sent to be taught to jump, i wouldnt be surprised as he also came back with a splint and a twisted pelvis! and was funny about his head. the incident at the weekend was caused by the halter for 2 reasons.... 1 pluto being to dam clever and relising load treat pat out... he went in and flew out me not expecting it put pressure on the halter and hes head went up, so yes i accept it was also down to me.

why i offered him to monty for the demo was for 2 reasons, 1 he is a spooky horse and the surroundings done him the world of good, and because of the loading, up until this point he was an arse but didnt actually do anything if you know what i mean, hed walk to the ramp eiter put fronts on of just side step it, or off it adventually give in and walk in, he didnt pull back he didnt do anything daft, i had spent time with the trailer open and feeding him in and and just walking through ect. it a large trailer and ive always moved the patition over,

i shall now go back to basics, further more its infurating! but i know that losing my temper with him would result in him not trusting me. your ideas and feed back are welcomed.

[Yann]

It's a bit of a cliche but loading problems are generally leading problems. What's he like away from the trailer? I would suggest working on getting him really light on his feet in all directions and leading nicely on a slack line at your shoulder and stopping when you stop etc. I'd also get him walking over scary things, boards, tarps and anything else you can lay your hands on. It will all make a difference to the loading.

As far as the loading itself goes have you got the idea regarding taking the line at an angle and asking for a sideways rather than forward step? As AO suggests the timing of the release is absolutely crucial.

I know it's possible to come away from a demo thinking 'Wow Monty fixed that horse' but it often takes a lot more time and effort to really sort the issue out, and what you see at the demo is only the very beginning :)

[jaydevon]

hes great leading in general dont need a rope, even for back up turn on fore hand ect, as he steps of the ramp to the side i often get him back up from where he is stood rather than taking him away and re presenting him,

hes in patiant in the stable which is the same in the trailer if u have to stop takes him 3 seconds before hes banging!

i never thought monty was a quick fix, hence why i carried on with the loading, i came away really annoyed that he had been put in the position that caused him to rear reared up,

[Spoof]

Was thinking about getting my hands on a join up video. For someone who has done conventional lounging, parelli's circle game, and lounging for respect (Clinton anderson). Will I get a lot out of it? how differant is it really?

Anderson's roundpenning is the same thing as MR's join up and the old style John Lyons stuff. eg, horse runs out the flight, then looks to you for guidance. Then you offer the horse an option, and they can chose to take it or run.

Of all the above I prefer CA's finished product better.

With MR, you have to roundpen fairly frequently to keep you on top, because it doesn't change your bad habits, or the horse's. He/she will still challenge you every day, and you'll let them because you don't know any better.

With CA's series, you gain the respect, then carry it throughout the entire riding program. You'll also learn to fix your bad habits, and not allow the horse to go there to start the problem. Like I mentioned above, his finished horses are nice.

I didn't mention the circling game or regular lunging. These are like oil and water to the two above.

The Parelli system teaches you. Great system, but your horse is usually only good for you and other PNH people. Try putting a non-Parelli person on a well-trained Parellized horse and it is really entertaining... for you. Probably not for the horse or the victi<cough>rider.

Lunging is having your horse exercise in a circle around you, if he is willing. I used it to 'run the steam' off of excited horses back in the day. Not terribly useful if you have a lazy horse that doesn't want to go. You end up getting more of a workout than they do!

[jinglejoys]

O.K. just another thought.
When I had sarah-lee she was very difficult to load.I eventually pursuaded her to do so but only because I wrapped the long lead rope round the chest bar and said "when you're ready,by the way its you standing out there in the pouring rain and me standing in here in the dry eating your Polo Mints!":D
Then one day I did something ever so simple and just put a layer of straw on the ramp and she walked straight in! Never had a problem after that in fact she would take me in.
Oh and I always leave the jockey door open to so it gets rid of that claustraphobic feeling.

[jaydevon]

havent tried the straw on the ramp but to open the trailer up to take away the confined space eliment, the ramp isnt atall slippery, i did a few days before going to the demo load him quite easy onto a lorry, the gates stopped him stepping of the edges. so we have been thinging of either building some on to the trailer of somepoint next year changing to a box,

what i dont want to do is start making it a stressful thing for him so i think its going to be a case of just getting him to walk through it,... which should stop the shooting out backwards. when he does that withought any fuss shall move on, i dont mean in 1 session a mean each time hes loaded, im in no rush to take him anywhere so time isnt a problem. going back to monty in general, theres been a few things i wouldnt agree with but in general he has opened many peoples eyes and made a lot of people think about other methods,

[Yann]

With MR, you have to roundpen fairly frequently to keep you on top

That's not actually correct.

[AengusOg]

jaydevon

This horse of yours has learned to use evasions to get his own way.

You say that the previous owners warned you that he may rear, and you say that he has done so with you when being ridden out.

The fact that he did not rear with you when trying to load him, but did when MR's boys tried, suggests to me that he had not been pushed to that level before, and, when he was, he immediately reared to see if he was going to get away with it. That's what they (horses) do.

If you, in your work with him at home, have been too soft with him for fear of making him worse, then he will know what your limitations have been up to now. When you take him on to the next 'level', where you ask for something more than you have done already, he is bound to try something else if he doesn't want to do it.

When a horse is on the ramp, and you ask him to step forward by putting pressure on him with the rope and halter, if he starts to throw his head up there is going to be a danger of him hitting his head on the trailer roof (as you say). The way to prevent this is to watch and feel for the moment he starts to raise his head and, as he does, you have to let the rope slip a few inches through your fingers, so as to 'take the steam out' of his reaction. At this point he will actually stop the upward movement of his head; then you must simultaneously grip the rope (for a fraction of a second) to prevent him stepping back, then immediately release it again, and you should be able to prevent him hitting his head. If you are constantly afraid of him hitting his head (as anyone should be), you cannot possibly be giving him enough incentive to advance into the box. Only by using the above technique can you train him not to throw his head.

If it were possible to watch that in individual photo frames, you would see pressure to ask him forward, followed by a momentary release of pressure as he starts to lift his head, followed by a check on the rope as he decides not to throw his head and (hopefully) stands on the ramp without backing off, followed by immediate release of pressure to reward him.

After five or so seconds you need to ask him forward again and be prepared to do it all again. If he has nothing to pull against when he tries to throw his head, he will refrain from doing so, and will quickly give it up as a means of evasion. On the other hand, if you hold onto him as he flicks his head he will quickly turn that into a rear, and probably back off the ramp as well.

Some horses are very fearful of coming up the ramp or entering the trailer and, in the process, standing on/otherwise hurting the handler. Be aware of this and watch your body language and try not to actually prevent him for that reason. Some horses like the handler to go into the box ahead of them, while others like the handler to walk in with them at their head once they are at the top of the ramp. You have to watch closely and try different ways to work that one out.

The other thing I was going to say is this: if he steps off the side of the ramp, if you ask him to come on again from that position (as you said you've done), you are (in part at least) giving in to that evasion. You really must take him back or round till he is facing the ramp again (representing him as you say) so that you consistently demonstrate to him what is required, and, more importantly, what is not allowed.

At all times you must use your voice only to praise him, and only when he does something right; a lot of handlers use the voice at the wrong moment, in fact often praising the horse for doing nothing. Use the halter to ask and reward; use the voice to back up the release reward, this will quickly and effectively reinforce the message to him that he has done well.

Most of all.......keep the heid.

[jaydevon]

thankyou for that reply! he is a bugger, nothing is done at speed on hes behalf, he dosnt throw his head about normally,

the rearing at the demo was because of the amount of pressure put on the halter, i learned after from his previus owner he was funny with his head she could only put it down to something happening to him whilst he was on loan, but then she said id never clip his face and managed it! back was checked this week and found he was out at the top of his neck and left should, lady suggested it had been there for sometime, so not sure if that could of played a part,

the more ive thought about it the more i think it was actually my fault he hit his head in the trailer, he learnt in , pat treat and out, so he went in had a pat and shot out... the bugger learns quick!! so on that point i shall open up the trailer and start walking him right through to brake that habbit,

because of the type of horse he is i am going to go back to to a normal headcollar, and sit it out so to speak as i know he will go in,

i do not want him to get in the habit of using a rear as a way out, and where the trailer is concerned, i am not willing to give him a wack at that time as i dont want him to accociate being hit with the trailer.

we are using the trailer at the weekend so whilst its hitched up i shall start with the work again,

one question would be bearing in mind he learns quick, in the past i have loaded him up to 5 times in one go would you suggest this is the best way or to get him to walk through once praise and leave it there, and then the next time say may be get him to stop in the trailer then walk out, .... 1st thing i have to change is him antcipating backing out.

[AengusOg]

the rearing at the demo was because of the amount of pressure put on the halter,

I've posted elsewhere on the subject of rearing; it's not accurate to say that the horse reared due to the amount of pressure put on the halter. What actually happens there is that the horse refuses to walk forward with the initial amount of pressure, because he has learned previously that he can stand against the pressure and the handler will eventually give, and he will be off the hook. If the handler holds that pressure, or increases it, then the horse has a choice; he can either move forward, whereupon the handler should give at that point, thus rewarding him; or he can try a further evasion which may be anything from a flick of his head to a full rear.

In order to persuade a horse to load when it won't, the handler must maintain the pressure in order to get some compliance, otherwise the horse will not load. The horse may choose to come forward, or he may try something else, to avoid loading.

the more ive thought about it the more i think it was actually my fault he hit his head in the trailer,
It is always the handlers fault if a horse hits his head in the trailer, as I've tried to point out in my last post.

so on that point i shall open up the trailer and start walking him right through to brake that habbit,
Walking him through the trailer has its dangers. If you look at the angle of the front ramp when it's down, you will see that it is such that, when taking a horse out the front, the handler has at some point to step off the ramp and onto the ground. This is usually about the time when the horse's front feet touch the ramp, and his quarters touch the centre partition. This, particularly in a horse with the problem we are discussing, quite often results in the horse rushing forward, and the handler (having had to step off the ramp) losing control. Some handlers in that situation will try to slow the horse with their elbow, which is dangerous in itself. Some handlers end up with back injuries or get stood on.
The front ramps should really only be used in an emergency, when the rear ramp cannot be used safely, such as in the event of a breakdown or an accident. As a matter of fact, most trailers in this country have the front ramp on the wrong side, meaning that the horse has to be unloaded into the traffic, in such circumstances. The Bateson trailers are the exception.
It's safer for you both if you train your horse to back quietly off the box.

because of the type of horse he is i am going to go back to to a normal headcollar, and sit it out so to speak as i know he will go in,

I hope that works for you, but I suspect he may now refuse totally in a normal headcollar.

i do not want him to get in the habit of using a rear as a way out, and where the trailer is concerned, i am not willing to give him a wack at that time as i dont want him to accociate being hit with the trailer.
I don't understand this part. If you read my last post you will see how to dissuade him from developing rearing as an evasion. At no point did I advocate giving him a 'wack'. In fact I must say I do not condone any physical reprimanding of horses, under any circumstances.



one question would be bearing in mind he learns quick, in the past i have loaded him up to 5 times in one go would you suggest this is the best way or to get him to walk through once praise and leave it there, and then the next time say may be get him to stop in the trailer then walk out, .... 1st thing i have to change is him antcipating backing out.[/QUOTE]

I would say first that if you get your horse to load at all, you would be wise to do it once, and then do something enjoyable for him, or put him 'away' straight after. With this horse I would not wish to spoil him by re-trying him at this stage. If you have a success, treat it as such, make a huge fuss of him and try again another day. You could sour him if you try too much too soon.

To help stop him backing out, you have to train him beforehand to recognise, and respond to, very subtle use of the halter; that is he should be trained to stand quietly, to move forward, and to back up, one step at a time, in fact to be placed wherever you'd like him and to stay there. To do this you should ask him to place his feet, and when he is where you want him, leave his head alone. If you mess around with his head after you've placed him he will fidget; if he refuses to stand quietly when placed, you should re-place him till he will. When he does, don't touch him with the halter, he must be allowed to stand without pressure. That way he'll learn to stand, or to move one step at a time. Then when you load him you should be able to control his exit. The more of this type of groundwork you do before attempting to load him, the better you chances of success.

[jaydevon]

hi!
on the subject of the rearing, i was sugesting me smaking him not sorry for the confusion! i dont want to punish him unless really have to if he is any where near the trailer. he reared at the demo when the guy was told to put more pressure on and it was kind of guy lent back full weight into the rope.

i hadnt expected him to fly out backwards hence why he got the unexpected pressure from me.

as far as walking him through the trailer goes, i can move the patition over and its no where near him, and front ramp is very flat and about 4foot wide so its quite inviting. i had done this with him before and had great success.

his ground work is really good, he will back up turn wait ect with out and pressure, hes not the sort of horse that would run you down, i dont think hes scared (well be worried about banging his head now.) but i may be wrong, its deff something that has got worse, and like i siad before loading into the lorry took 2 mins, 3 times up i let him off and he took himself in. so it may be a case of he hates trailers, but at least for emergancey reasons he has to load.

thankyou for your advice, i have taken a lot on board, if it takes me 12 hours at the weekend the bugger is going in. im intrested aswell to see what happens with a normal headcollar,

i guess there is also a chance he now sees the dually as a form of pain as well, although i have done some ground work with it on since and theres was no problems.

[AengusOg]

Horses should not be physically punished under any circumstances.

[jaydevon]

there was thread on horse and hound forum a few days ago on this subject, mad very intresting reading!

[AengusOg]

jaydevon..the other thing which is important to you at this stage is this:

If, when you load your horse, he at any time begins to back out of the box (in effect taking control), you must be quick and use the halter to back him out yourself. Do this using the rope and halter, with small pushing movements to ask him to back out. Keep doing it till he is completely out and then stop him, set him up, and load him again. If you do this he will quickly realise that you can take control back very quickly. He will be less inclined to take the initiative the next time, as you've made it uncomfortable for him to back out without your 'permission'.

This will be your first step toward getting him to back out under control, at your bidding, and in your time. Once you can load him and he will stand for even a few seconds without trying to back off, you can then begin to teach him to back out one step at a time by asking him to step back, then as he does so, slightly checking him with rope and halter. As soon as he offers to stop you must ask him to back again for another step. As he gets it, you can check him for fractionally longer each time, before asking him again to step back again. If you repeat this all the way off the ramp he will become easy to unload quietly, and at your bidding. If at any time he tries to rush back, you must take control, as before, and back him straight out using the rope and halter, set him up, and try again.

Watch your body language; look at him momentarily as you ask him to back; turn your body slightly away from him as you ask him to stop.

Good luck.

[rosiej]

Hi Im new here (so dont eat me for breakfast yet please!!)

Firstly, I have never seen any horse hurt his head on the trailer or lorry while being loaded by monty, or kelly marks. I use duallys on 99.99% of loading problems I travel to work with and do not find any correlation with using a dually and rearing or hitting heads. I cant in fact imagine attempting to load or lead a horse without one now! I'm afraid I dont defend them out of loyalty at all, but simply because they really do work superbly for me and Im hoping to share the things that work for me with others - and learn the things that have worked for them too.
Monty can make a huge difference at a demo, but often the horse needs some 'homework' to follow up the work done in the one evening.
I would really suggest you give an RA a ring to discuss Pluto, RAs are trained by Kelly in Montys methods and might be able to really help you along the right track - loading problems are so often easily improved with the right technqiue, its a shame to struggle on when it could be so much easier on him and you with just a few pointers - it sounds like youare really on the right lines and clearly really doing the best for Pluto which is great.


I really also suggest looking into your transport type, if loading problems reoccur there is often another reason - is he travelling comfortably? Is the breast bar leaving invisible bruises? The dust from a hay net making him wheezy? Is the trailer too small for him - I saw the demo and although only 15.2 he has a very high head carriage. Is he comfortable and secure in his travelling equipment - some boots make horses worse to load! Look at all the options you can.


I have always been open minded to any non violent methods that work, and have found Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks way of working to be so refreshing and useful, I think because it is so versatile - I can help people with bucking horses, cheeky kids ponies, racehorses, eventers, headshy horses, nappy, lazy, fizzy, bolshy, nervy, spooky, foot handling, catching, loading, travelling horses - the list is endless, and the best thing is each horse is treated entirely individually and that combined with the ethos of continually searching to make it easier and more comfortable for the horse to get it right, means that the methods are always evolving and growing, you learn to problem solve and tryuly understand horse psychology rather than just learn set patterns, so that I feel equiped to deal with any equine situation without having to make it fit into a box.

I havnt yet found a 'training problem' that I havnt been able to succeed with safely and without violence using these methods.
But I dont want to give the impression Im a closed book - I love to discuss these things and hear all sides.
:)

[mayoguinness]

I cant in fact imagine attempting to load or lead a horse without one now!
:)

Why? I thought the dually halter was just for training! I mean 95% when I'm leading horses around the farm its at liberty or with a piece of rope round there neck! Eeven when working with my two horses which have huge problems with loading, I find liberty's the best way, halter if I really must but never a pressure halter as I want the horse to come not out of having to but out of wanting too, same with leading a horse, I want them to be able to be honest and tell the truth.

[Crystal Fire]

Jaydevon, it sounds as if it might be handy to have someone look at what is going on with your loading. I think that the best way to find someone is to ask around and get a personal recommendation, maybe someone here can help you, rather than use someone just because they belong to a particular organisation, be it Parelli, ANH, IH etc etc. I think there does come a point in situations like yours where someone looking at things afresh can be a very useful thing.

[jaydevon]

hi all i should of updated you... i have done loads of work with pluto, i did stop using the dually as the pressure wasnt working for him, so i went back to a normal head collar, and i done it all very slowly, to combat him rushing out we took the partition out and opened it up, and just walked him through,

oddly enough apart from the fact he still has to step off the ramp at least once he nows go in with a gentle pull.

i do not dispute the dually, ive been using it with my mare and its been great, but pluto can be funny about his head and it simply didnt suit him.

[Crystal Fire]

I agree with you, I don't think the Dually suits all horses, and I don't think they should just be put on every horse as a matter of course. I have known other horses react badly to the Dually, and one of mine had a nasty accident when one was used on her (by an RA), so naturally I have reservations.
It's great to hear that things are going so well for you now, sometimes it's just a matter of taking a step back and slowing down, as has obviously worked for you. :)

[jaydevon]

its amazing how horses react so differently, i wouldnt want to put nyone off using the dually, it took me a lot of time with pluto, hes a stubborn horse, but very willing and very trusting, with the loading, i think i messed it up for him, he is so intelligent, he goes in has a treat and backs out.... why onearth wouldnt he doing it quickly to get it over and done with!

generally speaking i use human pshycology on horses... if you know what i mean. when i stepped back and look at pluto he was doing what wed do on a visit to the dentist...rush in and out get it over and done with!