The Thoroughbred at grass

[*Sez*]

My OH had his first interview in eight months last week, and got turned down, so we're all a bit depressed over here. I've still had no interest from potential sharers and loaners, and yesterday I was so despondent that I decided to put Salsa up for sale. :( Then I went to see him, and decided there was still a bit of fight left in me. So he's being turned away.

I have never kept a horse out 24/7 and this afternoon I'm going to see Salsa's holiday home. I have to admit that the idea of keeping him out over winter is a little bit terrifying, and I wish I hadn't bothered getting him clipped now :rolleyes: . I also need to go and see my current yard owner and explain my situation and that Sal will be going away for a little while and see if we can come to an arrangement for me to pay off what I owe her and find out whether she thinks it will be possible for me to get another stable there when we're ready to come back and bring Salsa back into work.

I want to ensure that he stays warm enough, as his weight has a tendancy to yo-yo up and down over winter, and with being out all the time, he won't be getting any hay to supplement him unless it snows and they can't get to the grass.

He has two heavy weight rugs with full necks, but I'm not sure as to whether it would be better for him to have a MW on during the day and then the HW at night - the temperature here is currently dropping from about 3 degrees in the day to -5 at night, so I want to make sure he feels the benefit of the heavier rug, but I'm torn as to whether he would be better off in the HW all day as well (depending on temperatures), considering how toasty those rugs get after a few hours of body-heat. I wouldn't want to whip off a nice warm rug to chuck on a cold rug that he then has to warm up in freezing weather.

I'm to-ing and fro-ing over having his shoes off. I have previously spoken to my farrier about it, and in his opinion, Sal is better off with his shoes on and I have to agree. He lost a shoe last week, and is currently very lame while waiting for the shoe to be replaced. When he had his back shoes off for several months, he was never 100% sound. Ideally, I'd like some hoof-boots for him for part of the day, but we just don't have that kind of money to spend. Even on eBay, they're more than we can afford. So I'm a bit stuck, to be honest - Do I just spend the money to keep him sound, or have them off on the idea that his feet will just HAVE to toughen up?

He's going to have to be booted, as he's renouned for catching his legs with his own feet and damaging himself during turnout. How long is it safe to leave boots on for? His legs will obviously need time without the boots on, but it's not as easy as it is when he's stabled - boots on during the day and off at night. How do I decide whether he is more likely to be injured during the day or at night?

Is there anything else I haven't taken into consideration about turning him away? :confused:

[Montana]

I think it's a good option. A lot of top competition horses live out all winter, and it does them no harm.

My horse lives out 24/7, he's and Arab/American paint (both breeds used to warmer climates!), and he does great on it.

The best bit - his turnout companion is my friend's TB mare. And she does great on it too.

They both keep the same rug on day and night, her mare has a HW with a high neck.

If you were to go down the barefoot route, wouldn't that solve the issue with him injuring himself to a large extent anyway? If he doesn't have shoes on, he's much less likely to need boots.

Monty's now barefoot, has been since July. It's not the easiest decision, or the easiest thing to manage, but I'm so happy I took the decision, he used to have horrific feet, now they're great.

Of course, it's a bit tough to watch them initially footy on gravel etc, but as long as you're careful not to overdo things, and to learn how to manage the feet effectively, it sounds like it could be a good idea. My other friend's TBx Hanovarian has been barefoot for 2 months, and has fantastic feet, hasn't slowed him down one bit:)

Monty needs front boots to do gravel and uneven surfaces ridden for now, but other than that is just fine without shoes, and is pretty much back to doing as much work as he was when we pulled the shoes, more in fact, because every summer for the past 3, he's not had enough hoof to hold a shoe, and has been hopping lame. Now he's got the makings of really good feet.

I'd recommend an EP or similar though, if you do decide to go down that route and your farrier is resistant to the idea. I would have stuck with my farrier to trim if he'd been willing, but he wasn't. Shame - he had 4-5 years to try to get Monty's feet good, and never realised that all he needed to do was stop shoeing him:D. Don't dive into it though, think about removing just the back first, and make sure you now how to condition his feet so he stays comfortable through the whole process.

I might worry a bit about him having no access to hay though. The grass that's around now really won't hold much nutritional value any more since we've had so much frost. Is there no way they can have hay in the field?

[Roofio]

^^ what montana said!

I would stick to one rug - which one i don't know but i wouldn't bother faffing with changing them at night. he'll be able to move around so will be able to keep himself warmer than if he was stabled - i also echo what montana said about food though - i know that J is always warmer when they've got plenty of food regardless of what rugs he's wearing.

If he really drops weight you can go for the heavier rug or double up, or feed him something like fibrebeet - it turned J into a fatty very quickly and doesn't need alot or cost much!

I would try him without his shoes, slowly and with an EP or very very good farrier. If he's not having to come in across yards or gravel or concrete or anything and the ground is softer i think it would be the best time to try it. J was similarly hopping when losing shoes but now is 100% on sand and soft surfaces and about 90% on concrete/gravel and his shoes came off in august. well the one front did, then the other front, then the hinds - was a cautious approach but has worked brilliantly and kept me sane at the same time!

[*Sez*]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think I will have to discuss the shoes with my farrier. Sal is a real fairy when it comes to his feet, but I don't see the point in him being shod all round at a cost of £50 every seven weeks when he is out in a field all day, with a couple of hours on hard-standing on an evening while I have a fuss and feed him. Ideally, I'd just have them off, but if he becomes bruised and lame, I'll have nowhere to put him if he needs box rest.

Hay may be a bit of a sticking point. To be honest, I had assumed that there would be a pile of hay out for each horse, and maybe a few extra, so that they could all get to it without fighting. However, not having had a horse out over winter before, I accepted the land owner's experience and decision that she doesn't give hers anything extra when in the field unless it's snowing. I can't imagine she will want the extra cost of giving hers hay for the sake of me and mine, but I can't afford to start putting out enough hay for four horses that are not mine to stop them fighting over what I want Salsa to have.
So, it may be a case that I store a bale somewhere and give Sal a binful of hay when I catch him on an evening, and just keep a close eye on his weight. I'll have to discuss it when we go up in an hour or so.
I think this might end up simply being that beggers can't be choosers.

[Roofio]

i honestly thought J would keel over in a big heap without his shoes - i only went for it in the end cos there wasn't enough hoof to shoe onto. he did need boots and pads initially but i guess it could have worked without them, but would just have taken longer. if i were you i think i'd take his backs off first and see how he copes.

This is the state his foot was in before his first EP trim
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Roofio24/DSC00033.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Roofio24/DSC00030.jpg

And on 11th November and going out bootless
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n248/Roofio24/DSC00253.jpg

IMO the initial discomfort is worth it so long as he and you find it manageable.

[Montana]

Roofio, I hadn't seen the new photos - they look fantastic!

Sez - To be honest, I would think that if you were to get Salsa in for a couple of hours a day, and let him have hay, especially if you might be able to do that in two sessions, he'd probably do fine. It's not ideal, but as you say, needs must. And it's not as though you're planning on doing it, then not checking him for a week:D If he starts to show signs of struggling on it, then you'll doo something about it:).

If you take shoes off, gravel is the biggest problem. Hardstanding/field you should be ok:).

[*Sez*]

It was much bigger than I realised - currently five horses over sixteen acres. The grass actually looks really good, considering how horrible the weather has been, but there's space for me to get a bale of hay in and give him ad lib hay while I'm there. I was also assured that as soon as the grass starts looking awful, hay goes out in the field, so I assume I'll just pay a cut of whatever the hay costs.
There's a few large stables, one of which I will be taking over to store my rug chest and feed bins, and to tie up for grooming, feeding, etc. I forgot to ask what her worming routine is and what she is currently worming with. Since her Welsh D spends the summers on Salsa's current yard, I imagine they are probably on the same routine and wormer that Sal is currently on anyway.

The owner was really nice - she has her Thoroughbred mare, Welsh D gelding and two foals out at the moment, and one other livery has a mare who is turned out with them. There's another mare who is currently on long-term box rest after an injury. I think our current intention (bearing in mind that things may change once we've been doing it for a week or two!) is to go up once a day, on the evening, to feed him, check his feet, etc. One of the other liveries is there twice a day every day, and if she can't be there the YO goes up, so it's not like he wouldn't get checked regularly morning and evening. I was told if for whatever reason we couldn't be there (holiday, illness, etc) then I am welcome to give one of them a call and someone will check and feed his lordship for me.

So the plan is that Sal is seeing the farrier on Friday (backs are coming off for now), and if he is sound, I'll ride him up to the new yard. The YO wants to have a "test turnout" with the other horses and see how things go. I think she's just keen to be there, as she is a bit worried about what her settled group will make of a strange horse (and they don't come much stranger than my daft lump). All being well, we'll move my stuff up over the weekend.

I went to see our current YO tonight to let her know we've been having problems and that I was planning to turn Sal away, and she was fine with it. She will try to get us a stable sorted out when we decide to come back.

Also mentioned to a friend that I was after an under-rug for really nasty weather, and she thinks she has one that will fit Salsa in her tack room that she's never used :D So I've saved myself thirty quid as well!

[H & Bailey]

My Tb mare always faired alot better when i went from a stabled horse to 24/7 living.in the stable she would box walk etc.I made sure she did have access to a big shelter in case she wanted to go in,had a good thick rug on and when i wasnt riding ie pregnant ...no shoes,lady is a horse that is a drama queen if she has a shoe off she acts like her leg has been chopped off.It took her a while for her feet to toughen up to barefoot but they did and she became sound in the field but i couldnt have taken her onto the road or gravel.when i did come to re shoeing her the smithy said the difference in condition of her hoof was amazing .Im sure if i had kept her i would have tried to stick it out and used hoof boots, as she was a pain in the bum for pulling shoes off.you may find that if he goes barefoot you may not need to boot him up as he wont have the shoes to cut himself on or do damage with,what does the other lady do with hers?
I wouldnt worry about that hay if he is on such a big piece of land as long as you can go and give him a good fibre feed with his vitand minerals in he should be ok ,give him a good scoop of speedi beet for extra warmth if he drops some weight. you may find he does so well up there that you dont want to move back to stables!good luck

[*Sez*]

Well, we're all set to go at the end of the week. It's exciting in a scary kind of way!

All the other horses are barefoot, so I've agreed with the YO to remove his hind shoes, at least temporarily until he has settled in. Sal plays like a baby and he plays rough, so I would hate for him to harm one of the foalies or youngsters with his shoes. If he can stay sound on them, I'll keep them off - as some of you have said, it will mean he won't need booting to protect his own legs from the shoes. He was field sound with just the fronts on over the Spring, but not completely sound and balanced when ridden or walked over gravel (there's a lot of gravel at our current yard - not a problem at the new place), so he should be fine. It's the fronts that we tend to have real problems with.


I always have his rugs off for a while every day, as I like him to be lightly groomed - I was always taught that a light groom is important for the circulation and promotion of warmth, although too thorough a groom will remove too much natural grease for waterproofing and warmth. It's also a good opportunity to check for injury or anything out of the ordinary, which is an important part of the day for Salsa!

At the moment, he's on two feeds a day, Alfa A oil, a large scoop of speedi beet and Calm and Condition, and Pink Powder. My intention is to cut the C&C down to the "resting" levels, and increase the rest to keep his fibre intake up and see how he goes. We spend most winters playing with the amount of feed he gets depending on how he manages his weight, so I expect this will be no different. The bonus is that he's already a bit on the rotund side, so we're at least starting off with a horse that is a good weight and I will notice quickly if he starts to drop. I think if his condition was as poor as it was last year, I would be more reluctant to turn him away.

I've been informed that I have to go and start clearing out the loft (there's loads of my ex-husband's stuff up there still and things that I could probably do with throwing away) since I'm planning to bring masses of stuff home from the yard, so I'd better get on with it!

[Montana]

Maybe you'll find something up there worth e-baying, pay a few weeks field rent?!:D

Good luck with it all, I'm sure it'll go well.

[Sexy Sietske]

My TB is having some time off at the moment, he is turned out with 3 others and gets hay and feed twice a day and is maintaining his weight, if not put a little on!! He came to me with one shoe on and crap feet, then I had his fronts on as I was still riding and he hacked out over concrete and gravel just fine! He is now completely shoeless and hobbled around for a couple of days until he realised I have no sympathy and its time he quit being a puff cz he is not a racer anymore...he is a real horse! :p

At least you have hard standing though!! At the minute we dont even have that but we are having some stables built very very soon so as long as you have somewhere for vet/farrier/ect to see to him and a stable for emergancies he should be fine! Let us know how you get on with the move :)