How to get sharper off the leg

[MJH]

Hi
My TB is very lazy to the leg - I saw the Carl Hester demo at YHL and he made a comment about needing to use the leg less on unresponsive horses (vs being able to use the leg on sharp horses). If i back up my leg with a light tap from a stick, he gets a bit giddy and instead of going forwards starts to come back up at me. Has anyone got any ideas or exercises on how i can get him more responsive from the leg and generally more forward going?
Many Thanks in advance

[carthorse]

This may sound obvious but when you tell him to go forward are you actually letting him? It's no good your legs saying forward if your hands or position aren't! Also don't complicate it - the lesson, to begin with, is simply to go forward off your leg so don't try to keep an outline or bend or rhythm at the same time.

Sometimes making things more fun & adopting a "jolly hockeysticks" type attitude can help with lazy types. Think Pony Club games! I've been known to hoick up my stirrups & come out of a corner half out the saddle yelling "go go go!!!" - not a pretty sight but it can be effective :p. Or try getting from one point to another as fast as possible.

Lots of OTT praise for any success, control your frustration if it doesn't work.

Be very very certain that if you ask for forwards you keep out the way & allow forwards, even if it's faster than you want.

Have you had his back & saddle checked? It could be that moving forwards is uncomfortable & if that's the case nothing will improve until the discomfort is removed.

[eml]

I agree with carthorse if the horse is coming back and up I would go back to working on leg reponse on a long rein, this will also help if the horse is for any reason tense in its back.

I seen to remember your horse was a successful eventer, just check that your leg position is correct, my highly schooled ex dressage horse will often misunderstand or ignore leg aids if i don't sit in exactly the right position, can be embarrasing!!

[SouthCoast1]

I have the same problem with my horse, not very responsive to the leg and doesn't listen to a stick either - he just bucks into it and gets even more 'stuffy' and resentful! My trainer suggested I try cantering a few circuits (once I'd had a short warm up in walk) to get him moving forwards at the beginning of the session and this has really helped.

[chunky monkey]

I have noticed that chunky is not very responsive to my feet contact. If I squeeze/tap him on with the side of my foot he doesn't take any notice. I was told to use my heel more and turn the front of my foot out slightly, so that when I want him to go forward I am actually using the back of my heels. I have noticed that he is much more responsive to this.

Not sure if this helps when you are talking about the leg though.

[coyote]

My TB ex national hunt racehorse,all 16.3hh needed spurs and a schooling whip to get anywhere,even on a hack!!!:eek: he was the laziest horse ever!! Nelly on the other hand is a HW cob and he works very responsively off the leg only,no back up needed.weird eh???:confused:

[Elvengirl]

My trainer suggested I try cantering a few circuits (once I'd had a short warm up in walk) to get him moving forwards at the beginning of the session and this has really helped.

I do this with my horse as well. I usually do a brisk walk with circles to warm up for about 5-10 min and then go right into canter. I usually do lots of transitions with canter, canter to halt, canter to trot, canter to walk and so on keeping the transitions only a few strides apart. This gets him really on his toes, off his front end, and loosens up his back which is often stiff when we start.

When I first started riding this horse he was completely dull off the leg during flat-work (jumping he was a different horse haha) but I'm lazy and hate having to do a lot of leg work so I would just use a long dressage whip and tap him every time he didn't respond to the amount of leg I felt was acceptable. He's great now although I still use the canter right away because he's an older guy and the canter does REALLY loosen him up nicely and then he is ready to work and move forwards.

I also rode/rehabilitated a horse who had previously been injured (deep muscle/tissue injury in his back and also his hocks from some idiot person who didn't know how to use the pessoa properly :mad: :rolleyes: ) and even though vet gave him the ok and he had accupuncture and massage he would just buck when asked to move out and forward and buck even harder when asked with the whip. It was all just because he had a memory of pain and didn't even want to go there. I just kept being persistent and asking him to move forwards (he was especially bad in canter) when he moved forward and didn't buck, I just sat with quiet hands and let him get on with it. He figured it out and was moving better than ever after about a year, even won some ribbons at a show :)

Hope this helps. The dressage trainer I used to have would always tell people to stop doing so much work for their horse. Leg should be there but noone should be killing themselves trying to get the horse to work.

[Lora]

needed spurs and a schooling whip to get anywhere,even on a hack!!!:eek: he was the laziest horse ever!!

After a horrific meltdown on my part.. (was babbling about selling him if I couldn't learn to ride him to husband :eek:) I switched to rubber ball spurs. I'm going on week number two with these and honestly wish I had done this six months ago! I used to be anti spur.

When he's being a gentlemen, he doesn't get them used. When he's not, turn in just a tad and press in levels. I suddenly get what I want pronto.

[dressagexreo]

crops come in handy.... they get the point quickly :):)

[Dancinglite]

Spurs are not meant for forward motion.

[horses4eva888]

If the ponies in my lesson are being unresponsive we do lots of transitions (walk-halt, walk-trot, halt-trot, trot-halt etc) and plenty of circles and serpentines to keep them interested, but echo Carthorse make sure it's not your position telling him to stop.

[Fanshawe]

This is something I posted on another thread a while ago:

Warning this is complicated at first but I promise it is fab!

To start with every change of gait involves a tiny squeeze on both reins followed by both legs followed immediately by the inside leg squeeze (unless you want collected or slow gait). This may need to be a very firm squeeze initially until the horse learns what you mean and then you can make it gentle and gentler.

Then depending on the horse apply the INSIDE leg every third, fifth or seventh stride (more frequently for those who don't respond so well) that means LEG two three, LEG two three etc etc or LEg two three four five etc.

If you are doing it every third stride and the horse does not respond to your leg after the third aid then a light tap with the whip (or whip whop or reins) immediately after the leg aid. When they are going forward then reduce it to fifth/seventh even ninth.

There is a routine for when every ninth is not needed so you only apply the inside leg at 8 points in the arena which I can tell you if you are interested-all of this will also encourage self carriage. Keep a contact at first but not too much, just enough to stop the energy running out the front end. Proper contact will come later.

Also look at learning how much leg you need to apply 25%, 50%, 75% (100% is only for emergencies and the amount needed for 100% will change as you get more responsiveness)

If you can do this then the horse will learn that when you use your inside leg at 50% every stride it means collection and if at 75% when the inside leg goes forward then that is leg yield etc etc. 25% is keep going, 50% is need a bit more impulsion- get the idea?

Do lots of transitions- aim to do 7 or 9 strides of walk before doing 15 strides of trot then back to walk etc- can do this through all the gaits and reduce/ increase the amount of strides. Do the transitions on serpentines (3,5,7 loop), on circles, on changes across the arena. Keep the work varied and interesting and don't forget to play!

Hope it helps and let me know how you get on! (You will need to practice this quite a bit at first for you to get the hang of it. The horse will understand but your aids may be out until it gets going in your head! I have used this on loads of different horses and it works with all- they are so happy when they realise what you are doing cause it makes sense to them! However I have been using it for 8yrs so it's much easier for me to do!)

[chickyd444]

my horse was super lazy and ignorent of my leg - then i started schooling alot = the change in that animal is amazing- the more i do the more resposive he has become it has taken about 3 months but he listens now to the slightest movement as is working from behind and lifting his feet properly where as before he was happy enough to drag his rear legs behind him:D

[horsemad]

Sometimes making things more fun & adopting a "jolly hockeysticks" type attitude can help with lazy types. Think Pony Club games! I've been known to hoick up my stirrups & come out of a corner half out the saddle yelling "go go go!!!" - not a pretty sight but it can be effective :p. Or try getting from one point to another as fast as possible.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that! When Cindy gets bored schooling and goes into 'plod' mode, thats exactly what I do. We play racing games - even though there is no-one to race against! So I make her halt at one end of the school, but start talking in an 'excited' voice to let her know there is something happening. Then we trot to the other end of the school, where I touch the wall before turning round and cantering back. She's got to know this routine now, so by the time I've reached the wall, she is dancing about, reading to leap into canter once we turn the corner :D For some reason, this is FAR more exciting than just trotting round the school and cantering at the corner :rolleyes:

[GraceT]

Its amazing when Carl does his demo's and just clicks and his horses go for it!
We are all taught about pony club kids or RS kids making horses dead to the legs and this is is beacuse we flap about. Lots and lots of transitions normally help, but each horse is different and i would take advice from your instructor.
Some horses are better if you warm up in canter first.

Also use poles and vary your schooling, maybe do some small jumps as well in between? I have a cross pole in the school and if i feel he is getting bored just pop over it. Usually helps.:)

[Sophie..*]

Yer my TB can be a bit lazy at times. What i do as in walk i use: Halt to walk, walk to halt, then when hes listening a bit, halt to trot, trot to halt etc. Really gets him listening!

[GraceT]

Had a lesson on Saturday and did rein back to canter...that got him really lovley & engaged and off my leg! He felt gorg!:)

[Jamey]

I had this problem with Cossack and it took a wee while to fix but we're 100% better now. It was both our fault equally and a big change came when I changed my attitude. On a laid back/lazy horse you can't be laid back, one of you has to provide the drive, you have to say we are going to trot and we are going to trot now. I thought I was doing this but I wasn't.

Now I start my schooling session holding my reins on the buckle, Cossack has to walk out briskly, stretching down and tracking over. I use my body to encourage this (but not so much I look like I'm sitting on a rocking horse!) and keep my legs gently against his sides without actually having them 'on'.

Do lots of transitions but try to make them as crisp as possible. I try to remember: half halt (to prepare him for a new movement), ask with the legs, if there is no response ask again backed up by the whip. Remember your horse will not be able to move away sharply if he is unbalanced/not paying you his full attention so pick the right moment to ask for a transition. Reward him for any form of forward response - I know it sounds bizarre but even if he bolts he has gone forward, so reward him.

Only have your legs on for transitions/lateral work and guidance around corners etc, i.e when you are telling him something new, and always prepare with a half halt. If he's not going forward in the pace, half halt and then activate the hindquarters by using your whip. Do not use your legs every other stride, every third stride or whatever, as a clever horse will learn that this is what you do and will ignore it. You want to have him waiting for every new signal you give him not trying to guess which ones he can ignore and which ones he has to obey.

Ask him to do lots of halt to trots, walk to canters as this can help whiz them up. Don't use any trot to halts, or canter to walks at this point as downwards transitions are often the time when they will try to go back to there lazy ways and get behind your leg again. Keep them going forward before and after your downward transition.

The key to it is half halts, transitions, figures, legs 'off' unless asking for something new and activate with the whip. Don't wear spurs at this point either as you should be able to get the horse forward without spurs, these should be used later to refine your aids once the horse is going forward off the leg.

[Fanshawe]

Do not use your legs every other stride, every third stride or whatever, as a clever horse will learn that this is what you do and will ignore it. You want to have him waiting for every new signal you give him not trying to guess which ones he can ignore and which ones he has to obey.


Hate to tell you this but my girl is one of the most intelligent horses I have ever ridden (not just me who thinks it either- many instructors and horsey people) and she does not ignore my aids she respects them. Have also ridden horses who have worked at high level dressage and Lippizaners as well as riding school dobbins and not one of them has ignored it.

Instead they understand it. They also don't have to guess whether or not that aid was meant or not because they know that every third stride means get shifting and then the pressure is eased off to every 5th or 7th. Helpful if you have a wobbly lower leg because they can then differentiate between an aid and a wobble as it is a regular movement and the frequency of it tells them how much more effort you want them to put in. Also prevents the incessant tap, tap that lots of riders with slower horses resort to as it focuses the mind and therefore the aid and makes for a happier horse and a less knackered rider! :)

Only when you have them going forward can you take the leg off and apply it in 8 points in the arena (on the corners and nothing on the straight) which then encourages self carriage and a steady pace but that takes time. I still ride her in the beginning with the 3rd, 5th, 7th aid until she is going forward properly and then reduce it to the 8 points.

[wonkeywoody]

What motivates him?

Treat? Rest? usually those two with lazy types.

Place 3 or 4 'markers' (barrels/jump wings /cones etc) around your school/field. Ask him to walk from one to another. DONT nag him and do as little as poss but correct him when he goes off line (rather than micromanage him to keep him straight) YOU MUST FIX YOUR EYES ON THE NEXT MARKER.
When you get there, stop, praise him and poss give treat (now, to him, there is a point to getting there!) After maybe, 30 secs. Ask him to go to the next marker. Repeat. You may find he starts to walk a bit quicker.... Start asking for trot (still stopping etc at each point) ...then canter......
Once he has woken up a bit you can progress to circles etc, but keep doing transitions, keep stopping and giving him a rest 'reward'.....keep him motivated....

[Jamey]

I'm glad this method has worked for you. :)

Training methods will always differ and the method I have been taught is to use your leg only when it is needed and not at regular intervals. MJH enquired about Carl Hester's comment of less leg on unresponsive horses, as this is the method Carl teaches I thought I would add my comments. If other methods work well for other people then that's all for the good. :)

[Fanshawe]

:) sorry bit sensitive at the moment!