Colour Combination Possibilities

[Zesty Maximus]

Hello,

My mare Milly is a Welsh D, bright bay with no white on her legs but a stripe on her nose. I've no idea what her parents were like colour wise as she was taken straight from the Welsh mountains. I'm considering putting her in foal and after essential things like temprament and conformation I thought it'd be nice to see what my options are for potential foal colourings.

So, my question I guess is what colour possibilities are there based on her colouring (parents unknown) mixed with various different colour stallions?

Also, is it possible to decrease the likelihood of white on the legs of the foal? No real reason, just a personal preference. For some reason I like white on the face, but not on the legs.

Thanks,
Zesty Maximus

[chev]

It would take ages to list all the possibilities, especially without knowing the exact genetics of both stallion and mare!

I'm not sure how accurate this link is (haven't really looked at it properly) but it should give you an idea of what you'd get with different stallions.

Colour calculator (http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp)

[White-Blazes]

Do you not have a welsh WPCS passport for her, it should state the colour of the sire and dam on it.

[Zesty Maximus]

Brilliant, thanks Chev. What a handy tool to use when considering your options. It looks like I'd most likely get another bay regardless of what I put her to but it's nice to see what the other possibilities would be.

Her passport doesn't say who her dam and sire are assumedly because, as stated twice already in my original message, her dam and sire are unknown. So short of DNA testing, there's little chance of finding out.

Anyone have any knowledge about the white markings?

[chev]

White markings are down to mutations in the KIT gene. They are almost impossible to predict to be honest; the most minimally marked horses can throw loud sabino foals and the most loudly marked can throw minimal markings. Generally sabino is most loudly expressed on a chestnut coat, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Best option is look at the progeny of any stallion you're considering; how much white his foals have will give you a better idea than how much *he* has himself. If you want to breed lots of chrome, look for a stallion whose foals have lots of white. If not, look for those whose foals have minimal markings.

[White-Blazes]

as stated twice already in my original message, her dam and sire are unknown.


sorry never saw that bit:o

[AengusOg]

So Chev :)

I don't know much about colour.

I've a piebald mare (don't really know how to define her) out of a skewbald mare, by a piebald stallion. Her full sister is bay with black points and a bit of white on pasterns behind.

The piebald mare threw a piebald foal to a Freisian last time. This time she is in foal to a Fell pony stallion.

I would like to be more informed on the subject of colour genetics and probability of foal colour, but there are so many variations on piebald/skewbald that I find it all a bit confusing.

Does Mendell's Law apply here, as it does in poultry breeding, for example? I recall a grid which can be used to calculate probability of genetic character in black/white/blue breeding poultry, (breeding black to white can produce blue, but to improve the intensity/depth/genetic 'purity' of blue you must breed back into homozygous black).

I'm breeding piebald back into solid black to try to produce well (evenly) marked piebalds.

Can you help me to begin to understand if/how this applies to horses, please?

[AengusOg]

Zesty Maximus.

I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, I really should have started a new one.

Perhaps one of the mods will move it. :)

[AengusOg]

Never mind Chev............

I'll find out elsewhere.

Thanks anyway

[chev]

Sorry AengusOg... only just seen this.

Have to go out now but I'll get back to you soon as I get chance!

[chev]

There isn't any research I'm aware of that explains it but there are one or two things that can be said. First is that when talking about sabino, it seems to show up more loudly on chestnut based horses. Black or bay based horses with sabino seem generally to be less loudly marked.

Most white patterns are believed to be part of one gene; the KIT gene. SB1, dominant white (more than one form), tobiano and so on all exist on that gene. If a horse carries tobaino alleles and nothing else, you stand a much greater chance of less extreme white markings than if that horse also has sabino mutation at exon 17, for example. Tobiano isn't known for white facial markings or leg markings, but sabino is; so the two genes work togther to produce very white horses with rather more minimal colour.

By breeding back to Friesians or Fells (for example) you are breeding to horses with no sabino; so the tobiano gives more minimal body markings with none of the typcal sabino markers (roaning, stockings, big white faces, belly splashes etc) so you end up with fewer white patterns at work.

[AengusOg]

:eek: Whoaaaaaa there Chev :D

I'll have to go very slowly on this.

I obviously have much catching up to do before I can see what you're saying.

I appreciate your reply; I'm off to get a basic education before I ask any more questions. :)

[AengusOg]

Actually, when I reread it I can make something of it.

That's very interesting, and gives me something to investigate further.

Thanks Chev :)