yearling training

[Lifetry]

I have a friend with a 16 mo. old filly. What type of training should she be doing with this horse at this age? The filly has had a rough beginning, as she and her mom were found at a auction where the mare was sold for slaughter. The filly was saved, but very sick. Now she is healthy, still a bit small and onery as can be! A very strong personality.
My mare adopted this little one and has taught her about being a horse, but the filly still has some bad manners. She has been known to rear and come down on top of her person, she frequently kicks at her 15 year old owner for picking up her feet and you do not want to mess with this little girl when she is eating!
Should we be teaching her to longe? I've ponied her a bit, but my mare is not keen on that idea and gets annoyed with the filly tagging along so close. HELP!

Thanks, Melissa

[¶¤Lil Cowgirl¤¶]

Hey!

I have a 15 month old filly and she will walk on a lead line, trots on a lead, backs up, stands, whoa's, "walks on", turns circles, walks over poles, goes around barrels, she picks up her feet, stands still for vet/farrier, will have towels on her, plastic bags shook in front of her face, crosstie, and she does round pen work and extensive halter work thru our training system such as stuff like i can move her hips by looking at them... lol....

But my horse was handle since the day she was born and has not been thru as much s*** as your friends horse.... :( its a pitty what some horses have to go through.

[Gracie]

Get the yearling firmilar with as much stuff as possible at a young age. In hand, walk her through small trails, Show her cars and the road. Teach her to stand. And learn different voice commands. But also remember, to keep your sessions short. Youngsters have short tension spands so you don't want to make it too hard on them! Good luck

[Mehitabel]

at 16 months, she should definitely be learning some discipline and manners, especially if she's already got some bad habits. don't lunge her though, as her legs and bones are still growing and lungeing will put too much stress on them, and will lead to problems later. i wouldn't advise doing round pen work at anything other than walk at this age for the same reasons.
the strong personality is probably a result of what the poor thing's been through, she's had to be tough to get through it. i have a pony like this due to past abuse as well!
does she really trust you and your friend? if she doesn't, that's what you need to work on first. she needs to be handled by someone firm enough not to let her kick and rear, but sympathetic enough not to scare her or treat her roughly when she does, as it's probably a defensive action.
you and her owner could start leading her at walk and trot, getting her to back up, stand still etc. as for her legs, start with just stroking or brushing the legs, with lots of praise when she lets you do it without a fuss, and not givign up when she makes a fuss. when she learns that nothing bad happens when she lets you brush her legs, and that kicking doesn't make it stop, then start just picking them up and putting them straight down. gradually hold them for longer, and start picking out and tapping the hooves, getting her ready for when she'll be shod or trimmed. it's really important to go overboard on the praise when she's good, (in all her handling, not just with her feet) and not to give up when she's naughty. don't shout or make a fuss, just keep quiet and keep doing it, and the moment she behaves, stop and give her lots of praise.
being funny about letting people pick up her feet is quite natural - horses are prey animals and rely on their legs to get away from danger, so it's a big deal to let someone hold their legs up so they can't get away.

you also need to make it as much fun as possible for her - she's still a baby, and needs to enjoy learning or she'll resent it. as gracie said, keep your training sessions short (5 - 10 minutes) otherwise she'll get bored and startlooking for mischief!

[Wally]

Es just about puts it in a nutshell, try to ignor the bad behaviour, insist that you get what you asked for, and give huge amounts of praise when she does as she is asked. This can mean a few bruises along the way and dogged determination. Never give up and leave things on a sour note, always leave on a good, positive action.

She HAS to learn that you as top horse have the absolute right to mess with her when she's eating although this is one thing I will never do, allow my horses to be hassled when eating, but if this is an issue it has to be dealt with before she hurts someone.

It seems like a big task, but little by little by constant reinforcing of requests and rewards she'll learn to trust and then respect you.

By the way when Hákon was a baby, well 3 years old it took Frances and I 2 hours just to pick up one foot!......later when he started having shoes on, on a bad day it would be 3 hours to get a set on him, it seemed like this was going to last forever, by 5 solid as a rock. Now at 7 you could do what you like to him, with Brass Band playing and the charge of the light brigade going past , just ask Frances about the blood sweat and tears, but it worked and he's a cracking horse now. Even she will admit he was a brat as a youngster. You will get there and you will get out what you put in.

[Lifetry]

Thanks for all your input and ideas.

I guess I need to remember to work with "Hope" for several short lessons per day. The filly does respect me and consequently will behave much better when I handle her. Perhaps it also helps that I am an adult.

Her owners family are all 4 afraid of the little beast but cannot afford to send her to a trainer. Besides, do people even send yearlings to trainers? Anyway, that is why I have stepped in to help - no one else would. I am horse knowledgeable but have limited experience with young horses and none with such a powerful little personality.

Thanks again, and please continue to add ideas even if this is an old thread by the time you read it!

[Wally]

If you have a yearlling with such a reputation, it is not uncommon for folk to send them to behaviour experts. Act while they are young and you'll have a better adult.

If you know nags then you'll be fine. Just remember that the best horses often have the biggest personalities and in consequense are not the easiest to train. Stick with it, be firm and fair and kind and you'll have a winner.

A horse like that will know when there is a chink in the armour of the person handling them and will use a crowbar on it given the opportunity.

[Shady_Indigo]

how many other horses do you keep the filly with? Younger horses learn alot of things from being in a group of horses out in a paddock because they learn that they are at the end of the pecking order, older horses teach them alot about manners.

[Desiree]

Snaky fillies, dont you just love them?!

At sixteen months our horses will have had AT LEAST two weeks solid work - broken in and doing between twenty and forty minutes a day trot work. Don't worry about people telling you that they're too young at that age. Most horse people have no idea of the amount of work a horse can cope with (and I reiterate COPE with and thrive on, not do under duress).

We have never had a horse break down becasue it was made do a bit of work at a young age - in fact by giving their legs a good foundation, you are setting them up to stay sounder longer and later when they are getting a lot more work.

As I've said a million times, horses are far more fragile in the mind than they are in the body and it's all about good judgement on your part.

Go as fast as her BRAIN allows you, don't worry about the body, it will follow. And by that I mean: if she's striking and carrying on, that's not her telling you its too hard, its telling you 'i dont want to, and I'm going to see if you'll make me'. Signs that she's not coping will be a dull or yellowing coat, loss or change of appitite, dullness in the eye, depression, crib biting etc etc (ie behaviour independant of you).

Good luck with her, she sounds like a challenge, but from one who got a 'crazy filly' last year as an unhandled 2yo, do it right and they'll grow wings...

[chev]

Sorry Desiree but I (and probably quite a few others) have to strongly disagree with you on this one. You say we have no idea of how much work a youngster can cope with. I'm sorry but these opinions are based not only extensive research into how horses grow but also medical evidence - the growth plates in a horse's legs don't close until well past the age of eighteen months and until they do, working them too hard physically will (not can) do serious and irreparable damage. This damage may not be seen until years later but rest assured, it has been done.

How can you say "don't worry about the body"? Body language is how horses communicate with us! If you ignore their efforts to ask you to slow down until their coat is dull, they are depressed and so stressed they crib at eighteen months you are doing your horses great harm. The idea of training youngsters is not to push them on in the belief they can "cope" but to take each step slowly and only when the youngster is telling you its ready.

Lifetry's filly strikes because she has not been given a good, well-disciplined start. The answer is to go on as Es and Wally described; slowly, but firmly and fairly, working on discipline and trust. To push her on every time she objected until she was broken would result in just that - a broken filly, with no trust for people, just a resignation to the knowledge that no-one will listen to her and she has no choice but to go on, however hard it is for her.

There are lots of good books on how horses grow, and the fairest way to start them, please read them. What Wally and Es posted is based not only on their extensive knowledge but also on the work done on these subjects by other experienced horsemen and women.

[Desiree]

But I dont need to read any more books on the subject, I've had 20 years hands on experience - do you realise if we relied purely on 'theory' we'd have cured cancer years ago? Has it happened in practise yet?

Life and theory are two different things.

Yes, growth plates are not closed, and you can see it in their knees and often other joints. But, in 20 years none of our horses (into the hundreds now) have ever broken down OR developed injury because of the work they've had early on.

In my experience peoples horses break down or develop structural problems because of a severe lack of exercise during development to stimulate the growth properly.

I've seen I don't know how many horses aged 14months upward handle and THRIVE on plenty of work, in many different breeds.

You took my comments about indicators of stress as an experienced horse person. Do you realise how many 'horse' people, new to them, don't know that a yellowing or dry coat is a sign of stress?

When I say 'dont worry about the body' I mean don't worry about stressing the body, because if you concentrate on their mind, their body will follow. This is a basic tenet of horsemanship.

Of course you watch body language, its part of every second of being around a horse. Striking can be habit, it can be attention seeking, it can be nasty and it can be fear. Nobody can tell exactly (even if the horse has had a rough background, it's not necesarily going to be fear) why Lifetry's filly is striking without spending time with her. It may have nothing to do with the work or lack of she's getting. One of our fillys is a bag for striking until she's worked a bit and the freshness is toned down. Lifetrys filly may be a bit hot, a bit stroppy, a bit fresh, a bit scared, who knows.

Im certainly not saying go a work the absolute bejesus out of her, but they can cop a fair bit of work without any harm.

Ours are broken in within three or four days, usually by themselves - we put the gear on them and let them go and they can sort it all out for themselves. Slow and surely is right for some horses, but not all need it. Some are quick learners, some are stressers who need to pushed a bit to show 'hey it's ok' or they'd never do it themselves.

Bottom line - horses can cop more work than most people give them credit for and the horse will tell you how much is too much way before you get to 'too much'. Trust your instincts, Lifetry, the filly will tell you. Best of luck to you both!

[Mehitabel]

i don't want to get into a fight over this, but while you may not have seen a horse suffer through too early training, i certainly have. and i've never seen one suffer from being brought on slowly and carefully.
in my experience, the people who say they don't need to learn any more are the ones who need to learn the most. i'm certainly still learning after 20 years.

[Desiree]

You never stop learning, there's no denying that.

Some horses require slow and steady (and I've seen a few of ours go bad because of that - both mentally and physically), others dont.

All I'm saying is that it's no good babying them for the sake of babying them. If a horse is being upity because of a bit of freshness or keeness, a lot of people think because of their age, they cant work them or work them a bit harder. This is rubbish. We don't "rush" our horses, we go at the pace they set us. Unfortunately, a lot of people have a soft touch on their horses and start having problems because of it.

In the end it all comes down to the horse, but generally, not matter what the age, they can achieve a lot more than people seem to think. Go down to your local trotting or galloping track and take a look at the yearlings. How many sound TBs and STBs are around? I don't know about UK, but there are bloody tens of thousands of them out here...

[chev]

Like Es, I'm not looking for a fight, but this is one subject I feel quite strongly about.

I see from your profile that to have had 20 years experience of horses it must date from around your first birthday. I guess if you've been around horses all your life you're bound to feel there's not much left to learn. But things that were considered gospel in the horse world even ten years ago now are considered outdated and misleading. Books and articles published now can differ wildly in their content from those around ten years ago.

I've been around horses over twenty years, and all I can say is it seems like a really short time. In that time I've seen trends in breaking and schooling change beyond recognition, frequently for the better. I feel I learn most from the horses I handle, but there are plenty of things they cannot tell me; for that, I look elsewhere.

I agree that too little exercise is damaging to a youngster, but they will place enough healthy stress on their joints to encourage good growth if just turned out most of the time. If they truly needed to be ridden to ensure soundness, how is it that feral horses and breeding stock manage to grow unaided?

I also agree that the tracks are full of sound yearlings - obviously, as they wouldn't be racing otherwise - but as I said, it is in the future that damage shows, and while I don't know what it's like where you are, I can guarantee that the UK has plenty of TBs left with a lifetimes unsoundness as a direct result of starting this early.

I said Lifetry's filly strikes because she did not have a good, well-disciplined start. If, when you talk about "babying" horses you mean not treating them firmly and with discipline, then I would agree with you, but if you mean not working them physically then I still can't. You've said a few of yours have gone "bad" because of this. I still feel you've been lucky with the ones who haven't.

[Desiree]

I was on a horse before I could walk, and growing up with something you learn to use what works, not just grab the next 'abfab theory' that comes out. Of course I read books, and magazines and attend courses and demonstrations, but you use what you find works, not adhere to a whole 'theory'.

This forum is for NEW riders and if you tell a new horse owner not to work their horses because it will do them irreprable damge' then nine times of ten, they will not work their horses until they're much, much older for fear of doing damage to their horse.

All I'm doing is trying to dispel the myth that young horses shouldnt be worked because it's a load of bunk.

Fifteen to twenty minutes in the round yard is not going to hurt any horse that is being otherwise well cared for and fed. It will give it the necessary exercise, take the edge off any freshness or hotness and provide an exceptional chance for lifetrys friend to bond with her horse, as well as give it a good grounding in how to work with a handler.

My point is that horses of all ages can cop more work than most non-racing/eventing people will EVER give them. This being the case, most peoples idea of 'a little work' is much less than is beneficial and much, much less than will damage them, mind or body.

Let us know how your friend is getting on Lifetry.

[Dizzy]

Last week my friends 12 year old TB x Connemara was destroyed because she had arthritis. She was bought as 6 yr old, who had been hunted, show jumped and also done cross country. She hadn't been ridden for the past 3 years because of her arthritis and we all knew this summer was her last.

This isn't the first horse I've seen who has lost life, when it should really be in its its prime, by to much work to soon, and sadly I know it won't be the last.

Starting horses too young is usually for financial reasons, to keep youngsters until they are 3 yr old is adding about another 18 months upkeep with no return, so its not viable finacially.

Disiree, you say you have 20 years experience, yet you are only 20 or 21 - my friends horse was probably started as a 2 yr old, 10 years ago, you would have been 10 or 11, I'll stand corrected, but I don't think you're old enough to back up your statements - and I don't mean this in a nasty way.

But you did say the following:

This forum is for NEW riders and if you tell a new horse owner not to work their horses because it will do them irreprable damge' then nine times of ten, they will not work their horses until they're much, much older for fear of doing damage to their horse.

I think its only fair that NEW riders get a balanced opinion. I don't believe that any good horse vet worth his salt, would stand hand on heart and say that starting a horse at 14 months will not be detrimental to it later on in life. They after all are the ones who end up treating them a few years later.

My friends horse, ran out with my mare and her pals, we all miss her - horses are lovely creatures, they will do thier best to please us regardless of their own safety. Its up to us as owners and trainers to work them in a way that will help them to lead long and healthy lives.

Lesley

[Desiree]

That's all I'm doing is trying to give balanced opinion. All too often riders are told not to work their horses or even START their horses early because it will damage them and this is taken for gospel.

What I'm saying in my lifetime spent around numerous horses and now as a successful breaker and trainer, I have never seen a horse damaged by early, well managed breaking. Just this year alone, we have five two year olds thriving and two yearlings about to be started and I have no fear in doing this because I've seen it done a thousand times before with no dire effects.

Yes, it can be suitable to leave them til they're three or four to do anything with them, we have three at the moment who are two and three and are only just being broken and I can tell you they are far harder to handle than yearlings. If you have unexperienced riders doing this, suddenly they can have a very bolshy or unmannered (note, not scared. Scared horses are far easier to cope with) horse on their hands and they find they're not enjoying the experience as much as they could be.

There are always going to be instances of mentally imature horses that should be left a little longer, but in the vast majority of cases, starting them as a yearling and doing some light work with them is not harmful. This is the bit that often doesn't get said and look at the reaction when it is...

Balance, it's up to the individual and I'm putting forward the usually hushed down side of things.

Cheers and thanks for some constructive comment Dizzy