Calling all level 3 graduates of Parelli!!! (official or unofficial)

[Meovcorz]

Statement in the title really. Would you say it was all worthwhile. Did you decide to do more? And why? Why did you decide to start level 2 when you had finished level 1, and why did you decide to start level 3 when you had already completed level 2?

[Meovcorz]

Bumpity Bump.

[Waikato Valuta]

I don't think there are many level 3 graduates on the forum. It takes years of hard work and dedication not to mention utter faith in the Parelli method.

I have done bits of level 1 and 2 (Unofficial).

I like parts of the system and not other parts. Where are you at right now? Have you done any Parelli before?

[mayoguinness]

Think Crystle Fire got to level 3! and I'm sure theres a couple of others on here!

[wonkeywoody]

Hi, (not a graduate of level 3 - still working on it!)
I started P after 34 years of BHS (style). Reason? My horse had become an excellent rearer and NOTHING else was working! Started P as the website said level 1 would help cure that problem (amongst a host of others' - some of which he did too but not to any serious extent).
It was like magic. He responded really well. I noticed MASSIVE changes alround in him and in my confidence. I progressied to level 2 before completing level 1 as he was better at some games than others and I didnt want him to get stale. Ditto starting level 3.
I have thoroughly enjoyed having a different angle at which to approach problems. Its nice to not have to chose either hacking/schooling/jumping but being able to 'play' instead. Its a fun way of overcoming alkinds of problems.
I WISH I'd had all this knowledge years ago.
Lots of people dismiss NH/Parelli or bits of. I'm the same with more classical stuff. Suppose its each to their own, but having had to decide whether to open my mind and views or PTS my (then dangerous) horse I am glad I ventured on this journey. I will certainly be very different with the way I bring on future horses.

[Crystal Fire]

Nope, I didn't get to level 3. :D I've done a fair bit of the level 3 groundwork and liberty, but in terms of tasks completed I left Parelli around the middle of level 2 somewhere.
If you want my absolutely honest and strictly personal opinion...?
I studied Parelli for years, including working in the organisation for a while. For a lot of that time I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. I irritated the hell out of people by saying "Why don't you try Parelli for that problem?" a lot :rolleyes: Then as I started to look around at other trainers, and also looked at what I was learning with a more questioning attitude, I started to re-evaluate what I was learning. There had always been some aspects of Parelli that made me uncomfortable because I thought they were a bit harsh or confrontational, so I kind of faffed about not doing much for about a year - hosting clinics but not taking a horse. I had also seen quite a lot of senior PNH people (including Pat) working with horses and was not sure if I wanted to become like them.
Then some instructors left Parelli and, as a result of learning with other horsemen and also because they had more flexibility, their teaching styles changed. Some of them were the trainers I aspired to be, and I needed to learn more about why. I spent a month in Australia with Steve Halfpenny and was blown away by how quickly I learnt to work with a horse at "level 3" of softness and responsiveness, skipping over the "level 1 + 2" stage altogether. I asked Steve "Why were we mucking about for all those years for when we could go straight to this?" and he said words to the effect of "I know". I have also attended clinics with Phil Rodey, Philip Nye, Mark Rashid and others, all of them very valuable and useful. In Parelli this was discouraged, as Pat once said to me "Until you've passed level 3 you ain't got the savvy to evaluate different trainers". Maybe not evaluate, but certainly I was able to learn from them.
I like that I no longer use 4 phases of pressure to teach. I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes. I love being encouraged to study as widely as possible in my horsemanship (for example I have a fantastic classical trainer helping me with ridden work). Oh yes, and I've decided, to quote Phil Rodey "This ain't playing games, this is darn serious".
So for me it was worth the study in Parelli because I learnt a lot and it opened me up to learning so much more. Why did I keep on going through the levels and tasks? Because all my friends were and I wanted to be an instructor. Would I do it again with hindsight? No, from the start I'd pursue my learning with some of the less well known horsemen whose style is more in keeping with how I want to be around horses. (Which takes much more time, imagination and effort because you don't get a complete programme of 3 levels to follow :)).
As I said, that's just my personal opinion and experience, others will be completely different I know.

[mayoguinness]

Nope, I didn't get to level 3. :D I've done a fair bit of the level 3 groundwork and liberty, but in terms of tasks completed I left Parelli around the middle of level 2 somewhere.
If you want my absolutely honest and strictly personal opinion...?
I studied Parelli for years, including working in the organisation for a while. For a lot of that time I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. I irritated the hell out of people by saying "Why don't you try Parelli for that problem?" a lot :rolleyes: Then as I started to look around at other trainers, and also looked at what I was learning with a more questioning attitude, I started to re-evaluate what I was learning. There had always been some aspects of Parelli that made me uncomfortable because I thought they were a bit harsh or confrontational, so I kind of faffed about not doing much for about a year - hosting clinics but not taking a horse. I had also seen quite a lot of senior PNH people (including Pat) working with horses and was not sure if I wanted to become like them.
Then some instructors left Parelli and, as a result of learning with other horsemen and also because they had more flexibility, their teaching styles changed. Some of them were the trainers I aspired to be, and I needed to learn more about why. I spent a month in Australia with Steve Halfpenny and was blown away by how quickly I learnt to work with a horse at "level 3" of softness and responsiveness, skipping over the "level 1 + 2" stage altogether. I asked Steve "Why were we mucking about for all those years for when we could go straight to this?" and he said words to the effect of "I know". I have also attended clinics with Phil Rodey, Philip Nye, Mark Rashid and others, all of them very valuable and useful. In Parelli this was discouraged, as Pat once said to me "Until you've passed level 3 you ain't got the savvy to evaluate different trainers". Maybe not evaluate, but certainly I was able to learn from them.
I like that I no longer use 4 phases of pressure to teach. I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes. I love being encouraged to study as widely as possible in my horsemanship (for example I have a fantastic classical trainer helping me with ridden work). Oh yes, and I've decided, to quote Phil Rodey "This ain't playing games, this is darn serious".
So for me it was worth the study in Parelli because I learnt a lot and it opened me up to learning so much more. Why did I keep on going through the levels and tasks? Because all my friends were and I wanted to be an instructor. Would I do it again with hindsight? No, from the start I'd pursue my learning with some of the less well known horsemen whose style is more in keeping with how I want to be around horses. (Which takes much more time, imagination and effort because you don't get a complete programme of 3 levels to follow :)).
As I said, that's just my personal opinion and experience, others will be completely different I know.

Oh right, well I was close:D I like that I no longer use 4 phases of pressure to teach. I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes. I love being encouraged to study as widely as possible in my horsemanship
Ditto, same for me when I met Jayne!;)

[Dancinglite]

Since this thread is not in the Natural Horsemanship forum ( where I will not go) I assume it is open for all comments good or bad.

I cannot condone a training system that is so closed minded that it disses other training systems soley for the purpose of selling "gagets" at ridiculously high prices to the masses of people that think looking at one of these expensive DVD's makes them into the worlds next super trainer.

I have seen more dangerous antics performed by the 30 minute dvd parelli "instant trainer" than I have ever seen by the average person that has been coached under the usual school situations.

[india]

I passed L1 & L2 ( L2 groundwork) and unofficially went through the online and liberty tasks of L3. Would I say it was worthwhile.........YES YES YES, it was thanks to this programme and especially Kaffa Murray (3* PNH instructor) that I was able to help my horse overcome a serious behaviour problem, pain free and without the need of any gadgets.!!!!! :)

Although I no longer study the programme, I still believe Pat Parelli is one of the world's best trainers...there's some things he's done and still does that I'm not comfortable with.... also some tools I would never use, ie: a PNH 12' rope with a bull clip...to harsh for my liking. But that's my personal choice. The thing is, most folks don't realise........you DON'T have to use the PNH gear to practice (or pass) the levels or does it insist you follow it to the rule, (there's only one rule, and that is there are no rules);)

There's always going to be folk that knock the system... mainly it's those who've studied the programme a little, think they know it all – go out and wreck their horse and then blame it on the training method. Others think they know a lot but are often only making assumptions or blind guesses.:rolleyes:

Every training method has it's faults, but PNH must be getting something right (besides their excellent marketing strategies) to have been around so long and have hundreds of thousand students worldwide...let's face it - no business could survive and grow on good marketing alone.

;)

I would recommend it to anyone...take from it what suits your personal circumstances and goals.

[Waikato Valuta]

There's always going to be folk that knock the system... mainly it's those who've studied the programme a little, think they know it all – go out and wreck their horse and then blame it on the training method. Others think they know a lot but are often only making assumptions or blind guesses.

Ok, has anyone here see the video in pack 1?

Parelli say something like this:

We use the 12' foot rope and then we double it to the 22' rope. And then what do we do? That's right we double it again to a 45' rope.:confused:

Now is it just me or is the maths off there?

After seeing that video I lost all respect for the system. I have done level 1 and parts of 2 but I would never buy anything from him. His prices are extortion.

It's not that the system didn't work for me or that I wrecked my horse. I just don't agree with some of his methods. If you want to do it that way, go for it. But you can't dismiss me as making assumptions and blind guesses.

[india]

Ok, has anyone here see the video in pack 1?

Parelli say something like this:

We use the 12' foot rope and then we double it to the 22' rope. And then what do we do? That's right we double it again to a 45' rope.:confused:

Now is it just me or is the maths off there?

After seeing that video I lost all respect for the system. I have done level 1 and parts of 2 but I would never buy anything from him. His prices are extortion.

Sorry, genuinely confused here.....

You first say that you lost all respect for the PNH system after watching the video in level one and that you wouldn't buy anything from him. Yet in the same paragraph you state that you've done L1 & part of L2.......why did you study a system you had no respect for...and how was you able to study parts of L2 :confused:

The incorrect rope measurements on the video was intentional, it's just one of many irritating little quips that PP throws around. ;)

[india]

.... I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes.....

Now I don't think you intended to write that did you CF....think you could have missed a little word out. :D

DOH......I get it now (think I've had one glass of wine to many tonight)!!!!!

[fairlady]

Well I personally follow my own system. I read up on different things and the things that make sense to me I will try. I would not follow any system to the letter as there is lots of things I personally do not agree with. However, I feel it is very important to keep an 'open mind' and if you are failing miserably with one method be open minded enough to read up and try another method or system.

I love some of the Pat Parelli stuff and disagree with some others. Take bits that will help you and apply them and disregard the rest.

[Waikato Valuta]

I had an instructor who did Parelli. I did level 1 and some 2 with her before I brought anything.

As I said, it's not "all" bad. I still use many of the exercises.

I just think there are cheaper ways to do the same thing.

[Kate F.]

I spent a month in Australia with Steve Halfpenny and was blown away by how quickly I learnt to work with a horse at "level 3" of softness and responsiveness, skipping over the "level 1 + 2" stage altogether. I asked Steve "Why were we mucking about for all those years for when we could go straight to this?" and he said words to the effect of "I know".

There was an interesting discussion a little while ago in the NH section that touched on this, and I'd be interested in what you think, CF. After the usual backwards and forwards about pros and cons of Parelli, the poster drew a distinction between behaviourism, or rather behavioural based training, and natural horsemanship. She said, if she wants to know why a horse behaves in a certain way, she'll go to a behaviourist, if she wants to know what to do when the horse behaves in a certain way, she goes to Parelli.

(The discussion was over the horsenality chart - and I'd said I found it very anthropmorphic and not helping people understand how a horse thinks. She said that wasn't the point - it was meant to be anthropomorphic because it's for people to quickly assess what's happening and have a path of action.)

I think you and I, CF, are primarily interested in WHY the horse does what it does, and from that making our own strategy of how to deal with it. We look at what a wide variety of trainers do, and in the context of understanding where the horse is coming from, can pick and choose between what we see. We're more the behaviourists who first want to know what's going on, then choose from a "tool box" which contains a lot of NH type tools alongside others, in deciding what to do. Therefore we can go straight to the "Level 3", if you like, as we want to start from the "why" side anyway.

However, I can also see that not everyone comes at things like that. For many people, they want to follow a set pattern and have confidence it will work. That's where Parelli comes in. He doesn't require anyone to think about it - he just sets out the rules, and therefore needs the "mucking about:p" to get the people into line, with them simply following rules (or games, to make it sound more friendly!). The Level 1 and 2 puts in the level of conditioning of the PEOPLE. When you look at it like this - and bear in mind his "so simple even adults can do it" slogan, and the principles of only Level 3 people and over handling young or problem horses, it starts to fall into place.

So I guess my answer to the OP would be, consider what you want to achieve and how. There are different paths and with different aims. If you want a neatly ordered programme that you can follow and have reasonable confidence it will work in most situations - Parelli is great - he does the thinking for you - you just follow the pattern. If you want a deeper understanding for yourself of what it really going on in the horse's mind and how you can relate to it, you will probably find it more satisfying (and possibly cheaper!) to look for a more behavioural based approach, because, as CF says, for the behaviourists the first 2 Levels of Parelli are "mucking about" and when you do get to Level 3, you may well find other approaches more appealing.

[Cheeky]

Ok, has anyone here see the video in pack 1?

Parelli say something like this:

We use the 12' foot rope and then we double it to the 22' rope. And then what do we do? That's right we double it again to a 45' rope.:confused:

Now is it just me or is the maths off there?



!!!!!!! I thought I was the only one who noticed that? My sister (younger) was like "Yer .. and your point?"

*Few* not going nuts ..

[Crystal Fire]

We use the 12' foot rope and then we double it to the 22' rope. And then what do we do? That's right we double it again to a 45' rope.

It's a joke...
Tools and gadgets - I don't regret the money spent on a few Parelli bits and bobs because over the years of use they have worked out very cheap. The training I was getting also enabled me to sell lots of rubbish out of my tack room, which more than funded the purchases. It would however have been quite difficult to work through the levels without the Parelli tools. I have heard instructors making sarky remarks to people who had non-PNH gear at clinics (Oh look,she's got a Parsnip Stick). Working at a Parelli centre then you definitely were expected to have the right gear at clinics, to be honest though that really didn't cause me any grief.
Kate, to be honest I don't know if the trainers I like use an understanding of behaviour more effectively. They just seem to be much more straightforward. They don't spend time sitting in a field with a book for hours, or filling in horsenality questions. They would make comments like "He's just being a horse" or "He's scared" or "He needs to move his feet". And then they work with what they have in front of them. Certainly in the case of Steve, Phil's Nye and Rodey there are certain principles that they don't waver from. The most important one is that the horse is never to blame, and always trying to do the right thing.
As for level 3 from day 1... well that is about being absolutely clear that your "ask" will only ever be soft, because that will be your cue for ever onwards. Then if the horse doesn't understand you don't increase that ask, you use something else to explain. I know that this is coming into some of the Parelli training now, but as long as 4 phases are taught I think it's going to be difficult to get people into that way of thinking.
I did level 1, which could be quite lumpy, and your cues could be quite firm. Then in level 2 you have to up the pressure to wake your horse up, say the rules have changed, and get impulsion. Then eventually you get to level 3 where you start to seek the truly soft cues and responsiveness. Well, what I've learnt is that with the right training you can forget the level 1 and 2 stage and go straight to "level 2". Even real novices on my clinics work on softness and tiny cues from day 1.
Parelli costs what it costs. If you don't like it don't do it, there are cheaper (and some would say better) alternatives. If you want to do Parelli look at his Savvy Conferences, his Parelli stands, advertising etc (not to mention the cost of running the ISC) and understand that this puts a huge overhead on the business, which I really think explains some of the cost of the gear. I'm pretty certain that a Parelli agency could work a year and still struggle to recoup the cost of a conference like the one that was held in the UK this year.
I'm not saying Parelli is wrong, I'm saying that these days I prefer a different approach. Parelli was a great start for me and I'll never deny that basic education.

[Kate F.]

If you want to do Parelli look at his Savvy Conferences, his Parelli stands, advertising etc (not to mention the cost of running the ISC) and understand that this puts a huge overhead on the business, which I really think explains some of the cost of the gear. I'm pretty certain that a Parelli agency could work a year and still struggle to recoup the cost of a conference like the one that was held in the UK this year.


I think there's a lot in this! Not directly related, but I thought it was funny and probably very true.... a few years ago I heard Robbie Williams (at the height of his fame and fortune) being asked what it was like to be so rich... and he said nothing really changes - just the numbers get bigger... so instead of a 100.000 pound house you have a million pound house with correspondingly higher bills, instead of one car, you have 5 cars - and 5 times the running costs. When you go overdrawn you do it in millions instead of hundreds or thousands. You never really get away from the worries - there are just more numbers on the bills and the bank statements. I think it's probably much the same for Parelli - the bigger the operation, the more it all costs to run. :D

[india]

The Level 1 and 2 puts in the level of conditioning of the PEOPLE. When you look at it like this - and bear in mind his "so simple even adults can do it" slogan, and the principles of only Level 3 people and over handling young or problem horses, it starts to fall into place.
In general that is principle behind the PNH training theory, the first two levels are mainly about teaching humans how to address the behaviour of their horses, although L2 does begin to cover the reasons behind the behaviour, it doesn't go into it in great detail.

In certain circumstances though, PNH teaches students to addresses the horses behaviour at L3 from day one. This is initially done under instruction and with horses that have serious behaviour issues. In that situation, the behaviour problem is evaluated, most likely reason for it established and the owner given help and advise on addressing the problem.

In some cases, due to the probable cause of the behaviour problem....starting directly onto the L1 programme would not be considered advisable until the issue had been partially addressed.

:)

[mayoguinness]

(Oh look,she's got a Parsnip Stick).
:DNever heard that one before;)

[india]

:DNever heard that one before;)
Neither have I. ;)

:)

[Crystal Fire]

The parsnip stick comment was made by a Parelli instructor to a lady called Lesley that I know at her first clinic. She had constructed her own stick because she was just getting started and it was cheaper. I did hear similar comments about non-PNH gear from time to time. Mind you, sometimes they were justified, when people turned up with horrible floppy halters and lead ropes. I think all of us who decided to study more ended up going to the office and buying the right gear, like all good NH-style tools, it is designed for the purpose. As I say, I never had a problem with the cost of Parelli. It saved me loads because I gave up my conventional weekly lessons and sold lots of tack that I no longer needed.
It would be wrong to discuss detail of costs of running an organisation like Parelli, but I do get frustrated sometimes when their "exorbitant" prices are quoted. Pat has a mission to bring his system to the world, that requires a huge outlay in advertising, demos etc. Think about if you were organising a Savvy Conference... You would have high venue costs, because you need somewhere like the NEC. You have staffing costs. Their accommodation and subsistence. Then you have to fly in Pat, Linda, maybe their business manager, any horses they want to bring... and pay for them to stay somewhere. Then there is the cost of bringing over international instructors and horses... :eek:

[Meovcorz]

Wow, you really took my question in the way it was meant, really I meant it for a conversation, the question wasn't exactly what it sounded like. It is very interesting here all of you talk from your own view.

I saw that 12' 22' 44' (is it 44' or 45') thingy, that was pretty funny (I thought), my friend was watching the video with me one time, and he looked at me like Pat, didn't know how to add! I'd caught it the first time round, and thought it was stupid. Sorry but it is.

Dumn question but, whqat does OP stand for exactly, I know you are refering to me, but I don't get exactly what it stands for.

CF, I didn't get you when you said .... I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes..... . I read it the second time, still didn't get it then third then I got it.

I am not totally for or against Parelli, he has good things to say and bad things. I like some of what he has to say, expensive yes, alot cheaper if you buy straight off his site, just don't buy any of his stuff from Aus - it is so expensive it just isn't funny, like, level 1 $700 from Au, off the site it is $260 or something like that, and the Au dollar is quite strong at the mome.
I am not a stuck on one person kinda person, I might go not BHS for NH, but not one particular person in NH, sorry not me, I like a very wide variety, to see what different people say, what they hold up, I like that.

I really don't know if I am the only one who hates this. I ABSOLUTELY HATE, Pat's use of Savvy, and how much he uses it. (that was the first reason why I don't like it.

Waikato Valuta, I bought some of "parelli's" stuff, except for it was the Roma brand (don't know if you have heard of it, but it is sold in Horseland), it is SOOOO much cheaper than Parelli's stuff.

I have previously done none of Parelli's stuff, know a Bloke who absolutely likes it, well I don't know how much he likes it I know he does use it to some extent, and he loaned me level 1 and level 2. Which is interesting.

More conversation, and opinions would be appreciated, just no fighting. :D:D:D:D HE HE HE HE HE....................

[goeslikestink]

Since this thread is not in the Natural Horsemanship forum ( where I will not go) I assume it is open for all comments good or bad.

I cannot condone a training system that is so closed minded that it disses other training systems soley for the purpose of selling "gagets" at ridiculously high prices to the masses of people that think looking at one of these expensive DVD's makes them into the worlds next super trainer.

I have seen more dangerous antics performed by the 30 minute dvd parelli "instant trainer" than I have ever seen by the average person that has been coached under the usual school situations.

echo-- money for old rope-- and will say most people dont get to level three
as some are already in hospital as do this at home practice
isnt very ideal for the novice or inexpreinced handlers --
but if itworks for you - then fine

[mayoguinness]

The parsnip stick comment was made by a Parelli instructor to a lady called Lesley that I know at her first clinic. She had constructed her own stick because she was just getting started and it was cheaper. I did hear similar comments about non-PNH gear from time to time.

Oh right, lol, just amused me:D

[michelle c]

:pi did everything in level one but the trailer loading, i videoed it and sent it off, for £30 pounds (because i did the ground work first then the ridden) passed everything but the one rein (sp?) stop in canter, they said this was because i didnt stop quick enough or bend good enough, although in my oppinion it was quite good ( pat himself says that it doesnt have to be perfect, just get through it and get to level two?) and she was coughing as she came to the stop, the volume wasnt on but you can clearly see she was coughing and you cant make a horse bend its neck round when it is doing that. so i went on for a few months trying to get the trailer loading thing sorted, did most of level two ground work, then got fed up as we were really strugling with trailer loading and the price of the membership, until a friend suggested clicker training and i have never looked back!!!!

i am still glad i studied parelli and learnt their teachings and encorporate some of them in my clicker training. and best of all MY MARE LEARNS THINGS TWICE AS QUICK AND I DONT HAVE TO GO HIGHER THAN PHASE 1.!!!! :p

[Crystal Fire]

CF, I didn't get you when you said .... I like the end of the heavy metal clips on lead ropes..... . I read it the second time, still didn't get it then third then I got it.
Oh good, don't expect me to be immediately understandable 100% of the time. :D
I saw that 12' 22' 44' (is it 44' or 45') thingy, that was pretty funny (I thought), my friend was watching the video with me one time, and he looked at me like Pat, didn't know how to add! I'd caught it the first time round, and thought it was stupid. Sorry but it is.
It's not a crime to crack a stupid joke, I think most of us do it from time to time. I think if too many of the Parelli-isms get to you then you'll probably get too irritated to study his system.
When buying non-PNH gear just make sure of quality and fit. I have posted in the Natural Horsemanship forum about rope halters, I suggest it might be worth reading. I don't buy Parelli halters these days, they are not the best fit available.

echo-- money for old rope-- and will say most people dont get to level three
as some are already in hospital as do this at home practice I think it's only fair to back up sweeping statements like that with facts. In my experience most people don't go as far as level 3 because they don't need to. I am sure I have spent much more time than you around Parelli students, and I can only think of one who ended up in hospital. That was because she was a bit too brave riding bareback in the lunchbreak on a clinic, when bareback riding wasn't even part of that level of clinic, and her horse was a bit slippy... But she was back with a leg in plaster by the evening! I think people improve things with their horses to the point where they are content by around the end of level 1 or somewhere in level 2, and just don't bother going any further. Most people just want to hack out, maybe compete a bit and have fun with their horses. They may well not be particularly interested in the stuff in level 3. (Work with your horse at liberty in a completely open area? Why bother?).

[mayoguinness]

(Work with your horse at liberty in a completely open area? Why bother?).

Is that Level 3 stuff? Wooo, Me and Mayo could do that part easily enough:D

[horseygal90]

Can someone explain the 12" 22" 45" rope joke to me? I really don't understand.
:o

[wonkeywoody]

(Work with your horse at liberty in a completely open area? Why bother?).

... because it exposes the 'truth' about your relationship with your horse.....

[Crystal Fire]

... because it exposes the 'truth' about your relationship with your horse.....

I know that. ;) I had one horse that took to liberty like a duck to water. And another who was amazing at it, but it took much more work (and a few episodes where he jumped out of an arena) to get him to the same level.
Just to be slightly challenging here... not wishing to sidetrack the thread... I know Pat says that liberty is the truth. What exactly is the truth about the relationship? Is it that your horse runs and "plays" with you in a large open area? Or is it that you have trained your horse to stick with you, and to respond to a set of cues first on-line and then over greater and greater distances at liberty? If your horse was playing with you just because you had a wonderful relationship, then surely none of us would need Parelli or similar to acheive this. I know that when my horse went off to canter round me in 22ft circles, in for a lead change then back out in the opposite direction- he did so because I had taught him to react to a set of consistent cues from my body and my stick and string.
This is sort of what I mean when I say this isn't about playing games.

[india]

Just to be slightly challenging here... not wishing to sidetrack the thread... I know Pat says that liberty is the truth. What exactly is the truth about the relationship? Is it that your horse runs and "plays" with you in a large open area? Or is it that you have trained your horse to stick with you, and to respond to a set of cues first on-line and then over greater and greater distances at liberty?
This is turning into a really interesting thread.:)

Personally, I think it all depends on each horses individual character, some genuinely enjoy human company more so than others and would much prefer to 'hang out' with us than their field buddies.

For instance, my Delboy has always been the type to seek out human company, he'll leave the other horses grazing and make his way to the gate more or less each time a friendly face appears. Liberty work came as 2nd nature to him, the more he learned, the more he enjoyed it...that's just the way he is...he classes all groundwork as playtime!!!

Now Beau's a different story altogether, initially, he had no trust in humans and prefered to be in his own company. Once he'd gained that trust and began to overcome his behaviour problem, he worked through the PNH levels...but, although he completed the tasks, it was always with a lot less enthusiasm than DelBoy did at a later date. Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting that he didn't (doesn't) enjoy liberty work...but he does class it more in line with 'work' than 'play'.

Both are full thoroughbreds with only a couple of years between them, but their characters are entirely different....with Beau it's a case of “Oh, Ok mum... if I must” where as with DelBoy it's “Yipee...bring it on”:D

[mayoguinness]

I know that. ;) I had one horse that took to liberty like a duck to water. And another who was amazing at it, but it took much more work (and a few episodes where he jumped out of an arena) to get him to the same level.
Just to be slightly challenging here... not wishing to sidetrack the thread... I know Pat says that liberty is the truth. What exactly is the truth about the relationship? Is it that your horse runs and "plays" with you in a large open area? Or is it that you have trained your horse to stick with you, and to respond to a set of cues first on-line and then over greater and greater distances at liberty? If your horse was playing with you just because you had a wonderful relationship, then surely none of us would need Parelli or similar to acheive this. I know that when my horse went off to canter round me in 22ft circles, in for a lead change then back out in the opposite direction- he did so because I had taught him to react to a set of consistent cues from my body and my stick and string.
This is sort of what I mean when I say this isn't about playing games.

Hm, yep I agree. I could send Mayo out in a circle at liberty and he'd do it because I'd taught him the cues and wants to please. However when we really play in the true sense of the word as in chase each other about and he bucks etc. (not at me;))but its for the hell of it then I'd say he was being honest, he wants to play and have fun, I've never taught him too, its just developed as our relationship has:)

[Cheeky]

While I have to admit I do not agree with all that Pat says (some of it makes my cheek hurt from biting it ..), I have decided to go ahead and complete a few levels for my own experience. Hope its worth it

[Crystal Fire]

You know what? Since we're all being honest and stating our personal opinions... ;) I'd hate to encourage anyone to rush off and buy Parelli level 1 and get stuck in. At least, not before you have a look at what is involved first-hand and maybe look at some other clinicians and teachers to see what style sits best with you. Starting around April time there will be a variety of really good clinics and demos from the great selection of UK and international instructors who do the rounds each year. Get out and see a few, then decide where to spend your time and money.
Ideally it's good to see these people working with complete beginners, so that you see the process you would be starting on, rather than advancing or finished product.
There are a few people out there who I personally much prefer to Parelli, when I started Parelli I didn't realise there were alternatives, but now I know I'd do things very differently.

[Meovcorz]

Sorry Crystal Fire, I will admit I was being abit cynical there, probably not the wisest thing.

I want to hear all the Instructos that you like better than Parelli, just for interestingnesses (is that a word) sake.

Crystal Fire I read your thread you started on Rope Halters, and it did really shock me. The equipment I bought was all good quality except for the halter (well it was just it doesn't sit in the right place).

Horseygal90, the joke is in the maths, 12 + 12 is 24 not 22, 22 + 22 is 44 not 45.

I like this thread, it is very interesting.

I'd agree that liberty doesn't always mean that it is a true willingnes, well yes in a way, but it is a willingness too cues, not just having fun.

Mayo, it was funny what you said about mayo bucking (not at you) Blue does that so much, he definitelly is a horse with high energy levels, and is absolutely hilarios (sp?) in the rain - he goes absolutely burzucos galloping around his paddock full speed (will have to get you a video of him galloping, he is very fast and extremely beautiful).

[india]

I want to hear all the Instructos that you like better than Parelli, just for interestingnesses (is that a word) sake.
There's some NH trainers I like as much as Parelli, such as Jayne Lavender and Steve Halfpenny. The main reason being, they don't use any ropes with bull clips attached (this is one thing I refused to use when studying PNH).

Personally though, I think all genuine NH training methods can compliment each other, if you take bits and bobs from various trainers you can custom make your training programme to suit the individual horse.

In my opinion they all have something beneficial to offer.

:)

[mayoguinness]

Sorry Crystal Fire, I will admit I was being abit cynical there, probably not the wisest thing.

I want to hear all the Instructos that you like better than Parelli, just for interestingnesses (is that a word) sake.

Crystal Fire I read your thread you started on Rope Halters, and it did really shock me. The equipment I bought was all good quality except for the halter (well it was just it doesn't sit in the right place).

Horseygal90, the joke is in the maths, 12 + 12 is 24 not 22, 22 + 22 is 44 not 45.

I like this thread, it is very interesting.

I'd agree that liberty doesn't always mean that it is a true willingnes, well yes in a way, but it is a willingness too cues, not just having fun.

Mayo, it was funny what you said about mayo bucking (not at you) Blue does that so much, he definitelly is a horse with high energy levels, and is absolutely hilarios (sp?) in the rain - he goes absolutely burzucos galloping around his paddock full speed (will have to get you a video of him galloping, he is very fast and extremely beautiful).

Bless him:D

There's some NH trainers I like as much as Parelli, such as Jayne Lavender and Steve Halfpenny. The main reason being, they don't use any ropes with bull clips attached (this is one thing I refused to use when studying PNH).

Personally though, I think all genuine NH training methods can compliment each other, if you take bits and bobs from various trainers you can custom make your training programme to suit the individual horse.

In my opinion they all have something beneficial to offer.

:)

I'm (just in case everyone doesn't know yet:p) a big fan of Jayne Lavender too, well worth at least watching a few Demos of hers and others to get a good general idea of whats out there;)

[Crystal Fire]

It does depend a bit on what your goals are. Steve Halfpenny is mainly focused on a safe, light and responsive riding horse. Groundwork is used to support that, liberty is thrown in for a bit of fun, but it is an approach that is very much about your riding. I would mention Tom Widdecombe as well, I'll host him again next year. We thought he gave a really strong foundation in ground handling skills, excellent long-lining training, and with the help of his wife Sarah some interesting ridden help. The ridden work however was more traditional english with light contact, whereas Steve teaches less contact and has a western base (although this seems remarkably effective with some very traditional dressage issues and other stuff).
People often get into Parelli because they want to be able to do the more extreme liberty, ride bareback and without a bridle. Sometimes they get there, sometimes they don't stick with the programme long enough. As I said before, one big reason I don't go with Parelli any more is the use of 4 phases, and I'm am also anti bull clips.
Kelly Marks and Monty Roberts works for some, but I think they are sort of borderline NH, and personally too gadget oriented for me.
But this is all very personal opinion, which is why really I'd say get out and have a look at all these people before you spend your dosh.
(p.s. You can sometimes pick up Silversand Basic Skils on video from EBay extremely cheaply. That might be a good introduction, and then spend more money and get out and see the other trainers before going further).

[mayoguinness]

People often get into Parelli because they want to be able to do the more extreme liberty, ride bareback and without a bridle. Sometimes they get there, sometimes they don't stick with the programme long enough. As I said before, one big reason I don't go with Parelli any more is the use of 4 phases, and I'm am also anti bull clips.
.
Me too!
Thats what in the end got to me with the type of NH I was doing before I started having lessons with Jayne. The four phases never sat right with me and if I ever did get to phase four Mayo would give me a good swish with his tale and always seemed to get my face, this carried on to the point where as soon as I'd ask him to yield he'd start swishing his tale:rolleyes: and of course the bull clips, I hated them, If I wiggled the rope to hard it would be banging into the side of his face, no wonder he backed up:o Never use them for playing and training now!

[india]

I haven't got a problem with the four phases, maybe this is because I've never used ropes with bull clips attached. On the odd occasion that I've had to 'go there' (phase four), it's caused my horses nothing more than an irritating discomfort......BIG difference to when the phases are used with bull clips attached to the rope which bang against the underside of the horses face.....not very pleasant for the horse - to say the least.

[Meovcorz]

SOOO.......... if you don't use topes with bull clips on then end of them, then what do you use on the end of your ropes?

[mayoguinness]

Rope!lol.:D Its just a lope at the tope which you atatch the halter onto:)

[india]

SOOO.......... if you don't use topes with bull clips on then end of them, then what do you use on the end of your ropes?
I always used a 12' rope with a very lightweight clip on it rather than a PNH type that had a heavy duty bull clip attached.....these where to harsh for my liking.

;)

[Waikato Valuta]

Some ropes come with just a loop on the end. No clip or attachment.

[Meovcorz]

Oh yeah, that sounds better, I was just trying to work out how on earth you would do it. (Sorry for being so dumn). Well I haven't seen any of that style yet.

[michelle c]

in one way i dont like the way the bull clip because it is heavy and can hit the horse but it also is a safety clip so if your horse is tied up and pannics or gets cought some how you can let it loose by the clip!!!! :)

how would you then go on with a leadrope with just the loop? keep a knife with you to cut it if something should happen? :confused:

[Crystal Fire]

That's what most (if not all?) Parelli instructors do. They might also tie to solid objects, because they work on the principle that their horses have been taught to yield to pressure rather than fight it.
Personally I tie up to a bit of frayed twine, just as I do with any lead rope.

[mayoguinness]

in one way i dont like the way the bull clip because it is heavy and can hit the horse but it also is a safety clip so if your horse is tied up and pannics or gets cought some how you can let it loose by the clip!!!! :)

how would you then go on with a leadrope with just the loop? keep a knife with you to cut it if something should happen? :confused:

If you do a quick release knot when you tie, surely its easier just to release the knot then get to the horses head to undo the clip;) thats what I've always done. Mayo did rear when tied with a bull clip rope (load noise) and I couldn't get to him to undo the clip and because I hadn't tied a quick relase knot (even though he was tied to bailing twine:rolleyes:) the bull clip just snapped clean fortuanitly but other times this hasn't happened and theres no way I could get to the horses head so I think as long as you always tie them properly it doesn't make a lot of difference.

[Meovcorz]

Interesting, I agree, the quick release knot sounds like an excellent idea.

[Lili & Morgan]

[QUOTE=michelle c;1480626but it also is a safety clip so if your horse is tied up and pannics or gets cought some how you can let it loose by the clip!!!! :) [/QUOTE]

AAAAAAAAH???? how does it work ?

One thing I do not get. The main critics about the Parelli system are the 4 phases ... but as the system is based on training the HUMAN, it is the HUMAN'S FAULT that uses too much phases 4

It is down to the HUMAN to time, to choose the intensity of a phase 4.

From my Parelli materials, it is precised that phase 4 should happen in the first level only. If you look at the evaluation of the exam :
http://www.parelli.com/content.faces?groupType=INSTRUCTORS
On the left, it is written that to pass the exam the horse should respond to phase 1 or 2 in decontracted manner "non displaced behaviour".

Maybe India and CF can explain to me. As they have done lots of courses.

I so far work with my "new" level 1 pack and waiting to have an instructor to come.


Why a Parelli intsructor? because the prices with the others NH instructors are similar. But the Parelli instructor is part of a BIG organisation, I can give some feedback about his work. So I am paying for some safety and guarantee of work quality ...

[india]

One thing I do not get. The main critics about the Parelli system are the 4 phases ... but as the system is based on training the HUMAN, it is the HUMAN'S FAULT that uses too much phases 4

It is down to the HUMAN to time, to choose the intensity of a phase 4.

From my Parelli materials, it is precised that phase 4 should happen in the first level only. If you look at the evaluation of the exam :
http://www.parelli.com/content.faces?groupType=INSTRUCTORS
On the left, it is written that to pass the exam the horse should respond to phase 1 or 2 in decontracted manner "non displaced behaviour"....
I agree, PNH does mainly consist of teaching the human, part of that teaching is learning when and how to go through the phases...if done correctly you end up with a happy, calm and responsive horse...done incorrectly you could end up with a wreck!!

In L1 you go through the phases slowly, allowing approximately three seconds for each phase...this is to give your horse time to think and respond. Although, if done correctly, it's very rare that phase four is needed more than a couple of times...but you must be prepared to go there. When your ready for the L1 assessment, your horse should be responding to phases one and two and possibly you may have to use three....but by this time phase four shouldn't have to be used more than once or you'd fail the assessment.

Now where L1 concentrated on your horse overcoming opposition reflexes, L2 teaches your horse to have positive reflexes which is achieved by speeding the phases up. L1 consisted of each one lasting approximately three seconds, where as L2 stays longer on phase one but speeds through the other phases....so initially, phase four would probably also be used a couple of times by most students in this level. Although, like in L1, by the time your ready for the assessment, your horse should be responding to phases one and two...and possibly three....but by this stage, the need to go to phase four shouldn't exist.

Is that any help? :)

[michelle c]

i do use quick release knots when tying my horse up, so maybe that was a bad example!!! :o

so what happenes if your horse some how gets tangled in the rope or the rope accidently gets cought on something?

[mayoguinness]

i do use quick release knots when tying my horse up, so maybe that was a bad example!!! :o

so what happenes if your horse some how gets tangled in the rope or the rope accidently gets cought on something?

Well hopefully Mayo wouldn't be to bad, I've done a lot of work with ropes around his legs and if he does things like step on his own rope and can't move instead of going mad like he used to he'll step back till he's free. Can't really see how else he'd get rapped up in the rope when its atatched to his halter . . . .

[jUmPingIsLifE]

Unless you have a break away halter I dont think ANY halter is safe. Even clips, you would have to get close enough to the panicing horse and then try to unclip the clip with the rope pulled tight. It really would be quite impossible. I dont know what a bull clip really looks like (our rope halters dont have any sort of clip, its all rope) but Regular lead ropes you would have to turn the clip because the open part is located on the side.

[Meovcorz]

Jumpingislife, it's not the rope halters which have the bull clips on it's the lead ropes, but (I think) that the bull clips are pulled out and can be hard to open.(Is that a bull clip CF and Mayo?)

[Lili & Morgan]

Is that any help? :)

Yes thanks.

I am taking the Parelli route because after "squashing one of my vertebra by being bucked off" I have lost all my self-confidence in me and in my mare ( but it was not her that bucked me off) ... she is also a challenging mare, we have already been "throught" 2 trainers ... Both trainers lunged her for 30 to 40 minutes before riding.

I want to find another way!

[india]

Yes thanks.

I am taking the Parelli route because after "squashing one of my vertebra by being bucked off" I have lost all my self-confidence in me and in my mare ( but it was not her that bucked me off) ... she is also a challenging mare, we have already been "throught" 2 trainers ... Both trainers lunged her for 30 to 40 minutes before riding.

I want to find another way!
Our experiences are very similar....

My Beau used to be an habitual bucker and caused me to lose my self-confidence...(it's a long way down and painful being catapulted off a 16.2hh thoroughbred) :eek:....but unlike you, I was never badly injured.

I wanted to help him overcome his problem without the use of any gadgets and after contacting various NH trainers....decided that PNH was definitely the road to go down. Within a couple of weeks of restarting him (with the help of a PNH 3* instructor), there where noticeable signs of improvement in not only his behaviour but also with my self confidence.

It was a long road to travel down.....but for us, the journey was well worth it.

Personally, I think you've made a wise choice...

:)

[mayoguinness]

Jumpingislife, it's not the rope halters which have the bull clips on it's the lead ropes, but (I think) that the bull clips are pulled out and can be hard to open.(Is that a bull clip CF and Mayo?)

Thay are harder to unclip then the ones on the traditional lead ropes and a lot more chuncky, you have to twist and pull.

[Spoof]

I am taking the Parelli route because after "squashing one of my vertebra by being bucked off" I have lost all my self-confidence in me and in my mare ( but it was not her that bucked me off) ...

Me too. I fell through some wood under a road on a horse, ended up in the hospital. Nothing on the horses or my part, but I'm horribly terrified now when it comes to jumping(??) or sudden movement.

I decided to give Parelli a go since my friend has the stuff. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I had a bad experience at the clinic last weekend. The instructor definitely earned his pay though - he had some extremely difficult, nasty horses.

I've worked through level one, two and three groundwork, but due to the extreme trauma with this horse and his fear of saddles and people being on him, we haven't progressed under saddle. Can't get him to reliably do 21 minutes of passenger because he goes into a panic. What was that answer? More groundwork? Ugh. ~sigh.

On the other hand, I've taken two other horses through level two riding & groundwork during the time I've had this one. Soo... not sure where to go next.

[wonkeywoody]

Hi Spoof,
Sounds like he (the 1 your having probs with) has been really micro managed and is lacking in self confidence. You may need to break down the riding/passenger etc into REALLY small chunks for him ie 1 min, 2 mins etc etc, dont forget LOADS of 'friendly rubbing' to encourage his confidence. Keep up the ground work too.

[Crystal Fire]

Spoof - have you taken this horse right back and re-started him in an "NH" fashion?

[Spoof]

Yes.

Actually, I received him as a (supposedly) unbroke 5 year old. He didn't lead, had never been vetted or had his feet trimmed.

So he got the NH stuff the day I met him, and for the two weeks until I loaded him into a trailer and took him home... then every day after that. He was great, got over his rearing/head touching issues fairly quickly, and really came along.

When I got him home he attacked my saddle sitting on the rail, so I called the previous owner and asked about saddles.

I discovered he had been sent for 30 days as a 3 year old, they didn't mention it as they thought he'd forgotten everything. The trainer is an old-style buckaroo that uses tie-downs. Ie, they rode him till he quit fighting, and used a tie-down to keep him from throwing himself. Oi! The owner said he came back skin and bones, but got better after a few months of feeding.

Boy, what a mess I got, he sure didn't forget that part!

Now he accepts everything calmly, but sitting there with no guidance sends him into a panic. If I actively ride him and keep his mind engaged he is ok.

This was the help I went to the clinic for. I really want to pass the level one, so I can do level two clinics (frustrating!). The only advise I got was to do more groundwork. Our groundwork is so good we can do just about anything at liberty in a 1 acre pasture. There is a point where groundwork isn't going to fix something and this is it.

Today one of the H/J trainers suggested that maybe he isn't ready for the 'liberty' under saddle, and I should work him (patterns), since he is confident with work, then go back. Certainly won't hurt to try. :)

[moniek]

hello
i went to america and had my lessons/ training with pat.
i am a level 3 trainer and want to go to get my level 4 next year.
if you want to know more you can ask me and i wil be happy to answer them.

regards moniek

[Crystal Fire]

Bit of a tricky one there then Spoof. Did you do all of the bareback backing stuff, sliding over the back, kneeling up, over the bum etc? It sounds as if his issue is with the saddle, rather than the rider, but the basics of young horse starting should check this out good and proper.
I'm wondering if maybe you could do with some concentrated help from an NH professional (maybe Parelli, maybe not). This is the sort of thing where it could be quite dangerous to advise you on the Net, I think that anyone trying to help you should see the situation first-hand.
Hi Moniek - are you a Parelli professional?

[Meovcorz]

Spoof, I can Kinda understand you there (though I do not have anywhere the amount of experience you have). Blue is a very spooky horse, loves ground work and HATES Saddle work, well there is abit of an oxy moron there, he love saddle work if he is being engaged and has something to think about and has a rider he absolutely trusts. So we are going through a bit at the mome. Like CF said, It is quite a dangerous thing to say, you should do this or that, because we do not know your horse, or the whole situation, like I like to say, walk a mile in someone shoes before you say do this or that. Which I am not good at, I admit.

[moniek]

Bit of a tricky one there then Spoof. Did you do all of the bareback backing stuff, sliding over the back, kneeling up, over the bum etc? It sounds as if his issue is with the saddle, rather than the rider, but the basics of young horse starting should check this out good and proper.
I'm wondering if maybe you could do with some concentrated help from an NH professional (maybe Parelli, maybe not). This is the sort of thing where it could be quite dangerous to advise you on the Net, I think that anyone trying to help you should see the situation first-hand.
Hi Moniek - are you a Parelli professional?

hello
yes i am i have got my instructor papers as wel and i am a qualifeit 3th level.
i want to go back next year to go for my 4th level.
i did not only train with pat but with some of the best reining riders in the world i learn a lot from them.
I use everything together.
for any help you can contact me
i just moved 6 months ago from holland to scotland (20 min from edinburgh)
regards moniek

[Crystal Fire]

Congratulations Moniek - some of us know what a tough path you've travelled to become one of Pat's instructors!
I'm thinking Spoof that I might be working on gradually increasing your horse's periods of standing still and doing nothing, but making sure to start moving and working him while he is relaxed standing still, not when he starts to get tense. I'd also want to make sure he has been thoroughly re-started, not knowing you I don't know how much of the process you know, as Parelli won't normally share that with students who haven't passed level 3. Again I would recommend you get some experienced help because it is so easy to reinforce the very behaviour you are trying to change, and I think this is a situation where that would be very easy.

[Spoof]

Good job Moniek!

I think that anyone trying to help you should see the situation first-hand.

I am going to ask the level three graduate here to watch us, see if she has any suggestions or I need to ask a trainer when they come back in the fall. :)

[Crystal Fire]

Good plan Spoof. Just bear in mind that a Level 3 graduate can be a very different person to an accredited Parelli professional in terms of experience. You don't have to work with many horses to pass level 3, but you certainly do to be an instructor, young horse starter or problem horse specialist.

[Spoof]

I know, right now she is the only option. We don't have any trainers in this state.

[Crystal Fire]

What I mean is, if you're happy with what she does then it's great, if you feel uneasy at all don't be afraid to trust your own experience and knowledge of your horse. :)
I think a real back to basics re-start might help you a lot.

[Spoof]

Should probably have started a new thread, but today went great!

We started off with the ground stuff, he was spot on. Graduated to the riding, I rode for a few minutes, showed her the techniques I was using.

She got on and ended up in a two hour long session with him. It was great for both of us, I could see that he was pulling the same things on her, and how she was handling it. In the end he was not only relaxed but shook too!

Of course, there were several times he threw some nasty things her way, and we never did get a relaxed walk all the way down the side rail. Otherwise, we think we've got a good idea of what is going on.

It is very clear that he was trained with a very short tie-down by the way he resists yielding when he gets worried. (I have photos and a video of this I might post later). It is also very clear that he remembers a lot of what happened in the 30 days he was gone at 3. He'll walk calmly for five minutes, then expects to be made to go faster. When you break this cycle he gets worried, bracey and tries to go even faster in more of a fear response. Then, he gets comfortable and challenges you for speed and/or direction. (This is really interesting to watch, and more so to ride.)

We decided that if I was short on time I should break it down into steps, ie, walk 5 steps, stop, relax, eat, sidepass, backup, whatever, just don't allow him the opportunity to take the initiative to control speed or direction. If I have a couple hours, to go ahead and do the follow the rail, and when he speeds up to take of lift the rein and try to get a gait change.

That is what she did for two hours. He has an interesting emotional cycle, he can cycle through all four horsinalities on any given task, sometimes multiple times. Definitely saw this in the riding, it is very entertaining as a spectator, and a darn hard challenge as the person doing it!

[Meovcorz]

Sounds like all went well. Would love updates of further happenings.

[janet hakeney]

hello
yes i am i have got my instructor papers as wel and i am a qualifeit 3th level.
i want to go back next year to go for my 4th level....for any help you can contact me. i just moved 6 months ago from holland to scotland (20 min from edinburgh) regards moniek

What is your real name Moniek? There is no-one on the official Parelli Instructors list registered in Holland with that name, and you are not on the UK list yet? if you are a 3 STAR Instructor you should be listed on the official site somewhere?

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

this section of NR is really eye-opening to me. b4 i joined the NR forum, i'd never heared of Parelli. & yet on here, there's tonnes of people who 'study' it. & now i am to become a student! (unofficially)

[~Perdita.M~]

Any recommendations on a rope with a little clip? :confused:

[inhs]

lodge ropes are great. www.lodgeropes.com just saw you want a clipless 12 foot rope.

[inhs]

I've passed L2 QNH www.querenslandnaturalhorsemaship.com (not quite parelli) but a descendant............ more on lines of steve halfpenny who crystal fire mentioned... L3 looms in a year or two, bringing on my youngster at the minute :)