“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”

[Chilli]

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear

Now that’s a bit scary, 5 or 6 hours after reading that (although I’ve herd it many times) while looking at riding in Portugal (Hoping to ride with one of Nuno Oliveira’s students in the summer if all the dates match up) I happened upon a web site with so much on it that is exactly the way I feel it’s bizarre.

Now I’ve been studying NH for 10 or so years covering all the big name and some in the states that are unheard of in the UK and been lucky enough to meet or ride with many, but recently I have found other than a handful who don’t call themselves NH I disagree or am not comfortable with a lot said these days.

It all started when I wondered why all this fabulous horsemanship was in the states when other places had horses for thousands of years, after all the Spanish Riding School in Vienna ( Not even the original school in Jerez) was set up only 50 years after the first 30 or so horses arrived in America.

Finding out what had gone on in the past put a different slant on NH for me.

Finding the web site has really opened my eyes to this not being where my heart is anymore, I’ll still ride with Mark Rashid, Kathleen Lindy whenever possible and I don’t think you can ever find much wrong with Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt so will always have them in the back of my mind.

I’m sure I won’t be missed, there are some very knowledgeable people on here with good stuff to say who’s posts I will miss but I feel I detract more than I give.

Who is the person with so much to say I’m impressed by?

Sylvia Loch

For those bored or interested (It is quite long) some of the things that got my attention.

http://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page4.shtml

http://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page5.shtml

http://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page6.shtml

http://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page7.shtml

http://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page3.shtml

[Yann]

Is there actually a conflict between the two things? If you're talking about things like softness, lightness and correct application of pressure and release then it strikes me the two things are exactly the same, and that the principles behind good groundwork are simply being extended into what happens in the saddle. As far as a lot of british 'NH' goes my impression is that biomechnically correct riding based on classical lines is very much seen as the way to go.

[Joyscarer]

I only really started reading up on training methods last year when I bought my first horse but I would ask the same as yann, what do you see as conflicting and what is it you particularly shifting towards and from?

I'll bookmark the links you gave and have a read through them when I am better able to concentrate so thank you for posting them :)

[Bay Mare]

I'm a member of Sylvia's 'Classical Riding Club' and though I don't follow her method of teaching it's a great resource. I don't have any problem with continuing to use 'nh' methods in conjunction with classically orientated riding although we've gone more towards positive reinforcement/clicker training.

Good luck and it will be interesting to hear how you get on :D

[Lili & Morgan]

IMO, NH has much to give regarding horse training, and groundwork, at the end you will have a sensitive light horse. But for the rider, you cannot beat Classical riding.

It has been way before Indians ( of America) rode horses, as it evolved from the greek Xenophon.
I think Classical riding is more correct and accurate, but many people start to claim themsleves Classical riders ... they are not!

But Sylvia Loch and Heather Moffet are two very good representative trainers in the UK . I think HM's book should be read by all beginners ... very enlightening!

[Bay Mare]

But Sylvia Loch and Heather Moffet are two very good representative trainers in the UK . I think HM's book should be read by all beginners ... very enlightening!


Heather has a new book specifically for beginners coming out soon which should be very good.

She also used some IH and a lot of clicker with her horses and they're fantastic and obviously very happy :)

[Chilli]

Better just say this is only my opinion and I don’t expect others to agree (Don’t want to wake up with a branded knife in my back:p)

Oh and its quite long :o


Is there actually a conflict between the two things? If you're talking about things like softness, lightness and correct application of pressure and release then it strikes me the two things are exactly the same, and that the principles behind good groundwork are simply being extended into what happens in the saddle. As far as a lot of british 'NH' goes my impression is that biomechnically correct riding based on classical lines is very much seen as the way to go.

Not sure I see it as a conflict, the good things about NH are good things in any form of horsemanship, I guess what has caused me to drift away is what’s left out of NH.

Personally I find I have less and less in common with NH people these days, I just don’t have the same view of what NH is or think the things I used to think were great are anymore, crashing along on the forehand is not good no matter what else is going on.

When I was first introduced to NH it was via PP and Monty Roberts demos, but I soon ended up at Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunts doors, I still feel the same about those guys today as I did then (and I got to meet Ray Hunt :D), but as I see it most modern NH as it has exploded has gone away from the horse being the most important thing, at looking at things from the horses point of view/position and working from where the horse is in a case by case way, to how to best control/dominate the horse to do what we want it to in a general this fits all way first before we do anything else, now I’m not saying everyone does that, it’s wrong or it won’t work but it’s not what I want to do.

I read threads or articles and find myself disagreeing more than I ever agree with what’s said these days, the stuff on the web site is exactly how I feel about so many things, I can’t really see anything I disagree with.

Generally NH is very big on ground work and short on riding which in many ways is more important, now I’m not saying all NH people ignore the riding they don’t but most do or what they teach is umm, questionable at best.

I really identify with these quotes although I find it hard to take quotes from the site as it all makes so much sense to me.

“Let's face it - anyone can learn to sit on a horse relatively quickly and given a little more time most people can learn to dominate it. However to ride - used here in its specific sense - is altogether something else. Riding implies a partnership; and like any partnership or marriage of minds, there can be a great deal of trial and error - unless one finds a very good teacher to help smooth the way.”


“Whatever anyone tells you there are no easy answers in riding.”


I only really started reading up on training methods last year when I bought my first horse but I would ask the same as yann, what do you see as conflicting and what is it you particularly shifting towards and from?

Hadn’t really thought about it but I guess I’d hope I was moving away from modern NH which IMO is about the benefit of people and dominating the horse, towards traditional/classical horsemanship which is about the horses benefit and partnership with the horse.

Most people agree that NH is mostly a modern presentation, repackage of traditional/classical horsemanship for the modern time oriented world but IMO if you look into traditional/classical horsemanship and that’s not as easy as it sounds you might end up thinking NH is a cut down sub set of traditional/classical horsemanship marketed for the masses, is that a bad thing? No in its original form it wouldn’t be suitable for most of the people who benefit from NH.

This happened a couple of days ago and I think is a good example of what I hope to gain.

I was riding my horse and got my wife to take some photos as I hadn’t got any recently, as I’ve been following NH for many years I haven’t really had any instruction on riding, position etc.

These are some of the worst pictures, my legs and hands are terrible in those instants the photos were taken, now I may have been asking him to move over to the fence with my leg I don’t know.



The next day I rode trying my hardest to not use my legs and just keep them is the position I see Carl Hester and Emile Faurie on TV have theirs, now I ride most days and I was crippled when I got off I must never normally use those muscles.

The amazing thing was that not using my legs or using them in this slightly different way allowed my horse to move better, easier which I translate to a more pleasurable time for the horse and that’s what I hope to gain, improve my riding which in turn will make things easier/improve my horses life and our relation ship which NH in its general form can’t do and at the same time be made aware up front it’s a long and possibly endless road with progress possibly only being very small rather than be told buy this and IT will work.

I should add that I am fully aware of the bio mechanics and have had help from Mark Rashid in allowing the horse to move under me and not getting in the way of the movement, I don’t have a problem.

This was a tiny change above that which made a very noticeable difference not that I got it all the time but when I did :D, that is the type of detailed information that’s in the 100’s of years of traditional/classical horsemanship that there isn’t room for in mainstream modern NH.

If you ever get to see Mark ride look at his position and the way the horse seems to move effortlessly under him.

IMO, NH has much to give regarding horse training, and groundwork, at the end you will have a sensitive light horse. But for the rider, you cannot beat Classical riding.

It has been way before Indians ( of America) rode horses, as it evolved from the greek Xenophon.
I think Classical riding is more correct and accurate, but many people start to claim themsleves Classical riders ... they are not!

The thing is a lot of it comes from traditional/classical horsemanship, there isn’t much in NH that hasn’t come from the past so really it doesn’t have much if anything extra to give, but again you have to look to find it, which isn’t always easy and it is all handed to you on a plate in NH nicely packaged for modern times.

Interesting thing about the fabled American Indians is that historically I’m told there was only two tribes known for their horsemanship the rest were nothing special and rode in bits and saddles when they could get them.

There was at least one tribe that didn’t even ride, just kept horses to eat.

At the end of the day anyone can buy a NH book or Classical Riding book an call themselves what the like it doesn’t mean anything, actions speak louder than words.

[Jane.A]

I have flirted with NH and have embraced some of the ideas, but as I enjoy training with the ultimate goal of competing a dressage I disliked the fact that I felt almost judged for this being my goal. I did and do however want to have a happy athlete with whom to compete, and so have embraced both Sylvia Loch, Heather Moffett and Paul Belasik amongst others. One clinic with Paul got me sitting to the big movement of my old dressage mare as he used an exercise with me to show which sets of muscles I should be using. I am still a work in progress on this tho, and have a long way to go before I achieve the apparent stillness achieved by the really good riders. I recently purchased Balance in movement, by Suzanne Von Dietz and have found some of the exercises both in the book and on her dvd which I got for xmas very helpful to my position and understanding of the interaction between the mechanics of rider and horse. I have also returned to yoga, the freedom of the hip joint is crucial to good balance, and between that and my chiropractor I feel in better alignment and have been of greater assistance to my horse. Its just fitting it all in that's the challenge now:D.

[Crystal Fire]

That's the problem when you equate NH with Parelli. Parelli is only a branch of a very wide approach. I have several committed dressage riders at my clinics, it's great to see how much they can progress with the help of a man in jeans and cowboy hat. One of our Silversand associates is a dedicated and very talented classical rider. She uses her NH skills (and Alexander technique) to enhance her teaching, of groundwork and riding. She comes to give me riding lessons, I find it all very in tune with classical.
I also felt that there was something slightly anti-competition in Parelli, at least in the lower levels, however this isn't common among most of the NH trainers.
Talking of Heather Moffett, I lent her some training materials and on her website she said something along the lines of - at last, a common sense approach to NH training. Not something you hear her say about Parelli...

[Torny]

What a very interesting post, deep and thoughtful. I feel much agreement in what you say. As someone who follows a Natural / Classical approach, I too find it hard to mix with the 'Natural Horsemanship' people. Something to me, just doesn't sit right and I stay very set with Classical ways.

I use positive re-enforcement, via a clicker training type of approach. I have tried to learn as much about horse behaviour and applying both classical training and riding principles to myself and my horse with my goal being a happy, healthy and athletic horse with a rider who is understand, balanced and also enhancing the freedom and expression of the horse.

Many people inspire me, Syliva Loch ( was a member, but can't afford at mo.), Paul Belasik, Paul Dufresne, Richard Heinrichs, Nuno Oliviera and many other classical folk. I learn of each and use what 'feels' right.

[Chilli]

That's the problem when you equate NH with Parelli. Parelli is only a branch of a very wide approach. I have several committed dressage riders at my clinics, it's great to see how much they can progress with the help of a man in jeans and cowboy hat. One of our Silversand associates is a dedicated and very talented classical rider. She uses her NH skills (and Alexander technique) to enhance her teaching, of groundwork and riding. She comes to give me riding lessons, I find it all very in tune with classical.


This is an example of what I’m talking about, I disagree :rolleyes:

I’m afraid IMO ( and I know you won’t agree) Silversand is very closely linked to groundwork focused modern NH which Parelli spawned, the techniques and equipment used are very similar, they are applied differently using similar principles as I see it, but as they are founded by two people with different personalities it’s not surprising there are differences.

I do have the first set of Silversand videos and it is these and photos you have posted of clinics I base this assessment on, if you compare the photos you’ve posted say with a Mark Rashid clinic they are very different but compare them with say a Parelli or even an Equine Ethology clinic the equipment and exercises used look pretty similar.

It’s not that a man in jeans and a cowboy hat can’t help anyone progress it’s how much further or in which different direction can a man who went into an academy at 16 leaving at 60 training each horse for eight years before its training is complete using methods honed over 100’s of years by master horsemen.

It’ just my opinion.:)

It would be interesting to see if in just 50 years NH is still as popular, has faded or got even more popular.

[Crystal Fire]

I know we disagree Chilli, that's fine. :)
Honest people always acknowledge their roots, and Steve from Silversand does this with Pat Parelli. However, there are very fundamental differences in what he teaches and Parelli - use of 4 phases or not being the most obvious. Everything evolves, and Silversand is no exception. I'd say these days it is heavily influenced by Buck Brannaman, but certainly a clinic taught by Steve looks very different to a clinic taught by a Parelli instructor - which is why they are attracting rather different riders.

[Chilli]

It’s been almost 2 months now and I’ve bought a couple of DVDs on Classical Riding which immediately showed me a couple of things I was doing which got in the way of my horse or made it more difficult for him.

Recently I have started Classical Riding lessons on Andalusian Stallions which has caused me to sit back and re evaluate a lot of what I thought about horses.

These stallions are the safest most accommodating horses I’ve ever ridden, it’s not just one but all of them and they are used for people who have never ridden before up to what ever level you like, they are school masters who you have to ride correctly of they just stop.

These horses are the product of classical/traditional horseman ship and I can’t say I’ve ever experienced any horse produced by NH that is a patch on them, I include the 2 horse of Mark Rashid that I have ridden which were among the best until now, but they are not in the same league as these horses.

Looks like a new and exciting chapter is starting for me.

Interestingly Tom Dorrance has two books mentioned in his book as recommended reading, neither are NH or Western riding related but Animal communication and Dressage, surprisingly I’ve never meet anyone else who’s read them even though there are many that quote/followed/looked up to him, perhaps he was trying to nudge people towards classical horsemanship.

[Lili & Morgan]

Chili you are journey is really entertaining me ( in a good way), because I am doing exctaly teh same but the others way :D

I am rider with lots of knowledge technique and practise in English riding with an interest in classical Dressage.

Yes, what is missing in NH is the riding.

IMO! NH is wonderfull for understanding the mind, but they do not understand the physical/biomechanical (sp?) side.

One site which is interesting is Karen Rohlf, she is a Parelli-associate, but also a Dressage rider and judge.
http://www.dressagenaturally.net/page2/page2.html
If you join the newsletter she has very interesting Q&A.

[Meovcorz]

Ditto ditto, on the Nh riding. I HATE it, BUT, I don't ride, SO, I don't need Classical horsemanship, I LOVE classical horsemanship for the riding side of it, but I HATE it for the groundwork side of sorry, but, to many "things" or "gadgets".

A book, I believe you would really really like, by a classical horsemanship rider. The Author's name is: Kathleen Schmitt, and the books title is The Seamless Seat wonderful wonderful book, I absolutely love it, and reccomend it whenever I get the chance.

[Lili & Morgan]

Thanks Pilgrims5! I will invest :p

Right now I am reading :
Balance in Movement: The Seat of the Rider by Suzanne Von Dietze

It is SUPER. She is a physiotherapist, so she has a great understanding on biomechanics and muscles and nerves physiology. Very easy to understand, lots of phtos exercises.

I highly recommand it.

IMO NH gets you and your horse emotionally fit, and "traditional technique" gets you physically fit ... :D

[janet hakeney]

I've gone the other way...I started off with Classical. I used to ride in Peter Maddison-Greenwells display team. I used to get paid to enter at A in passage in the spotlight and do all that stuff. I got fed up with the strong bits and the horses tension and decided to investigate NH. I am working through my Parelli level 3 now and hope at some point in the future to join the two back up again.

[Chilli]

Been really lucky to find a place that’s not all about harsh bits or tension, horses are even ridden bitless sometimes, ride with your mind and seat, no leg or hand is the goal.

Originally was looking to go down the Portuguese road, but through circumstance and good fortune I have ended up the Spanish route and like I said the horses are like no other I’ve ever ridden, feel really lucky to be able to learn from these people, my horse and I are already reaping benefits.

Uranio is looking fine :)

[Skib]

I wonder if familiarity breeds contempt?

I too just bought Sylvias Loch's most recent dvd, but when I learned to ride, hers was the first video every suggested to me by a teacher. I guess it wasnt relevant to me at that stage and I take her for granted as part of the normal UK scene.

I was far more excited by Mark Rashid, animal psychology and learning how to teach horses to do what I wanted both from their backs and on the ground. I saw the many historic similarities between what Rashid was doing and the classical instructor who taught me.

But now, watching the Rashid dvd again with my OH who has just started riding, I see that what was sufficient for me then, is no longer everything. One cannot sit on every single horse the world over, as Rashid sits.

And not every horse will respond to power sharing - or even allowing. Because their powerful gymnastic training has taught them otherwise, to produce every step on immediate command.

I used to get paid to enter at A in passage in the spotlight and do all that stuff. I got fed up with the strong bits and the horses tension and decided to investigate NH.

Whereas I moved in the opposite direction, to investigate the brave new world (the fortune winning world) of British Dressage. I can't explain why, except to extend my competence. It has altered me: how I think of horses and they way I ride them. It has softened my prejudices. But confirmed others.
But best of all is when the new discoveries build on and refine what we already know?

Maybe any adult learning to ride, needs to move on from one area to another, just as doctors in training spend six months in different specialties. We wont necessarilly adopt everything we try.

But if a whole area of knowledge has hithertoo been concealed from one, yes there is a stimulation and enthusiasm of discovering it. Regardless of whether the revelation comes from watching Sylvia Loch or Parelli.

[Meovcorz]

It's all right Lili & Morgan, there aren't many photo's but the few there are, are really good. She totally understands the movement of the horse.

And Chilli, you might find it very interesting she was taught, by a great trainer, and was taught beside Olympic riders (or where eventually :D, through their trainer).

She DOES NOT believe in harsh means to train a horse, very light and subtle that is her whole aim :D.

Believe me you will find it very worthwhile.

[SO1]

I have just finished reading an interesting book called Top Training Methods explored which looks at lots of different styles of horsemanship. Very interesting book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Top-Horse-Training-Methods-Explored/dp/0715317768

[Meovcorz]

Will have a look later, am absolutely a sucker on books :D.

[Chilli]

Last update as I was going to say I’m not sure if this is really the right place but after reading some other threads I’ve sort of changed my mind, it still will be the last update but……………….

What is NH?

In reality peoples idea of what it is goes from putting crystals on bridles to stop spooking to scientific study and everywhere in between.

NH is a personal thing that means different things to different people so how can you consider something to be or not be NH?

It’s one of those things that mean so much and nothing at the same time.

What I consider NH to be will not be what someone else does, these days I’m inclined to believe there is more of what I consider NH outside the world of NH than in it.

So I guess I still do love NH I just find it in different places these days, places and people not in the rope wiggling part of the world.

I still live in hope of reading about the guy who starts wild horses with a small rectangular pen and a 12 ft bamboo pole, the guy who puts himself in danger with a wild horse before he starts working it “gives trust to get trust” or what the chemical/hormonal differences in a gelded horse are and how they do or don’t effect the way they behave/their instincts/learning process instead of all horses being discussed as having natural behaviour when a large portion are anything but natural.

Maybe theses things are widely know, explored and I’ve just missed them but there is so much under the NH banner it’s shame we only end up getting to hear about the same old things.

Anyway, time for a pic

http://i28.tinypic.com/rtp5sk.jpg

I think there is some improvement in position but the change in mind set/technique when riding is producing some lovely feel, the only problem is when your horse shows you a glimpse/the feel of something fantastic YOU JUST WANT MORE MORE MORE, I feel like a drug addict I think I’m hooked.

[Crystal Fire]

Well, I'll miss you Chilli, it's nice to talk to someone who can see that NH is about more than wiggling ropes.
My local "NH" type trainer, the one I ride with mostly IS an ex Nuno Olivera student. With the right aproach there is no conflict.

[ameliet1971]

....it's nice to talk to someone who can see that NH is about more than wiggling ropes.
..
What a very condescending statement Crystal Fire. Regardless of the training method used, I've yet to meet anyone who's believes NH consists of just wiggling a rope. :rolleyes:

[Crystal Fire]

Oh well, sorry if you feel condescended to... ;)
Unfortunately, a lot of NH students to a lot of rope wiggling, which sort of leaves things open to jokey comments like that.
Actually, let me just change what I said. It's nice to chat to people who can see that NH is about much, much more than Parelli. Some of them are found here. :-))

[ameliet1971]

Oh well, sorry if you feel condescended to... ;)
Unfortunately, a lot of NH students to a lot of rope wiggling, which sort of leaves things open to jokey comments like that.
Actually, let me just change what I said. It's nice to chat to people who can see that NH is about much, much more than Parelli. Some of them are found here. :-))
I apologise if that statement was intended as a joke, but it certainly didn't come across as a light hearted comment to me.

You know what Crystal Fire, I think it's nice to chat to anyone who can discuss different aspects of NH without mocking others for their beliefs. :rolleyes:

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've never been a Parelli student. ;)

[Crystal Fire]

If you take the time to read some of my postings you might realise that I don't mock people for their beliefs, and tend to be rather a supportive member of the forum.
I think you're being over-sensitive, my original comment was - Well, I'll miss you Chilli, it's nice to talk to someone who can see that NH is about more than wiggling ropes.

And it is.
That is a comment refering to one person - Chilli - it doesn't say that nobody else on the forum has the same views as him, it doesn't say that anyone here thinks NH is just about wiggling ropes - it refers to Chilli. If you want to take it personally, then as they say "It's your journey". :)

[ameliet1971]

Believe me, I didn't take your comment personally, it just came across as generally very condescending the way it was written. Maybe a :D after your "jokey comment" would have made it more clear. ;)

[lorna01]

I must state my own views on this.

Natural horsemanship??? A very big category...Dont believe in all of the principles and find that my horses and I understand one another through reward and punishment (punishment is a very servere sounding word for a smack on the chest) my horses respect me because I respect them. We work together in harmony (most of the time he he)

Classical Riding enlightened me to an all new way of working with my horses.

Classical is just so perfect in every respect and has worked for me and every horse I ride.

I am intreaged and need to find out more about is Nevzorov Haute Ecole. WOW is an understatement.

It is horsemanship at its peak-I want to know more about it and will do eventually (although he believes in giving up any form of competing which I love-slightly extreme for me)

This maybe some form of natural horse manship but it ultimate and is better than any other examples i have seen.

Defo bigging up Sylvia though, went to one of her demos not long ago-an amazing lady, slowing adding all of her books to my pile he he

[Crystal Fire]

Has anyone subscribed to Nevzorov's training programme to investigate more about the "how"? I find it really frustrating when all I see is the results. As he thinks that Parelli level 1 is a good foundation, and he thinks that Silke Valentin is someone to emulate, I do wonder if the foundation for what he does might run along similar lines. In which case, as with many, he would start working with restraint and then progress to without.
I have mixed feelings about him based on what is available on the Net without joining his "club". There is some tension in the work on display, and some of it isn't classically correct. There was some rather disturbing video of a laid down horse - but it's been removed.

[Yann]

I've never rope waggled ;) For me NH is about trying to work with horses whilst taking into account their nature and the way they tick, preferably with as little force or coercion as possible. In some cases that might not even be 'NH' at all, classical would come in to that category. I'm sure there are plenty of accomplished horse people who have never been near a rope halter who work that way too. The principles are almost always the same as far as I can tell.

Not at all convinced about the Nevzorov, I can't see how he can square his disavowal of any kind of restraint on the horse with his admiration for PNH. No problem with PNH in that sense, but it doesn't add up for me. No idea how correct his results are or how he achieves them but all we see are pictures and short video clips of him doing stuff in a small indoor school. It just seems like a few clever tricks to me, all very pretty but ultimately a bit futile. I wonder if he could go into an outdoor 60x20 and ride a dressage test like that?:p

[lorna01]

Not at all convinced about the Nevzorov, I can't see how he can square his disavowal of any kind of restraint on the horse with his admiration for PNH. No problem with PNH in that sense, but it doesn't add up for me. No idea how correct his results are or how he achieves them but all we see are pictures and short video clips of him doing stuff in a small indoor school. It just seems like a few clever tricks to me, all very pretty but ultimately a bit futile. I wonder if he could go into an outdoor 60x20 and ride a dressage test like that?:p


The whole point in his way of working with horses is that it is not about riding a Dressage tst isnt it?

I think a lot of the problems people have with him is gealousy, I cant imagine Id ever be able to do that with a horse, but I wish I could,

Thre is tension in every relationship, and the tension shown doesnot look like it distresses the horses in any way and they are ahppy to work with him.

Tricks??? he he, wish i could do those "tricks"

[Crystal Fire]

Maybe my problem is that I know people who can do the things Nevzorov does, and therefore I have something to compare him with. It's still a huge and impressive deal of course, but it means that I don't see him as being particularly exceptional.
I would say that their horses certainly look less tense than many in N's clips. Tension in movement is acceptable if you don't want to achieve true collection (see the German Training Scale - Versammlung). Personally I don't feel right about the level of tension I see in some of his videos. I don't think you can achieve the greatest level of performance in horse and rider unless you base it on relaxation, and keep that relaxation in all you do.
The video that was removed was supposed to show a horse laying happily on the ground with him laying about all over it. The horse was eating grass at the same time, but many pointed out that it wasn't relaxed eating, it was the frenzied snatching of a distressed horse. When people started to question this the video was removed.
Am I saying that I am perfect? Oh no! Can I do what he does? Nope (not sure I want to do exactly what he does...). However, if as he does, you set yourself up as a model of perfection, while criticising and being pretty rude about other horsemen, well glasshouses and stones come to mind.
I am starting to do some work with a horse using a cordero (the neck rope thingy). The way I'm approaching it is to work softly on-line to build an understanding between us, and to help the horse to feel relaxed. Then the halter comes off and the loop goes around the neck, and the boundaries stretch. This will be a good base for eventual liberty work, I know this because I've done plenty of that in the past.
So - my theory is that maybe this guy does similar. Nothing wrong with that, it works for Silke after all.

[parsharainbow]

LOL at the wiggling ropes comment :D

Honestly you lot, it was a light hearted comment, what is the world coming to when we can't even make a light hearted joke at ourselves :)

[Yann]

It's serious stuff this you know ;)

The whole point in his way of working with horses is that it is not about riding a Dressage tst isnt it?

So what is it about when you strip away all the hype? Having enough control over your horse to make it carry out some fancy moves with less equipment on it than the next man? (a neck rope is still tack in my book). I'd rather go hacking personally, but each to their own :D

[Lili & Morgan]

I do NOT like Nevrozok at all.

A year or two ago, there was a very interesting thread about him on EE. Some truths came about him. I would not get near the man.
I cannot remember the details I won't try to be sued for libel, so I won't repeat any of what was said.

But Imo the man is dodgy, VERY dodgy ...

[parsharainbow]

It's serious stuff this you know ;)






Isn't it just ;)

life is serious (I think ;) ) but if you can't have fun doing it and crack the odd joke along the way wouldn't it be boring :p

I don't know why 'riding' and 'horsemanship' has to be such a serious issue, come on someone's gonna laugh at you it might as well be you :D

Having enough control over your horse to make it carry out some fancy moves with less equipment on it than the next man?

I'm trying telepathy next ;)

[ameliet1971]

LOL at the wiggling ropes comment :D

Honestly you lot, it was a light hearted comment, what is the world coming to when we can't even make a light hearted joke at ourselves :)
There's nothing wrong with anyone making light hearted jokes about themselves..that's an healthy trait. What leaves a nasty taste in my mouth is when people mock others for their beliefs.

It's already been established that the wiggling rope comment was a "light hearted joke" and not intended to come across as either mocking or condescending...and I've already apologised to CrystalFire if this was the case.

So, I'm not really sure for the reason of your post. :confused:

[lorna01]

It's serious stuff this you know ;)



So what is it about when you strip away all the hype? Having enough control over your horse to make it carry out some fancy moves with less equipment on it than the next man? (a neck rope is still tack in my book). I'd rather go hacking personally, but each to their own :D

Its about a strong relationship and bond-at least it is for me. If my horse couldnt do dressage or didnt like to I wouldnt give up correct schooling and work, I would just give up competing them.

The fact of the matter is that we shouldnt do what we do with our horses just for a red rosette, we should do it for their well being-and ours!

From what I ve seen and herd of him he is brilliant-untill some one has proof that what he does is not through pain or discomfort then Ill support him.
He produces an amazing relationship, and anyone who can get a horse to work so well and has such strong feelings about working so kindly with horses has my backing.
More people should aim to work with horses with his attitude towards it in my oppinion.

He thinks that the horse is the most important peice

[parsharainbow]

There's nothing wrong with anyone making light hearted jokes about themselves..that's an healthy trait. What leaves a nasty taste in my mouth is when people mock others for their beliefs.



So, I'm not really sure for the reason of your post. :confused:

it was a general comment about the way the horse world works, so many people seem to take themselves so seriously, its such a shame when a hobby is there to be enjoyed - that is the reason for my post

somewhere along the line someone will mock someone else for their beliefs it is unfortunately a rather nasty human trait, it is also something we do when 'we' don't understand something.

These posts just strike me as how seriously we take things as a race when we should be enjoying things

[Yann]

The fact of the matter is that we shouldnt do what we do with our horses just for a red rosette, we should do it for their well being-and ours!

I agree wholeheartedly with that. Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense. However I can't help feeling that sometimes with this type of thing that it can become more about the trainer's ego than the horse.

From what I ve seen and herd of him he is brilliant-untill some one has proof that what he does is not through pain or discomfort then Ill support him.
He produces an amazing relationship, and anyone who can get a horse to work so well and has such strong feelings about working so kindly with horses has my backing.

Trouble is we don't know how he gets his results because for whatever reason, he ain't telling, and sometimes the things people say and what they actually do can be at odds. Do some research on the man, he's not nice, and for me at least that matters.

[Crystal Fire]

Well, as Yann says, each to their own.
Recently a good friend of mine lost his "best horse". It made me think, I have 3 "best horses" all at various stages of training, all with slightly different strengths. So I decided to enjoy my time with each of them to the max. I love going hacking, I have about 60 miles of woodland to roam without touching a road. However I also want to try out lots of different and interesting things with them, as long as they seem to be enjoying what we do. So, I'm back into working at liberty, I've been polishing up "dressage" moves on-line, trying to improve my riding and I decided to experiment with this neck strap idea. :)
It's fun.

[Crystal Fire]

Ah, morning Yann! :)
Yep, I've already had a guess about how Mr Nevs might get his results. I'm not sure we'll ever find out though, we've been asking for info for ages.

[parsharainbow]

I have 3 "best horses"

I always say that about mine :)

[Chilli]

I didn’t say I wasn’t going to read or post anymore or did I :confused:

I am just not going to update this thread anymore as although this is a place to discuss NH principles/methods etc I don’t think people really want to see it coming off second best in a comparison and on this thread for me depending on what NH is to each person it may well do.

Nevzoroy, now there is an interesting man.

Politician, Novice in a monastery, base chorister, keeper of a museum, a loader, a stunt man, a mercenary, a literary secretary, a script writer, a reporter.

He has three times become a volunteer hostage of terrorists in exchange for release of other people.

His horsemanship on the other hand I’ve seen others do the same thing better (the cordero makes me laugh), but to be fair I can say the same of Pat Parelli.

He does have some funny views on his site, there is a comparison table for Sports, NH, Classical and his way.

He seems to see NH as only Parelli but on his description for life expectance (or age or something) he has

It is not taken into consideration, however horses usually live long life because of the ‘decorative’ type of usage

These are on NH as well under a different topic

Any person who wants to have placid and safe relations with a horse

A person satisfied with a simple concept of the world offered by this method.

A person who doesn’t think about the true nature of the horse

Makes me laugh, there are others as well but I can’t remember them all at the moment.

I quite like him he’s very entertaining, always good for a laugh.

Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense

Then we should never ride them or even keep them in some respects, I think we have to realize that when we ride we are putting wear and tear on their whole Exo-Muscular System and should ride as biomechanicaly kind as we can.

I find it perplexing when you speak to people who say everything that is done with a horse should only be for the horse benefit then ride in a way that make the horses job harder and puts more strain/wear and tear on its Exo-Muscular System, that’s without getting into the mental side just the physical.

I do think you should always do your best for the horse what ever you do with it but at the same recognize that whatever you do it’s pretty much all for you not the horse.

somewhere along the line someone will mock someone else for their beliefs it is unfortunately a rather nasty human trait, it is also something we do when 'we' don't understand something.

Now there is an example of NH where people don’t look for it, lets take the horses nature into account with everything we do but forget our own nature and the part it plays in our own actions. Nice bit of NH there imo ;)

I own 3 horses at the moment but I only have 1 horse and I think I will die only ever having had 1 horse although I’ve owned quite a few already.:cool:

[Meovcorz]

I own 3 horses at the moment but I only have 1 horse and I think I will die only ever having had 1 horse although I’ve owned quite a few already.:cool:

I don't get this.

Chilli, I really like your post

Last update as I was going to say I’m not sure if this is really the right place but after reading some other threads I’ve sort of changed my mind, it still will be the last update but……………….

What is NH?

In reality peoples idea of what it is goes from putting crystals on bridles to stop spooking to scientific study and everywhere in between.

NH is a personal thing that means different things to different people so how can you consider something to be or not be NH?

It’s one of those things that mean so much and nothing at the same time.

What I consider NH to be will not be what someone else does, these days I’m inclined to believe there is more of what I consider NH outside the world of NH than in it.

So I guess I still do love NH I just find it in different places these days, places and people not in the rope wiggling part of the world.

I still live in hope of reading about the guy who starts wild horses with a small rectangular pen and a 12 ft bamboo pole, the guy who puts himself in danger with a wild horse before he starts working it “gives trust to get trust” or what the chemical/hormonal differences in a gelded horse are and how they do or don’t effect the way they behave/their instincts/learning process instead of all horses being discussed as having natural behaviour when a large portion are anything but natural.

Maybe theses things are widely know, explored and I’ve just missed them but there is so much under the NH banner it’s shame we only end up getting to hear about the same old things.

Anyway, time for a pic

I think there is some improvement in position but the change in mind set/technique when riding is producing some lovely feel, the only problem is when your horse shows you a glimpse/the feel of something fantastic YOU JUST WANT MORE MORE MORE, I feel like a drug addict I think I’m hooked.

I am glad you have not removed yourself. I actually really like you posts, and how you think, I think we both follow on the same wave length -at least I have come to that.

"what the chemical/hormonal differences in a gelded horse are and how they do or don’t effect the way they behave/their instincts/learning process instead of all horses being discussed as having natural behaviour when a large portion are anything but natural."

would you please Pm me with some of this info. I would be very interested in this.

For those of you who are interested Nevsorov:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevzorov

[ameliet1971]

it was a general comment about the way the horse world works, so many people seem to take themselves so seriously, its such a shame when a hobby is there to be enjoyed - that is the reason for my post

somewhere along the line someone will mock someone else for their beliefs it is unfortunately a rather nasty human trait, it is also something we do when 'we' don't understand something.

These posts just strike me as how seriously we take things as a race when we should be enjoying things
I agree, mocking someone else for their beliefs is just one of the unpleasant traits of the human race...but it's unfair to generalise on this because "we" don't all do it!!!!

I truly believe that reading about, questioning and trying to understand something I don't understand is much more healthy and productive than mocking it....and I'm certainly not alone with this belief.

At times, rather than reading light hearted banter, it is interesting to read a more serious topic such as this, which has been very enlightening. It would have been a pity to see condescending or mocking comments starting to appear....but I now realise this wasn't the case. ;)

[Yann]

Quote:
Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense

Then we should never ride them or even keep them in some respects, I think we have to realize that when we ride we are putting wear and tear on their whole Exo-Muscular System and should ride as biomechanicaly kind as we can.

Why shouldn't we ride them or keep them? That's not the same thing as doing our best to make sure that what we ask of them is within their physical and mental capabilities and isn't going to cause them harm. We all of us wear out and die eventually, hopefully we can have some fun on the way too;) It's interesting to consider whether a domestic horse that's kept in a field and never worked is better off than one that's fit, supple, well conditioned and leads an active and varied life. The latter is possibly actually closer to the 'natural' ideal in many ways. I'd agree that we all have a responsibility to make sure we try and ride in a way that's as comfortable and easy for the horse to deal with as possible.

[parsharainbow]

I agree, mocking someone else for their beliefs is just one of the unpleasant traits of the human race...but it's unfair to generalise on this because "we" don't all do it!!!!



I didn't say 'we' all did, I said somewhere down the line someone will do it and someone else will be subjected to it, that is not a generalisation it is just the way it is unfortunately, as you yourself said ;) my comments at that point didn't have much to do with the original 'wiggly rope' post more of an observation on some people :)

I totally agree with you though if you don't understand something it is far better to go and read up on it and make an informed decision on it than to just mock something you have no understanding of which unfortunately rather a lot of people do.

There is a lot that can be said about unpleasant human traits as there are many but I don't think this is the thread for it ;)

[Chilli]

"what the chemical/hormonal differences in a gelded horse are and how they do or don’t effect the way they behave/their instincts/learning process instead of all horses being discussed as having natural behaviour when a large portion are anything but natural."

I’d love to hear about it too, the closest I’ve got is one or two NH trainers talking about the differences in training them but they never went into much detail.


Why shouldn't we ride them or keep them?

There is no reason at all but that doesn’t mean it’s the best thing for the horse, personally I don’t see people who use the horse to get a rosette that much differently to those who use the horse for pleasure hacking they both use the horse to give them enjoyment as do we all and I’m not saying either is wrong only that if the horse is the most important thing above everything else or “Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense“ you wouldn’t get on or keep them.

That's not the same thing as doing our best to make sure that what we ask of them is within their physical and mental capabilities and isn't going to cause them harm.

I think if we keep horses that is our minimum responsibility.

We all of us wear out and die eventually, hopefully we can have some fun on the way too

We don’t all spend our lives with a heavy rucksack on our back possible accompanied by doing physically demanding work without any choice in the matter, if we did I think we may end up worn out and dead sooner (Not suggesting horses always have saddle and rider on their back)

And I think the stats bare this out regarding the life expectancy of people who spend their life performing manual labor as opposed to those who don’t iirc

It's interesting to consider whether a domestic horse that's kept in a field and never worked is better off than one that's fit, supple, well conditioned and leads an active and varied life.

Are either better off than a horse in the wild with no one restricting it’s movements or actions, no one choosing to geld or not, no one choosing if and who to breed with etc, iirc I read somewhere horses in the wild (not that wild is really wild these days almost everywhere is owned by someone and therefore the horses too) live longer than domestic horses.

When I see wild horses like the ones I saw in South America

http://i30.tinypic.com/29408qc.jpg

I wonder if I should ride my horse at all, I’d love to see him entire in the wild with his own band free as a bird but in reality he was born in a stable and has lived a different life, that type of life is foreign to him, riding is what he knows and he enjoys it, I still appreciate what he has lost even though he doesn’t know himself and try to look after him the best I can, sadly I can’t afford a big farm with hundreds of acres for him to roam free in, perhaps one day if I win the lottery.

So we do what everyone does, the best they can with what they have and in doing so we have ended up with this thread and a good place for me to finish posting on it

[Lili & Morgan]

I’d love to hear about it too, the closest I’ve got is one or two NH trainers talking about the differences in training them but they never went into much detail.


I read a very article by Bob Avila the reining trainer, he was not making such a difference between a gelded and stallion, he was making the difference between a male and a female.
Mares being much more difficult to train.

I do not think the psyche of the male horse changes so much, I think they are "Less everything" because of the lack of testosterone. Thought when I see some gelding I am pleased they are gelded, I would be worried if they were still entire.

Not sure they are better off in the wild, they get cold, (truly cold), hungry, thirsty and stressed by wild animals, and their life-expectancy is short too.

every life-style has its short-coming!

[Francis Burton]

Are either better off than a horse in the wild with no one restricting it’s movements or actions, no one choosing to geld or not, no one choosing if and who to breed with etc, iirc I read somewhere horses in the wild (not that wild is really wild these days almost everywhere is owned by someone and therefore the horses too) live longer than domestic horses.
Like Lili, I'd be very surprised if domestic horses lived shorter lives on average than ones living "in the wild". If they did, I would think we were doing something wrong!

I do not think the psyche of the male horse changes so much, I think they are "Less everything" because of the lack of testosterone. Thought when I see some gelding I am pleased they are gelded, I would be worried if they were still entire.
Hmm, I do think something is actually missing from geldings (with a few few exceptions, maybe)- a spark of some kind, an attitude, a sharpness that is completely blunted - rather than just being less. Sometimes I see what horses are like after being gelding, having known them as stallions, and wish they hadn't been. Mostly though, they are better off because the way they are kept and handled suits them much better.

[Yann]

Yep, not sure where the life expectancy thing comes from, it does get bandied about a lot and I daresay it depends very much on which wild and which domestic populations you are comparing.

if the horse is the most important thing above everything else or “Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense“ you wouldn’t get on or keep them

Which is clearly nonsensical since we all have horses because we gain pleasure and enjoyment and many other things from them. My original comment was about people who put their egos and aspirations before their horse's wellbeing and welfare. Owning and riding a horse isn't automatically detrimental to them, or wasn't as far as I was aware.

We don’t all spend our lives with a heavy rucksack on our back possible accompanied by doing physically demanding work without any choice in the matter

Again rather nonsensical, these days very few domesticated horses do nearly enough work to make that kind of comparison reasonable. As to choice I daresay most of us don't have any either where having to work is concerned ;)

Hmm, I do think something is actually missing from geldings (with a few few exceptions, maybe)- a spark of some kind, an attitude, a sharpness that is completely blunted

I would tend to agree with that, it's the main reason I prefer to own mares :)

[Chilli]

I'd be very surprised if domestic horses lived shorter lives on average than ones living "in the wild".

It was a while ago when I read it and was skeptical myself but I have since read some studies about wild horses being domesticated later in life as well as young horses which live as long as domesticated horses but without the need for as much if any real medical care, the wild horses are more hardy and in a like for like comparison they would live longer, put domesticated horses into the wild environment and they would live shorter lives than the wild ones, take away the medical care from the domesticated horses and domesticated wild horses live longer.

Like most people on here I haven’t done any research myself so can only go on what I’ve read but I have been lucky enough to see some wild horses in remote parts of the world and they looked in pretty nice condition when I saw them, I know it was the summer and in the winter they were probably hat racks but they were doing alright on the way they lived.

Owning and riding a horse isn't automatically detrimental to them, or wasn't as far as I was aware.

That is the point riding is detrimental to some degree be that physical or mental, just because you are not aware of something it doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Do you think taking a horse that has not evolved to carry a person on it’s back and put 12+ stone plus tack on it’s back is not detrimental to it’s Exo-Muscular System?

Obviously horses and people come in different shapes and sizes and people do different things with their horses so how much of a detriment will vary greatly (And the detriment may be very small but that doesn't stop it being there).

Do you also think that horses in their natural environment have the same amount of back issues domesticated horses have do due to poor fitting tack or poor riding?

Etc, etc.

Again rather nonsensical, these days very few domesticated horses do nearly enough work to make that kind of comparison reasonable.

Eventing, dressage, showjumping, cutting, polo etc are not demanding work at any level?

I don’t think you’ll find wild horses with as much muscle developed through physical exertion.

You may also want to (although not always pleasant) look at parts of the world where horses are still used other than for pleasure and sport I don’t think you’ll find it’s a small number.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and yours is it’s nonsensical, mine is you don’t know what you talking about, it’s just a fact of life people disagree.

And I’m afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

Defiantly last Post for me :)

[Joyscarer]

Well I for one have really enjoyed this thread so thank you one and all :cool:

[Francis Burton]

It was a while ago when I read it and was skeptical myself but I have since read some studies about wild horses being domesticated later in life as well as young horses which live as long as domesticated horses but without the need for as much if any real medical care, the wild horses are more hardy and in a like for like comparison they would live longer, put domesticated horses into the wild environment and they would live shorter lives than the wild ones, take away the medical care from the domesticated horses and domesticated wild horses live longer.
Ah, that's a different kettle of fish entirely - sorry if I misunderstood. Yes, I could quite easily believe that domestic bred horses would fare less well in the wild compared to feral horses that had been living in wild for many generations. I think we may well be inadvertently breeding various kinds of unfitnesss (apart from sporting!) into our horses, especially with the increased use of AI in recent decades. However, protection from natural depredations and access to veterinary care allows them to survive further into old age.

Do you think taking a horse that has not evolved to carry a person on it’s back and put 12+ stone plus tack on it’s back is not detrimental to it’s Exo-Muscular System?
As you go on to say, the amount of damage will depend to some extent on the intensity and duration of the exercise. A horse that's only hacked out for an hour or two once a week is going to receive much less wear and tear than one that's (say) jumped daily. The question is whether the light intensity/short duration exercise produces enough damage to be noticeable. I have no idea how one would go about testing that other than breeding identical twins living identical lives but having different exercise regimes, or do very careful measurements on large numbers of horses.

I would tend to agree with that, it's the main reason I prefer to own mares :)
But then stallions are supposed to be more easily trainable - which I can believe - possibly something to do with their ability/propensity to focus on their human handler.

[Yann]

Eventing, dressage, showjumping, cutting, polo etc are not demanding work at any level?

If you read my posts properly then you'll notice that I used the phrase 'very few' not 'all' domesticated horses - which I think is fair comment as far as the list of activities you've posted goes. The proportion of domestic horses in proper hard work or actual 'work' in this country is pretty small.

As you go on to say, the amount of damage will depend to some extent on the intensity and duration of the exercise.

Which has to be balanced against the long term damage to a horse that spends all its life in a field eating too much and unable to move anything like as much as nature intended.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and yours is it’s nonsensical, mine is you don’t know what you talking about

Ooooh!!!! :D

I think we may well be inadvertently breeding various kinds of unfitnesss (apart from sporting!) into our horses

I think that's very true, many of the things that make wild horses successful have been bred out of domesticated horses as undesirable traits. There's been very little opportunity for any natural selection to correct that.

[katefarmer]

I’d love to hear about it too, the closest I’ve got is one or two NH trainers talking about the differences in training them but they never went into much detail.


Are we talking the difference between geldings and stallions, or geldings and mares?

I'm not sure about hormonal/biochemical differences - though I would have thought those must be documented. Behaviour wise, I think there's quite a bit around. I generally tend to go with the saying that "a gelding is a stallion with the volume turned down" - the instincts are basically the same, but may be dampened or differently expressed.

Differences between mares and geldings/stallions are, I think, greatly underplayed or even ignored in many approaches, but they do have important implications for training.

I'm happy to discuss details if anyone is interested? :D

[SO1]

I’d love to hear about it too, the closest I’ve got is one or two NH trainers talking about the differences in training them but they never went into much detail.




There is no reason at all but that doesn’t mean it’s the best thing for the horse, personally I don’t see people who use the horse to get a rosette that much differently to those who use the horse for pleasure hacking they both use the horse to give them enjoyment as do we all and I’m not saying either is wrong only that if the horse is the most important thing above everything else or “Whatever we do with our horses, it should never be at their expense“ you wouldn’t get on or keep them.



I think if we keep horses that is our minimum responsibility.



We don’t all spend our lives with a heavy rucksack on our back possible accompanied by doing physically demanding work without any choice in the matter, if we did I think we may end up worn out and dead sooner (Not suggesting horses always have saddle and rider on their back)

And I think the stats bare this out regarding the life expectancy of people who spend their life performing manual labor as opposed to those who don’t iirc



Are either better off than a horse in the wild with no one restricting it’s movements or actions, no one choosing to geld or not, no one choosing if and who to breed with etc, iirc I read somewhere horses in the wild (not that wild is really wild these days almost everywhere is owned by someone and therefore the horses too) live longer than domestic horses.

When I see wild horses like the ones I saw in South America

http://i30.tinypic.com/29408qc.jpg

I wonder if I should ride my horse at all, I’d love to see him entire in the wild with his own band free as a bird but in reality he was born in a stable and has lived a different life, that type of life is foreign to him, riding is what he knows and he enjoys it, I still appreciate what he has lost even though he doesn’t know himself and try to look after him the best I can, sadly I can’t afford a big farm with hundreds of acres for him to roam free in, perhaps one day if I win the lottery.

So we do what everyone does, the best they can with what they have and in doing so we have ended up with this thread and a good place for me to finish posting on it

For 21 hours a day my pony lives in this sort enviroment in a large field with other ponies and horses, the fields are rotated so they get to have a change, he is not entirely free he can't roam all over the country but has alot of a freedom.

For a couple of hours a day he comes up to the yard for a cuddle and groom and then we hack out or ride in the school and I think he enjoys it he gets excited when I get his tack out especially if he has a had a bit of a break.

I would say he is happy and has a nice life compared to me as I have to work 8 hours a day and I have to make my own meals and do cleaning whereas all he has to do most of the time is play with his friends, eat grass or sleep.

[Meovcorz]

Well I for one have really enjoyed this thread so thank you one and all :cool:

Hmmm.......... I agree, I have really enjoyed it.

For 21 hours a day my pony lives in this sort enviroment in a large field with other ponies and horses, the fields are rotated so they get to have a change, he is not entirely free he can't roam all over the country but has alot of a freedom.

For a couple of hours a day he comes up to the yard for a cuddle and groom and then we hack out or ride in the school and I think he enjoys it he gets excited when I get his tack out especially if he has a had a bit of a break.

I would say he is happy and has a nice life compared to me as I have to work 8 hours a day and I have to make my own meals and do cleaning whereas all he has to do most of the time is play with his friends, eat grass or sleep.

Actually my two horses, are out 24 hours a day, and don't ever rug them - but I have no need to.

[tandp]

Quote Unquote

'Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It should not be thought of as a fad or style'

[Meovcorz]

Quote Unquote

'Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It should not be thought of as a fad or style'

I like that Tandp, that's really good.

[EquiPortal]

I am still learning about NH and have soooo much more to learn, infact I don't think I will ever stop, once you have read about one technique, another one springs up! This thread just demonstrates how passionate people are about the way people interact with their horse and something I have found is that horse owners are very divided by training methods and riding techniques. I have mentioned NH to classically trained riders before and they have reacted to it as though I had asked them to chop their arm off! I really feel that each person should do whatever they feel most comfortable with and whatever suits their particular horse and let other people do it how they want to do it, as long as there is no pain or harm done to the horse - each to their own I say.:)

Like I said still learning, exploring techniques - finding my way through all of the info out there! :eek: