"Per i casi suoi" - very independante mare

[Lili & Morgan]

Well I have started a new realationship with my mare. Or at least I am working to understand her better.

3 different horse-trainers has descrbed her as "per i casi suoi". Sorry I live in Italy, it is the best way to describe her. Basically she minds her OWN business and blatantly ignores human beings, especially ME, unless you use a fair amount of pressure.

An example :
we walked along a lane. She planted her feet, and stared in the horizon.
I looked in the same direction ... beuh? I could not see anything.
Anyho, she was frozen staring.
So to call back her attention:
- I put a light pression on the lead rope in order to lower her head ...
Nothing still staring,
- I tickled her lips,
nothing still staring
- I pinched, tickled her nose,
nothing stil staring,
- I put a tidbit of carrot under her nose
nothing,
- between her lips,
nothing
- UP HER NOSE,
NOthing could not care less still staring away ..

Then AFTER A WHILE she stopped, looked down to me asking for a carrot :D

She is very curious, bold mare :)

The different horse-trainers using different techniques (clicker type, intimidation, NH) could get her attention and her collaboration.

But ME I am not able to get her with me. I am able to make her exercise, but I am not sure, she is with ME. she does her Yo-yo or circling game at lighest cue, then when she halts she looks left or right away etc ...

What shall I do to get her to look at me?
If I use more pressure, she starts running. I do not want to!

Shall I give more stimulations without too much pressure? but then she wounds herself up :(

I am clueless. I would like to get her attention better, without upping the pressure!

[Dooley]

I don't think that's curious at all. Horses senses are totally different from ours and they can hear or see things that we can't. She thinks whatever is over there at the horizon needs her attention and you tickling her is not going to distract her. She knows best what is important ;-)

[Wally]

She knows best what is important

On the plains of the Steppes, or the rolling tundra or in a huge desert with marauding killers maybe! But in the modern world she has to be taught to put her trust in a herd leader and do what they say without arguing.

While she's staring dewey eyed over the horizon looking for her imaginary killer a real one in the shape of a 40 tonne articulated lorry might well be her undoing if she doesn't listen to the gaffer and do what is requested.

[mayoguinness]

Well I have started a new realationship with my mare. Or at least I am working to understand her better.

3 different horse-trainers has descrbed her as "per i casi suoi". Sorry I live in Italy, it is the best way to describe her. Basically she minds her OWN business and blatantly ignores human beings, especially ME, unless you use a fair amount of pressure.

An example :
we walked along a lane. She planted her feet, and stared in the horizon.
I looked in the same direction ... beuh? I could not see anything.
Anyho, she was frozen staring.
So to call back her attention:
- I put a light pression on the lead rope in order to lower her head ...
Nothing still staring,
- I tickled her lips,
nothing still staring
- I pinched, tickled her nose,
nothing stil staring,
- I put a tidbit of carrot under her nose
nothing,
- between her lips,
nothing
- UP HER NOSE,
NOthing could not care less still staring away ..

Then AFTER A WHILE she stopped, looked down to me asking for a carrot :D

She is very curious, bold mare :)

The different horse-trainers using different techniques (clicker type, intimidation, NH) could get her attention and her collaboration.

But ME I am not able to get her with me. I am able to make her exercise, but I am not sure, she is with ME. she does her Yo-yo or circling game at lighest cue, then when she halts she looks left or right away etc ...

What shall I do to get her to look at me?
If I use more pressure, she starts running. I do not want to!

Shall I give more stimulations without too much pressure? but then she wounds herself up :(

I am clueless. I would like to get her attention better, without upping the pressure!

I have this with a mare I'm working with, she'll do all I ask but never seems to really focuse and look at me like Mayo does, so I keep her busy, if shes gone into staring and listerning to her surroundings mode and not me I'll back right up to her hind qauters and straight away shes looking for me or if we're at liberty I'll run off. Every time her attention leaves me I do something shes not expecting to get her attention back on me, but not in dominant, scary, controlling way but more in a hey come on stop staring at that tree, come and play way:) If I was riding, and the horses attention left me I'd be asking them to be flexing and yielding, you could try this to if your online:)
x

[Lili & Morgan]

Wally - my thoughts exatcly!

Dooley - it is an example of her behaviour, but it transpires into everything. For example trimming, if she has enough, she goes off.

Mayo - yep extacly what you describe.
Just a voice command will get her back to me, for her then to navigate away again.

She is a very dominant mare.

Do I have to become very assertive to get her attention and leadership?
And how?
keeping her busy?

[Wally]

If she is that dominant, you have but one path....you got to take her place in the herd hierachy! ;) ;)

Something I am battling with ATM. One of our mares thinks she be god, she is the only horse that has ever kicked me more than once. That old witch has had me 3 times now! Today I saw the flicker of respect, but it's hard work.

[laura jeanne]

If you are walking her in hand, try holding a dressage whip in your left hand and if she stops, flick it behind your back at her rear legs and keep her moving. Practice stopping and walking at your decision, not hers. Look straight ahead and don't say anything, just go when you decide and stop when you decide and she will have to concentrate on your body language to know what to do. This works really well with my RS horse.

[wonkeywoody]

Ditto the above(s)!
Keep her busy. If she is staring into space, move her hind quarters..... You can get tougher with out making her upset. Jsut use different tactics. They all test you so you are not alone!

[Dooley]

I don't think that's curious at all. Horses senses are totally different from ours and they can hear or see things that we can't. She thinks whatever is over there at the horizon needs her attention and you tickling her is not going to distract her. She knows best what is important ;-)


Major misinterpretation of this comment, guys. The ;-) being a wink, it was totally tongue in cheek. She THINKS she knows best.
Should have put ;) I suppose.

But I still don't think it's curious behaviour at all.
Undesirable if you really can't get her attention, but I don't think the things described to get her attention would be considered to be all that effective with lots of horses. She needs to be taught when a tickle up her nose (really?) means she has to stop paying attention to whatever is worrying her in the distance and pay attention to the tickler. But I think Laura Jeanne's method would be a lot more effective to be honest than any of the things given as examples.

[KateWooten]

She sounds very like Rosie ... and Summer. You can become big enough to get her attention, but you have to be quite determined to do so. She perhaps doesn't feel like she has any good reason for giving up her dominance. Perhaps she feels like she's doing absolutely fine, thankyou, and has no need of your services. That's how both Rosie and Summer had me feeling. I had to get quite athletic with each of those ladies. With Summer, it was particularly recent. I think we'd been playing this game the whole 18 months I've known her, and were no further towards getting a real relatonship going, than she had been with her previous owner - who sold her to me in absolute hands-up 'I give up' frustration with the mare.

Now three weeks after our conversation, Summer and I are going great. She's been taking me through a little course of jumping lessons, we're now up to 2ft 9 courses .. we jumpedyesterday in front of her old owner ... that was quite an odd moment, but I'm sure the old owner is pleased to see her old horse working so much better, and so much happier.

You can go on, chipping away at this, and maybe you'll get there, I don't know. For me, with each of my dominant mares, we had to reach a point where I had to say "ok, no more of this. You can can give me your undivided attention if you want to - the only thing stopping us, is that you're choosing not to. Now choose to." And they did. But it wasn't particularly pretty for a couple of hours there.

[Harry Hobbes]

What shall I do to get her to look at me?
If I use more pressure, she starts running. I do not want to!

Shall I give more stimulations without too much pressure? but then she wounds herself up :(

I am clueless. I would like to get her attention better, without upping the pressure!If you want to gain her interest, then be interesting.

Remember what Parelli advises about the indirect approach: When she focuses on something else do something/anything that she doesn't expect a human to do.

For example, get down on all fours, and walk away from her on your hands and knees (still holding the lead rope.) Or, start doing some exercises right there; such as "jumping jacks," "sit-ups," or such. Or, open up a book, and start leafing through it with dispatch, and whisper the passages into her ear.

Or, see if you can crouch down and slowly sneak around behind her. (I'll bet you can't without her turning to see what you're up to back there.)

If you use your imagination, you will find that you can do innumerable things that will cause her to look at you to see what on earth you are doing.

When she does, reward her.

Do this consistently, and she will come to the habit of watching you to see the next surprise. That is, she'll find you interesting enough to focus on you.

Best regards,
Harry

[Lili & Morgan]

Dooley - it was a comical example!


Kate W - nice to hear from you. Linda is a smart cooky. she will obey at the slightest cue then go back to mind her own business. She is not misbehaving, but she does not bother to connect to me.

It is hard to explain .. it is like "okay I listen but eh! you are not interesting !"

Harry Hobbes- I LOVE your post. I think it may be the way. I must become smarter than her and more interesting ...

It is the crunch-time for us. Because of health reasons I cannot get more athletic that I already am (yes, I am working at it, going to the gym etc..., but one has his limits).
I need to find a way to be able to connect to her.

Otherwise we will have to divorce, after 3 years of effort and work ... I am coming to the end of my patience and of my will to make this relationship work.

[Teazle]

Some thoughts/ideas...

Maybe Parelli isn't the way to go with her? There are other natural horsemanship techniques if that's your thing. For some horses the 'old' way works best though. It depends on their personality really.

Maybe what you do with her is, to her, boring. If anyone wanted to do dressage with our pony he'd be bored silly and would just take the mickey constantly. He likes hacking, xc and jumping. Try some new activities, find something she likes and as you train her to do that, the respect will come.

Earn some respect, as others have said. Be persistent and assertive.

[Crystal Fire]

Lili, I read this earlier and have been thinking about it...

There is no right and wrong when you're dealing with horses, you are both living, breathing and aware beings and so there are always going to be variables. With horses all we need to be is the person that individual horse needs us to be. With the easy going laid back horse then we just need to be much the same, and maybe we don't need to be quite as strong and maybe the horse will make allowances if we are weak. With a challenging horse we need to be someone completely different, and for some of us that involves digging deep into ourselves to find out "who am I?".
Reading your post I wonder, can you do the things that the other trainers do with your horse, the things that work? If you can't then do you know why not? Is it physical, maybe mental? At Steve Halfpenny clinics he sometimes poses the question "Who are you?" meaning, are you the person your horse needs you to be? In the past I have parted with a horse because I wasn't that person, I was brave and strong for him, but eventually I realised that I just couldn't keep being like that every day because on the inside I was scared.
I am sure that the other trainers manage to say to your horse "I'm HERE, I am bigger and more important than anything else you might get distracted by". Can you dig into yourself and do that? It's just that you say you might have to "divorce". If you're at that point I have to ask you if you are having fun yet? Because having horses is supposed to be fun, and you deserve some.
Ah, I hope it's OK to say all this, it's just that I sympathise with you rather on this one. (((Hugs)))
(Teazle, we've crossed. Where Lili lives, if she wants ongoing help from an instructor in person, Parelli is the only NH option she's got. If she was near a Silversand instructor I personally think it would be great).

[Lili & Morgan]

meaning, are you the person your horse needs you to be? .

Well after the Parelli session, who was a GREAT eye opener, I am realising that I am NOT!
My mare is very bound to me. She calls me, she comes to me in the paddock etc..
All is well if there is no stress.
But she sees me as her FRIEND and a carrer not a leader.

What happened when I play with her? Well, if I look right, she will circle to the right, but look outisde the circle. I look her hindquarters, she will diesngage and face me, but she won't look at ME. I look one direction or other she will go.

I am technically good, I have a good timing and a good technique. BTW, the timing with the feet work great! But I think I cannot be BIG enough in the meaning present enough for her. :(
It is a mental thing!

It is heart-breaking because I love her to bit, but I cannot be the right person for her.

What is good is that I realize what kind of horse I need. I need a more laid-back less athletic horse.

I now shall pray the universe to find the right owner for her.

[Crystal Fire]

I know some people will say you shouldn't give up Lili, but I know how much blood, sweat and tears you've put in with this horse, and I admire you for making a tough decision. The fact is that the right person for your mare is out there, and they will probably wonder what the problem is... and really it's just that you are mis-matched.
My friend took delivery of a horse this week, he's beautiful and was sold for half his value because his owners were terrified of him, and he was a "problem" horse. Well, with my friend he isn't a problem at all, just a little bit pushy, but nothing to worry about. So a good match has been made (and what a bargain!).
You remember my friend in Italy who passed away? I visited her with Shuna Shaw from Silversand, to help her work with her very challenging mare. During the session on the second day my friend just broke down in tears and said "I can't do it" - and I didn't blame her, I wouldn't have wanted to "do it" either! So that mare ended up going to the Italian cowboys to roam wild and have babies. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and make a hard decision, to do the best for you and the horse.
(((Hugs))) to you Lili.

[chickyd444]

when i ride my horse past the grave yard he often stops still and silent. and nothing can gainhis attention i let him have a mo then we walk on at his say so :confused: