Trying to Understand Jumping

[wanabe]

Yesterday I was watching 2 advanced riders in their lesson. They weren't doing anything difficult -- even I could do it, except for the flying changes -- with jumps no higher than 2 feet. I was struck by how differently they looked going over the jumps, tho. One bent her body way forward over the horses neck. The other hardly moved her body forward at all -- although she was going into 2-point over the jump. The thing is, they both looked good.

How come two such different styles? Is one correct and the other not?

[vimto92]

Ideally you shouldn't be "on" the horses neck at all, you should bend from your hips and push your bum to the back of the saddle.:)

[evilgiraffe]

I think a lot of people lean way further forward than is strictly necessary, especially over small jumps. All you need to do is get off the horse's back and stay balanced - no need to throw yourself up their neck :)

Also if you're throwing yourself forward you'll struggle to get forward and then back fast enough when you're jumping a small fence, you'll have landed before you've got forward!

I tend to go for the defensive position of minimum possible folding, that way I find I'm much more secure, so if the horse does a massive jump, stumbles on landing, or decides not to take off at all it's much easier to stay on and in control.

[wanabe]

Is it possible that the one who was up on the neck was doing a crest release? I've got another thread going about how some riders continue using the crest release even after they've gotten far enough along to do an automatic release.

[RachelEvent]

In the UK we don't tend to make a massive differentiation between crest release and automatic release. In general, people are often taught to aim for the automatic release straight away - this has it's positives and negatives.

On the good side, the automatic release maintains a soft contact with the horses mouth the whole time - so it's possilve to pick the horse up back together after the jump very quickly and smoothly. It's also easier on strong horses to prevent them picking up too much speed on landing! The automatic release also tends to prevent riders from throwing themselves up the horses neck in a precarious position.

The trouble with doing an automatic release straight away is that inevitably, sometimes you are going to accidently be pulling too hard on the horses mouth or be taken by surprise with how much stretch the horse needs.

In America the crest release is taught first (from what I gather :p) and this involves placing the hands on the crest of the horses neck, often to the extent that slack rein is given. This is good in some respects because it means that the horse won't be pulled in the mouth and has freedom to use themselves.

However, most photos i see of crest releases involve riders being far too far in front of the movement in a precarious position, with the horse having plenty of room to move the neck, but unable to use it's front end properly, because the rider is weighting down it's neck! Also, there are some horses (eg. mine) who given too much slack over a jump, would promptly **** off on landing ;)

[wanabe]

Interesting. I didn't know that the crest release was an American thing. :)

Don't you have to go well up on the horses neck, even with an automatic release, if the jump is a big enough one?

[~*sugarlump*~]

whats a crest release? :confused: or automatic release? :o

theres alot of variety in peoples jumping, in higher competitions you usually see people throwing themselves onto the neck, over smaller jumps some people seem not to even bend much at all.
as long as you're off the back and giving the reins enough it doesn't matter hugely over small jumps.
i think some people jumping very high jumps try and throw themselves over the jump as well :p

[helenhorse]

Ideally you shouldn't be "on" the horses neck at all, you should bend from your hips and push your bum to the back of the saddle.:)
i agree with vimto, you want to be positioning yourself in the centre in 2 point position, bending at the hips, pushing your bum back and allowing him to stretch his neck.

[LMS]

Yes we are taught the crest release first, simply to stay out of the horse's way and if the horse has a big bounce. There are 2 crest releases, one is halfway up the horse's neck and the other is a third up the neck (between halfway & the withers).

That way you learn to follow the horse & find your balance before doing an automatic release. Also some horses probably prefer it. Though you shouldn't be leaning into the horse, you are simply grabbing hold of the mane, all the weight is distributed down in your lower leg & heels.

Always think of this: should the horse suddenly dissapear from under me; how will I land? That applies to everything.

[eml]

Crest release was very fashionable in the UK in the 50/60's (sorry yes I am that old!) In those days courses were big but much less technical , hardest thing you had to cope with were 6' wide stile jumps which tested your steering on approach. We jumped in a very different way to suit the courses, holding the horse until three strides out and then 'firing' and collecting back after landing. You would never succeed in getting around a modern BSJA/FEI course that way these days but I think it stemmed from adopting the hunting seat to the 'italian' seat that was just coming into fashion.

I used to jump a couple of top ponies and it was not considered wrong to canter sideways between jumps as long as you got the last three strides right. All very different from the modern thinking on maintenance of rythm and balance throughout the course.

[Pink's lady]

I used to jump a couple of top ponies and it was not considered wrong to canter sideways between jumps as long as you got the last three strides right.

I remember doing that on ponies and I'm not old! They were schooled and broken by the 'older' generation of rider - they'd bounce up sideways to the jump, canter three stride on the spot, counting under their breath, then launch themselves at the jump. Great fun:D

whats a crest release? or automatic release?

This is a crest release, quite extreme. This is Ali learning to jump (first time jumping!) and Pink, whilst very very honest, has an unpredicatble jump, so a crest release is best.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Pink/alijumpingpink009.jpg

And this is the only picture I've got showing a vague automatic release: I was expecting her to jump it normally, not like it was 3ft!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Other%20horses/carysjumping2.bmp

[wanabe]

EML -- that was some interesting "historical" stuff. You must have quite a background!

Those photos, to someone trying to spot the difference, might look quite similar. The important difference, I think (bear in mind I'm just learning) is that with the crest release, the reins are slack between the rider's hands and the horse's mouth. With the automatic release, the reins are straight and firm, but not pulling.

[Pink's lady]

The important difference, I think (bear in mind I'm just learning) is that with the crest release, the reins are slack between the rider's hands and the horse's mouth. With the automatic release, the reins are straight and firm, but not pulling.

Pretty much. The first shows the reins basically 'thrown away' (doesn't look it but they were baggy in that picture). Unusally for a crest release the rider HASN'T thrown herself up the horses neck particularly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Pink/alijumpingpink009.jpg

THIS is throwing yourself up the neck, with a crest release:o (sorry it's tiny)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Tia/tia2.jpg

The other picture shows an automatic release, but in this case not quite enough give - I was all set for a small bend from the hips and a slight give with the hands. The horse has different ideas!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Other%20horses/carysjumping2.bmp

Then just to confuse things - This is an automatic release but with the rider throwing themselves up the neck. Note how she's too far forwards but has kept a good reinlength.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Pinkslady/Pink/Alijumpingbigconejump.jpg

[LMS]

Here's a link to Wikipedia, go 2/3 of the way down the page, it show's all three releases & what they're used for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_position

[LMS]

Sorry PL but what you're showing as an automatic release looks more like a short crest release to me. With an automatic release, the hands are on the side of the crest, with a bit/hand/elbow straight line. That way, the rider can still direct the horse.

[acw295]

[QUOTE=Pink's lady;1582223]I remember doing that on ponies and I'm not old! They were schooled and broken by the 'older' generation of rider - they'd bounce up sideways to the jump, canter three stride on the spot, counting under their breath, then launch themselves at the jump. Great fun:D

I'm not old either (well nearly 30, old enough :o) but spent my early days jumping doing just that. It is why I have so little confidence jumping now - if the horse isn't bouncing sideways in the approach i have no confidence that they will actually get over it :o:rolleyes:

[Lubii]

Automatic release
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb162/Lubiilou/sj10-1.jpg
Semi automatic release.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb162/Lubiilou/logjumpagian.jpg

[angelfben]

When my boy was finding his feet over jumps I used the crest release as it was always unpredictable what he'd do and how much rein he'd need!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/angelfben/Horses/Dun/Summer%202007/Image025-1.jpg

I was able to use an automatic release with him once he was more confident over fences though, it allows for better control on landing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/angelfben/Horses/Dun/Summer%202007/HPIM0055.jpg

[evilgiraffe]

Thanks for the link, LMS, I've never heard of crest or automatic releases before!

So I guess that in the first two pictures of me here I'm doing an automatic release, and in the last one it's a crest release?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/153813828_bc95ca23cc.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/435486793_1d38385c96.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/435486801_1b84274169.jpg

Interesting to note actually that I keep my leg position much more stable on Trigger the faster we go - the more "showjumpy" the jump, the harder it is for me to keep my legs in the right place as his jump is so powerful. Bowling along it's much easier, it seems, as in the first picture of him my legs have barely moved and we were just rolling along easily. The photo of Sandy is much more flattering, but then he had an easy peasy jump and easy paces to go with (not to mention I was about 3 stone lighter!).

[aussieannie]

Each horse you ride will give you a different feel and therfore security. Some like the big spot some get deep some over jump and some just pop over a fence. Learn to balance in the two piont and three piont postiton regards less. Use a neck strap at first when jumping. i have ridden at 3 star level and started the course holding my neck strap. Learn the strengthen your muscles on a ball and learn core stability first It is so important for riders.