Help Needed With Strong Horse - Please!!

[Daisy Lady]

Hi Everyone, I Am New To The Forum. I Could Really Do With Some Advice. I Have Only Been Riding For A Couple Of Years So Would Consider Myself Still A Novice, And I Have A Beautiful Welsh Cob X Called Daisy Who I Purchased From A Local Riding School - She Is Supposed To Be 16 - But We Think She Is Younger - Thats Another Story!!. When I Got Her I Was Aware She Could Be Strong And She Was Being Ridden In A Eggbutt Dr. Bristol, Grackle Noseband And Draw Reins!! I Wanted To Work With Her So Removed The Grackle And The Draw Reins And We Were Doing Quite Well But Then I Had To Stop Riding For A While Due To A Foot Injury And We Are Now Trying To Get Back Into The Swing Of Things. We Only Hack Out - Usually A Couple Of Times A Week And She Lives Out Most Of The Year In A Large 5 Acre Paddock With Her Friend Polo. The Problem I Have Is That She Is Very, Very Strong. I Am Still Riding In The Dr. Bristol But Still Have Absolutely No Brakes!! I Am Fine If I Keep Her In Walk But If Something Scares Her Or She Simply Wants To Get Home, She Will Go Into Trot And Eventually Canter - Even On The Road And I Really Struggle To Stop Her. When I Shorten The Reins She Just Tucks In Her Head And Carries On And Half Halts Have No Effect Whatsoever - If Anything She Gets Faster. She Only Seems To Start To Slow Down When I Totally Slacken The Reins And Even Then Not Always. If I Ask For Trot She Will Just Get Faster And Faster And Then Try To Go Into Canter And When I Actually Ask For Canter She Simply Sticks Her Head Between Her Front Legs And Tanks Off At Top Speed! It Doesn't Really Worry Me But I Would Like To Be Able To Have Some Control - Just In Case. Can Anyone Recommend Anything I Can Try? I Am Not Really Happy About Riding In The Dr. Bristol So Would Be More Than Happy To Change Her Bit. A Friend Has Recommended A Waterford Bit? Any Advice Greatly Appreciated!!

[shandy84]

Have you had any lessons, or done any groundwork with her recently? If not I would really suggest you start there and work on hacking after you've got control on the ground.

Have you had her teeth and back checked for any physical problems? Is she the same if you ride out alone and in company?

[doris]

If you have'nt had all the usuall checks done, then you really should start there. These include teeth, back and all the tack. When was her saddle fitted for instance?

Sometimes, a strong horse will be running away from pain or pressure and she was certainly ridden in a strong combination including draw reins - it's no wonder she's strong.

I think you need some professional help with this one. Perhaps a trainer/riding instructor who will not just put a more severe load of tack on this horse. If you're not very experienced you could get into real difficulties.

If it were me, I would perhaps go back to basics and do some groundwork and some long reining, but that does take some experience.

[Daisy Lady]

Hi, thanks for your reply. i have had her back, teeth and saddle checked and all are ok. she is the same if she is ridden out on her own or in company although i can usually tuck her in behind another horse - as long as they don't mind her right up their backside!! she is even worse when ridden in a small area such as a menage or field!

[shandy84]

I think Doris is right if all other avenues have been checked it may be time for a gentle instructor, not one that's just going to put stronger and stronger bits in.

Maybe you should consider getting an RA out they work on gentle principles and have been a brilliant help with my mare.

[Daisy Lady]

Hi, thanks for your reply. I have had lessons on her and she was still the same. I don't want to just put loads of gadgets on her like they had at the school. If it makes any difference, I think she has been hit by a previous owner as she is very frightened of anything that looks like a stick! which I am sure is why she has to do everything at top speed - she is even really fast in walk!!

The really good thing about her is she is very un-spooky and will hack out anywhere without question which is why the speed thing doesn't really worry me too much as I know I just have to try and go along with her until she stops. I just feel it would make our time out together much more pleasurable if we could get to the root of the problem. I also have concerns about riding her in the dr bristol and causing her pain.

[doris]

I do think you need to get to the root of the problem with some professional help whether it be a really good trainer, an RA or a TTEAM Practitioner. There is bound to be a TTEAM Practitioner near to you but as I don't know whereabouts you are, I cannot suggest one, but you can pm me if you like.

Bear in mind this is not going to be a quick problem to sort out and will take some time, and perhaps a bit of money, but will be money well spent if it means you can enjoy your horse and give her the home she deserves.

[Joyscarer]

Firstly welcome to New Rider. You'll get some great support on here :)



Wow your situation sounds so much like mine last year. :(

I bought Joy who I met on working livery at my riding school. She is a Welsh Section D.

She used to rush something chronic although mostly in the school. I stuck to just walking and getting a quality walk from her. Then I started to add in some trot.

Canter was just plain scarey so I gave up on that in the school and would only canter on a hack in company and in the end my nerve went completely and I couldn't do that.

I took photos and wrote an advert with a view to selling her and then realised how daft I was being.

I had her saddle checked and adjusted (turned out it still didn't fit but it was better). I got a professional in to school her - I just plain wouldn't ride her in the school - and I saw improvements there from the schooling she was getting.

I went back to a riding school and had lessons on a schoolmaster to get my nerve back and then started having lessons on Joy again.

I still wasn't convinced about my saddle (thanks to pinkslady that posts on here) and had a physio come out to do a routine check (didn't fill her in about my concerns on the saddle as wanted an unbiassed opinion) and she immediately pointed out a stiffness and discomfort through Joy's back and when she saw the saddle said this explained why. So I got another saddle fitter and bought a new saddle.

That meant Joy wasn't feeling the need to rush away from discomfort and we were better balanced so her need to rush for balance reasons was lessend but she still had a young exuberence about her and would put her head down, lean and then tank off faster than I wanted to.

I could handle that in walk and trot but I wanted to prgress from that. This wasn't something that schooling in a school could fix because it wasn't happening in the school.

I put this down to the fact that she wasn't used to hacking, she was a RS pony and certainly not used to hacking out alone as I had introduced her to.

I also have no problems with ground work which is usually the first thing I would advise people to return to when there are obedience issues :rolleyes:

So having covered all that I swapped her bit from a hanging check french link to a waterford. This stopped the leaning and the tanking.

I used that bit until I was happy I had broken the habit and then returned to the french link again. I never saw the waterford as being a long term solution.

In the meantime this exuberence and nervyness that I always accepted as who Joy was had the edge well and truly taken off it within a few days of starting her on magnesium oxide. I put her on that with a great deal of sceptisum but people I respect on NR had testified that it worked for them and given that Joy is grasskept 24/7 there was a chance that she was magnesium deficient.

I thought that this calmness might just be coincidence but I ran out of mag ox on Sunday and she has gine back to being edgey again so there is a definate correlation there. :)

Lastly, welsh need very little in the way of additional feed except for good quality hay. I make sure that I am not over feeding her and stick to a level round scoop of Alpha A Lite over winter (know to send some into naughtyness so whatever suits) a shovel scoop of pasture nuts (now called something else which escapes me!) and her suppliments all dampend down with water. I am hacking out 4 times a weeks for an average of 1 1/2 hours and that is enough for her.

So here I am a year on from buying Joy and now I feel we have cracked it :D

I know that my situation isn't going to be exactly the same as yours but hopefully you might get a few ideas from it that will help.

Good luck :D

[Joyscarer]

Blimey, loads of posts since I started writing my essay :rolleyes:

Sounds completely different to my situation then! :D

[Daisy Lady]

Hi Doris, I am based nr. Long Melford in Suffolk if you know of anyone who could help?

[Daisy Lady]

Hi Joyscarer, Thanks for all the info. it is much appreciated and your problem does have comparisons with mine. I have had a highly recommended back specialist out from newmarket who has said she has absolutely no problems and also a seperate physio who performed a couple of treatments on her. Unfortunately nothing has worked for me, but maybe I should give the waterford a try. Quite a few people have recommended it to me. I shan't give up her no matter what - she is far too precious and I couldn't bear the thought of her ending up being ridden by someone who decides to try to calm her down by inflicting pain. I am really interested in seeing a professional with gentle techniques as well. Thanks again.

[aeron]

I would really recommend some natural horsemanship for this... it would be perfect for you and I think would really help... imagine how great it would be to ride her and simply sit back and exhale and have her slow down! You can get her so in tune with you that you don't even need to use the bit. My horse Lily is a good example of what can be achieved..... she's an off-the-track racehorse (TB) I rescued a while back, and now I can ride her bridleless all over creation. Mostly I ride in my riding halter (http://www.aeronridinghalter.com), but I can also ride her with just a rope around her neck. I foxhunt her in the riding halter, and never have a moment's worry! It only took me a few weeks to train her to go like this, and the best part is, I don't ever have to worry about a horse running away with me ever again!
I think you'll really like it.... a good place to start is to watch the John Lyons video series, starting with Round Pen Reasoning. Try to get the original series if you can... they were cheaply done but are the best for instruction. They might be found on ebay... good luck, and happy riding!!

[aeron]

PS Check out my page on bits and bitting (http://www.naturalhorsemanship.biz)... click on Why Bitless is Better on the left.
Good Luck! : )

[doris]

Daisy Lady - give me a few days and I'll see if there's anyone available to give you a hand.

[doris]

Daisy Lady

Please go to the link below and email Liz direct. Tell her you are the person that Jenny told her about!! She will know who you are. I've also sent you a private message. I copied your post into the email I sent her, so she will be aware of the problems you are having. Let me know how you get on.
http://www.freewebs.com/thinkhorse/

[shandy84]

DL I have met Liz and she is wonderful, good luck

[doris]

I know Liz quite well, and although we do different 'methods', as she's Monty and I'm TTEAM, we both have the desire to help owners and horses and try to achieve the same end results, but by different methods.

[puzzles]

Ditto - and welcome to the forum by the way! :-D

xx

[Daisy Lady]

Just to update all you lovely people who gave me so much good advice on my problem with my very strong girl!

Well I thought about all the options and decided I would rather not go down the stronger bit road unless I absolutely had to. Therefore, I purchased a bitless bridle (dr cook copy) didn't want to spend a fortune and then it didn't work!! Anyway, at last I have brakes!!! :)

I have only ridden her in it twice whilst out hacking and she is soooooo much better!! Highly recommended!! It also seems to have cured her headshaking!! It just gets better!! She slows down as soon as I ask her and although we don't have really good brakes as yet, I was just pleased to have any!!

Only thing I have found is that she keeps trying to put her head down to eat - I am convinced she thinks I am riding her in her headcollar!!

I will keep you posted on our progress!!

[doris]

I'm glad you got things sorted and I hope they continue to improve for you and your horse.

It just goes to show that sometimes 'less is more' and it's nearly always not necessary to go stronger and stronger.

Another point and important lesson is 'listen to your horse'. Very often, our horses are trying to tell us something, but we are just not listening. They have to use whatever they can to try to tell us things, like they are uncomfortable about something, and very often, they get labelled as unruly etc. Your horse is lucky because you have taken the time to ask for help and advice, taken it all in, sifted it and sorted out the problem in a very sympathetic way.

But it's great news for you both, and keep us posted.

[shandy84]

Brilliant news :D well done you for working out what to do for the best, fingers crossed for the future for you both :)

[puzzles]

Yay - well done hun!! :-D

xx

[Free Spirit995]

Hi Daisy Lady,

Where did you buy your bitless bridle from?

I have a very strong horse and she was very similar to what your horse sounds like. She has got better with time and work and is so much better than before and doesn't tank off unless i tell her to. But when i have given her the aids to go faster and then when i want to bring her back into a steady canter or trot, she sometimes (not all the time) doesn't listen and gets faster and faster. Half halts etc nothing steadys her. So i normally end up having to turn her into a circle to slow her down and then she's fine, or if i'm on a track i have to turn her into a hedge. I have had back, teeth, tack checked etc...no probs.

Sometimes she just get's excited and wants to go for it and i run out of space and have to slow her down and i would rather her steady and slow down when i want her to all the time. For example, when i 'm schooling her she can get worse then out hacking as she'll race around the school and i'll constantly have to circle her to calm her down. And when she's jumping she sometimes gets really excited and doesn't steady before a jump and just rushes. But again it depends or her mood, sometimes she'll be as good as gold. So it could be hormonal or just plain excitement, i don't know?

I ride her in a 3 ring dutch gag and her previous owners have always ridden her in this bit but i would love to try a bitless bridle as i don't think a bit makes any difference if she wants to go, she'll go. I'd rather do the less is more approach. Also i have got her listening to my voice, so when i want her to slow down i normaly say steady or wow, sit back, have a light contact with the rein and she will normally steady. Apart from when she's in the not listening mood.

Anyone got any advice??

[Daisy Lady]

Hi Daisy Lady,

Where did you buy your bitless bridle from?

I have a very strong horse and she was very similar to what your horse sounds like. She has got better with time and work and is so much better than before and doesn't tank off unless i tell her to. But when i have given her the aids to go faster and then when i want to bring her back into a steady canter or trot, she sometimes (not all the time) doesn't listen and gets faster and faster. Half halts etc nothing steadys her. So i normally end up having to turn her into a circle to slow her down and then she's fine, or if i'm on a track i have to turn her into a hedge. I have had back, teeth, tack checked etc...no probs.

Sometimes she just get's excited and wants to go for it and i run out of space and have to slow her down and i would rather her steady and slow down when i want her to all the time. For example, when i 'm schooling her she can get worse then out hacking as she'll race around the school and i'll constantly have to circle her to calm her down. And when she's jumping she sometimes gets really excited and doesn't steady before a jump and just rushes. But again it depends or her mood, sometimes she'll be as good as gold. So it could be hormonal or just plain excitement, i don't know?

I ride her in a 3 ring dutch gag and her previous owners have always ridden her in this bit but i would love to try a bitless bridle as i don't think a bit makes any difference if she wants to go, she'll go. I'd rather do the less is more approach. Also i have got her listening to my voice, so when i want her to slow down i normaly say steady or wow, sit back, have a light contact with the rein and she will normally steady. Apart from when she's in the not listening mood.

Anyone got any advice??

Hi, She sounds very much like my girl. She was very strong and didn't seem to even acknowledge I had asked her to slow down, regardless of the type of bit I was using, it was just as if she couldn't feel it!!

I bought my bridle from e-bay, however it was from a business seller who had lots listed so I am sure if you went onto e-bay you would be able to find one too.

I must admit, it is sooooo nice to have seen a result by going down the more gentle route. I try to keep my horses as natural as possible and was really not keen to go down the stronger bit and gadget route!!

If you get one, keep us posted as to how you get on. I really hope it works as well for you as it has for me!!

[Baffled2]

Hi, a good trick if you are trying to slow down without success is to turn your horse in on itself on a very small circle until it does slow down (it cannot go at any great speed when doing this!). If it then speeds up again do the same again, it will soon get the message!

[Free Spirit995]

brilliant i've just searched for one and done some reading up on it....i'll give it a go and let you know what happens. thank you daisy lady!! i'd definitely prefer a more gentle natural approach!

[wild child]

I'm glad you got things sorted and I hope they continue to improve for you and your horse.

It just goes to show that sometimes 'less is more' and it's nearly always not necessary to go stronger and stronger.

Another point and important lesson is 'listen to your horse'. Very often, our horses are trying to tell us something, but we are just not listening. They have to use whatever they can to try to tell us things, like they are uncomfortable about something, and very often, they get labelled as unruly etc. Your horse is lucky because you have taken the time to ask for help and advice, taken it all in, sifted it and sorted out the problem in a very sympathetic way.

But it's great news for you both, and keep us posted.

well if shes not in pain ,,,then maby spending time with her on the ground and lungeing her before work .if your afraid of her mouth still after (get a bitless or soft hackemore,,,,hackmores apply pressure to the top of the nose .but usulay for a horse whos fresh or strong some ground work and working on her respecting you on the ground ,,is she pushy with you on the ground? but lungeing befor works too:)

[wild child]

Hi Everyone, I Am New To The Forum. I Could Really Do With Some Advice. I Have Only Been Riding For A Couple Of Years So Would Consider Myself Still A Novice, And I Have A Beautiful Welsh Cob X Called Daisy Who I Purchased From A Local Riding School - She Is Supposed To Be 16 - But We Think She Is Younger - Thats Another Story!!. When I Got Her I Was Aware She Could Be Strong And She Was Being Ridden In A Eggbutt Dr. Bristol, Grackle Noseband And Draw Reins!! I Wanted To Work With Her So Removed The Grackle And The Draw Reins And We Were Doing Quite Well But Then I Had To Stop Riding For A While Due To A Foot Injury And We Are Now Trying To Get Back Into The Swing Of Things. We Only Hack Out - Usually A Couple Of Times A Week And She Lives Out Most Of The Year In A Large 5 Acre Paddock With Her Friend Polo. The Problem I Have Is That She Is Very, Very Strong. I Am Still Riding In The Dr. Bristol But Still Have Absolutely No Brakes!! I Am Fine If I Keep Her In Walk But If Something Scares Her Or She Simply Wants To Get Home, She Will Go Into Trot And Eventually Canter - Even On The Road And I Really Struggle To Stop Her. When I Shorten The Reins She Just Tucks In Her Head And Carries On And Half Halts Have No Effect Whatsoever - If Anything She Gets Faster. She Only Seems To Start To Slow Down When I Totally Slacken The Reins And Even Then Not Always. If I Ask For Trot She Will Just Get Faster And Faster And Then Try To Go Into Canter And When I Actually Ask For Canter She Simply Sticks Her Head Between Her Front Legs And Tanks Off At Top Speed! It Doesn't Really Worry Me But I Would Like To Be Able To Have Some Control - Just In Case. Can Anyone Recommend Anything I Can Try? I Am Not Really Happy About Riding In The Dr. Bristol So Would Be More Than Happy To Change Her Bit. A Friend Has Recommended A Waterford Bit? Any Advice Greatly Appreciated!!


well if shes not in pain ,,,then maby spending time with her on the ground and lungeing her before work .if your afraid of her mouth still after (get a bitless or soft hackemore,,,,hackmores apply pressure to the top of the nose .but usulay for a horse whos fresh or strong some ground work and working on her respecting you on the ground ,,is she pushy with you on the ground? but lungeing befor works too

[Free Spirit995]

hi daisy lady,

i have tried out my new bitless bridle and it works really nicely, we had a nice canter through a field today and she didn't want to put her head down and go as fast as she can against the bit, she went nice and steady and slowed down when i needed her to.

my only problem with it is my turning, it seems i have to turn really heavy to go in the direction i want to go in whereas before when i used a bit i would only have to turn her ever so slightly.. do you have this problem? or is there something i can do to overcome it?? and now she doesn't have a bit in her mouth she thinks its an excuse to try and put her head down to eat grass when we stop, i just have to pull her up. also, how tight is the noseband supposed to be? but all in all it's really nice not having to wear a dutch gag and be totally bitless!!

[Daisy Lady]

hi daisy lady,

i have tried out my new bitless bridle and it works really nicely, we had a nice canter through a field today and she didn't want to put her head down and go as fast as she can against the bit, she went nice and steady and slowed down when i needed her to.

my only problem with it is my turning, it seems i have to turn really heavy to go in the direction i want to go in whereas before when i used a bit i would only have to turn her ever so slightly.. do you have this problem? or is there something i can do to overcome it?? and now she doesn't have a bit in her mouth she thinks its an excuse to try and put her head down to eat grass when we stop, i just have to pull her up. also, how tight is the noseband supposed to be? but all in all it's really nice not having to wear a dutch gag and be totally bitless!!

Hi free spirit,

I am really pleased for you!!

Isn't it great to have control and without going down the harsher route!!

I have exactly the same problem with the putting the head down to eat. Someone mentioned it takes a while for them to realise they are not being ridden in a headcollar!! My mare does seem to have done it slightly less each time she has been out though!

I found the steering to be better than usual although I did find I had to put my leg on more than I did when riding her in a bit, so that mught be worth a try for you. I think the main key with these bridles is to ride with very loose reins all the time so that when give the command to turn they can instantly feel the pressure on the side of the face.

I think the noseband is supposed to be fairly tight and should sit lower on the face. I found that the one supplied with my bridle was way too big despite the bridle fitting fine elsewhere, so I just changed over the removeable part underneath to a padded one I had on another of her bridles. It seemed to make the whole bridle fit alot better!

Hope the above is some help! But keep us posted with your progress!

By the way, how have your horsey friends reacted to you swopping over to bit free?? My friends all think I am mad to even attempt it!! One described it as driving a car with no brakes!!