Backing AWAY from me - (yo-yo related)

[Lili & Morgan]

Okay I am a newbie of NH.

Well my super-sensitive mare needs a slightest amount of pressure for almost everything :
- the porcupine game, I barely lay my fingers on her nose, or lightest pressure of the halter.
Idem with the carrot stick aplly to her chest or hip ... a bit more is needed behind her jaw.
- Circling game I just need to look ...etc..

:cool:

Except for the YO-YO game ... she has a tendency to run over me or push when scared .. eh! she is 17+hh I am only 5'2".
So to back her away from me with ryhtmic pressure YO-YO style I need to use phase 3 to 4. :eek: HOROR!

I hate it :mad:

How can I train her to be lighter?
I do not like to increase the phases.
I am foreigner ( read 3 languages, speak 3, write 2) and I know that if somebody tells me a word I do not understand SHOUTING at me the same word over and over again won't make me undertsand it either :mad:

so how can I train my mare to back away from me, using LIGHT rythmic pressure?

[mayoguinness]

Yep I used to have to do exactly the same with Mayo, now if you don't understand something the thing thats gunna help you understand is if your shown anouther way thats more simple. What I was taught to do with Mayo was to stop bothering his head and go to his chest. Putting slight pressure with my fingers untill he backs up while at the same time doing what would be classed as a phase one yoyo with the free hand near his eye to help him assosiate finger ears with backing up! It worked well with him:) and there was no need for phase fours;)

[Montana]

so how can I train my mare to back away from me, using LIGHT rythmic pressure?


You can't:D

In that I mean that one of the biggest, most important lessons I've learnt in my horsemanship over the past couple of years is that when teaching a new thing, or developing an existing skill, as much pressure as you WANT to use is not always as much pressure as you CAN use.

Look at it this way, would you think your horse would prefer that someone gave her a definite, clear single cue, which might make her startle fractionally, but would be unmistakeable. Or would she rather someone gave her lots of little signals, which weren't easily understandable, caused her to be confused, feel nagged at, and ultimately to think that she might as well literally walk all over you?

Now saying that, it doesn't mean you have to always give large cues. But you do need to use enough of a cue that she doesn't have to guess at what it means. And once she understands that, then you can start to reduce your cue down to where you actually want it, to fingertip pressure or a glance.

The other thing to bear in mind is something which Mark Rashid always emphasises a lot, and which we always work on at clinics - the difference between lightness and softness.

My horse is nearly always light, so he can be moved with fingertip pressure, or even looking at the area I want to move. But - he's nowhere near being always soft. Light relates to the outside of the horse. Soft relates to the outside and the inside of the horse. So when your horse is soft, they are yielding willingly, thinking things through as they do it, with no braces anywhere. When your horse is light, they may just be responding mechanically to a given cue. Light horses can still be tense horses, soft horses are relaxed horses.

Softness in the person is important too, but this doesn't mean being weak. It means using as little as possible, but as much as neccessary and being prepared to do so at any time the horse needs you to clear up a grey area and make it black and white for them. It's about sticking to your principles but being prepared to improvise whenever neccessary, without missing a beat. If you need to use more than you want to, then you have to be prepared to do so.

[Yann]

I get the impression an awful lot of people don't like this bit of Parelli, and it's always the one you hear the horror stories about. In your shoes I'd change what I was doing to make your request clearer and more obvious, even if it's off the script. Mayo's suggestion sounds good to me.

I'd personally only go with the idea of upping pressure if you're certain the horse is clear about what's being asked of it.

[Montana]

Sorry - I just realised I might not have been clear about the cue I would use. Personally, I don't know anything about Parelli, and wouldn't use a wiggling rope. My response was purely about ensuring the signal you use is clear, and makes sense, then increase pressure if neccessary. If the cue you are using isn't working, be prepared to use one which does. If your horse is running you over, then I think you need to be clearer and more decisive.

Yann - completely agree. No point in upping the pressure on an unclear cue.

[Yann]

I suppose it hinges on whether the yoyoing itself is what's causing the horse to become upset and run through the handler. If it isn't then I agree, being run over needs to be met with whatever it takes to stop it.

[mayoguinness]

I agree you can't have her running through you but I got the impresion it was because she didn't understand as she was light doing everything else. Also something I just remembered seeing at a Ken Faulkner demo, he realised that by wiggling the rope this confused some horses and it was as if they were going left and right in time as the rope wiggled, a clear backwards bump down the rope was a lot more effective and helpful to the horse. Also I suggest if you haven't already got one a clipless rope might be better as the bull clips often hit them in the face which can understandably cause to upset the horse more:)

[Crystal Fire]

Practise what you want your cue to be without horse first, so that you are clear when you work with her. Mine is to hold the rope, lift my arm forward and up, a bit like pointing, with raised energy. It sends a small feel down the rope (not a bump). If the horse doesn't understand this then what does she understand? Sounds like she might understand if you then reinforced it with a forward motion of your stick, as in your driving game. So you give your cue, reinforce it with the driving game, relax at the slightest yield back (not even a step), allow her thinking time, try again.
You are a classical riding student, try to think of some of this in these terms. If you were asking her to make a sidepass for you when ridden you would touch with your leg, but if she didn't respond you wouldn't kick harder would you? You would add something slightly different to explain, maybe a touch of a spur (ah, shaddup anyone who thinks spurs are evil LOL!), or a tickle from your whip.
A couple of other things I might use to reinforce a backup cue... I might use my stick and string and slap the ground behind me with the string, or in front if the horse is confident. (This is why I say practise a bit without a horse, if you try this stuff first time in front of her then it will be hard to get your timing right and you may confuse her). Mark Rashid lifts his open hands hard towards them and makes a shushing noise.
Horses running you over do need to be stopped, but I also think you have to consider what made them run over you in the first place. In this case she is running you over because of how you are asking her to backup, could this be an example of shouting rather than speaking quietly? ;)

[inhs]

I met a sensitive horse who also found this tricky recently (could do all the other groundwork stuff very lightly, it was just a 'i dont understand the cue' issue, rather than a mental 'I won't', or a physical 'my shoulders WILL stay planted' issue).

We got around it by doing this, and it worked very well:

+++++++++++++++++++++

Have horse in halter and rope.
Stand beside horse near saddle area, facing horses head.
Pick up lead rope, and hold it at withers (like you would when you ride)
Do a TINY bump backwards on lead rope (cant explain it properly, its not even a bump, just a lifting up of the rein a *fraction*so horse can barely feel weigh of rope move, and the stop & wait.
Repeat till you get *any* sort of backwards movement (even just a shift of weight)
Then stop & rub.

Her horse just didnt understand what the side to side yo yo meant and was getting confused. So we tried to figure out how we could explain it better to horse. (horse stood / walked forward at normal yoyo, and then move backwards from lightest pressure when we used rope as rein, which is the goal after all)

An alternative, which probably wont work as well as above tho, is to stand in front of horse (like usual yo yo) but instead of moving rope from side to side, move it up and down.

I got humans to close their eyes and practise side to side swinging V up & down swinging, and they said up & down was much more intuitive to undterstand as 'move backwards'

Good luck.

[Lili & Morgan]

Yann - my mare would run over me in EXTREME stress conditions for her ... when blowing a gale, storm. Then she has panic attack. To be able to control her feet away from her is a must. The Yo-Yo is a great way to defend my space at distance. I just want her to understand it with less energy.

Montana - GREAT post it just reminds me the difference between light and soft ... I know exactly what you mean! As I have experienced it with my previous horse.

Mayo, CF, Inhs - thanks for all the ideas.
Today we improved to phase 2 to 3 ... so lighter.

I do like the idea to be able to back her away from me with the lead rope. It makes life so easier.
Yes, she backs away if I tap the air with my hands.

It is only the Yo-Yo that she seems to resist.

[Lili & Morgan]

Oh forgot to say that I re-hearse my move at home by tying the rope halter to a sturdy chair, and swinging my carrot stick in my living-room :p

I also visualize all my games.

And ... I was thinking "to use" my 6yrs old son in the circling game, just to be sure to get my timing right ...
Not sure about that one, I woory he will just run away ... :D

[inhs]

good luck :) like CF also says ( :) ) if your first cue doesnt work, instead of getting bigger, maybe changing the cue to something just as light but different, can work really well.

Its like explaining things to people - you might try one way, but person doesnt get it. Instead of shouting the same thing again at them, you've got to figure out a different way to explain it which they'll understand more easily.

Whats not important is teaching the move/concept a certain way according to a book / trainer, but achieving the goal you want by explaining it a way your horse understands.

looking forward to your progress :)