Parelli question

[laura jeanne]

Does he practice any technique similar to join-up?

[Harry Hobbes]

Yes.

He calls it the Circle Game.

If you analyze what is really happening in the game, you'll find the principles and concepts found within Join Up, as they are universal. Parelli just applies a different method to the principles and concepts, so his game looks different than Roberts'.

Best regards,
Harry

[laura jeanne]

Thanks Harry. I don't think they formally demonstrated that one in the clinic.

[jinglejoys]

I think they probably did but you didn't reckognise it:) Depending on the equine there is not the pressure as its the equines job to go out in the circle and stay there and the person in the centre doesn't move.
After a short time the equine is invited in.
Hope I've got this right in describing it I'm only a beginner myself:)

[laura jeanne]

jj, yeah, they probably did but already the whole thing is a little hazy. I wish I had taken notes.

[brackensmum]

Hi there,

To be honest i don't think that join-up is anything like the circle game

With join-up the horse is in a circle to the end of their flight instinct then given the opportunity to Join-up and accept the person as their leader.- this is all done without a line or headcollar.

In the circle game the horse is send out on the circle it is the horses responsibility to then keep going at the indicated gait, untill invited to stop by disengaging the hind quarters. This is done at level one anyway, on-line.



They are both facinating and effective but very different in their goals.

[Crystal Fire]

I'm not even sure about the use of the word "invited" ;)
In Join Up you send the horse away at liberty, wait for certain very clear signals that it wants to come in, then let it.
In the Circling Game you work (at first!) on-line. You use the cues you have already established in the Yo Yo and Driving games to send the horse away, have them circle round you, then you "drive" the hind end away to turn them in. So the movement is controlled by the person throughout. When you start to work at liberty you do exactly the same but without the rope. You do it first in a round pen, but progress to doing it in the open.
I think the closest Pat P comes to Join Up is the You Can't Catch me stuff, where you send the horse away until you can "see one eye", then invite them in, but send them away again if you can't see any eyes... see one or two eyes, walk back and invite them in... etc etc...
The end result of all of the above can often be the same though. :D

[AengusOg]

You see this is one of the many reasons I can't endorse PP horsemanship.........

"have them circle you, then you "drive" the hind end away to turn them in"

Now what good is that when you begin to lunge the horse, and he won't go properly because he wants to turn to face you the whole time?

Surely, if the handler was able to think far enough into the future they would see that this method is actually creating a behaviour which has to be corrected, whereas if they had not used PP's 'circling game' the problem would not be there in the first place.

Give me strength! :rolleyes:

[Crystal Fire]

That tends to be one area where Parelli and "conventional" clash a bit - lunging, but only in early training. However, Parelli students tend not to be hung up on lunging, they work the horse on-line, but just choose to ask their horse to face them when it stops, rather than to stay out straight. That doesn't mean run over you, it means just turn and face... Not sure why that is such a huge problem to be honest.
However, as you get on in the programme a bit then your signal to ask the horse to stop becomes more subtle, and you can decide how you want your horse to stop. If you want it to stop and face you ask for that, if you want it to stop and keep facing the same way, you do that, if you want it to stop and then back up along the circle or line - you do that.
There's more than one way to lunge. :D

[AengusOg]

:eek: :D:D:D

[ameliet1971]

That tends to be one area where Parelli and "conventional" clash a bit - lunging, but only in early training. However, Parelli students tend not to be hung up on lunging, they work the horse on-line, but just choose to ask their horse to face them when it stops, rather than to stay out straight. That doesn't mean run over you, it means just turn and face... Not sure why that is such a huge problem to be honest.
However, as you get on in the programme a bit then your signal to ask the horse to stop becomes more subtle, and you can decide how you want your horse to stop. If you want it to stop and face you ask for that, if you want it to stop and keep facing the same way, you do that, if you want it to stop and then back up along the circle or line - you do that.
There's more than one way to lunge. :D

Thanks for taking the time to explain the circling game in more detail Crystalfire. :)

It sounds like it would be much more interesting for the horse than lunging, especially the more the handler progresses and improves.

Do you think many ex Parelli students ever go back to lunging their horses?

(I might start bombarding you with questions soon, so apologies in advance). :D

[wonkeywoody]

Corret ameliet. well for me anyway! I dont have reason to lunge now - its soooooooooooooooooooo boring! As CF says there's far more to the circling game. Mine, at liberty, will walk trot canter stop etc etc as per lunging but will also back up on the circle/change direction (this can be done much more easily than on the lunge and you dont need to stop to do it either). Having more range of things to do makes it more enjoyable for the horse and time flies if you are both enjoying a session! Its also easy to have some jumps poles etc out so these can be incorperated.(I did continue to lunge when I first started NH and had no adverse probs with horse but it became so obvious that horse not enjoying it!)

[Joyscarer]

I don't have an issue and I do both. I am clear in my signals to Joy and she knows when I am asking her to disengage hindquarters and waits to be asked so no conflict there for me :)

[Crystal Fire]

Aengusog has just made me laugh and splutter tea everywhere! :D
If you take a Parelli trained horse and wave a whip, or even a folded up rope, at it's hind end, it will almost certainly disengage and face you. That is where some lunging people (and some Monty Roberts Join-Uppy people) can come unstuck. It's just a matter of understanding how the horse has been taught, but I guess that's always going to be the case.
Personally, as an ex-Parelli student and very current NH student, no I never lunge as in what we in the UK tend to think of lunging. That is cavesson on, round and round in circles, maybe with some side reins or stuff. (Bear in mind if you talked to a cowboy about lunging he would mean something different to that anyway.) Boring boring boring. But when you can move freely around a field of obstacles with your horse moving rythmically around you on a 22ft line, changing gait, changing direction, jumping over things - why would you ever want to? I have had to work a horse on-line to stretch back muscles, and in the end I used a soft bungee on her rope halter, and a bandage around her back end to encourage her to work down, but we still moved about with some imagination, and did plenty of straight lines, which are more beneficial in that situation anyway.
I can show you a video of some lunging if you like, although many have seen it before (so sorry to bore you lot! :D). Some people notice a lack of "correct" working in the clip. Yes, there is a reason for this. This is the last time this mare was worked like this, and taken on the last day I ever rode her. Problems occured later that caused me to call the vet back, and kissing spine and pelvic problems were finally diagnosed. I just don't have lots of vid to show you, so it has to be this one, but don't worry, I don't see this as a sad video, it makes me happy to see her so lovely. :)
This was my version of the what Parelli calls is Clover Leaf pattern. We could do it at walk, trot and canter. I found it particularly useful when I backed this horse, because when I was working on steering and concentration, I had something familiar to work her around.
Watch this space... I will find...

[Crystal Fire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y
P.S. I have managed to curb that Parelli head dipping thing these days!

[ameliet1971]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y
P.S. I have managed to curb that Parelli head dipping thing these days!

Wow, that was utterly amazing Crysal Fire, there really is a BIG difference between that and lunging isn't there? Both you and your horse certainly seemed to be enjoying every minute of it!! :)

Is the clover leaf pattern an extension of the circling game? if so, then IMO those who can't endorse it must be very narrow minded. ;):D

[Spoof]

P.S. I have managed to curb that Parelli head dipping thing these days!

Do you mean where she would dip her head when going around the obstacles?

[ameliet1971]

Do you mean where she would dip her head when going around the obstacles?

Not sure, but I think Crystal Fire mean't dipping her own head to disengage her horses hindquarters. :)

.

[Crystal Fire]

Fire's dipping her head just to have a look at where the block is, and sometimes to do a bit of "snakey head" playing with me. I however am dipping my head to disengage her hindquarters, as said above. It looks daft and you don't need to do it. :D
The Clover Leaf is an extension of the Circling Game, but really once you've got Level 1 knocked on the head it's all an extension of the games. There are some drawbacks to the Clover Leaf pattern, it was(is?) normally suggested as a pattern to calm over-impulsive horses in ridden work. It can be over-used though, if the horse was motor-biking around the pattern and patently not calming their impulsive attitude then there wasn't a lot of point in keeping on doing it. Some people did, and if you can imagine someone over-working the pattern, on a horse that was working on a loose rein... that could have some nasty physical implications for the horse.
I believe that there is much more awareness now in Parelli of over-use of patterns, so don't think you would be recommended to use them in quite the same way that me and some of my mates were.
Although I learnt to do what is shown in this vid with Parelli, with this particular horse I learnt to tone down my approach considerably, and it was probably this horse more than any that made me question the use of phases. Several instructors have worked with her and stressed her. Maybe it was lucky that she got a bone chip in her leg at 3 yo and had nearly a year with no "Parelli". When we came back to it I had studied a bit more widely, and my much quieter approach got us instantly much better results.
These days I work much less on pushing hindquarters away etc, and more on being with the horse and influencing them as subtly as possible with my body. There is so much to learn...

[ameliet1971]

These days I work much less on pushing hindquarters away etc, and more on being with the horse and influencing them as subtly as possible with my body. There is so much to learn...

My sentiments exactly and your right about there being so much to learn, but that's part of the fun and so much worth it when you do hit one of those lightbulb moments. :)

[wonkeywoody]

CF - mine's like yours- too much and you stress them. I've learnt to be more sensitive towards him and its paying off. Every horse will be different and I suppose thats where the 'savvy' bit comes in. We as humans have to be perceptive to whats happening in that moment.... Good for us tho'. I certainly think it has helped me be a better horseperson and a better person too.