natural personship - horses training people

[Sue Carnell]

This is a true story.

A lady bought a young, untrained horse. This rider didn't know much about training horses, but thought she could ride ok, so decided to ride her new horse. She kicked her to get her to go, but her horse didn't know what it meant, so didn't go, She got kicked harder and shoved with a driving seat, so she did go a bit, but eventually bucked her rider off and broke bones. This lady thought she had a stubborn, difficult horse, so sent her off for 'natural' training. She came back six weeks later, supposedly fully trained (no real trainer would claim to train any horse in six weeks), but her owner hadn't been trained at all.

The rider got on and kicked and shoved. Her horse took a step forward, thus inadvertently training her rider that kicking and shoving meant go. Rider pulled on the reins and her horse stopped, thus training her that pulling on the reins meant stop. Eventually, the poor horse not realising how well she was training her rider in the wrong things, refused to go when she was kicked. This is when her rider called the trainer the horse had been to, who told her to wear spurs (a more thoughtful person might have stopped there, if they hadn't already, but then again they might not). Anyway, she got on her horse again and kicked with the spurs. Of course her horse jumped forward in surprise, thus training her rider that kicking with spurs meant go, as her horse rewarded her with the right response.

Sadly, her horse stopped when she got over the shock and started to get used to being kicked with spurs, so her rider learned that to get her to go, she had to kick, not just once, but over and over with the spurs. To get faster, she had to kick over and over, harder and harder with the spurs.

When she wanted to stop, she pulled on the reins as before, but it didn't work this time, as, having little control over her legs, she was digging with spurs at the same time as pulling. So, she pulled harder and the horse stopped. She'd now trained her rider that kicking with spurs meant go, keep kicking meant keep going, kick harder meant go faster and dig the spurs in and pull really hard meant stop.

Poor horse wasn't very happy with this, so became reluctant to approach the mounting block for her rider to get on. Her rider, now well into this Natural Horsemanship stuff (no, not really, she just thought she was), got a long rope and a halter and started hitting (swinging the rope, as her horse should know to get out of the way) her horse to get her to the block. This worked. Her horse had now trained her to hit her with a rope, or her long reins, to get her to the mounting block. All the time, this owner was complaining about her stupid, stubborn, difficult horse.

The poor confused horse was now really getting upset. So, when her rider got on and dug in her spurs, she ran backwards. In shock, the rider took her legs away and stopped doing anything. Now she was training the horse. If the horse went backwards, her rider stopped harrassing her. So, rider would kick, horse would run back, rider would stop kicking. The horse thought she'd cracked it, she now knew what was wanted. Until eventually, the horse ran back as far as she could go and then the rider started kicking again, when the horse took a step forwards. Rider thinking kicking was working, phew, carried on kicking and the horse ran backwards again.

Now, the rider could start thinking that maybe she's doing something wrong, seek help and advice and take it, or she could think she has a difficult, stupid, stubborn horse and take her home to breed from her.

Which do you think she did?

Is your horse training you?

This person and the people who taught her horse (and advised her to wear the spurs) would say they're Natural Horsemanship trainers and drop the names we've all heard, as being influential to them. I've now met four horses trained by the same people who claim to be NH and kindly western trainers. Not all claims to NH is natural or horsemanship, whether the claim is by a private individual, or a trainer, so don't just believe the adverts, make sure you know what you're letting yourself (or your horse) in for.

Sad isn't it. :(

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Crystal Fire]

Yes! Sue, you're so right. Personally, one thing that rings warning bells with me is when trainers take the horse - but do nothing about the human - just present the "finished" package back at the end of the so-called training.
I always worries me when people say that they are having problems with their horse and are sending it to so-and-so to be sorted out...
I like to get some personal recommendation about anyone who touches my horses, be they farrier, vet or whoever. I did get caught out once though, when I had some training with my horse by someone that lots of people rated really highly. After a couple of lessons I decided I wasn't comfortable and stopped taking my horse to him. (I think it was a situation where he had pre-judged my horse and had decided he needed to be "firm" with her. He seemed to do very well with particular horses, but not more dominant ones).
However - doesn't it worry you as well that in the more "conventional" world people think nothing of sending their horses off for maybe 3/4 weeks to be broken in? The horse comes back expected to work in an outline etc from the word go.

[Mehitabel]

when i was full time at the yard i used to have "problem" horses sent to me for retraining and rehabilitation, as well as youngsters to break in. i wouldn't take them on unless the owners came for lessons as well, on our horses at first and then on their own horses when they were up to it. it's completely pointless trying to break in a horse without "breaking in" it's owner as well. most of the problem horses i had were exactly like the one sue described - young, bright and confused. my biggest problem was convincing the owners that they need retraining as much as, and often more than the horse did.

[Miriam]

As Rhi can be a bit spooky and I do not feel confident enough to take her on the road by myself it was suggested to me by one of the girls on the yard to send her away for about 4-8weeks. This was where she sent her last horse to be broken in and where hse was going to send her new one. The cost would be £400 which I thought was rather cheap (all I would need to do was provide her feed). She then went onto say that he would tether the horse near a road and he would then break her in. A few weeks later we were on about breaking in and she said that this person would break her horse into drive and then she would come back bombproof.

Being the sceptical person I am I would rather Rhi was not tethered near a road. She is already in a field where there is a road running next to it. Next we already know she drives wonderfully. Also if she is going to be re-broke I would rather be involved.

Am I wrong in thinking this is rather a gimmick or is this the norm?

[Lucy J]

sounds really dodgy to me. My youngster was broken in for £90 full livery, but that was as a favour from the yard to the dealer i bought the horse from. I got her back after 2-3 weeks where she was backed and was walking and trotting - ie very green but rideable. IT took that long justto do that, I just didn't want to do the intial backing. THis chap sounds really dodgy, I would not have anyone tether my horse next to a rode. SOunds like a scam

[dolly]

There seems to be many people out there that seem to be operating under the banner of NH because they think it will be good for business, but the reality is they haven't a clue. My advice to anyone is that if some-one says they are trained by a particular person then ring that person to verify it.

somebody going on a one/two or three day course does not mean that they have trained with or have the knowledge to work with other peoples horses.

No proffessional whether it be Heather Moffatt, Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell etc would mind some body phoning them to check things out, at the end of the day it is their reputation that is being used.

If you want to take it one step further ask them to recommend several satisfied customers, not just one or two.

[Kerry's Partner!!]

That's what I'd call 'em. The poor horse and poor owner - and I'm sure they will be a pair among so very many.

I wonder if any of those who do this kind of thing read anything on this site????? If you do then I would suggest that if you cannot do the job right please learn how to do it right or close down OK.

[B W]

I had almost changed my mind about NH, thinking that there was too much pressure put on the horse to get him to submit etc. My horse had started to rear and buck the second I got on him but settled down after about 30 seconds. I hate that. Being a "senior citizen" I can't afford to fall. I had been taking my lovely horse into the round pen every time I rode him to get the edge off him. He knew the routine, walk this way, turn and walk that way, trot this way, turn and trot the other way, look cute, owner stops and it's over. My barn owner said not to take your horse into the round pen unless you are going to work on something specific. My horse was also posturing at me and that's a big no no. Well we went to the round pen today and it was for something specific. He trotted for 30 minutes and by the end of that time he was a different horse. No posturing at me and I took him on a trail ride and he was great. No offer of rearing or bucking when I got on him at the trail site, which is where he always bucked and reared. He was so respectful. Now I'm a believer again. I can't let my guard down with this horse. He's a sweetheart but that 10% that I didn't have of him was what was keeping us from having a wonderful relationship. As for this article about training, I've been taught that the more you kick a horse the less they listen to your leg. Also at our barn we use our seats for stop, not the rein. Too bad for this horse in question. Sounds like it will go from owner to owner with no one ever understanding what happened to the horse.

[Crystal Fire]

All we can do is encourage people to check out these "NH trainers" before they send their precious horse away to them. I should think that there are some people who read this board that fall into the category we are worried about, but they will just smile to themselves, because at the end of the day people are still giving gthem money. It's sad.

[Mossy]

The horse does train the rider, to understand him as a person, to be aware of his individual fears and worries, to pick up the cues which say" I don't feel well today" 0r "This saddle is getting tight!". We train the horse, with help, to behave in polite company. to recognise the usual commands and respond appropriately to them and generally to be acceptable. What you have at the end of this process, and a long one it is, is a partnership where each is aware of the other and each looks after the other. EG My baby girl not spooking today when we crossed the main road after I had had 1/2 pint too many during our first all day pub ride. She returned the compliment I paid her when I got off and walked beside her when she was hot and tired before we stopped for lunch.
Is care and consideration NH. Parelli, etc or indeed any "trendy label" or does it come back to old fashioned horsemanship from the days when if we did not look after our horses we got, literally, nowhere unless we walked! [and yes cruelty, ignorance and neglect was common then as well]
There are a lot of horsey "experts" of all persuasions out there who are very good and quietly get on: sometimes like cream, floating to the top and getting well known. Ther are also a lot of self styled horsey "experts" who float to the top. not like cream, and do a great deal of damage. It is only by asking, being selective, and trusting our horses' and our own gut instincts that we can sort out which is which.