When is a pure bred a pure bred????

[Nik-n-Kia]

Well I was having a conversation with some people at my work who like me did biology and human biology at school and uni/college and we were talking about black hair and blue eyes in humans which are strange traits to get due to recession and dominance issues.

Well me being me and horsey mad managed to change the discussion onto horses. So first of all we talked about how 'PURITY' comes about. I explained abit about breeds and one of the girls pointed out that no breed that began with two or more ancestors can ever be classed as pure as there are too many genetic differences and I am not talking about similar horses being bred together.

We were talking about TBs and WB and other certain breeds and she and a few others said that there can be no such thing as a pure TB as they have too many different types bred into them to make them what they are and that is why you get different types of TB.

She said the same of WB. This was all after I went on my break and got her details from the net.

So all you HORSEY genetics peeps what do you make of it??? I dont want arguments I just want what you think makes a pure bred horse?? Is it two of the same bred together or is it other factors??

Nikki xxxxx

PS we actually work in a call centre and it was a slow night lol;):D

[pineapple]

interesting point. TB and ARabs are ment to be some of the purest breeds but yet there are such huge variations. for example the show type of arab and the stronger more stocky type.....

[Mehitabel]

a closed studbook is important -the WB breeds have 'open' studbooks, which mean that TB, arab or anglo-arabs can be accepted into the studbook and their offspring classed as 'pure' hanoverian, for instance. so no, Wbs are not even remotely a pure breed.

the native breeds and TB are better examples, as they've had closed studbooks for a long time now. the last outside influence onte new forest breed was in victorian times - welshes, arabs, TBs, hackneys. the welsh breeds ae arab, roadster cob and hackney in them too.

dales and fells are 'purer' - no outside influence in there for a long time, and exmoors are the purest native breed. they are isolated from other breeds in the wild, and hae neer been extensively crossbred, and the crossbreds haven't been instroduced back into the main herds. that's why exmoors are all bay, no white markings, the mealy noses.

[ambatt]

Type and purity are different issues. In stock breeding terms 'pure' means no new additional blood i.e a closed herd or studbook as Mehitabel has explained above.

Within a 'pure' breed, for example the Arab, as it has been mentioned before, there are different types i.e. the stockier Crabbet type and the refined Egyptian type, this is due to genetic diversity and is what genetics and breeding is all about. They are both pure bred and mtDNA would demonstrate their origins and breed type.

The TB has been bred in its pure form for hundreds of years; from the 18th century TB was bred to TB to create more TBs. The fact that the base stock of the breed was based on Arab, Turkmene and Barb blood before that was not important.

So I guess a purebred is a breed which has identifiable recognized listed ancestors, a closed stud book and defined characteristics.

[CER1389]

I guess the icelandic breed, within Iceland must count?
Horses aren't allowed into the country, and once they've come out of iceland then they're not allowed back in for fear of bringing in disease.
Lots of foals are bred each year but the strongest, best movers and kept and most of them are slaughtered for meat.
Obviously there are many Icelandics outside of Iceland, but it is very rare and frowned upon to cross breed them (there is the occasional, such as Wally's (?) icelandic x fjord).

I guess thats got to be an incredibly pure breed? According to legends all horses can be traced back to certain breeders. Such as chestnuts with flaxen manes and blazes can all be traced back to someone.

[ShariN]

Icelandic's are one of the most pure horses in the world due to the law's of Iceland.

Anywhere else...was easy to sneek in another breed in to help "improve" an breed.

Look at modern Day Friesians...so many think that todays Friesian are what they looked like in the middle ages....but they are anything but.
After the world wars there were only a couple of these horses left. Original..they were short, stocky ugly horses..looking nothing like they do today. Friesian's are in Roman records describing them as such.
Folks that saved the bred and improved them..making them flasher, taller with more movement and bling.
Pretty interesting doing research and finding out about a breed....more often than not it is not what one has read or been told.

[Nik-n-Kia]

I am liking the replies :)

we were talking about it again and my workmate asked me about the natives and if they are truly native. I said that there were a few breeds that were but many had been cross bred. Whether to improve or refine.

So if a breed has more than a few diferent types involved in the refinement how many generations does it take to call that breed pure???

Sorry I am sooo nosey but interested to know!! This is going to be the highlight of my working week!!!

Nikki xxxx :D

[Mehitabel]

So if a breed has more than a few diferent types involved in the refinement how many generations does it take to call that breed pure???

how long is a piece of string really. the influence can sometimes die out relatively fast, and sometimes keeps poppping up generations down the line. for instance petal's 'family' on her mum's side has a very araby face - they all have it and i can tell a relative in an instance!
i presume (although sadly the records peter out for her mum's maternal side in the 1970s - her maternal grandsire can go back to TBs and right back to the 1600s) that comes from the Victorian arab stallion whose name i can never remember who was put out onto the forest to 'improve' the breed. he didn't last long as he wasn't a wild horse and had no idea how to fight the native stallions for mares, or to survive - but he did get a few foals and you see his influence today.
TBs have had a closed studbook for at least 300 years - is that long enoug hfor your workmate for them to be considered a pure breed?

[Nik-n-Kia]

I am interested i the fact that humans can never not have throwbacks years down the line and I am intrigued to find out what the deal is with horses.

She is not meaning this as a slur on horses but genetics is interesting to me as the knowledge is constantly evolving and I can understand both her points and the points on here!!!

I love hearing what people with knowledge on the subject have to say. Just like with colour mutations.

Nikki xxxx

[Mehitabel]

as an example - this is petal's mum.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/silverlea+halina
if you click on 'corra tanty' up at the very top of the right hand column, and then fieldfare II at the top right of his page, you can see that marechal niel is decribed as a new forest pony, despite the fact that his sire, rosewater, is a TB. rosicrucian goes right back to the 3 foundation stallions of the TB breed, so he can i think bhe considered purebred. so although marechal niel is 'officially' pure NF, he isn't actually. as for picket hermit, his mum could have been anything, although probably some random forest horse.
st osmond also goes back to the foundation stallions.

then if you go back to halina's pedigree and click on ajax, further down on the right hand column, tiptop on the right was a hackney, so birthday was actually a partbred although 'officially' NF.

[ambatt]

Icelandics are indeed one of the purest breeds of horse having had no new blood added since the Althing passed a law in 930 AD prohibiting the import of any foreign stock.

This law was passed in response to the importation of 'Eastern' stock in the settlement era (circa 860 - 935 AD) the crossing of Eastern stock with the proto-Icelandic horse was a disaster.

Mongolian horses are 'pure' owing to their relative geographical isolation, also Akhal Tekes. The Przewalski horse (or Takhi) could be said to be the purest of all, but they are an evolutionary off shoot of the horse given the different number of chromosomes.

[josiex]

Well most breeds have to start from somewere i know that if you go back through any native pony stud book youll go though a line of thourobreds and then to arabs , all thoroughbreds had the arab foundation stallions such as the Godolphin arabian.


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[chev]

Welshies have hasd all sorts of influences ove the years. They are pretty much a mongrel breed.

Even more so Welsh Bs - they came into being because the WSB wanted to develop a children's pony. There were Welshies, Barb, foundation stock (mares approved as being 'of welsh type') and all sorts in there. Not to mention crossing between the sections.

[Wally]

Frances and I have been involved in an archeo-genetic study of horses.. The tests are still ongoing, they are just running the Shetland genes ATM and comparing them with other Norse breeds.

Once the data is complete I'm sure it will be published and we can point you to the site where the data can be read.