WOAW oh My! WOAW .. First NH lesson

[Lili & Morgan]

For years I have been reading watching any DVDs available on NH, from John Lyons to Parelli via Mark Rashid.

I own a "difficult" mare, I prefer to say challenging. We have been throught 2 trainers already .. sigh
Both trainers lunged her for 30 to 40 minutes for getting her ready-to-ride .. sigh

I stopped working with any trainers, and sure enough my mare made me understood how incompetent I was.

I had the feeling NH training was our answer. View my resouces in Italy I went for a Parelli instructor, I contacted the nearest one from the Internet Parelli Directory.
Note : If I had been so lucky to live in the UK, I would have gone to somebody else. I think sometimes, the Brits do not realisize how spoilt they are regarding trainers availability ... :rolleyes:

There are others NH trainers, but they seem to work alone without much of a structure.

Well the result was amazing. For a start my mare was described as indifferent, then smart and very playfull.
You do need to get her attention, but then she is all nice.

WHAT a difference from the previous : "naughty-dangerous-difficult-dominant "description by others trainers ...

We had fun! Because it was a one-to-one lesson, we blasted throught the games, my mare only needed to be shown once.
It was super!!!
and I DID IT!!!!
She finished her session so relaxed, with such a soft look in her eyes, and she was looking at me!!! She barely sweated, only a wet patch on her girth passage but she has her winter coat on.
It is important for me. Because the only other time I saw her so relaxed, it was because she was trained HARD for 1h30 and she was drenched in sweat.

I am confident I have found a way to get to her brain instead of exhausting her physically :D :cool:

Note : I read a lot, I have some groundwork experience, but with a challenging horse, it is MUCH better to work with a Pro. You get a better result with less stress to your horse and yourself.
It is the limitation of Parelli Home Program ... You need to work with a trainer, or to do a clinic at one point to get more forward.

[inhs]

Well done, thats fab :) It is so much easier with an instructor with you alright :) it is lovely to realise that you can work with your horse, and have fun together, and I know sometimes its not easy :) :D :D WELL DONE!!

[Crystal Fire]

Yes, great news and good for you for sticking with your horse and looking for the solution! :)

[laura jeanne]

There is a section in Michael Schaffer's book Right From the Start that talks about how when a horse is learning something, they will "play" with the idea. Like a child learning to do something and experiment with it in all different ways. Some people would see this and label the horse as difficult or naughty (since he knows what he is supposed to be doing) but he is really just "playing" with the new skill.

So if your trainer has spotted this in her, no wonder that she changed her attitude - maybe she was happy that she was being understood. (says the person with no horse training whatsoever!!) lol

[Spoof]

Wow, good job on finding an answer that left both of you happy! Sounds like you are definitely on the right track for you and your horse! :)

[Lili & Morgan]

good for you for sticking with your horse and looking for the solution! :)

Well at times it is not easy. I stare at her thinking "OMG why am I keeping you?"
But she is very bound to me, she is a lovely good-natured mare under her cheekiness. I also feel responsible towards her training. IF I had to sell her, I woudl like to sell a very well-trained, good mannered horse! So I cannot give up now!

Today did not went as good as yesterday we have the YO-YO okay, but she went over-enthusiastic with the circling game, slid and fell :eek:
I really shall control her feet better, and make her more side-passing and backing ....

Yesterday, It was very nice to hear a horse-trainer telling me that my horse was smart and playfull and NOT "that nasty, scary, piece of ****" that others trainers thought of my mare ....

[mayoguinness]

Well at times it is not easy. I stare at her thinking "OMG why am I keeping you?"
But she is very bound to me, she is a lovely good-natured mare under her cheekiness. I also feel responsible towards her training. IF I had to sell her, I woudl like to sell a very well-trained, good mannered horse! So I cannot give up now!

Today did not went as good as yesterday we have the YO-YO okay, but she went over-enthusiastic with the circling game, slid and fell :eek:
I really shall control her feet better, and make her more side-passing and backing ....

Yesterday, It was very nice to hear a horse-trainer telling me that my horse was smart and playfull and NOT "that nasty, scary, piece of ****" that others trainers thought of my mare ....

I'm glad you got on so well with the lesson, you will have good and bad days still though depending on your mood and her mood and all you can do is realise that:)and if anyone calls any horse a "that nasty, scary, piece of ****" they really haven't got a clue;)

[Crystal Fire]

Lili, you are doing great!
A couple of thoughts for you while working on a circle. You could watch her moving and get yourself mentally in time with her feet. Then, if she is starting to rush a little, watch for her inside hind just starting to leave the ground and at that moment just raise your arm holding the rope and turn your wrist so that your fingernails are upwards this will have the effect of stepping her hind end away just one step, and slowing her a bit, it will bring her attention back. It will probably help if you take a step towards her hind end as you do it, and you could also drop your INSIDE* shoulder. This is not a heavy focus on the hind end as you might be taught to disengage it, it is a soft aid to step the inside hind under, followed by a relax and forward feel so that she keeps going.
When you start to work on things like sideways off a circle, and even disengaging her to bring her round to face you, if you think about being in time with the feet, and asking when the appropriate foot is leaving the ground, you will make it much easier for her to respond because her weight will be balanced in the right way to make it easy for her to lift herself and move.
Sometimes when people are having problems with yeilding the forehand I suggest that they start to learn the movement by first asking the horse to step back (with softness and a nice shape in the neck), then give the "ask" to move the nearside front leg over just as it is leaving the ground. I think that's a really good exercise.
All of this sort of stuff puts you in time with the movement of your horse and helps them to move lightly and easily. If you ask at the wrong time then their weight will be on the wrong leg and loaded against the movement. Later, this all builds into light and easy ridden work. For example if your horse is feeling heavy on the forehand and you can feel the weight being loaded down on the front legs... you can do some back up and forequarter yielding to help them to get their weight back and lift their shoulder. The first thing I described where you lift your hand and move the inside leg off the circle on the ground is of course the basis of your nice hindquarter yield in the saddle.
When I was in Parelli stuff like this wasn't explained during the early levels, an instructor has since told me that at level 1 we wouldn't have been ready for the information. I'm going to disagree with that, some work on getting in time with the feet right from day 1 would have made a lot of sense of our groundwork and made things easier for us and the horses. I can think of a couple of relatively simple moves in our level 2 assesments that we tended to struggle with, that would have been completely different had we been "in time with the feet".
Ramble over for tonight... ;)
*Just re-read and to clarify - I mean the shoulder on the INSIDE of the circle, so furthest away from the horse. You may find this entails a bit of careful control of your body - many of us seem to have an instinct to dip the wrong shoulder. :-)

[Alyth Long]

Another thing to consider is to give the lightest possible ask. Think so light she cannot possibly respond and increase phases from there. I was amazed how small an ask my Arabians needed. I had been really yelling at them when I thought I was being polite!!! Alyth

[Lili & Morgan]

Oh Karen/CF ! I LOVE YOU!!!

Thanks so much for this post :)

My background/ my main interest is classical dressage, so I lOVE all subtle aids.

Alyth - Thanks for reminding me. I should always start in phase 1 ( writing it for me, I should write it at least 100 times before going to see my mare!!!
For my mare, just pointing in the direction was enough, but it was VERY windy and she got too excited, spooked, slid on the grass and fell.

I feel guilty to not have slow her down sooner. But I only knew to do a full disengagement.
Not anymore!!!
Thanks Karen :cool:

Where did you learn this, Karen? Any books? Is it Steve Halfpenny from Silversand or your classical trainer?

[Crystal Fire]

Thought you'd like it Lili. :)
This is Steve Halfpenny stuff, so I've learnt it on his clinics and from his DVD's. Lucky for me, my classical trainer, Karen French, is also a Silversand associate - so she understands completely what it's all about.
I do not use phases. I ask with a "phase one" level of pressure, then support the aid with another action. What action depends on the situation, the move required, the horse involved... An example would be - if I am working at liberty (slightly differently to how I learnt it in Parelli) I might drop back behind the horse, and tip my inside* shoulder to bring their head round towards me. If the tip of the shoulder doesn't work then I might pat the rump with my hand, or raise my inside hand out to the side to catch their eye - it depends.
Or - If I have lifted the rein and asked for some lateral flexion, I won't increas the pressure on that rein. I'd just wait, maybe tapping along the neck to soften the muscle with my free hand, but never an increase in pressure on the original aid. This goes for everything - no increase of pressure. (I think setting them up to be right and then just giving them time to think it out -waiting for the try - is a rather Mark Rashid thing as well).
Lili also bear in mind that what you think is phase 1 might not be to your horse. This is the lesson my Arab mare taught me, my phase 1 and the phase 1 of my Parelli instructors was shouting at her. Horses know you want something when you raise your energy and focus.
Oh p.s. Lili... you say your mare got excited and spooked, bear in mind that she did this because she didn't have enough attention on you. It's flipping hard to get and keep their attention sometimes, but doing little exercises like the yielding will help them to keep with you, because they don't know what you are going to ask next. Sometimes with "games" you easily get to the point where the horse just knows what you are going to ask, and just gets it done without really paying attention to you.
* Again, this is the shoulder to the inside of the arc, so if you are dropping behind the horse as he circles to the left, and you want the near hind to step under and the head to come around to the horse's left - drop your left shoulder.

[Lora]

I used parelli for my difficult arab because we had NO relationship at all. I had all these cowboy types around me telling me to tie his head overnight - that new horse is disrespectful. Gawd!

I didn't know where to turn but I could tell that cowboy crap is bad news and probably just the sort of thing that made him this way. (I was his third owner in a year, prior to me they had him three weeks!)

I don't think all parelli exercises work the same for every horse, I also don't think there is only one way. I believe all these NH instructors have some wonderful methods to help us speak to our horses and bridge the gap of mistrust.

Well done for finding the right path to get in touch with her. I'm so happy for you two!

[Lora]

Another thing to consider is to give the lightest possible ask. Think so light she cannot possibly respond and increase phases from there. I was amazed how small an ask my Arabians needed. I had been really yelling at them when I thought I was being polite!!! Alyth

OMG that's what I love about arabs, the sensitivity I've seen can be wonderful. I forget this far too often and need to bang it into my head to start with a small ask like you describe. I KNOW this to work but I forget.

I showed a lady at our barn (who has a Morgan) the pickup feet thing (parelli) by laying hand over the hock and phases rather than latching onto his leg like a dog bite. He instantly responded and she's been so thrilled to have something to use. I'm told he doesn't try to kick her anymore.

[LodgeRopes]

Lili,
I just logged on, made a coffee, and then saw your post.....
The excitement bubbled from every sentance and it made me remember that wonderous moment of sheer delight when I realised I can do this because my horse just did it!!!!! I am so happy for you, I know how you feel about your horse. Congratulations from your mates Downunder ::D

It is also wonderful to see the support of forum members.

and the posts by CF are full of the sort of info you can only get from experienced NH riders that are willing to share what they have learned ( at great personal financial expense). Steve at silversand is one of the good guys.....and CF explained the techniques so well it was like a private clinic. Lili, if any of CF's post is hard to follow right now, copy it, put it somewhere safe, then bring it out and re read it in the future as it will eventually fall into place and become a natural reponse to a given situation for you.

Good on ya CF...
re steve, we have a customer staying with us for a few days ( Gunnar, a German guy who was working in Papua New Guinea and bought ropes from us online) ,this year he spent 2 weeks at steves place in Sth Oz and got so much from the silversands program. he played with one of our appaloosas today and the 'contact' was excellent, (we are very critical and dont usually let other people play with our horses in training). Gunnar has only been around horses for 4 years but has obviously gained so much experience from steve and his nofuss techniques.

Lili, Sharon & I wish you both nothing but the best,,,have fun and stay safe

Rob

[jinglejoys]

Lili & Morgan,isn't it great when you suddenly start to have FUN with your equine.I got exactly the same Fizz as you when I watched a group of Parrelli people having a get together and was allowed to take Malaga (Then nicknamed Mad Malaga)along to the next session.
All of a sudden I was in control and had lots of help.I have had to learn not to shout though:),the slightest wrong tension or look and he got upset,I hadn't realised how sensitive he was.When I asked him something again and in a slightly lower phase he looks at me as if to say "THAT'S what you wanted then why didn't you ask? There was no need gto shout at me!":D

[Lili & Morgan]

Lodge Ropes - AND I was using YOUR rope-halter and YOUR lead-rope ... the Parelli instructor did not see any difference :D

Next step I have decided to get my mare back to barefoot. She was barefoot until last May, when she started to be lame, not being able "to grow faster than use".

So I am looking for a competent barefoot trimmer now ....

CF - thanks again for your precious posts ... yes i have copy/paste and print out.
I already use "in time with the feet" under saddle, I got fantastic lateral work (shoulder-in and travers), first time ME and my horse.
Thanks for letting me know I should do the same from the ground! doh!

[Spoof]

For my mare, just pointing in the direction was enough

Sounds like you have a really nice sensitive gal!

With my overly-sensitive guy I've found I have to to look as a phase one, pointing two - by then he's off. This is for circling, sideways, driving... a lot like doing field trials with a friend's lab in college, but without the whistle. :D I've taken him through dog agility courses at liberty and it is a hoot.

What is the silversands programs?

[Crystal Fire]

I already use "in time with the feet" under saddle, I got fantastic lateral work (shoulder-in and travers), first time ME and my horse.
Thanks for letting me know I should do the same from the ground! doh!

Yep - that's what I realised a few years into NH... a real DOH! moment!!
If you've copied and pasted my stuff above I have just edited it to clarify something about shoulders. I was doing my walking through stuff in my head as I did my yard work today and thought "I must just make sure they tip the correct shoulder..." :rolleyes:

Aw shucks Rob... :o Yes - I've seen Gunnar on some video Steve shot, he's great. We've got some amazing international students, I think Steve may actually be most appreciated by the people who live thousands of miles from him!

Silversand Natural Horsemanship is www.silversand.com.au - watch for the "Natural" to vanish sometime in the future. We've decided it just ain't appropriate or needed anymore - it's just horsemanship.

I'm not sure how well Silversand blends in with Parelli, as some aspects of these approaches are quite different. But I know a lot of people who do Parelli find that some of Steve's stuff can help them along. We get people on the clinics who are looking for help with PNH tasks, but they might be shown a very different way of achieving their goals. I sort of put my Parelli training to one side and concentrated solely on what Steve was teaching for a while, which suited me. However, I think that the Silversand DVD's - the few that they are - are rather cheap and very clearly explained, so they might be a useful addition to any NH student's collection. Steve is promising to bring out more, but that takes time when you're basically a one-man band!

[Lili & Morgan]

If you've copied and pasted my stuff above I have just edited it to clarify something about shoulders. I was doing my walking through stuff in my head as I did my yard work today and thought "I must just make sure they tip the correct shoulder..." :rolleyes:


Good because after reading/studying it, I realise I did not know which shoulder was the inside one :D

I really like Steve's DVD too. But I needed hands-on with my mare the first time.

CF - the first time we did games 4,5,6 & 7 was monday. Yep, my cheeky mare is very quick to learn so I cannot ask twice the same thing otherwise, she takes over.
Tuesday she fell because she was very agitated. It was a windy day, and after we started working, it started to blow a gale. I should have called it quit, and NOT let her canter ... "gale + agitated horse + canter" is not an ideal combination ....
We live, we learn! Experience is a sum of mistakes

[Lili & Morgan]

I have just edited it to clarify something about shoulders. I was doing my walking through stuff in my head as I did my yard work today and thought "I must just make sure they tip the correct shoulder..." :rolleyes:


Sorry I do not get it :confused:


* Again, this is the shoulder to the inside of the arc, so if you are dropping behind the horse as he circles to the right, and you want the near hind to step under and the head to come around to the horse's left - drop your left shoulder

If the horse is bent to the right, my inside shoulder is teh right one no the left one ???

How does it work???

[Crystal Fire]

Yeah... oh dear, I should stick to drawing pictures with my crayons LOL!
Picture your horse going around the pen to the left... you are walking with them, maybe in line with the hip, when you want them to come around to you, drop back so you are walking behind them but still in sight, and drop the LEFT shoulder to bring them around.
If you reward the tip of the head towards you by stopping, then maybe walk back a little if you want them to come to you, they will gradually get the idea and tune into what you are up to. From this you can develop a change of direction, so as they start to actually walk back and around to you, you change your focus and walk and send your energy straight out to the other side of the pen, so you are walking alongside them. If you project your energy at the right point on the opposite side of the pen your horse will actually turn away from it, and set off in the opposite direction (to the right in the example given above).
I'll edit my scribble above. :D

[mayoguinness]

Yeah... oh dear, I should stick to drawing pictures with my crayons LOL!
Picture your horse going around the pen to the left... you are walking with them, maybe in line with the hip, when you want them to come around to you, drop back so you are walking behind them but still in sight, and drop the LEFT shoulder to bring them around.
If you reward the tip of the head towards you by stopping, then maybe walk back a little if you want them to come to you, they will gradually get the idea and tune into what you are up to. From this you can develop a change of direction, so as they start to actually walk back and around to you, you change your focus and walk and send your energy straight out to the other side of the pen, so you are walking alongside them. If you project your energy at the right point on the opposite side of the pen your horse will actually turn away from it, and set off in the opposite direction (to the right in the example given above).
I'll edit my scribble above. :D

Its interesting, this is what I always used to do untill having lessons with Jayne, she teaches not to drop back behind the eye but come slightly infront to catch the horses attention and the take a few steps back and draw the horse into you:)Personally with the horses I work with either way works with them, they're just happy when you ask them in however you do it!

[Crystal Fire]

The reason I don't go forward to catch the eye is because, yes it catches their attention, but it also blocks the forward movement. What I am describing is almost like longlining at close quarters without the lines. I think it also reflects how you are going to ride more closely. If you stay working further back it is easier to catch the moment when they come around and re-direct it across the middle of your pen.
The sky's your limit with this, first you play with it softly at walk, then once you've got the hang of it anything is possible. People who have done Parelli can find it really hard though, because they have a built in muscle-memory for things like chasing the hind end, and sending the front. This is different, I feel it's not so much about telling the horse what to do, but asking him to work with your energy and body.
One exercise Steve does, where we play around with energy on-line, there comes a point where we are supposed to drop our energy, just focus past the horse's hind end and walk on past it with relaxation. All us ex-Parelli groupies immediately give the hind end a hard look and walk AT it, spinning the horse around to us, causing Steve to jump up and down in the background. :D Then when we finally get it, we can be seen physically fighting the urge to chase that hind end yet again.
Happy Birthday Steve by the way. :)

[mayoguinness]

The reason I don't go forward to catch the eye is because, yes it catches their attention, but it also blocks the forward movement. What I am describing is almost like longlining at close quarters without the lines. I think it also reflects how you are going to ride more closely. If you stay working further back it is easier to catch the moment when they come around and re-direct it across the middle of your pen.
The sky's your limit with this, first you play with it softly at walk, then once you've got the hang of it anything is possible. People who have done Parelli can find it really hard though, because they have a built in muscle-memory for things like chasing the hind end, and sending the front. This is different, I feel it's not so much about telling the horse what to do, but asking him to work with your energy and body.
One exercise Steve does, where we play around with energy on-line, there comes a point where we are supposed to drop our energy, just focus past the horse's hind end and walk on past it with relaxation. All us ex-Parelli groupies immediately give the hind end a hard look and walk AT it, spinning the horse around to us, causing Steve to jump up and down in the background. :D Then when we finally get it, we can be seen physically fighting the urge to chase that hind end yet again.
Happy Birthday Steve by the way. :)

True, however and I forgot to add, when you go slightly forward as soon as you've got their attention you go in a circular movement backing away and dropping slightly behind the eye, so not to block them so much that they change direction but more to ask them to slow and then draw back. I can emperthise with the staring at the hind end and making them spin to you! It took me ages before I grasped not to do this, I still have to stop myself now and I've never really done Parelli:o:rolleyes:

[Welsh_Girl]

Thank you very much Crystal Fire for sharing:D