Treeless Saddles. How much can they help?

[Brodies_Girl]

Hi, I know there have been loads of post with regards to the best treeless saddles etc but I am curious as to how much they can help.
I have a bucking bronco of a horse, theres nothing wrong with him he just lets you know if he doesn't like your idea! He's fab with me on the ground he just doesnt seem to associate that with the same me on his back!
Would a treeless saddle make him feel more relaxed and therefore help with the bucking problem?
Thanks in advance
K x

[No_Angel]

A treeless saddle would stop the bucking if his current saddle is a bad fit or if he doesn't like treed saddles, but they are not a magical cure for behavior problems im afraid:)

[Brodies_Girl]

Damn it!! Continue with hard work.....keep searching for miracle cure!! :D

[No_Angel]

so why does he buck and how often does he buck?

[Brodies_Girl]

He doesnt buck on the lunge (tacked up or with roller) He only bucks in his field if hes showing off, he only bucks when you ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, when free-schooling and I ask him to change direction or if hes jumping and gets too speedy, i stand in front of the jump until he calms down he bucks then or sadly if hes being ridden and he thinks hes done enough trot and wants to walk again, if you ask him to continue trotting your a gonner!
People have said ' you just have to stay on' but really there isnt a hope in hell! He comes flying off the floor in a fowards direction then rounds his back and bucks, you just CANNOT stay on.....ive tried! :(

[No_Angel]

Sounds similar to Shay, he will stick his head down and rodeo buck if he doesn't want to do something, and when he gets excited he will leap with all 4 feet into the air and sometimes spins around in the other direction in mid air:rolleyes:
I haven't come off yet, and he stops after about 6 bucks.

I think the only way you can try and stop it is by trying different things, maybe chiro, massage, different bit, no bit, different saddle, treeless saddle, no saddle, and see if the behaviour changes at all:) Once you know what causes it you can find out how to cure it.

[Brodies_Girl]

He is getting a bitless (dr cook style) bridle for christmas, I havent tried riding him bareback but I dont tend to ride him at all anymore :( I'll get there
Thank you

[lachlanandmarcu]

Hi

I ride both of mine (17h IDxTB and 14.2 Haflinger) in both treeless and treed saddles. They are cool either way, but I would say that I would have a bit less chance to stay on if they freaked in the treeless, as I have longer leg/stirrup length and less weight in the stirrups. :(

Maybe that wouldnt be needed if horsie loved the treeless ! but something to bear in mind. Also the treeless is bigger than a normal saddle and sits a bit further back so if there was any undiagnosed back issues then it could exacerbate them in theory.

Def not trying to be discouraging. And dont worry about what age the horse is to introduce a treeless saddle - my IDxTB didnt see one till he was 13 and my Haffie was backed in it!:D

BTW my treeless is a Treefree Dartmoor which are really high quality English made ones - would highly recommend it.

[No_Angel]

Very surprised you feel you would fall off in the dartmoor, I have 2 a dartmoor and an exmoor and think I could defiantly stay in if my horse 'spooked' (he doesn't really spook, just kind of spins and legs it or jumps in the air):rolleyes:

[MelanieD]

I tried a dartmoor and felt really insecure in it. Coblet is rather wide and was Fat at the time so way too wide to be comfortable and I actually felt the stirrup bars were too far back and tipped me forwards (I normally like stirrup bars set back). Coblet did a few bucks in it and if not for her being polite enough to keep it to little ones and stop when I was off balance I'd have been gone! SBS and Fhoenix OTOH are brilliant, feel very secure in them and they seem to absorb some of the energy of a buck and make it easier to sit.

Treeless saddle may or may not help, depends on why he's bucking. Have you had saddle fit and back checked?

[No_Angel]

Maybe im just extra stickable:D I seem to be able to sit a buck in anything:rolleyes:

[MelanieD]

I'm usually pretty sticky! The only bucks that have got rid of me so far were ones where I wasn't properly on the pony in the first place when they tried to join the rodeo :D I really felt more secure bareback than in that saddle (and actually took it off and got back on bareback to discuss pony's behaviour), but i think a lot of it was a combination of shape of coblet + shape of saddle.

[Brodies_Girl]

EVERYTHING has been checked, theres nothing wrong with him physically hes just stubborn! Chiropractor said he was lacking muscle along his back and he really leans on his forehand but he hadnt been worked in at leat six months when I got him.
I can sit to any buck but his he's really mastered it! A couple of years after I started riding I rode a horse that bucked vertically and ran into corners if you did the slightest thing wrong so I don't think it's me....maybe it is....:(
Perhaps I should get some brave person with a super sticky bum to ride him.... maybe he just doesnt like me.
I'm sorry I shouldnt post when i'm miserable.

[lachlanandmarcu]

I really feel for you!

What about what they use to safely break horses who buck when rider on - a dummy (scarecrow but more upright and solid) to imitate a person (weight etc) firmly secured (wont help if it flies off!) and then let the horse work through their rebellion with crash test dummy not you? It might be worth a try if youre at the stage where the horse has worked out how to get you off so effectively, and would be safe for you?

Hope thats a helpful idea?
:)

[wedney]

Hi Brodies girl,
Do not beat your self up about this as firstly it is not your fault and secondly any ill feeling you have towards your horse will affect the relationship between you.
When I first got my current horse, I could even sit on her (no one could) without her launching into full bronco mode.

Right now hopefully onto some constructive help (hopefully ;))

Horses are not stubborn, naughty or disobedient in the sense that we normally mean it. They are reactionary and communicate all the time. This means that your horse is reacting to something and communicating to you that he doesn't like it. When a horse communicates in a way that goes against what we want he is often seen as pig headed, stubborn etc but is probably confused, frightened or uncomfortable about whatever it was they were asked and their reaction is them trying to let us know this.

Ignore these signs at your peril, ignored horses either withdraw into themselves and become dull and unhappy or they have to make even bigger gestures to 'make themselves heard' horses in this category often get labeled as dangerous but are often the most wonderful sensitive horses if you can understand them.

You have done the right thing by having him thoroughly checked out, and going bitless is certainly a good idea. No Angel is right treeless saddles are not magic but can certainly make a difference.

It is very difficult without seeing you both but it sounds like one of the reasons for bucking maybe that as he was not ridden for a while and lacks muscle he not yet physically capable of what you asking him to you and it is his way of showing you it is uncomfortable. It is surprising how much we do actually ask of our horses when they don't really have the muscle strength for it.

These are things I can suggest

As you already do groundwork which is great, try and do groundwork which will build up strength in his hindquarters. Try Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling or this site for inspiration and ideas on how to do this www.artofnaturaldressage.com

Keep your sessions short at first, give him plenty of breaks on a long rein. (My schooling sessions typically last 15-20 minutes at the moment as I know that this is all my mare can cope with just now).

When you do trot, only ask him do go for a short time, maybe half a circle or so before asking him to walk so you are stopping before he feels that he wants to stop.

Look out warning signs that he is going to buck to try and avert the situation before he does, stop and take a break or something or go back to walk and focus on another exercise instead.

Good luck :)

[MelanieD]

Have you ever tried lunging his ars off when he dumps you? Then get back on and calmly ask for what you wanted in the first place. Makes dumping the human mean some hard work and makes the rodeo performance a lot less appealing. Some horses do just learn that they can dump human and get out of work that way.

If you can catch him as he's just going for the first buck head up and right around to one side and circle can be a good distraction from a handstand and make it harder to buck.

Treeless might be worth a try, even if his saddle should be a perfect fit there might be something he doesn't like about it, trying a treeless would at least check if it might be something like that.

[Brodies_Girl]

Spoke to the saddler today, I ride him in a wintec she said 'its not made to measure but it fits fine for everyday use' she also pointed out that as he is slightly short backed treeless may not be the way to go as they sit slightly further back.
I love my horse i really do hes so lovely, I just wish he could tell me what im doing.
The first time i rode him a couple of days after he arrived -i lunged him first- he went like a dream, we did walk and trot no problem and he felt totally relaxed. Then the next day I stupidly got cocky and took him down to the school and just hopped on and he hollowed out, in hindsight that should have been enough to tell me to get off but i didnt...I got thrown off!
It's funny the other day I was free-schooling him (i dont tend to do this much anymore as he favours one rein and i like to make sure he works evenly) with my RI there. As soon as I asked him to change direction he bucked, he did this alot and every buck was pointed in my direction! Not at all close and he doesnt kick, it was just like he was protesting my authority :confused:
He is rather 'stubborn' with his parelli work, I can do the friendly game but the porcupine game takes patience of a saint and driving game he just walks off (dragging rope and me- rope burn!)
Sorry for huuuge post, I think it just helps to moan! :(

[No_Angel]

How short backed is he? Any pictures?

I have used treeless saddles on a 12hh welsh a and a 13hh short backed show pony type, it is finding the right saddle for the horse and rider combo, not just plonking on a barefoot cheyanne and saying treeless saddles don't work (sorry, pet hate of mine).

What do you lead him in when he drags you?
Shay does this with me, he used to be awful to lead anywhere, but now hes a lot better, I can even lead him in a leather headcollar sometimes now, but as I have carpal tunnel in my wrist, I don't have the strength to hold on to him and stop his feet when he legs it, not even in a rope halter, so I use a be nice halter, and it really makes a difference to my ability to stop him when I ask, which is what he needs, otherwise he walks all over me (Shay is very stalliony in behavior)

[Afellpony]

Surely, if the saddle is treeless, then, inspite of using 'a saddle' your weight is directly on the horse's spine, is it not? May be someone could enlighten me.:eek:

[No_Angel]

No its not on the spine. There has been a lot of posts on this, but basically, for saddles without panels, a special pad is used to create a gullet under the saddle which gives spine clearance, for saddles with panels, the panels create spine clearance, as a treed saddle would,

[Brodies_Girl]

Brodie acts stallion like too (I have even checked underneath!) He leads fine now in his parelli rope halter and a 'normal' one, will go anywhere i ask- even very good at the squeeze game.
Just with the driving game he takes one look at me and it's like 'yeah right' and just goes off, if i try to go with him he goes faster, if i ask him come back he just pulls! Makes me really think he doesn't like me...yet he's such a sweety in every other aspect.

He's not out of proportion short-backed im afraid I dont have any pics as im on the computer at work and my home one isnt working. He's Cleveland Bay X (not sure what but hes chunky!) so i suppose only as short as CB's tend to be!

Just now I do 3 Parelli sessions a week (20mins max) and 3 lunging or longreining sessions with loose-ish side reins to try and encourage him to use his back end. He goes for a walk at the weekend, I try to get someone to sit on him for this as he is quite well behaved and it helps to develop back muscle.

[Brodies_Girl]

http://www.clevelandbay.com/charming%20boy2.jpg

He looks quite like that one but with white bits hence he's a cross.

[No_Angel]

that horse doesn't look that short backed, how big is your boy? what size treed saddle doe she wear now?

[Brodies_Girl]

He's 16hh and he has a 18'' wide fitting wintec 500

[No_Angel]

if he takes an 18 inch saddle that is no where near short backed! you could have any treeless saddle you wanted with a back that can take a 18 inch saddle:)

[MelanieD]

My coblet is short backed and can take maximum 17" treed saddle, she's fine treeless. 18" saddle isn't short backed.

Is there another saddler you could get a second opinion on fit from? Calling a horse that takes an 18" saddle short backed and saying things like the 'fits fine for everyday use' comment makes me wonder how good a saddler he is...

[lor]

This is the sort of comment you make and wish you hadnt:eek:.
I have an ickle po 13.1, which are much harder to stay on coz they are quick, have no withers and no shoulders as such.
I have a freeform treeless saddle and i have never felt more secure.

I do however acknowledge that for certain types of riding, ie forward seat lots of galloping I do feel that a treed saddle is better, in that one is not supposed to ride in a two point position in a treeless saddle for any length of time. I have a treed 'saddle company' saddle that does the job.

I'm afraid its trial and error. If you can put yourself through trialing different decent treeless saddles you may just find one that your very handsome! boy likes.

Good luck. I spent quite a while dithering about treed v treeless and my pony likes both. Dont rule anything out and find out what suits you and your horse.
:D

[Brodies_Girl]

Took him down to the school last night with his bitless bridle on with his bitted one over the top (no reins on it but with side reins crossed over his neck and clipped onto the bit as a safety precaution) I walked him around for a bit in hand, lots of tight circles to get him stepping under himself a bit, some friendly and porcupine game them a unclipped the reis from the bitless and let him have a nose about, free-schooled a bit of trot and he was ok, he turned nicely when asked most times, it seems that he only protests if hes rushing round like a loony! Perhaps hes just excited and wants to do his own thing?! :confused:
Anyway after about 10 mins of him being a real sweetie in the school with me my friend came and got on him. I told him just to keep it calm and steady as he was only steering/slowing with the bitless. He walked around the school really nicley so my friend decided he felty brave and had a short trot (just one long side of the school) Brodie went really nicely into it then started to rush a bit but walked again when asked and then stood nicely to dismount.
I was like a proud parent!
He is nowhere near fixed but its promising.
I think i will incorporate this one session into his weekly schedule...maybe i'll even get on him at some point :eek:
As for the saddle, I think in the new year I may see if I can try some out. Can anyone recommend any good ones that would do a trial?