Time to start a young horse?

[Crystal Fire]

If you do this for a living, or if you were sending a youngster to someone you trust - how long would you expect to get a reasonably handled youngster backed and gently hacking out? I've been rather surprised recently at the quotes some people are getting.

[Stormin]

If you do this for a living, or if you were sending a youngster to someone you trust - how long would you expect to get a reasonably handled youngster backed and gently hacking out? I've been rather surprised recently at the quotes some people are getting.

When I had mine in training, the trainer also took youngsters for "breaking".
I think he generally counted minimum 2 months (allowing for playing on the ground and then getting on and "working" in a school.) Maybe add to that a month to be safe enough to hack out ?
I know alot depends on the youngster and it's learning capacities (I knew one who took a month to accept the saddle alone !!)

[Crystal Fire]

2 months??? Maybe another month on top?? Wow, that sounds like a very long time to me. I appreciate some horses might have issues, and they would take longer, but I'd have thought more like 3-4 Weeks for a normal handled youngster. :confused:

[Mehitabel]

it's a bit of a piece of string question - owners' ideas of reasonably handled are not always the same as the backer's! also it takes time for muscles to build up to be physically able to carry a rider for up to an hour, and to be strong enough to trot and canter for more than a few strides.

the standard i've seen people say is normally 6 weeks for walk, trot and canter - that makes for a very intensive process and the horse normally needs a break afterwards to assimilate things. also that assumes a reasonably bright horse - the thick ones take longer! i prefer to do it more slowly - so i will typically take 3-4 months to get to that stage, in an ideal situation.

also it depends what you mean by 'backed and hacking out'. i normally go out up the lane on the leadrein the second or third time i get on - so that could be very quick indeed if that is what you mean. if you mean an hour's hack in all three paces and reasonably confident about behaving in varied circumstances, then it takes a fair while longer.

[pineapple]

if the horse is well handled before hand then for basic walk trot canter and hacking out then about a month or 2....

broke a fresian a few months ago and took 2 weeks to get to this stage but he was very well hadled an quiet.... a more nervous horse could take about 2 months to get to the same stage.

[Tots N Dots]

if you were sending a youngster to someone you trust - how long would you expect to get a reasonably handled youngster backed and gently hacking out? I've been rather surprised recently at the quotes some people are getting.
Pickle although handled, hadnt really done anything other than lead out on the roads.
he had been longlined for about 5 minutes in a dually halter and had been sat on for about 3 minutes once, this was in the February at a Monty Roberts demo, he had never had a bit in, but was used to feet picked out etc.
He went to a lady I had on very good recommendation and who I trusted in the July, Holiday off here.
he was with her 6 weeks and I would have classed him as backed and ridden away, he didnt go out on the roads with her as the tarmac round her isnt good and he wasnt shod.
but in the menage we were happy in walk trot and canter.
Holiday and I did a week by week chronicle of Pickle being broken in on here.
Pickle at Holiday's week one (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86602)
Pickle at Holiday's week 2 (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87239)
Pickle at Holiday's week 3 (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88010)
Pickle at Holiday's week 4 (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88587)
Pickle at Holiday's week 5 and 6 (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89937)

I was very impressed with the way Holiday delt with Pickle and would happily send any horse to her again :D
(I am just in the process of redoing the photo links in the threads as i have just realised they dont work any more ;))

[maverick927]

Depends on the horse.

I broke my horse a week before she turned 3 (by birth). She's a big substantial horse with plenty of muscle so no bother carrying me. She was also exceedingly well handled and I decided she was ready to be broken in when she continually hung over the paddock gate watching the others being ridden in the paddock.

It took 10 days to break her, walk, trot, canter and hacking down the lane.

Gave her a month in the field, then brought her back into work, worked away and 6 days later she looked like this. And she's never seen a training aid.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/maverick927/hotcanter.jpg


But she truely isn't like most horses. The first time I took her on the road she was 3 and a half, and nothing bothered her in the slightest. She now hacks out with my sister's nervous 5 year old. She's his rock!

Otherwise, when I was in Australia, my boss broke in a well handled 3 year old in three weeks, but the unhandled 3 year old he was sent took more than 4 months as he took almost 2 months of ground work for him to be ready to be worked.

[fjordlady]

I agree with alot of the comments which have gone before. The breaking and backing is really down to how much the horse has been handled/seen off the ground, temprament and maturity.

Hacking out sensibly can take a whole lot longer, and some horses are never become sensible ;). The youngester needs to be exposed to different experiences and this is where the trust that you build on the ground, your riding ability and his temprament plays a very big part.

Our fjord was being ridden within 3 weeks of starting the process (she is such a good girl :D). That was back in September. However, as she is still only 3.5 years and we have a hill farm her work is restricted to mainly walking as she needs to develop. I ride her on average 3 times per week and its all hacking out. Sometimes we go alone and other times with may daughter and her pony. She is happy to go first or last and the 11 year old pony can be far more of a handful than her! I am in no rush to push her through the 3 paces as I intend to keep her.

I think most trainers quote 6 weeks but please do not expect a 'made' horse after this time because its all down to experience and maturity.

Good luck

[lachlanandmarcu]

3-6 weeks for seen it done it a few times in a breaking yard - 'backed and ridden away' is about right

3-6 months for actually taking things step by step and truly being cool with it, unless the horse is v unusual. Ive taken a year with mine, because Im planning on having her for 30-40 years so a year is nothing in comparison, and she hadnt been lunged or anything when I got her, and was only 3.5 years so didnt want to be riding her too much.

By taking it slowly, when we encounter stuff you cant teach her about, she looks to you for confidence, and will not panic or freak at it (does a lot of poos tho so I can tell how stressed but still behaving she is - 4 poo ride the other day!):D

[Crystal Fire]

I think most trainers quote 6 weeks but please do not expect a 'made' horse after this time because its all down to experience and maturity.

Good luck
Was that for me? If it was no worries, I'm not expecting anything as I'm not sending a horse away, I would back my own.

It's going to be a difficult question isn't it, as it's obvious that people's definition of backed and gently hacking out must vary considerably!
If I had a 4 year old to start then I personally wouldn't be planning a lot of cantering at all. That comes after they have built their muscles up with the hacking and baby school work. And hacking out gently would probably mean with another horse, it doesn't mean 100% bombproof for hours and fine in heavy traffic.
For sure if you're doing the job yourself, like lachalananmarcu, then you might take your time over months, but surely you wouldn't leave your youngster with a professional for up to 6 months?
Mehitabel - do you start horses professionally? Do you find that people are happy to pay for you to have them for 3-4 months?
We have a guy up the road who is very good, he would allow about 3 weeks for basic backing and riding out, with good ground handling, farrier work, loading etc. Within about 6 weeks then the horse would be doing more schooling and he would be starting to ask for some elevation.
I have spent a lot of time in Australia learning about young horse starting, and the trainer I was with there would be riding in the arena on about the second or third session (previous is grounwork), and riding out in the scrub by the fourth or fifth. Not pushing them hard about cantering or anything though, just getting them confident, responsive and brave.
The last two horses I started were my own, so there was no time pressure. One was really easy and we were out for a tiny "hackette" in the woods next to the yard on her second ride. :)

[Mehitabel]

i used to do it professionally - i ride for a stud so i did all our homebreds, and we'd have them in to do from other people as well. the 3-4 months is assuming they'e done no lungeing or longreining - for me that is from the start of the 'now i am going to start backing this horse' to having it cantering 'reasonably' and out for about an hour.
i mainly specialised in rehab jobs from other people - normally ones who'd been spoiled by the last person to back them - so with that people do tend to be more wiling to take as long as it takes if the horse has to either get over a fright or learn some manners if it's been running amok.

with straightforward ponies they tended to have done a lot of the groundwork with their owners; so that i'd only need to do a week or so of lungeing etc to get to know their buttons and how they react to things before i felt safe to hop on, so that shortens it a fair bit.

also i would inolve the owners as much as possible, so they'd come as often as they could to watch and be involved, so they could see i wasn't just piddling about.

once i am on, then yes, 3 weeks is fine for backing and hacking in walk and trot - but getting them to the stage where you can get on is what takes the time, it's so important not to miss any steps in the foundation, and also doing fittening work so that once you're on you can crack on a bit faster.

[Crystal Fire]

Thanks, that's interesting. I know I am coming from a slightly different and rather "NH" angle, but the actual getting on seemed to come very easily after the right groundwork foundation. Although I have to say that foundation could be in place very quickly, maybe within the first couple of work sessions. Then the fittening came next, by just riding out at a walk, walk, walk and asking the horse to use themselves well.
I'm just a bit horrified at what I've been hearing from some people recently. I was amazed that someone was quoted 15 weeks to get a young horse backed and riding away - and that wasn't 100% traffic and riding out or anything. I know someone else who sent a horse for re-backing and spent thousands, leaving the mare with the trainer for some months, and the horse came home still saddle-shy and awkward about having the feet picked up. The owner kept trying to visit to be taught about what was going on, but half the time the trainer wasn't there!
I suppose IF I sent a youngster away I wouldn't expect the finished product back, but to have just the basic foundation there for me to build on.

[redcomet]

I've heard too many bad stories of horses being sent off to be broken and i personally coldnt send my baby away to strangers, away from his home. I want his breaking to be done by people he knows and trusts and in his home so a friend will be doing he actually backing and the ground work by myself.
He has already been bitted and had a v lightweight synthetic saddle put on his back and the girth done up (hes about 18 months)and i do this about once a month so he will be used to it completely when the time comes. He is completely ok with this and doesnt even bat an eyelid!

[Spoof]

I've worked with some great young horses, most have taken between five and fifteen weeks to get a good solid foundation. It makes a difference on how much they have been handled, and trust people. :)

My current guy was sent away at 3 years for 30 days by the previous owner. Not touched again until I got him at 5, and it has taken me 13 months to work with what was done at that trainer, and we are barely walking under saddle. (But we are walking, not bucking/rearing/biting/bolting/etc.)

It is a good question. If I were sending a horse away I would probably visit the trainer and see how they work their horses. Most have several they are working with, so you can see a lot during a day trip. :)

[Mehitabel]

Thanks, that's interesting. I know I am coming from a slightly different and rather "NH" angle, but the actual getting on seemed to come very easily after the right groundwork foundation. Although I have to say that foundation could be in place very quickly, maybe within the first couple of work sessions. Then the fittening came next, by just riding out at a walk, walk, walk and asking the horse to use themselves well.


yes, once the groundwork is in place everything does fall into place very fast. our homebred ponies who we've had all their lives, it's really more 'getting on' than 'breaking in'. often we've done it when we couldn't be bothered to walk home from a field, or just hopped on when we've felt the time was right. but with someone else's horse you can't assume they've understood after 2 sessions - you haven't known them since birth, you don't know how fast they pick things up, or if they'll have forgotten the lesson if they have a day off, etc.

also you have to make sure they will retain the lesson with someone else handling them - possibly someone less skilled or a child, so you do need to take the time to make extra sure. what i liked to do where possible was have the owner come and do each 'step' once i thought we were solid on it, and that showed up any gaps in either the horse's training or the owner's knowledge so we could rectify each as we went along.

it's one thing making sure something is solid in a school with no distractions after two sessions, but you need to be sure that on a windy hack, when it's bin day and the terrifying bins are lining the road, or after 3 days off, or alone, or in a big group, that those lessons really are set in stone. and i don't think that is possible in a couple of sessions - you simply can't be sure that in every circumstance the lesson will stick.

also on a practical level i tended to work more with small ponies, being short myself, and was often nearer the top end of their weight limits, so we had to do more fittening work inhand before getting on than we would with a big horse who would barely notice me on top anyway.

my view is that it's such an important time in a young horse's life. it sets up their attitude to what they are going to be doing for the next 20-30 years, and if it's rushed and they don't understand and get frightened, then they've got a miserable life ahead of them associating work with fear or frustration. not to mention that a 'stroppy' or resentful horse is going to find it harder to find good homes if it needs rehoming, and the whole quality of its life is affected.

for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds extra in livery, i think it's worth taking the time to make sure that everything is 100% solid and that you're not overfacing them.

[inhs]

Depends where they start from.

if you get a quiet young horse who's used to people, can pick up feet, doesnt mind things flapping around, relaxed, laid back, well handled (basically everythingbar getting up) a spot of groundwork (longlining or NH lateral & feel stuff) and Bobs your uncle I'd say quiet quickly, and you're ready to hop on and do a bit of riding fo a few weeks. You'd get back a green ridden horse, but one who understands, walk/trot/canter/jump/hack in company.

'Making' a young horse always takes time.. you do the basic handling, you do the basic riding at 4 or 5 in my case :) then the next two years traditionally where I come from you 'mind' your horse, introduce him to new things. show him hounds, school over ditches, then at about 7 or 8 years, you offically have a 'made' horse anyone can ride, who has no quirks / issues at all, and is a brilliant hunter / all rounder. Then you sell them to the UK :)

A friend of mine up in Dublin buys horses, starts them, then sells them on. Most of the time they go really well for him... when he's buys them, he tries to buy fairly nice relaxed, well handled or not all all handled horses (rather than the ones someones made a mess of before)

He can turn these around quite quickly (maybe hacking and one jump afte 2 weeks - but still always depends on the individual horses progress and horse, not on his time) and starting with a nice well perpared youngster is a HUGE advantage and saves A LOT of time.

Then you have me who bought a 'just broken' *cough* 5 yo who was a (lovely) disaster area, scared of people, I couldnt put halter on in stable and took 3 hours to catch, scared of his shadow, literally could only lead (if you got halter on), and enough of a mess had been made of him to take me 3 monoths of daily work to get him to be able to pick up all 4 feet nicely.

He took 2 months of two or more short lessons every day to even think about showing him a saddle or numnah.

I am very wary of sending hroses away. I'm lucky that I know locally of some horse people who I've seen work, train & ride horses, so I know how they do things, and I'd recommend them, but I reckon for every good horse trainer, who will deliver you back a nice green but quiet happy horse, there must be about 5 or more who make a dogs dinner of it.

[AengusOg]

When a horse arrives at the trainer's yard, both owner and trainer will have expectations as to how long the job is likely to take. The owner will return home to eagerly await the date when the youngster should come home, hopefully all they expect it to be. This may put the trainer in a position where he/she may feel they have to produce the goods within the time scale, even if the horse is not really at the stage where this can be achieved easily.

With some young horses, sent away for training, complications may arise through such things as the change of yard/handlers/routine, eruption of teeth, coming into season, to name a few, and so the original plans may go out the window. In such circumstances a good trainer will consider the horse and contact the owner to discuss a new arrangement. However, the trainer may feel they have to push on regardless in order to fulfill the original promise to have the horse ready in the agreed time. This may actually cause more problems and put undue pressure on the young horse.

On the other hand, if the youngster is kept at home and started either by its owner, or by a visiting trainer, or a combination of the two, the horse's training can be more in keeping with its individual capabilities and requirements.

I can't say that either way is better as I depend on owners asking me to start their youngsters for part of my living; that's convenient for me and for the owners. However, the young horse and its wellbeing has to be the main consideration; I do believe (and in some cases advise) that some horses would be more suited to being started at home, by their owners, with help from a trainer visiting them at home.

I have heard of some horses being returned to their owners no better than when they went away, and their owners being advised that the horse would never be this or that as they were considered unsuitable by the trainer. I know of quite a few horses who, when given some more time and brought on at a pace which suits them as individuals, have gone on to be very good, reliable riding and/or driving horses.

It's worth remembering that the owner can do much to help their youngster if it has to be sent away, such as plenty of handling by different people, and exposure to all kinds of stimuli, in order to expand its mind as well as its physical experiences. That will help all to go as smoothly as possible during the training period itself, and enhance the chances of success for all concerned in the process.

It's a very difficult decision for an owner to make for their youngster, and horse trainers lead a very precarious existence when so many things depend on the horse rather than the people or the timescales involved.

Personally I would be looking at an original 'quote' of six to eight weeks to start a youngster to the point where it was lightly lunged, longreined, backed and ridden away in walk and trot. It would then be ready for further scooling, either by its owner, or by another person skilled in that area.

Whatever you decide Crystal Fire, I wish you and your horse good luck.

[varkie]

I think often where quotes above 6 weeks are given, it is because the horse in question is also being lunged or long reined.

I agree with others, once you are on board, the riding follows on really quickly - certainly ours are trotting within a week of the rider getting on board, and within a couple of weeks are going solo round school doing simple large turns. Within several weeks, hacking out quietly in company. Canter usually follows within a week or two of starting hacking - it happens when the time & the horse are right. We prefer to start ours cantering on a quiet hack, rather than in a school.

For me however, many NH trainers worry me, especially when they start a horse so fast. Yes, it can be done, but I think we have to ask whether it should be? If a horse has done no more than basic in hand work, in my personal opinion, it is not fit enough to carry a rider. And this is where I think many NH trainers are getting it wrong. I think a horse needs to work on building up muscle over it's back before being asked to carry the weight of a rider - whether this be through lungeing, long reining, or proper schooling in hand, or hacking out inhand.

I would rather that someone had a horse of mine for 6-8 weeks to back it, and did it when horse was fit enough, than did it in 3-4 weeks, and did no pre riding fittening work.

[AengusOg]

sorry Mehitabel...........I inadvertantly quoted your reply in my reply, (perhaps you hadn't noticed). Have fixed it now. :)

[inhs]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd written a really long reply, pressed the wrong button and deleted it!! :)

Anhway, here's the short version!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Its in reply to varkies worry that with some NH trainers starting horses quite quickly and without longlining or lunging, the horse wont have sufficient back muscles to carry riders weight.

BACK MUSCLES

I was down helping out a young horse and its rider at a livery yard in kildare before christmas, both who used to pull all the time on the reins, and rider had sore hands & back and horse pulled like a train too. So I was helping both to retrain to stop doing this, using a little groundwork, and it was all going well.

I dont know what I had been described as to yard owner, but he came over after we'd finished, and we got chatting. he mentioned that he didnt really like that monty stuff young horse demo stuff, where they move them around a bit, and then jump up, without any longlining and lunging - what about horses back muscles, surely they wouldn't be developed enough to carry riders weight? (tho if you go on courses they teach you lots of longlining, so maybe the demo in queetion wasn't really a good example of the IH thing, whatever about the monty style of training) Anyway, I just said 'hmm' and said I wouldnt do it that way myself, and filed the point to the back of my head for further thought, particularly in light of my new 5 yo who I was just starting myself - using NH:)

LUNGING

A while later, I was back up in the same yard for a one day NH clinic - basically goundwork and some chats with about 15 people, most were experienced horses owners & trainers, and very few which had done any NH before. I try not to teach NH, but just teach good horsemanship practises. I dont just follow things blindly and I'd be fairly rooted in the tradtional good horsemanshp practises I'd be brought up with. Anyway, at these things, I prefer as much as possible, not just to tell people stuff. I like to give people topies.. how woud you.... etc, and then let them think about stuff and come up with ideas fand think up of new things themselves.

Anyway, we were going well, and as it was a fairly advanced group, one of the tasks I gave some peple was to discuess for 5 minutes together, then present to everyone the best way to start a young horse. Nothing like a challenge!! :) To cut whats turning into a very long story short, the upshot is that most people there, some who were professionals, riding instructors, owners, etc said they wouldn't lunge a young horse any more, as from the studies they've see and what they've learnt from their experience, its too much presure and stress on young growing bones. I think so too, so thats why I never lunged my young horse.

LONGLINING

Next up was longlining. My family would have always longlined a young horse they were starting - two reasons:

1. Build up muscle for riding.
2. Teach aids - walk on, trot, stop, turn, backup.

Because I do more in hand groundwork, I teach the aids (walk on, trot, stop, back up, and lateral stuff) just with me beside the horse. It works fine, my little horse has the lightest mouth and you could ride him with two piece of string now, and can sidepass, and do fore and hindq yields from the first day I sat up in the sadde.

BULDING UP BACK MUSCLE

But we come back to this idea of back muscle - if we need to build it up for riding, I'd probably for the reasons give above probably do this with longlining. But I was thinking about my little horse, and I realised, in my situation anyway, I didnt need to. He had actually done it himself during the first 3 months I owned him. When he came he (unusually for a horse about to be broken I hope) came straight from the sales, and was a skinny, bony, horse with not a lot of muscle. And you're right, I probably wouldn't have jumped up on him then and there. He needed grass and a good field to live in for a while.

Physically 2 months later... he was a different horse. Built up muscle throughout, put on condition, and looked realy healthy and full of life. Did I longline him? Nope. I left him outside in a field for 2 months and he ate and exercised himself back to a great condition and developed his own muscles, all over his body, back included. If I had stabled him for those 2 months (mar & april) I dont think he would have had half as much muscle built up. Even things like a horse eating off the ground (grass) will help to build up his back muscles. (Feeding stabled horses in a hay net won't.)

I also had to spend those 2 months training him on ground - just basic stuff - as last owner had messed him up a bit. once i got through that, then I did a little NH groudwork, then started riding (no lunging or longlining), and after chicken hopping to get him used to me getting up a few times, sat up for about 20 seconds the first time, then got off.

Since then, riding sessions are still kept short and sweet (he's five, still growing) and I try to grow them slowly, so as I ask him to work a little long, his back muscles grow a little as we go a long.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyway, both varkie & the yard owner got me thinking :) so from my experiences anyway, i think if your young horse is out all the time, and is is good condition before you think about doing anything, you should be fine if up build up the riding slowly. My NH trainer out in Oz, starts horses in about 2 weeks. But he doesnt ride them a lot - most of the work is getting the horse to be happy with whats happening, to want to work with the rider, get body supple and flexabile (done on ground) and to be comfortable with everything, and then to understand the ridden cues, adn be abel to walk, trot, canter and stop when asked.

He wouldn't take him out and start showjumping or hunting or doing cross country which happens a fair bit in Ireland. When he starts a horse, and gves it back to owners, he'll advise them if they work with horse slowly for the next twelve months, they they should have a nice horse on their hands. He's done all the basic fundamentals, the horse will go stop and turn, load, be caught, has mannes, easy to lead, shoe, etc, but its up to the owners to bring on horse slowly for next 12 months, reinforce everything and bring the horse 'on'.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE REAL PROBLEM I THINK.......

There is however one BIG thing which I think I would worry about more, if someone said to me they were going to start a young horses, whether they do it traditionally, longline, or do NH. Its not the horses muscles I'd worry about if he was in ok physically condition - it's his bones which would REALLY worry me.

Too much weight for too long on a horses back, too much speed, stress or fast turns, and you can easily damange a growing horse 's (up till 6 or 7 or 8!) back bones - vertabrae - and then you have a SERIOUS veterinary problem.

So while I didn't longline or lunge my youngster, I didn't need to as he developed his own muscles from galloping/cantering/movinh around his field, but I wouldn't start a horse before he was 4, and I'd always take care of him, build up work slowly and never ask him to do to much or jump too high or much before he was 7 or so.

So any of that make any sense? :)

When I hear people start big 3 yos and I just go 'ouch' - but for their bones, not necessarily their muscles which might look fine and might be why people think they 'look ready' to be started. Developed muscles can actually work against a horse as people think they can cope with more than they can actually:(

Hunting and eventing / showjumping /competing four years old (who are started and worked hard as 3 yos) can be increasing the possibility you'll end up with a sore horse.

[inhs]

day 1 - skinny, not much muscle and fairly wild.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/inhs_photos/stand.jpg

2 months later after spring grass :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/inhs_photos/smallGrowingoutalittle.jpg

Here's oz exercising himself on his way down to see what I'm up to

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o182/inhs_photos/CopyofP1010102.jpg

.......... to answer CFs quation, if I did this for a living, or sent Oz to someone I knew was a good person to bring on a horse, and if Oz could already be easily caught, lead, groomed, feet picked up, load, didn't mind numnahs and saddles places on his back for a few seconds, liked people, easy to handle.............. I'd say with no unexpected surprises, about 2 to 3 weeks give for a normal trainer - including hacking out & bombproofing, and Brad in Oz would have him turned around in about a
week, but then he's a true pro and is in a league of his own.

[Crystal Fire]

Thank you to everyone who is wishing me luck - but I don't need it. :D I'm not planning on sending a horse away for starting, and when I do need a horse starting I do it myself. :D
This is a very interesting discussion everyone, thanks very much.
All I can say really about whether or not to build the horse up with longlining etc first... my experience has been that the trainers who may get on the horse quite early are also quite careful about how they take the horse on from there. So the horses don't get harmed in the process.
I know this is going to sound extremely fast to some of you now, bearing in mind all I've read above... but a lot of horsemen, including people like Mark Rashid, would be quite happy to be on a horse within 2 or 3 sessions - depending on how long the horse needed. That's not 2 or 3 sessions to prove any sort of point against the clock, that's just how long it takes to calmly be on the back of a horse for the first time. Then they gradually fitten and strengthen the horse, but using a combination of ridden and groundwork. So, they might have your horse for 4 weeks, but the horse would be backed within the first week (easily) and then be working on life-lessons and getting fit for the rest of the time.
I think that any trainer worth their salt will encourage the owner to be along any time they want to see what is going on, and will also insist on training the horse and owner together before sending them home.
Thanks again for those who have answered my original question, I know we all have our own ideals and ways we do things, but my real interest is in how long a paid professional trainer would be expected to take. It's also been interesting to see how much people expect the trainer to do as well.

[varkie]

All my horses live at grass 24/7, so could be said to exercise themselves. However, if breaking a youngster, I would still want to see that youngster do some form of fittening work before riding - personally I don't think living out is enough. And the way they begin to muscle after a few weeks of work would suggest that the work certainly makes them stronger, which in my mind has to be a good thing, and lead to less injuries later on.

[Kate F.]

Interesting discussion, CF - thanks for starting it!


I think that any trainer worth their salt will encourage the owner to be along any time they want to see what is going on, and will also insist on training the horse and owner together before sending them home.

I think that's a very good point - and one that is crucial to how long the whole process will take, and also where the start and end points are! I'm very wary of the "production line" trainers who start horses to a set formula as though they were programming a computer. Some horses come through it OK - but many don't and have serious problems afterwards because time wasn't taken where it was needed at the beginning.

My own experience is not representative, as most of the horses I get for starting have had previous problems or been declared "unridable", "untrainable" or similar by someone else, which is why they end up with me. The rest are mostly ones that novice riders have tried to start themselves after reading a book, and come unstuck along the way!

I won't give owners any time frame until I've had the chance to assess the horse and the future rider and discuss the rider's experience and goals. I then I try to make realisic assessment of what the partership can achieve in the time they are thinking of. The horse has to be trained to be suitable for that rider - not to conform to any arbitrary scale of performance.

I'd go with the Rashid et. al. idea that with most horses you can back them within a few sessions - but that is just sitting on and moving the feet around a bit. A few more sessions, and we'd be on walk, trot and possibly canter - just the transitions and a few strides so the horse knows it can move around with a rider on board. Where you go from there depends on the horse and the rider. If the rider wants to "get going" as soon as possible and the horse is physically mature enough - fittening can then be a priority. If it's a novice rider, you don't want the horse too fit, so I'd then spend a long time building confidence between horse and rider on the ground and sitting in the saddle, with less emphasis on fitness.

I think this should be a major consideration for anyone thinking about sending a horse to a trainer. What do I want this horse to be able to do for me, and can the trainer help us achieve that?

As a candidate for starting, I like the horse best that has not really had anything done with it before. "Good handling" would be fine if it really was good - but then if the person is good enough to prepare the horse with really good handling, why do they need to send it to me to start it? Unfortunately, "good handling" often means spoiling something rotten - and the horse is pushy, bargy and grabbing from a surfeit of treats! Sure, it hasn't had any bad experiences, but is has a misplaced view of humans as food dispensers that can be troublesome to remove, depending on how long it's been going on! :p:D

Having said that, there are of course people who do prepare the horses well, and just want a little help and support for the actual getting on for the first time and getting things moving. Then they might bring the horse to me, or I might go to them, for as many or few sessions as they feel they want. I suppose what I mean is that if the horse has been really well handled, the starting will be no big deal anyway.