Parelli problem - am i missing something?

[Roofio]

Me and the boys have only just started and are being shown the way by a friend at the yard.

J is enjoying the friendly game a lot and is getting good at the porcupine game, especially the backing up. However, his backing up in the driving game just isn't happening. We have tried tapping the rope, tapping the ground, wiggling the rope - nothing. as soon as you touch his chest, either with the carrot stick or with your hand he backs up, but he doesn't seem to have made the connection between the signal and the desired movement.

He comes forward brilliantly (and ironically for a horse whose favourite trick is to plant and refuse to move!) but backwards just isn't happening.

Any ideas?

Thanks :)

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

try saying 'back' or 'back up' maybe he might find it a bit more obvious what you want him to do if you associate it with a sound?

[Roofio]

tried that! but thanks :)

[*-crazy-chaz-*]

okiies ;)

just persist then! :)

[Peace]

I'm not following you, I'm afraid.:) Your horse will back up if you touch his chest, but you want to teach him to back up when you give him a different signal?

[Kate F.]

Give the new signal just before the one that already works. Repeat a few times, and the horse will start responding to the new signal, knowing the established one comes immediately after.

Leave a short pause between the 2 signals - maybe one or 2 seconds, to give the horse the chance to respond to the new signal, but not more or the horse will not make the connection.

As you do this have a very clear picture in your own mind of the horse stepping back from the first signal, and know it's going to happen, it's just a matter of how many times you have to repeat the sequence.

[Lili & Morgan]

Hi I had the same problem.

I had great advices here

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129481

It worked very well :cool:

[Kirstin]

Hi Roofie,

I had exactly the same problem up until a few weeks ago! B was brilliant at the friendly, pretty good at the Porcupine but simply looked at me when I asked to back up in the Driving Game. The two pieces of advice that worked for me were:

- Don't give up! If you ask your boy to back up by tapping the rope or ground, don't give up until he does (even if this means going to phase four and gently tapping him or nudging the rope. Just make sure you keep the rhythm up.) If you give up, he won't think you're serious - the key is out persisting him!
- Make sure you're really giving him your most serious 'you ARE going to back up' look. It sounds simple, but working on my 'stare' and really believing he would back up seemed to be the key for us
- and don't despair. Seriously, it took me weeks to crack it, but one day B took a step back and I was so happy I jumped around like an idiot!

It sounds like you've got a similar horse to me! He's a real LB introvert. My boy actually lay down once to stop working!! Do you know the anti-planting techique? It's actually part of the Yoyo game, but a Parelli instructor told me about it at HOYS. It's been a life saver for us. At one stage, I couldn't get B to leave the stable if he didn't want to (ie it wasn't time to go to the field!). Basically, instead of just hauling on the rope, when your boy plants, gradually move around him, keeping pressure up of the rope, until the angle is so acute that he has to move - perhaps only half a step. As soon as he moves, release pressure on the rope. Ask him to move forward again, and if he doesn't, repeat the process the other side of him. The key is releasing pressure as soon as he moves, and persistance! It took us half an hour to get B down the barn the first time (the other owners must have thought we were crazy!), but now he comes straight away!

Would love to know how you get on.

Kxx

PS: Sorry for the incredibly long post, but the reply I recieved on a different forum really helped us. See below:

Make sure that you're giving "I'm gonna kill you" body language lol - like another horse would use if it wanted your little guy out of the way. "Lay your ears back", stand up straight, and glare. Make sure you are positioned correctly with the stick so he understands what you want. Start at phase 1 pressure and move up until he moves. Make it HIS responsibility to move out of the stick's way. If he moves forward, he should be running into the stick, right? You're not hitting him, but if your stick is there, and he walks into it, that was HIS responsibility (make sure you're giving the right body language tho). Don't move out of HIS way!! The stick is just an extension of your arm, so the stick should never be moving out of his way either if he moves forward. Neither would a fence. If he moved forward into a fence, he'd hit it, right? So let him hit the "fence".

Without actually seeing him, it is hard to say, but it sounds like he's moving into your pressure to avoid it.

If he just stands there, increase the pressure - make your movements bigger and bigger and closer to him. Once you've gotten as big and as close as you can and he STILL hasn't moved, touch. Just brush his hindquarters, or the hairs of his nose, or his neck, or his legs (dependant upon which part you're driving) gently but without losing your rythm. Look at it like this: you're driving him out of a "spot", the area he is standing on, for example. Drive into that "spot" and if he still is there and has not moved out of the spot, well the stick is still going to continue rythmically, increasing in phases, into that spot. If he's still there, he's allowing himself to "run into" the stick.

Rythm and continuity (don't stop, move forward towards him at a steady rate) is very important.

My warmblood would just stand there, so I would have to touch (after going through the phases) his hindquarters. I'd also play a lot of the driving game from the front - walking towards him and basically asking him to back out of my way (if you do this, don't let your horse avoid the pressure by simply turning away - he has to actually back up - if he tries to deek off to the side, correct him with a quick, instant release snap of the leadrope). I'd start walking towards him, asking him rythmically to back up, increasing my phases. If he was still there, well his legs ran into the stick! Jonathan Field helped me with this one when I went to a couple of his clinics. My horse was walking all over me and was NOT very good at the driving game. With horses like these, they take a bit more pressure and a more "dominant" and "loud" posture from yourself. When I'm working with my Quarab and my mom's TB or other sensitive horses, I have to greatly decrease my assertiveness and become extremely quiet, since they are more sensitive.

Don't be afraid to allow him to hit the stick, or your barrier. Make it HIS responsibility. Remember a boss horse would be doing MUCH worse (I'm sure you've seen marks on your horse and/or others where a higher horse has removed hair or even skin!).

[Pink's lady]

See, this is why I don't like parelli - your horse backs up perfectly well to the lightest signal he understands but parelli insists you force a new method that he doesn't understand onto him for no disernable good reason? Why fix something that's not broken? Parelli is so ridged and fixed that no other method is acceptable - it's their way or the highway.

Kalli was excatly the same. You could yell, scream and stamp your feet in front of her and bang her face with the rope until you got tired and she wouldn't even lean back (she just got frightened). Touch her lightly on the chest and say 'back' and she'd reverse into the next country if you asked. So I did the sensible thing and gave up. Instead I used clicker training to teach her to go back with no touching - now you point at her and say 'back' and she reverses.

Why not use the bit of parelli that works for you and miss out the bits that s don't - doesn't make you a terrible person;) If it's something you do want then find a different training method that works (maybe clicker training)

[Crystal Fire]

I can discuss "how to" with Parelli, but to be honest I wouldn't tackle these tasks in exactly the Parelli way. However, if someone is going to follow through the programme then I guess they're going to have to learn all this yo yo stuff, letting horses walk into sticks etc... :confused:
I hate this talk of giving a snap with the leadrope, knowing what is connected to the end of that leadrope - the darn clip. I also can't see the sense of this tapping the rope with the stick for backup... and this is why... it puts a downward and jerking pressure on the rope. I'd use a downward pressure if I wanted downward, not back.
I think Pink's lady is giving you some good advice in that, if you want to get your horse "yo-yo"ing backwards, then try supporting it with something the horse does understand, rather than increasing the pressure (ie swinging on the rope). Can your horse reverse from a driving game, or pressure of the carrot stick in the chest? How about getting some rope skills and learning to whack the string on the end of your carrot stick BEHIND you to reinforce an upward lift of the rope and focus for back? Whatever you do, you need to get the timing of your release just right. To start with you shouldn't be looking for a complete backward step, that would be a bonus, a thought back would be great to build on.
A lot of horses run forward when asked to back up, and I personally don't think it's normally about them being "dominant", I think it's because they are confused about what's being asked, or the person has asked too "loudly", or they have asked for too much at the first attempt.
The anti planting technique is just pressure and release. How about working on what some other great horsemen advocate, which is to keep a "smile" in the rope? So instead of putting pressure on the front, you could move the hind, aiming to push on some part of your horse rather than pull.

Sorry... I'm going way off topic for a how to Parelli thread. I'll bow out now.

However - You know what? I'm finding a lot of the Parelli-speak to be really negative. It was something that struck me when I was watching the Horsenalities pack recently.

p.s. Is Jonathan Field that nice young guy who's about to pass level 3?

[LodgeRopes]

Great thread on a common problem.
The yo-yo game is one that causes a lot of problems and we have seen students create problems for themselves and their horse, not solve them.
The aim is to get a consistant response to a specific cue, everytime, then maintain the response to softer cues. That becomes communication without a lot of emotional content. The key word in the last sentance, in my mind, is 'response'. I am looking for a response not a reaction. So the rope shaking back up in level 1 often gets a reaction, avoidance of pressure is the most common reaction as the horses searches for a way out. I do understand that this may be a part of a learning process, but sharon & i very quickly questioned the effectiveness of creating an emotional boil over at anytime during the training of a large heavy and strong animal. Many of the level 1 students we had in our parelli Study group had similar experiences, the horse would back well with just fingertips under the noseband or on the chest or shoulder, but the pressure of the rope shaking was lost on some horses and the student quickly upped the pressure till the previously calm horse started head tossing, avoiding and generally 'losing it'. We had to do the rope shake back up for assessment, so we cheated. We had the horse back up, long & straight with the finger wiggle (phase 1) just above the noseband. of course it was our body position and intent/energy that was giving the cue to back away from the pressure. Very quickly the horse got it, then you increased the distance until you got the desired response to the finger wiggle with or without the 12ft lead in your hand. It gets a pass and the horse remains calm and soft to cues.
Just think about each action...will it help create a responsive horse or is it creating a reactive horse? Work with what works then use that as the aid to expand the cue..as already mentioned in posts.

good luck
Rob

[AengusOg]

Eureka!!!

Pink's lady and I agree on something. :)

I think you've got some good advice already here. What I would say is, keep it simple, both for yourself and your horse.

[Yann]

My feeling is that the yoyo (and bull clip) are in there for a specific reason, despite the fact finger wiggling has no intuitive meaning to the horse. To my mind following it to the letter would have a tendency to really tip the balance of the relationship in favour of the handler, 'showing it who's boss' in effect, even if it tends to be dressed up in all the left brain / right brain / persistence / promise jargon. Whether you want or need that with your horse is a matter of personal choice.

[Alyth Long]

It seems to me that there has been no reward for the slightest try. Perhaps the original poster didn't recognise the try so the horse stopped trying. Alyth

[Sexy Sietske]

Sietske was like this...for a horse she is a bit on the dippy side. Long phases and stopping at weight shift worked for her...now she is just ignorant so have to snap at her with a phase 4 when she has her 'heads in space' look to wake her up and get her paying attention.

It could be that he doesn't feel comfortable backing up with you standing quite close to him so keeping it steady and trying not to over focus on it will make him more comfortable about it.

[Kate F.]

See, this is why I don't like parelli - your horse backs up perfectly well to the lightest signal he understands but parelli insists you force a new method that he doesn't understand onto him for no disernable good reason? Why fix something that's not broken? Parelli is so ridged and fixed that no other method is acceptable - it's their way or the highway.


Whereas I totally agree about the imperfections of the Parelli system, I can think of 4 good reasons for people persevering with backing up in this way - or at least a similar way that meets the reasons below.

Firstly, it is a lovely, clear, easy to follow example of how the horse learns. In a few minutes you can teach it to back away from a very light signal - and YOU the handler, have taught it - not just pushed a button that someone else installed. That's a really important lesson for the PERSON. In backing up from the rope, you have a bit of distance between you and the horse, and you can study its decision making process. You can play around with it and find out just how light you can be and just how sensitve the horse is.

Secondly, it's not just about moving the feet back, it's about personal space. As the horse backs up from the rope, the person's personal space is increased. If you poke it in the chest to send it back - you have to go with it (unless you have incredibly long arms :D! ) so the space doesn't really change and you lose that aspect of the effect on the hores - which is an important and powerful one.

Thirdly, there can be times when you want to be able to create space between yourself and the horse quickly and safely. Then poking it in the chest isn't an option as you have to be too close. A horse that steps back immediately from a shake on the rope is a lot safer to be around than one you have to touch to move it!

Fourthly, it can be a good way to compare and distinguish reactive against responsive behaviour. The horse that backs into the next county when you touch its chest is reactive - not really what we want. I think Parelli makes a mistake here in getting people to ask for several steps back at a time. I prefer one step at a time, so you get the horse really responsive. It often takes Parelli horses longer to become responsive rather than reactive because of this, IMHO - but that doesn't take away from the exercise as being a good place to study this difference in a slow, controlled way.

I think it's a shame Parelli doesn't explain these things - and that's my biggest criticism of the Parelli System. The exercises are fine as far as they go, but he's very light on telling you WHY they are important and why they work.