Ground tying

[laura jeanne]

I've been ground tying my RS horse for grooming and tacking up lately because I don't think he likes the cross ties. He does stand pretty nicely but I'm wondering if it's okay for him to move around a little or if he is just supposed to stay exactly in place. It's not a big deal but he will take a step or two over and smell the grooming bucket or check out my bag for treats (!!) or try to touch noses with one of the horses in a stall (the stalls are lining the two long sides of the arena which is the place you have to tack up). I usually just gently move him back to where I first put him.

It doesn't bother me but I just don't know if it's something they should not be doing when ground tied or if being ground tied means they just don't try to run off. He can be a little spooky and gets tense when put in the cross ties. They are the kind that are velcro so that if he pulls back, the straps come undone and he has done that twice. He stands nice and quietly and relaxed when just ground tied.

Thanks!

[julia gulia]

They really should stand absolutely still in the one spot when ground tied. If they take one step then they'll think it's ok to take two or three or four ( know this from past experience :p)so ideally, you want them standing in one spot. He also needs to keep his head up when he is ground tied . I always check to make sure the horse is completely balanced before I cue them to stand. :)

[Harry Hobbes]

I just don't know if it's something they should not be doing when ground tied or if being ground tied means they just don't try to run off. Ground tying is an activity wherein the horse waits in a place untied until the human returns to the horse, such as return from tacking up a fence or doctoring a cow. That is, it doesn't "run off."

"Waits in a place" does not mean that the horse shouldn't look around, move around, or should stand like a statue, any more than a horse tied to hitching rail, or in cross-ties. (The horse is ground tied only because there's no good place to tie it; for whatever reason.) It can and will move its feet to get comfortable; just as long as it doesn't leave the immediate vicinity. (Indeed, we want it to take a break and get comfortable while we're over there getting the well working; or whatever.)

If you want the horse to stand still and not move, then you'll have to train the horse to do just that: don't move. But that's not "ground tying;" rather, that's "stand still." Lots of ways to do that, and you've already begun one effective way.

Best regards,
Harry

[julia gulia]

Ground tying is an activity wherein the horse waits in a place untied until the human returns to the horse, such as return from tacking up a fence or doctoring a cow. That is, it doesn't "run off."

"Waits in a place" does not mean that the horse shouldn't look around, move around, or should stand like a statue, any more than a horse tied to hitching rail, or in cross-ties. (The horse is ground tied only because there's no good place to tie it; for whatever reason.) It can and will move its feet to get comfortable; just as long as it doesn't leave the immediate vicinity. (Indeed, we want it to take a break and get comfortable while we're over there getting the well working; or whatever.)

If you want the horse to stand still and not move, then you'll have to train the horse to do just that: don't move. But that's not "ground tying;" rather, that's "stand still." Lots of ways to do that, and you've already begun one effective way.

Best regards,
Harry

Harry, I'm curious now. If you are ok with the horse moving when ground tied then how much movement is too much and how do you transfer that information to the horse? Of course they can look around and shift their weight but why encourage steps when you want the horse to stay put?
Or would that be my call as the trainer of said horse ? I don't want my horse taking steps when he's ground tied , no problem with him looking around but no steps.
Would love to hear your thoughts on how to train for ground tying. Always something new to learn :D That's what's great about horses. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

[laura jeanne]

I'm comfortable with him just being curious and looking around at things and maybe investigating the things around him. In fact, it seems much more friendly, like we are doing something together and not just me forcing him to stand with his head tied.

Julia, why do you think the horse should have his head up?
I'm not going off and leaving him, just grooming him and tacking up.

[Harry Hobbes]

If you are ok with the horse moving when ground tied then how much movement is too much and how do you transfer that information to the horse? You get to choose how much when you train.

I typically allow the amount of movement that the horse would normally make while tied, which basically means the horse has to stay in a small area. The strategy behind this is that the horse comes to view being tied and ground tying as the same in terms of how much it can move. In essence, once trained, it does not differentiate.

This amount of movement will allow the horse to graze, and if I'm away from the horse for several minutes or more, then it will move more to graze. (We ground tie on the range, where there is nothing to tie to.)

The key point is that ground tying is all about teaching the horse to wait for my return, rather than not move. That is, the objective is for the horse to wait for me; I couldn't care less if it moves - just as long as it waits for me and I don't have to catch it.

Here's the "how to:"

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30762

The horse will learn the limits you allow by the corrections you make; just like humans.

Best regards,
Harry

[julia gulia]

Thank you Harry :D

[julia gulia]

I'm comfortable with him just being curious and looking around at things and maybe investigating the things around him. In fact, it seems much more friendly, like we are doing something together and not just me forcing him to stand with his head tied.

Julia, why do you think the horse should have his head up?
I'm not going off and leaving him, just grooming him and tacking up.

It's not something I thought up Laura Jeanne. That's something some trainers write about when covering the hows and whys to ground tie.

http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_training/ground_tie.htm

Must admit that I've found that when the head lowers, something else is usually about to happen :D Like..oooo is there grass around here, maybe I'll just have a look around to find out.:p Whatever works for us and the horse Is what matters I suppose.
So much to learn, so little time :D

[AengusOg]

There is a huge difference between a horse on the range, 'waiting' for the rider while he works, where it may be some time before it is required, and so should be expected to graze/switch off a bit..........and a horse which is required to stand fairly still so that it can be safely groomed/tacked up.

To produce the latter should involve gently but firmly re-placing it if it tries to move off, without getting too pedantic about any slight movement when it is 'stationed'.

The man on the range has to rely on his horse being there or thereabouts when he needs it and, I suspect, is not too worried about controlling the horse to the same extent as someone on a yard.

It's regular training and routine which makes horses reliable.....oh, and time.

[LodgeRopes]

Another great thread with links really worth reading and having a bit of a think about.
I guess we are closer to Harry H's posts when it comes to ground tying. We dont expect ahorse to be pinned to one bit of earth, but we do expect them to hang around within "cooee' of the spot where we dropped the reins or leadrope.
Funny thing is we dont know how we trained the horses to ground tie!!!!
We have tried to work out how we did it, and this is the best we have come up with.
Around 12 years ago we heard about Pat Parelli and NH. we got onboard for a few years. So thats were we started to look for the hidden ground tying lessons. The best we can come up with is that the PNH 7 games taught the horse to give to pressure,active/passive or physical/implied, this together with the little hint that if you are saddleing or grooming, if the horse wanders you go with him still grooming or whatever and the horse soon learns that wandering off does not relieve the pressure/hassle (or however the horse sees it) so may as well stand still. Both seem to contribute to the result we have achieved without any specific training.

Horses seem to be able to tell the difference between 'yes boss thats a great idea to lope now' time and 'Its the weekend but i'm on call' time. Make sure you and the horse know what time it is, as this will affect the result.

looking fwd to other posts on this thread
Rob
and Harry, I dont even know how to spell s## b##### anymore:D

[Crystal Fire]

Yes... and I just reinforce the stuff that Rob mentioned by standing on the end of the rope if they move off too much. :D

[joosie]

I don't want to put a dampener on things, because I do think that ground-tying is an excellent thing for a horse to learn and I recognise how useful it can be in certain situations. But you mentioned that it's your RS horse - have you been given permission to have him ground-tied?? I personally would be worried about doing it in a RS, or in fact in any yard with other horses and people around, because of the safety risk posed by a loose horse... especially since you said that you have to tack up alongside the arena. One of our yard rules is that horses must be properly tied up whenever they are out of their stable or paddock - and we made this rule after a livery's ground-tied horse got spooked and ran straight through a children's lesson going on outside.

[laura jeanne]

joosie, I have only started ground tying after my RI (and owner of the horse) said that she tried it and he was very good. There is hardly ever anyone at my yard so that's okay too. I know what you mean though, you always have to be careful and expect the unexpected!!

Chrystal Fire, I have stepped on the rope a couple of times.

[Harry Hobbes]

...and Harry, I dont even know how to spell s## b##### anymoreNot to worry; I'm just funnin' ya. :p

But last week, I had more fun: I was helping my rancher friends trailer some bred cows over to the auction at Three Forks. While driving over, I related the story of your post.

I ambled into the story slowly, pacing my delivery so that I spoke the phrase "sod buster" with just the right subtlety, at just the right moment.

When I spoke the phrase, all heads in the truck immediately and simultaneously turned to me to see if I was serious. The look on their faces was priceless. :p

At that reaction, which was straight out of the movies, I broke out laughing. We all had a good laugh, and resolved to buy the second round at the Commercial Bar.

So I had a little more fun, but got them thinking that we ought to have you over to help out at the next calf branding. Calf brandings are social events where friends come over to help, and we work hard in a neighborly sort of way; and the rancher's wife puts on a spread (i.e., dinner) that rounds out the day.

In their own way, I think they'd like to have a little fun with you by surreptitiously serving mountain oysters for dinner, but instead telling you that they're "Swedish Meatballs." ;)

Them rancher folks sure do have a dry sense of humor (and I hope you like "Swedish Meatballs").

Best regards,
Harry; and looking forward to you coming through these parts.

[Harry Hobbes]

...you mentioned that it's your RS horse - have you been given permission to have him ground-tied??No. You misunderstand.

I do not need permission to train the horse simultaneously when other horses are present. Rather, it is my responsibility to train the horse when other horses are present (else it will be unmanageable in the presence of other horses.)

The fact that there are many other horses/riders training in the arena at the same time is a pre-condition of effective training. To contrast: any horse/rider that cannot train in an arena containing other horses/riders is in serious need of training itself; probably along the lines of "socialization."

If my horse will not ground tie when many other horses are moving around, then it is not trained; therefore, I need a crowded environment to complete the training.

If other riders are so unfocused, cavalier or out of "control" that they allow their mounts to run into my horse (that is just standing there in the center), then they are in serious need of training themselves (perhaps with the application of Operant Conditioning out behind the barn.)
I personally would be worried about doing it in a RS, or in fact in any yard with other horses and people around, because of the safety risk posed by a loose horse... Loose horses are not a safety issue, else we would not allow horses to run loose in the wild (as in Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming or Montana) or in pastures, on the range, and in paddocks; rather, they'd all be tied up, so that humans could feel safe.

Human stupidity and ignorance is the safety issue; and I think that you'll find that all the rules in the world have not improved that situation.

In reality, "safety" resides solely between the ears (of the human); or it doesn't. Assigning "safety" to the horse or to situations, or designating safety through regulation of actions rather than results is an abdication of human responsibility: one is regulating actions, not results.

We are safe training this way in a crowded arena because I operate safely while in the arena. And if something untoward happens, then it's my responsibility, not everyone via rules. (Not to say that others do not operate safely; but that's their issue, and I only correct them if and when they do something stupid that affects me or mine.)
One of our yard rules is that horses must be properly tied up whenever they are out of their stable or paddock - and we made this rule after a livery's ground-tied horse got spooked and ran straight through a children's lesson going on outside.Fortunately, in the equine context, I'm not subject to arbitrary rule-making by people that want to saddle the culture with arbitrary rules (that do not address the core issue, e.g., "spooking").

But back to you: Notice that the rule DOES NOT say "Horses may not spook" (which is the core problem.) So you made a rule regarding the symptom, but didn't fix the problem, correct?

Why on earth did your school not write a rule stating that riders may not have spooky horses?

Best regards,
Harry

[Lili & Morgan]

Why on earth did your school not write a rule stating that riders may not have spooky horses?

Best regards,
Harry

:D :D :D

HH you make me laugh! It is the culture clash between people having horses for working and people having horses as "enjoyment".

Here, I am in a yard run by farmers, so they see horses in a very different way than people who have horses for pleasure.
The farmers are all in Western riding, the others are more into English riding. The ground manners of the horses from each groups are blatantly different, it is so shocking that it is funny :D

But It is very hard to convince English riders that it is only a question of traning to help the horse to spook in place.

I have no problem with horses spooking, it is there nature. But "Stop and turn and face" or "spook-in-place" can be trained.

You would be terrified, if you came visiting a European yard ;)

[joosie]

HH, I must say that I find your comments rude and patronising, with a strong whiff of superiority about them. Despite what you seem to think, I do know a little bit about horses, but maybe in more of a practical way than your seemingly "textbook" experience.

Loose horses are not a safety issue, else we would not allow horses to run loose in the wild (as in Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming or Montana) or in pastures, on the range, and in paddocks; rather, they'd all be tied up, so that humans could feel safe.

Firstly, what an unbelievably absurd thing to say. We’re not talking about wild horses!!! We're talking about domesticated horses, whose natural instincts and behaviour can cause real problems and put themselves, people, and other horses in danger. Maybe that doesn’t fit your ideals, but that’s the way it is.

I do not need permission to train the horse simultaneously when other horses are present.


I'm not subject to arbitrary rule-making by people that want to saddle the culture with arbitrary rules (that do not address the core issue, e.g., "spooking").


Notice that the rule DOES NOT say "Horses may not spook" (which is the core problem.) So you made a rule regarding the symptom, but didn't fix the problem, correct?

Secondly, this "rule" thing. To start with, you have a rather strange interprepation of the kind of “permission” I’m talking about. I have worked on a livery yard without any rules, and the whole place was a shambols... accidents and injuries occurred way too frequently, and in most cases could have been avoided simply through the presence of common sense and a few basic safety precautions. I now work at a place with these new-fangled rule things, and there has not been a single rider injury in it's ten-year history.
So you think that you can train a horse not to spook?? Ever?? Right... good luck with that. From my own experiences and common sense I believe that a spooky horse who is TIED UP is much less likely to get free and hurt someone than one who spooks whilst unrestrained.


If other riders are so unfocused, cavalier or out of "control" that they allow their mounts to run into my horse (that is just standing there in the center), then they are in serious need of training themselves (perhaps with the application of Operant Conditioning out behind the barn.)

So, you reckon that you’re so brilliant with horses that nothing will ever ever ever go wrong, because you’ve trained your horse to true perfection, to the point that it will resist its natural instincts in absolutely any situation, and if anything were to happen it would be everyone else’s fault but yours, right?? You talk about other people having poorly-trained horses and making silly mistakes, as if you are the perfect one and what you are teaching your horse is the only thing that matters. Unfortunately a horse’s training is NOT a standalone issue... when you’re teaching your horse something new, the rest of the world does not just stop. I'm not saying it's not okay to train your horse in the presence of others - believe it or not, I do know what "socialisation" is, and that horses' behaviour is affected by the behaviour of those around them... but doing things the way you want to without considering the safety of anybody else is just selfish, in my book.

To the point. I often find your posts interesting and informative, but in this case I have to say that I find some of your comments a perfect example of the carefree attitude about safety around horses that causes so many people in the horse world to be hurt and killed. In an ideal world we would all have perfectly trained horses who did everything exactly the way we wanted them to. However, this is NOT the ideal world... in the REAL world, horses are not perfect and they do cause accidents. It is for that reason that we need to take safety precautions, like tying horses up, and closing the field gate, and bolting stable doors. In order to train our horses well, we have to take on some level of discipline ourselves, and part of that means accepting that we do not keep our horses in a utopia. That's why rules can sometimes be a good thing.

[laura jeanne]

Harry, you are lucky that you have your own personal space and freedom to train your horses. I can see what Joosie means because the set up at most barns don't give you the freedom to do whatever you want.

For instance, at the barn I'm at now, there are quite large paddocks all fenced off, a large outdoor dressage arena with no fencing, a very small round pen, and a large covered arena, and then the rest of the property is open but pretty much all visible to the arenas.

I can't do anything with my horse in the paddock because my RI's other two horses are in there and they are buddies and whenever I go in the field to get him, they immediately put their ears back and chase him around, spinning around to kick out at him. The round pen has been half full of water lately. I don't dare let him loose on the rest of the property since he is not mine and anything could happen.

I bought my horse a big exercise ball but there is really no place to play with him. Can;t do it in the paddock or the round pen (water was mostly gone yesterday so there's hope there) so I have been just kicking it in front of me and having him follow in the open space on the property. Every time it stops, I have him walk up and let his nose on it (saw this in the Parelli clinic) and have rolled it over to touch his front legs. The thing that bothers me is that I have to have him on the lead rope (it's not very long tho) so the whole exercise is kind of contrived and not very much fun. Plus there has been one person riding in the arena while I have been there lately and I can just feel the annoyance emanating from her when I have the ball out and she is trying to school her horse.

So not having your own place or horse makes it hard to do the kind of training that you take for granted!! One has to constantly think of how evrything you do affects the other people around who may not have any interest or knowledge at all in having a well-trained horse.

[Spoof]

Interesting thread here.

I have always trained my horses to ground-tie, I believe over time it leads to a calmer, more level-headed horse.

Different horses take different approaches. Some you can allow to drift a little, others need to stay planted. I've found the more dominant the horse, the less movement I can allow, keeps them focused on me and not the other horses/feed/whatever.

Laura, you are seeing the same thing in your RS horse that I see in a lot of the barns here. If you take an insecure horse and teach them enough to ground-tie, the difference is amazing. Funny thing is, more often than not it is the owners who can't handle leaving them ground tied because of some innate fear they have. I find myself working more on training the owners than the horses nowadays.

So you think that you can train a horse not to spook?? Ever??

This got me to thinking... No, but interestingly enough I haven't had a horse I've worked with in any stage of ground tying spook. Or run off. Oh, I've had them calmly drift away, and I've noticed and called them back, but nothing like everyone fears and worries about. The worst accidents I've seen have been with crosstied or tied horses. The horse panics, is trapped, struggles harder, busts free and is in such a state of lather that it damages itself and property.

I like the challenge of these horses, the worse the horse more I feel like I've helped. I mostly work with TB's, arab's and gaiteds, the hot headed bunch. Keeps life interesting!

[AengusOg]

I agree that cross-tying panics horses.

I've seen a few do it, and the one time it happened here was when I cross-tied a four year old who had a habit of leaning back till he broke something.

When I cross-tied him he totally freaked.

When I freed him and tied him to a rope between two rings he was fine, and has never pulled again, and is now always tied that way.

[LodgeRopes]

Hi Lili,
Dont mention the word 'farmer' in the same sentance as 'horse' when harry is around, I did once and it resulted in a lynch party cashing in aluminium cans to raise enough cash for air tickets to Australia, with the sole aim of 're educating' me :D

Mountain oysters....hmmmhmmmm, as an australian I am proud to say that as a race we can eat anything as long as we have 2 slices of bread and enough ketchup, and a beer or six to wash it all down..
Around here we have more sheep than cattle, sheep oysters are called 'sweet breads' as the locals crumb them then fry.
Harry, thank you for the invite, but i feel there is a good chance that i would leave the branding yard with the smell of burning human flesh in my nostrals and a new 'decoration' on my butt!

Back to the thread.....
I can appreciate the concern voiced by joosie, having seen a few disasters in my time, but to suggest Harry's comments were " rude and patronising, with a strong whiff of superiority" may be a little harsh. I look at it this way, on a forum such as this, members raise issues wanting input, ideally from someone with more knowledge and experience. if this means superior, that is one interpretation, but Harry does not need me to defend him. harry is harry and he has contributed a lot to this forum, and i for one would never take offence at anything he posts, after all it is just one persons opinion, and opinions are like rusty horse trailers, everyone has one.

But it did liven up the thread:D

cheers
Rob

[Lili & Morgan]

Hi Lili,
Dont mention the word 'farmer' in the same sentance as 'horse' when harry is around, I did once and it resulted in a lynch party cashing in aluminium cans to raise enough cash for air tickets to Australia, with the sole aim of 're educating' me :D

Ah but Rob, I am speaking of my Italian framers. you should see the collection of HUGE tractors who come in our yard. The horses are all tractor/trailer-proof :D
And the best horseman at my yard is a 68 yrs old Sicilian gentleman. He rode a mule before he could walk, and he worked on the farm in Sicily with horses and mules and cows etc ... he used to lead "mules-train" to the twon to sell the cereals. He has just fantastic stories of an old time without tractor.

I have seen him handling horses on the yard. He is just such a great horseman.

To go back to the thread, I think it is a question of tolerance. Harry must face situation than us, European and Aussies will never face, and on the other hand we do stuffs he will never.

Joosie - on the western forum you were wondering about Western riding. I think it is just different. different philosophy, needs, and principles.

[Lili & Morgan]

And to add about ground-tying, this Sicilian-old-gentleman ground-tied the RS fizzy TB mare by the walker while he picked her feet up, before setting her in the walker.

Her lead rope was resting on her withers. This Tb mare has NO ground-tying training.

How did he do it???

I think he just asked her to stand while he picked her feet. :cool:
A real horseman ....