what to use instead of a kimblewick?

[laceyfreckle]

My mare at teh moment is ridden in a kimblewick as she can be strong and seems to prefer that type of mouthpiece (straight with a port) when she was driven she used to go in a liverpool ported bit and liked that too. Prob is i don't particularly like how the kimblewick sits on her (hook for curb chain always seems to look like it might dig in if she moved suddenly?) her kimblewick isn't the slotted type, the reins go straight on the D ring shaped rings. sometimes the reins can move round to the 'wrong place' (round the front) and i don't like that either. Most importantly i can't taker her to any local shows or dressage shows in a kimblewick. Apart from sometimes being a tiny bit strong i can't fault her oh apart from sometimes she does try to get her toungue over the bit but not to a point where she needs a flash. She has her teeth checked every 6 months

so i am looking for a alternative. Would a cambridge snaffle be ok? How does it work? Is it similar to action to the kimblewick even without a curb chain? are the loose rings likely to pinch? or should i be looking at something else?

We have tried her before in a
Happymouth Loose Ring Snaffle when i first got her...worked well but she didn't like the 'snaffle' action and successfullt managed to 'tank' with me a few times when bored/excited:o

[carthorse]

Dressage wise you've got a problem because ported bits aren't allowed. Does she like this type of mouthpiece because it gives her more tongue room? If so then you could try a thin mullen mouth (look for one with a generous curve to it) or a thin french link, though she may not be so keen on the second as it doesn't give such a still definate feel.

For day to day hacking could you just put her back in the driving bit & be very light with your hands? At least you know she likes that. Or maybe look at a pelham with a similar mouthpiece or a slotted kimblewick.

I don't know what a cambridge snaffle is, off to google it now :)

[carthorse]

Found it! It looks the same as a magic bit to me.

It won't be dressage legal I'm afraid. Whether it will be strong enough for you to hack safely I don't know, my guess is that if she's strong in a kimblewick then this won't give you enough control if she gets excited or you get in a difficult situation.

I noticed you said you can't go to local shows in the kimblewick. What classes are you doing? Usually it's only dressage that's really strict on bitting - a few showing classes have restrictions but unless it's something like a child's riding pony you can often use a pelham.

[titch_]

what about a straght bar happy mouth?

[Bobbin]

I have exactly the same issues with Bryony. I tried the hanging bauchers and the loose rings and the french links and she would just chuck her head in the air. Bry is ridden in a slotted kimblewick and she loves it. So initially after I tried all the other snaffles I bought a straight bar loose ring rubber bit. Instantly felt more relaxed in it. I strapped her gob shut. Rode her and competed her in that this season (well the bits she was sound for) but felt that I needed the independant action of a jointed bit. I took a chance and bought a Myler comfort snaffle and she seems to have accepted it quite well. It has a joint but a very mild almost hidden joint that doesn't really pinch.

[laceyfreckle]

Found it! It looks the same as a magic bit to me.

It won't be dressage legal I'm afraid. Whether it will be strong enough for you to hack safely I don't know, my guess is that if she's strong in a kimblewick then this won't give you enough control if she gets excited or you get in a difficult situation.

I noticed you said you can't go to local shows in the kimblewick. What classes are you doing? Usually it's only dressage that's really strict on bitting - a few showing classes have restrictions but unless it's something like a child's riding pony you can often use a pelham.

aaah yes should have said 'cambridge snaffle' is the proper name for the magic bit. I always thought it was dressage legal though (very very very low level) as its a snaffle?

The showing classes i would want her to do would be M&M classes, Veteran classes and possibly first ridden/LR classes (not with me;) she's 12.2hh) Wouldn't she get marked down for only being a little pony in a bit that isn't a eggbutt:rolleyes:?

She isn't strong int he kimblewick but is strong in anything but.

Yes i do think she likes the extra toungue room as she has quite a large fleshy toungue. That si some of the reason i am a bit loathed to try her in a straight bar or mullen mouth as they won't offer her any toungue relief/room. She hates the nutctacker of a normal single jointed snaffle and i'm not sure a french link would offer enough in terms of brakes?

Hackign wise yes i could just get her a slotted kimblewick (are they any different in action to a normal kimblewick?) or a pelham? (not sure how they work in terms of action and strength and mouthpiece.

I would love to try a myler but they are probably a bit out of my price range, and most i believe arn't dressage/show legal?

[carthorse]

Nope, it has a port so for some reason BD don't class it as a proper snaffle & it's illegal - silly rule but that's how it is :rolleyes:. Almost all dressageis run under BD rules, even local RC unaffiliated stuff.

FOr larger breed MM classes a pelham is acceptable, for smaller breeds I really dont know. I think the Cambridge snaffle is very popular in showing though because it gives little kids a bit more control while still having the outwards appearance if a snaffle, plus I can't imagine the judges checking! LIkewise I would guess it's fine for LR & first ridden.

A thin mullen mouth should give her some tongue room, certainly more than a straight bar.

[laceyfreckle]

aaah so maybe a cambridge snaffle for some showing and poss hacking if enough breaks (if not thinking slotted kimblewick/pelham), a mullen mouth for dressage? How much control/precision does a mullen mouth have? I can't say i know much about mullen mouth bits?

god what happened tot he days where your horse only had two bridles...one a everyday bit and the second a double bridle?

[jaydevon]

www.shop4bits.co.uk you can hire any of the bits for 30 days,

the slotted kimblewick is a sharp bit, on the slot nearer to the curb it gives a huge amount of curb action, on the lower slot you get more poll pressure

a pelham is pretty much like a kimblewwick if used with roundings,

if you horse is fussy in the mouth id suggest trying some bits from the happy mouth range, or some thing that is double jointed and made from something other than normal metals, ie french links, lonzengers ect, most of these simple bits are allowed in showing/dressage.

[ponylover88]

...

[jaydevon]

waterfords are not dressage legal as they are one of the most harsh bits on the market!

and from having a horse that has a large tounge and is strong but sensitive in the mouth, the happy mouths have worked wonders with him. he prefures a port, but is to strong for the magic bit.

to be honest id suggest trying bits until the right one was found.... it took me 4 months and a lot of money to find the right one for my horse

[carthorse]

aaah so maybe a cambridge snaffle for some showing and poss hacking if enough breaks (if not thinking slotted kimblewick/pelham), a mullen mouth for dressage? How much control/precision does a mullen mouth have? I can't say i know much about mullen mouth bits?

god what happened tot he days where your horse only had two bridles...one a everyday bit and the second a double bridle?

That's what I'd do to begin with.

A mullen mouth has a fair amount of control & a very direct action so it's pretty clear to the horse what you want. I've got a Myler mullen mouth that Jim loves (he's very fussy about his mouth - hates a single joint, doesn't settle in a double joint, I lack control in Nathe while happy mouth give him a sore mouth & I've no control :rolleyes:) yet still gives me enough control for flat work & jumping, though I hack in a pelham. The trick is finding one the right thickness & curve - I love my Myler one but they aren't cheap although you coud keep an eye open on e-bay.

Life used to be so simple didn't it? Though I do wonder how many horses were written off with problems that nowadays would be solved, not to mention the ones that just soldiered on but weren't happy in their work.

Sadly I think Jaydevon is right, you may just have to play around until you find the right one. To begin with try borrowing from friends, it's cheaper!

[ponylover88]

...

[Sam (aka SLW)]

waterfords are not dressage legal as they are one of the most harsh bits on the market!


Absolutely not!! A bit is only as harsh as the hands of the rider and there are plenty of harsher bits than the waterford.

[jaydevon]

if you were to do some research in to waterfords you would discover their harshness, and the reasons why, it is not MY personal view. They are designed for strong horses that lean on the bit. not necessarily a horse that pulls.

im sorry but i dont think a happy mouth snaffle can be called harsh!

at the end of the day we are putting things into ours mouths that is not natural for them.... i would object aswell! BUT a horse that may go in a snaffle for one person may not accept it with another person. 9/10 times this is due to the rider not the horse, hence why testing out lots of bits, the idea being to find one that horse and rider can work together in.

sam.. i agree even a rubber snaffle in the wrong hands is harsh, it is because of the function of the waterford that it is not allowed.

[jaydevon]

Not when your horse doesnt like anything else particularly.
Mine is so much softer in hers, i dont see how everyone claims theyre so harsh as theyre just jointed, just with 3 lozenges rather than the single plate that a french link has.
My girl has a low palate and a big tongue, she likes it as it can sit where its most comfortable, around her tongue without interfereing with the rest of her mouth.

The harshest bit ive used as far as im concerned was my happy mouth snaffle on her, purely as it didnt suit her - her head was vertical in the air, and she couldnt shut her mouth. It was way too big for her.


a waterford is made up of 5 links plus?????

[Sam (aka SLW)]

9/10 times this is due to the rider not the horse, hence why testing out lots of bits, the idea being to find one that horse and rider can work together in.
.

Totally agree, but IMO a waterford is not harsh, if used correctly and in experienced hands.
I am a fan of bitless anyday. Why stick a chunk of metal in a horses mouth when there is a good, decent range of bitless bridles:D

[ponylover88]

...

[Sam (aka SLW)]

Its different for every horse,



Exactly

[jaydevon]

im sorry but i do not agree that a happy mouth as a) a harsh bit and b) a chunky bit, ive have not suggested at any point you should change your bit.

I Tink we maybe calling the links on the bits different things,

i do belive that your orignaL comment came from my saying they were harsh hense why not allowed in dressage, the following is taken from http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php

The waterford bit, which is made up of 5-9 linked pieces which act as a chain in the mouth. For those riders used to sawing the bit to and fro in the mouth of the horse, this is probably a blessing, since it runs so smoothly, and still causes so much discomfort that the horse will yield. This knobbled and bumpy bit has so many joints that it will easily wrap around the lower jaw of the horse but give him nothing to stretch forward to. It's simply not for dressage.


no affence this tread was about someone else wanting advice, so lets not not take over the tread and go back to the original posters questions, as with everything in the horse world.... everyone has different opinions.

[laceyfreckle]

lol hasn't this thread deviated lol:)

For the record i have no experience of Waterfords but am really looking for a dressage/show legal bit as well as a hacking bit. (i think hacking bit wise maybe a pelham or slotted kimblewick if she doesn't go well in the magic bit which i have ordered to try first.

Anyone know how a magic bit/cambridge snaffle works?

I too am reluctant to try a happy mouth as she doesn't like them and they do seem a bit chunky in her mouth when it comes to leaving enough room for her tongue. Also the prob is she doesn't like jointed bits and i'm unsure a mullen would leave her enough toungue room?

might have to try a mullen for dressage though.

can anyone tell me why ported bits such as the magic bit/cambridge snaffle arn't allowed in dressage?

[jaydevon]

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/ there is a ported bit on this site that is dressage legal, i dont think that the magic bit is.

http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Cambridge-Mouth-Loose-Ring-magic-bit--Cambridge-Mouth-Loose-Ring.html

gives you a bit (haha) more info

[jaydevon]

https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/uploads/File/Rules%202008/BD_Rulebook%202008%202.pdf

2008 rules, a few pages down is the part about bits

[ponylover88]

...

[jaydevon]

Sustainable dressage is one very opinionated site. Were both welcome to our own opinions, you think every horse should be in a happy mouth, i think that horses should be in bits that suits them.
End of.

DO NOT suggest things that are not true, i have not at any point said every horse should be in a happy mouth WHAT I HAVE SAID to laceyfreckle is the best advice i could give is to try lots of bits until she finds one that both her and her horse like.

please in future read what has been put, and respond in a consructive way

[dunrobin_topper]

This thread is Very interesting! I have been through several bits in the past couple of years some success some not so but here goes (i trialed a few just to see what happened!) I have a very strong welsh cob x who we are reschooling slowly and introducing back to jumping.

After riding in a baucher eggbutt snaffle - was very good but we were reschooling and he was resisting a great deal, very very strong when hacking!! No brakes in an emergency so we had to rethink our hacking arrangements.

After much discussion and checks (teeth/back etc) tried a metal mullen mouth pelham with chain - much lighter to ride and responsive but i felt this was a bit (just the mouth piece of the bit) too harsh for his mouth so we switched to a rubber mullen mouth pelham - with schooling we have our breaks back and in emergencies! Changed the chain to an elastic one but he just didnt like the feel for jumping so again a rethink!

He was beginning to get fitter and a bit full of himself and starting to lean on the bit. after checking that my hands were not the problem being to rigid etc and that i was being light and using my seat etc discovered the bit was just too think for his mouth. I also think the curb effect just was a bit too much for him, as an experiment we took the chain off and the curb rein away and he was much happier!

BTW another owner let me use their waterford for about a week...the leaning stopped straight away but i just didnt like the feel of it, we did have a bit more control but i dont like the feeling of him just obeying me i wanted him to listen and understand me clearly and although we jumped him in this bit and for a little bit more control when hacking i would not school him in it!!

So to finish i now have a Pee Wee bit on Hire and i think he is a happier boy! The first time i tried the bit i felt like it was too skinny and would hurt his mouth but no he seems to like it (not that i know how he feels but his ears dont pin back when i pick up a contact!) I can easily convey what i mean and i feel him getting bouncier and rounder and my friend said he looked and felt much lighter too! Its good in that it has a curb but you dont have to use it at all unless you change the position of your reins. I have experimented with it on all the settings and yes we havent tried out the brakes yet but i had alot more feel for his mouth and control when we went for a hack through some woods and he was a bit edgy!!

Im not bothered that this bit isnt dressage legal but if he is happy to be schooled/hacked and jump (he jumps super in it!) then im happy and i can always try and find a thinner mullen mouth bit for shows. Dont know what bit but hey ive got time! and shopfor bits! lol:rolleyes:

[laceyfreckle]

hi thanks everyone for the comments and sites posted. I think i am going to find it hard to find a dressage legal bit as i know Lacey doesn't particularly like any jointed bit, and after reading about the mullen mouth i'm not sure i could find one that wouldn't take up too much room/give enough toungue room (as she has a very big toungue) without being too sharp because of the narrowness.)

I like the look of a hanging cheek if i could find one with a ported mouthpiece? I have ordered a magic bit first and will try that first as it looks similar to a kimblewick without a curb chain (she is fine with the curb only loosly attached.)

[jaydevon]

it is simular.... the only thing i dont like about them is they have very small rings, but i out the old fashion rubber things on just to be safe that it didnt go through the mouth!

have you thought about/tried a straight bar snaffle?