deeply depressed

[chapsi]

I feel truely let down with chattered dreams. Ever since I remember being a person, all I wished mostly was to ride and to have a horse. Throughout my childhood this was an obcessive thought to me. Much later in life, when I lived in the Cotswold (I was over 30 by then), I started to ride. Always insecure, not much confident though, I went along fine until a horse bolted with me!
Ever since then I became weary and frightened of riding, but for no moment I stopped adoring horses. The more time went by, the more insecure I got (riding outdoors and cantering are my biggest problems). For several years I didn't ride.
Anyway, I re-start riding again and because I like horses so much, I decided to get my own, hoping that a nice steady, easy-going horse would help me to overcome my limitations.
All I wanted was to achieve a good close relation with my horse, a strong bond, to have a partner and to be able to let him be himself without fear or punishment.
So, Pegasus came along. He was sold to me as a "bomb proof" horse, with a good personality, calm, gentle and affectionate. He was very thin (in fact starving) when I saw him, looking and pleading with his great big black eyes, licking our hands and following us around like a puppy. Needless to say, that was love at first sight. On top of it, he is a beautiful dapple grey horse, with a long black mane, a true hansome guy. All my life time dreams came true, at 41!
But reality has been a different story. With a full belly he revealed himself as a different horse. He is indifferent, barely tolerates being stroked or petted, is not very cooperative to allow me handling and grooming him. Workwise, he is lazy, a real hassle to lunge on the line... whenever I get him to lunge 2 or 3 days in a go, next he'll find a new trick so that I cannot do it.
As a result, every step forward that I make (either handling or working), I make two steps backward.
He knows me well, but he doesn't like me at all (I can sense it). I am just his food provider. In fact, he responds well to experienced men riders, and because he is so difficult to me, I can never be left alone with him and these riders are always having to interfere.
Relation wise, he isn't sweet, or affectionate, perhaps just to these other men riders, who actually treat him harshly.
Why and in what way have I failed? I gave all I could, my commitment, my time, my affection... I tried all I could think of to develop a special bond with this horse, but to no avail... 2 months are gone by and no improvement.
On top of it all he has shown a nasty side of his nature; lots of unprovoked bites and attacks in return, both to myself and others, perpetrated whenever he feels under too much pressure.
I see just one solution, to sell him (but who will buy a bitting horse?) or to give him to somebody with a rough hand.
I am so depressed, so let down, desappointed...
Anybody has a last minute solution? how to conquor this horse? how to make him stop biting? how to make him affectionate? If only I knew that there was hope... I would give him more chances......... men men :( :(

[Kerry's Partner]

I think all that you wanted was right. I don't think that the obedient reaction to the men who are very bossy with him is necessarily due to affection for them. He does sound unhappy I agree and so you might need some experienced support in these early days - because 2 months is not long at all given that he wasn't treated well before. There could be so very many different reasons why all is not well with him so don't be too quick to think that the problem is that he dislikes you. If you can try and get some advice from someone other than the people who you think are bossy!!

If it's any help for you to know - I had a terrible time when I first bought my horse too - but we now have a lovely relationship and she is an extremely good girl. I sought and received advice on more than one occasion and from different people according to our needs - in fact I still do. I took things very slowly and bit by tiny bit this has all made such a difference.

Good luck.

[Fraggle]

It sounds as if your horse was starving and mistreated before he came to you and it will take a long time for him to trust anyone.
The biting is probably a defence mechanism which allows him to keep you at a distance as he doesn't trust you yet

You really need some profressional advice and help.

I bought my first pony 3 mnths ago and my riding instructor has been a great help over the first few months when I felt I was not getting anywhere with my pony. We are only just beginning to trust each other and we have a long way to go yet.

Give your new horse time to trust you and seek professional help with him, I'm sure it will all work out well for you in the end.

:)

[Laetitia]

Oh dear,Chapsi, so sorry that that your dream hasn't lived up to expectations,unfortunately they don't always.What to do? You don't say how old your boy is.He may be younger than you were told and is feeling overfaced, or older, and unable to achieve what is asked of him.I do know that horses take several months to settle into a new environment, and he may require a period of time doing nothing and chilling out,in order to find his feet.This may just be defense mechanisms kicking in.He may have a background that needs thinking about - why does he respond to harsh handling.I don't think you should consider in any way that you have failed, only perhaps your expectations were a trifle high within a very short time span.He will test you to the limit to find his boundaries,and you need to be strong, and his alpha - leader.
If you don't like him and don't trust him then you may need to have a major re-think, and sell him on to someone who will realise his potential, and get yourself an elderly proven schoolmaster with whom you can have fun and who will look after you.All the best.L

[B W]

Chapsi: You were so kind to reply when I was thrown 2 weeks ago. I know exactly how you feel but I've had my horse over a year. When he bucked me off I felt betrayed. I gave this horse so much care and attention, more than he's ever had in his life, and he did that to me. I knew in my head he was only a horse and couldn't rationalize what he had done but still I was sad. I am starting over with him now. We have done alot of ground work and it's safe for me and good for him. I would suggest you do some natural horsemanship with your boy. I don't like the word dominate but sometimes you just have to do it to save the horse and yourself. If you like this horse, get to work. Read all you can. Don't let people tell you what to do because you will get confused. Read and make up your own mind. You sound like you have a good one, so use it. If you really don't like this horse be done with him now. But, it's a little early. You've got the new horse blues and that's normal. Good luck to you. Whatever you do, don't give up riding. You always wanted to ride and you will find your perfect partner, if not in this one, another horse.

[rocketman]

How sad that there are so many people worldwide that prey upon inexperienced horse buyers. I have heard similar tales so often. They give everyone who operates a legitimate horse business a bad name - we all end up tarred with the same brush.

Whoever sold you the horse could not have been very caring, or the horse would not have been in such poor condition. You didn't say if it was a horse dealer or a private sale. In some respects, I am more wary of the housewife with one horse to sell. Some of them will lie through their teeth to get rid of a problem horse and not have another one to sell for years. A reputable dealer (there are some) want buyers to be happy and tell their friends so they get more business. Whatever this seller was, he/she obviously didn't care about the outcome for you.

I am going to disagree with the consensus opinion. Don't throw good money after bad. If I were you, I would cut my losses and get rid of this horse. It doesn't need to be by a private sale. Ask around. There are local dealers who will take a chance and local horse auctions where caveat emptor (buyer beware) is the rule. You are not running a charity for abused and subsequently nasty, defensive horses. Sometimes a previously maltreated horse will lock on to his rescuer and give that person his heart, but this does not sound like the case here.

You are going to lose money on the transaction. Chalk it up to experience and be more careful the next time. Find an honest and experienced horse person who has nothing to gain to advise you and check out any new horse you might find - before you buy it. There are so many lovely, kind and gentle horses looking for a new home and a loving owner, why waste your time and money on a bad apple, even if it is not the horse's fault that he is the way he is. This horse is turning your dream into a nightmare.

Buying a horse is like marrying a husband. You have to find Mr. Right. So long as you're with Mr. Wrong, Mr. Right will never come along. Get divorced!

[B W]

Rocketman: That's probably the best advice I've heard with what has been described here. There are some horses that are just not likeable and this sounds like one of them. I hope Chapsi finds a nice horse to give her heart to. She is a wonderful owner and some horse is going to be very lucky.

[judyl]

I think a few months isn't long enough. We bought our mare now nearly 3 YEARS ago! She's now practically a different horse. She would attack you with her teeth - with no warning and for no reason that we could see. She even attacked me for stroking her neck in the field. Thank goodness I was wearing about 6 layers otherwise I would've lost half my stomach.

I think you need to continue with kindness and consistency and get yourself some knowledgeable help. Only lunge when you've got someone with you so they can lead him when he's being difficult.

I'm sure with some help you can overcome this poor horse's feelings. Imagine how he must feel. He's been starved and probably never known particular human kindness.

I think you should persevere for a few more months. Maybe you're also reading his demeanour wrongly. Even though our mare is now more kind, we still keep a careful eye on her just in case but without going totally the other way. Perhaps you should just spend time with him grooming and petting and feeding and not work him until he's a bit stronger. Maybe you've been doing too much with him. After all, if he was starved when you got him, that's only 4 months ago.

Whatever you decide (and it is your decision as you'll have to live with it) I wish you the best of luck.

Judy

[chapsi]

Dear everybody,

It is so reassuring and supportive to receive all your your responses to my cries.
To begin with, just a few points that need clearing out; the horse is 6 years old and he came from a young man who owned a few other horses (all hopeless cases), who buys and sells, as well as he teaches riding and breaks horses too. However, he had just sold a TB Lusitano to the riding yard where I ride, and all turned out really well, and that's how I came to trust him with this horse. On top of it, this seller seemed calm and gentle with the horses (not petting, but not treating them rough neither), which reassured me.
What hits me mostly is that I lived in England, and although due to my lack of confidence I am considered as a wimp and novice, I met throughout my life many horses devoted to their owners. However, several experienced men riders (I live in a very male orientated society; "Humane Horsemanship, what´s that? Kelly Marks, Mounty Roberts, who are they?") state that horses develop good relations just with confident handlers, that they get attached not to the person in question but to the workout routine. According to them, an affectionate and dedicated horse is a phantasy. Is this true? Would any one prove that I am not mad?
I am sick of feeling weary with this horse, uneasy, even afraid and unable to be left alone with him. He definately bullies me, he shows me that I am no alpha mare. I cannot tell him off every second, nor hit him, that´s against my humane horsemanship principles (although I have been forced to handle him at times harshier than I would have liked).
By the way, in 2 months he improved his condition a great deal. He is by far stronger and fiter and all the lungeing has made him develop powerful muscles instead of flabby tissue. He is on a good diet and has the necessary exercise, but not too much (don't forget that he is stabled, grazing here is difficult to get). By no means is he overworked, he is no longer skin and bone, but a powerful 16hh Lusitano. All due to our care.
I have been bit, threatned on occasions, bruised, trampled and trod, my knee is not right, but still I had hopes and persevered. Now I feel desilusioned and let down. I am heartbroken, my affection, my love got no return.

[chapsi]

Just one more thing that puzzles me, Pegasus seems to appreciate children. He looks gentle and warm towards them, very inquisitive but friendly.
Overall his attitude in the box is ears halfway back, a bit aloof. When I arrive, he pins back his ears flat, and stretches his neck expecting a treat (but always with a demanding posture).

[chapsi]

I also forgot one more thing,
Some of you mentioned grooming. I groom him every single day, with all my care and consideration, ever since he came. He has the best brushes in the market (I ordered most my material from foreingn riding catalogues); brushes for his mane, head, hooves, body etc (9 in total). Grooming is a ritual for both, but he doesn´t appreciate it as other horses I met. Rough handling is what he likes! So often when I groom him he bullies me and has stroked people with his teeth 2,3 times.

[KarinUS]

I am very sorry for what you are going through. I am a relatively new horse owner myself, so rather than give you advice I'd like to give you some things to think about:
He is on a good diet and has the necessary exercise, but not too much (don't forget that he is stabled, grazing here is difficult to get).
Overall his attitude in the box is ears halfway back, a bit aloof. When I arrive, he pins back his ears flat, and stretches his neck expecting a treat
My horse is a TB and so I like to read a lot about ex-racehorse TBs. A few weeks ago I came across a great article on how a lady rehabilitates horses.
She says the key is really quite simple: adequate diet and turnout. After a couple of months of turnout she says her horses act like entirely different horses altogether.
She feels a lot of horses are kept on too high of a protein diet with little or no turnout. I get the impression that this could be the case with you as well? If you could find a place that lets you pasture board him 24/7 and greatly reduce his grain, he might behave very differently. Also don't feed him treats when he's demanding. Maybe even stop feeding him by hand right now and use a bucket, so he won't go after your hands.
Buying a horse is like marrying a husband. You have to find Mr. Right. So long as you're with Mr. Wrong, Mr. Right will never come along. Get divorced!
Haha. That sounds about right.
But it also could be that that horse/husband is sitting on the couch (boxstall) all day and you keep bringing him beer (grain) and he has learned to behave badly and demanding. Maybe if he got something to do (turnout) and no more beer (grain), he would be a more balanced creature?

[kedwards]

The situation sounds very difficult and heartbreaking for you. You have my sympathy. I am no horse expert, so I am not qualified to give advice. In your situation, I would seek expert advice myself. The problem is, you can get so much conflicting advice, that it still falls back on to you to determine which has merit.

I don't think there's anything wrong with finding the horse a new owner, if that's what you decide to do. If the horse really isn't right for you, you may not be doing either one of you a favor by hanging on.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. I can only imagine the mixed feelings you must have about the whole thing.

[lisae]

Your post certainly rings true, it is very easy to get emotionally involved when living with horses! At least twice I have found myself 'overhorsed' because I fell in love with a soft muzzle and big eyes. Eventually, I came to (my own personal) realization that horses, while capable of responding to and working in tandem with humans, simply can not offer affection the way humans perceive and offer affection. I sold a gelding because he became too much for me to handle - he simply took advantage. With other more determined horsepeople he was fine and has gone on to a great situation.

I replaced him with a little Haflinger mare who is laid-back and well-mannered. She does everything she was trained to do, she puts only minimal energy into defying me, and she always quits when I insist. It's her nature, and it's a good match for me. I'm so happy I'm not getting stepped on, pushed around and generally disrespected anymore, I don't even think about whether she nuzzles me or nickers at the fence. That's probably just horse language for "feed me".

I do, however, rely on my geriatric cat, who purrs all the time and pats my face with her paw...

[chapsi]

Thanks for your advice.

I totally agree on the importance of grazing, but in this region it is not possible. Pastures in our country are poor (except in the winter or solely in the NorthWest), and most horses tend to be stabled.
His horse box is roomy, in fact. On the contrary of many of the people who board their horses there, I exercise mine every single day, so I make sure that he gets plenty of movement. On top of it, he is lazy, even when free inside the arena, he tends just to walk around, as other horses love to run around and to kick in the air. As regards feed, his hasn´t much grain (like oats), and since this feed arrived several horses became quieter. In any case, all other horses seem to get along fine with it, and I give him a special complement that is supposed to both re-condition your horse as well as calm him down: Klamath Algae from Oregon.

[floppy]

does your horse have a friend he can be turned out with to play with? doesnt matter if ther eis grazing or not.

[Tumbleweed]

Chapsi, It is very difficult for us to really know what is happening, you are putting in all the relevant information that you can think of, but maybe there is something else. It looks as if he doesn't respect you, I have seen this so many times when people first get a horse, but you really need help with this.

Also, his food will have a big inpact, you said he was in a very poor state which means that you have been feeding him up. Now he has put weight on and he may not need such feeding. What do you feed him on?

The chances are that he has been abused, this is usually the case with horses in very poor condition, and this will take time before he will trust you.

You have to be consistant and take no nonsense from him, that doesn't mean beating him, just stopping him should eventually work. When brushing him, keep you elbow up high, so that when he swings round to bite, he knocks himself on your elbow. He will soon work out that this doesn't pay and he is doing it himself because you are continuing to brush. Are you too gentle with the brushing? Again, I have seen horses react to gentle brushing but when used firmer, enjoyed it.

You will have to become aware of when he is likely to bite and then block it. Can you work out when he bites? what situation he bites in? what you are doing when he bites? Also, watch his body language, his ears will tell you a lot, and you can often prevent bites just by watching his ears and then acting. Another sign is his tail, how he carries it, and what he is doing it. Swishing tails in an agitated manner usually means trouble.

In order to get more control of him when lunging, try 2 reins, attached either side of the cavason with the outside rein threaded through the stirrup. This will give you more control, but don't let the rein fall below his hocks. You can also us the outside rein to encourage him forward by flicking it towards his bottom.

It is nice to have a nice, affectionate horse, but it is the challenges that makes life more interesting and eventually the bond is much stronger.

Margaret.

[chapsi]

Thanks Margaret.

You gave me some good tips.
Unfortunately, most of the time his ears are halfway back (both), except when he is alert. As regards his body language, generally he strikes back when something displeases him and usually there is no warning or even apparent reason. He gives me the idea that he carefully premeditates his attacks (I know this sounds silly as he is just a horse, not a human being).
As regards his feed, it is been monitored by the riding yards' owner, a man with plenty of experience. He gets his mix feed, straw and fresh veg or fruit.

[rocketman]

Chapsi -

I don't mean to sound so negative, especially when most everyone else is trying to come up with positive ideas and helpful advice. Going back to my 'husband/horse' analogy, would anyone here advise you to stay with a physically abusive husband and try to 'change' him? Would it matter if the abusive husband had been abused by his father or abandoned by his mother as a child to cause the resulting behavior? I know a lot of women make this mistake and suffer through many more attacks through some sense of misplaced loyalty, feelings that they somehow brought it upon themselves, or just not knowing where to turn for help. It's called 'battered wife syndrome'.

A friend of mine once bought a talented horse (good jumper, great dressage) despite the fact that the seller admitted he was 'a bit ferocious in his box'. This horse had not been abused. I went to her house one day and, not finding my friend inside, went down to her stables to look for her. She wasn't there either but I happened to notice this horse's water bucket was empty, so naturally, I entered the box, took the bucket down and filled it, and went back in and hung it up. She arrived a few minutes later and was horrified that I had gone into the box with the horse. She was wearing a wax jacket that was virtually shredded and explained that the horse had put in every rip, savagely biting at her every time she entered his stall. She was terrified of him and amazed I had come out unscathed. (He had given me a bunch of evil looks, which I ignored, being an alpha mare myself and the type that looks like she might bite back.)

I advised her to get rid of the horse, which she did. A year or so later, the new owner, whom I happened to also know, called me. He had bitten her so savagely on the face that, when she staggered out of the stall and put her hands on her face, she couldn't feel even feel if her face was still there. I gave her the same advise, but in the meantime the horse had developed navicular disease and was of little value, plus she didn't want to inflict the horse on someone else. Her husband, fearing for his wife's safety, wanted to put the horse down. The couple had little money for a replacement horse and needed to recoup some portion of their investment in the horse. I dreaded my next piece of advice, but I gave it anyway. It was to take the horse to the abattoire and haggle over his value as meat.

I hated saying this (and they did it), but what else could I tell them. This horse had had every chance to straighten out. These were both kind and caring women. I could not, with any conscience, tell them to keep trying. What if the horse had injured or killed someone?

Be careful! This may be an extreme example, but a vicious horse is capable of really hurting you.

[B W]

Hello everyone: I hate to admit it but I agree more with Rocketman. I'm VERY compasionate and am going through some ruff times with my own horse but stricking out, rearing with ears pinned and biting are things I would not put up with. My horse did rear but it was due to pain and I'm giving him another chance. We're going back to basics and see if we can't reschool him to be more relaxed. He is very sweet and affectionate. Chapsi, I'm so sorry you are going through this. You really don't deserve it. Get rid of this horse and get yourself one that you can love and will appreciate your kindness. Your horse has been treated badly and probably has gone from owner to owner for just the reasons you've shared with us. You don't owe him your life and I believe you said you were in your 40s before you got your own horse so, like me, you've got some time to make up. Make it up on a horse that's for you. Make your decision and stick with it. If you elect to try and reschool him, put him in the round pen and run him until he submits. If you choose to sell him, do it and don't look back. Be strong! Good luck. Please keep us posted on what happens. I personally am really concerned about your safety.

[alleycat]

While this horse has probably been abused, is quite young, and may indeed be able to be 'rehabilitated', I think that is a task for an experienced horse-person with the energy and experience to take on a project horse. Chapsi, if you consider yourself a novice and just want a nice, friendly pony to puddle around with, then I agree with Rocketman and BW - sell. Find yourself a horse that will be an appropriate partner for your needs. Struggling on with a difficult animal that you're uncertain about handling may simply end up being counter-productive for both of you.
It's a terrible shame that you were misled about the animal you were buying, and I know it can be difficult to admit defeat. You have my sympathy for the turmoil you must be going through.

[KarinUS]

Struggling on with a difficult animal that you're uncertain about handling may simply end up being counter-productive for both of you
I totally agree with that. Especially if you feel unable to change the situation he's in and how he's handled/trained/kept etc. there's no point in continuing on. It will just make it worse, not just for you but for him as well...

[constance]

being a stubborn person i, personally, would wait until the 6 month mark. this really depends though on how much the situatuion is affecting the rest of your life. the best way to weigh this up is to discuss it with an honest (very, very, honest) friend or family member.

i of course do not know you, however i am honest.

to me it sounds as though you and the horse both have some major self-esteem and confidence problems. this is a bad combination whether it be horse and rider, dog and owner, or even two freinds or partners.

from the horse's point of view, he needs someone to raise his confidence through discipline and dominance (the horse, not human type). animals need their place in the world just like us, he needs to feel like he has a place in a herd. you have to make yourself his alpha leader or he will not look to you for guidence or suggestion. if you and him are struggling to work this out he will not be able to feel a belonging or trust to you; and will of course not see the point of listening and working for you in the arena or out. like me you do not sound like a natuarally dominating person.

you yourself also need a self-esteem boost (this is coming from someone who needs the same). you need a horse who feels happy and confident in his world and is not for want of a leader. he needs to be able to guide you to your path, but to do this he needs to already have a stable path of his own.

there is a time for optimism and there is a time for realism. your situation now sounds desperate enough for realism. realistically, i think the healthiest answer for you and the horse is to part.

why put yourself and the horse through this when there is such a high chance of a setback? it sounds as though your equestrian confidence is hanging by a string. a situation like this needs a hundred ropes, otherwise the risk just seems too high.

i think you have enough to work on with yourself at present. don't put yourself (or the horse) through the misery. it may seem self centred, and you may feel alot of guilt; but there are times when you will not be able to find a happier and better functioning self without making these self-centred decisions. how can we really bring any happiness or usefullness to the world when we do not feel a relevant amount of happiness or usefulness?

it may sound like a low goal, but for now set yours as becoming a more confident horse owner. when this is achieved it will be the right time to help out a horse (like him) in need.

[Waikato Valuta]

???

[Tumbleweed]

We cannot see just what is happening so it is very difficult to give the right advice, all we can do is come up with suggestions and hope that something will work.

I do agree that she should probably sell the horse and get one more suitable, but that is not what people want to hear, they want advice on how to solve the problem. They have to come to this decision themselves with the help and advice from knowledgeable people. We cannot make that decision for them, and it could be the wrong one because we cannot see what is going on.

I have turned both horses and dogs, but I always put my safety and the safety of other people first, and I tie the horse up every time I work or feed them. The horse must be tied near the door, it is dangerous to tie one up at the back of the stable.

Plenty of fruit and veg, this can cause problems and can hype a horse up. Like everything else, a little is good but a lot is not. Diet is very relevant, whenever an animal is agressive, I always change to low protien foods, it makes a big difference.

There are remedies on the market that will help to calm the horse down so that you can work with him, these are homeopathic and will do no harm. If anyone wants information on where you can get them, then email me. No, I am not selling them.

[Heather]

HI Chapsi,

Whereabouts in Portugal are you? I have students in Oporto who have been in very much the same situation with their horse, also being novice riders, but they are gradually working through it all. Have you ever heard of clicker training? This can help to build up a relationship between you and your horse on the ground. Go to www.theclickercenter.com to see more about this method. There are many methods of ground training that can help you to forge a bond with your horse,some better than others, but most are better than just struggling on your own. My good friend Michael Peace's book 'Think Like Your Horse' wil give you a good understanding of horse behaviour and psychology.

I go to Portugal several times a year as I have a young stallion in training with my trainer Luis Valenca. It is not that I can't train him myself, but that I haven't enough time ot devote to a four year old at the moment. Luis is at Vila Franca near Lisbon. He takes horses for training, and if you were close enough, I could reccomend you send your horse there. He has had many difficult horses and they all come through it and are very happy horses.



Heather

[B W]

Wow! I was so happy to read that Heather suggested clicker training for this horse. I use it all the time on mine. When I first got him he mugged me all the time, pushing on me when we walked etc. When I would give him a carrot he nearly took my hand off and was quite nippy. I got the clicker and watched the video and within 10 minutes he was posing with his head about 2 feet from me in order to get his carrot. Now without the clicker, I bring a carrot to him and he poses his head away and looks out of the corner of his eye in order to get the carrot. He hasn't mugged or bitten me in almost a year. Also, when we walk he respects my space. Also, I've taught him voice commands like trot, walk, ho and since I am training him to relax I use the word "down" for his head to go down for relaxation. It really is amazing stuff but at my barn there's only two of us who use it and we are looked at like "treat ladys". Oh well. If it works I don't care. Not to say this would work with this horse but, it probably would. I wish Chapsi had someone who could help her whatever her decision.

[Heather]

I did part of a clicker training clinic with Alexandra Kurland when she was over here a couple of weeks ago, and then Alex came down here to stay with me as a guest. We had such a lot of fun- talking way into the night, and then doing clicker next day under saddle as well as on the ground, with my Hispano Arab, Fantasia, who took to like the proverbial duck too water.

He came over from Spain to Portugal early last year, and I imported him to England in June. He was a nightmare! I had to have him gelded within a week as he was a danger to himself and to others, having been perfectly sensible in Portugal when I rode him. As soon as he saw my mares here, he became a different animal and woudl have jumped over, or gone through almost anything to get to the women!

I am sure that if I had known as much about CT once his hormones started to drop - I truly don't think that anything would have worked whilst he was still pumping testosterone!- I would have had a rapport with him much quicker. I have always used food treats, so my horses are accustomed to them- using the clikcer just makes the reward so much more precise, as to why they have been rewarded.

I am incorporating clicker into my own training methods now, and Alex and I plan some joint ventures. She was enthralled by my horse movement simulator machine and loved my own riding teaching techniques. I feel that CT was the missing link in my own training, and Alex feels that my riding stuff is the missing link in hers, so expect a much closer integration with CT from me, from now on folks!


Heather

[chapsi]

Thanks everybody.

Well, the more I read your comments , the more I resent not been able to insinuate myself as my horse's alpha mare. This is what I truely needed, and then, being stuck here is also frustrating; I wanted so much to do humane horsemanship trainings, to do some courses with Kelly Marks and with Heather Moffett, with both I have so much to learn in diverse aspects of horsemanship.
Unfortunately I am here, to go to Britain for very short courses is too expensive, but around here there isn't much around within these lines.
Heather: do you ever come to Portugal to run courses? would you consider taking me as one of your students here?
As for the horse, he is not a savage as one imagines, he is quite calm, apparently good-natured, and in control of himself, which makes it even more difficult to understand his cold, "merceless" and "premeditated" attacks. It is quite clear that he developed his biting as a very efficient way of communicating when any thing displeases him, and of setting his boundaries within the herd. According to his former owner, he never had one before.

[saddlesore]

by the description you've given, it would seem your horse has been abused. his biting and other actions are more than likely a defense mechanism he has developed. if you are going to keep this horse (not sure that would be the best thing to do, but might be worth a try) in stead of trying to establish the "alpha" horse (or the strongest horse in the herd by means of bullying) i'd look at trying to relax him and gain his trust, spend time with him, without working him. once you've gained his trust than you can start schooling him, taking it slow and steady. there's some work involved. but if you are not up to the task (not every one would be) than it would be best to sell the horse.

and there was the analogy of your horse and a marriage. hopefully the person you marry is someone you've had the opportunity to get to know before you marry, unfortunately when buying a horse that is not always the case (sometimes more like buying a car). we hear of a horse for sale, we go take a look, we take it for a test ride, have a vet check it for soundness and then buy it. they are both a work in progress (if it's not worth working for, it's not worth having), with peaks and valleys. hopefully you don't divorce every time you reach a valley. trust is the foundation your relationship with your spouse and your horse is built. and your relationship should be a give and take, not take take or give give. definitely some similarities. good luck with your decision...

[constance]

being dominant, or the alpha leader, is a way to gain a horse's trust.

it will then feel it can look to you for guidance and protection.

is that not trust?

remember dominance in humans is nothing like dominance in horses; you don't have to be constantly threating or violent; if at all. it's about standing your ground and showing the horse his place using the same body language and strategy as an alpha horse in a herd.

it comes with practice.

[saddlesore]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by constance
[B]being dominant, or the alpha leader, is a way to gain a horse's trust.
____________________________________________________

that point is debatable. an action based on fear of consequence is not how i would define "trust". and an "alpha" horse is not a horse that is chosen by the other horses, he attains and maintains his status by defeating any horse that will challenge him or her. if you have ever seen the alpha horse of the herd, he's the one standing all by himself, looking for trouble. the other horses stay clear or will move away and clear a path when they see "alpha" coming for fear of what he might do to them if they don't. i have a tough time seeing that as trust.

[Tumbleweed]

I don't like calling horses Alpha or dominant, it means different things to different people. We are not horses, and although we try we do not speak there language.

I have not tried clicker training with horses but I have had some success with abused dogs. I tried the clicker with one of my own dogs who had been beated for coming back. It took me 4 years to get a decent recall, and that was because of the clicker, weeks once I started to use it.

There is also TTouch, again I have tried it with dogs but not horses, but if you go to Linda Tellington Jone's site, you will get information there. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the website.

While waiting to have my hip replaced I started to work with dogs but now I am back riding and teaching.

[constance]

but aren't monty robert's methods a form of dominance?

[KarinUS]

I would agree with Constance. Monty Roberts still has that alpha thing going on. Mark Rashid would be more the passive leadership type...

But anyway it sounds like this is something that can't be helped by reading books. Maybe it will be best for both, if Chapsi finds a more suitable horse and the horse finds a more suitable rider.

Reading all these posts about people getting lured into buying unsuitable horses really makes me feel so fortunate. I got my perfect, young, athletic, sweet horse right on first buy- so they are out there!
I don't know if I could be as brave and determined as you all (Chapsi, B W, and others) have been. It's too bad your great efforts have not been rewarded so far- still: hats off to you guys! :)

[Tumbleweed]

It is the labeling that I don't like, Mondy Roberts does not use force to dominate horses but by saying to some people that you have to dominate your horse, they think that you have to force the horse to obey, and some even think you have to beat them into submission.

When I first started riding, I had a wonderful instructor who always said that you had to ask a horse to do things not tell him, and if you asked often enough they would eventually do what you want. This is how I have always works, if my horse doesn't doesn't do as I ask, then he my not understand what I am asking, then it is up to me to make myself clearer and not beat him or use some other form of force.

You can be the leader without force, and yes, this is a form of dominance, but I prefer the iron fist in the velvet glove.

Margaret.

[bobbo]

Chapsi, there is a lot of sound advice here, and as usual it all contradicts the other! There is a lot to think about here, but I thought I would throw in a couple of points too. I am certainly not an expert, but I will say this:

Two months is absolutely nothing. You sound as if you have real feelings and love for this horse, or at least did have. It's very easy to feel that a difficult horse has it in for you, when I am sure that is not the case.

Have you got a little time on your hands, if so, why rush it. Maybe don't try so hard. Let your horse settle into being a horse, and then start very slowly from scratch. I don't think he is too old to learn. I too am a little nervous around horses and have had issues with a very dominant horse - I never thought I could learn to love the mare that was bossing me about, but perserverance and patience paid off, and now we are quite good friends.

If you don't want to invest the time, and your horse isn't giving you what you need, then maybe the best solution is to sell him to someone who can make the best of him.

Whatever you do, you sound the kind of person who I would want to own me if I were a horse, very thoughtful. I'm sure you will make the right decision.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

[chapsi]

Thank you guys for all your wonderful support. It really helped me a lot. I am no longer so depressed, I decided to take things as they come, each day at the time, because there are still many issues to sort, even if I sell Pegasus.
As for the horse, his biting carries on, her tried to bite me yesterday (not a big vicious bite, but a "p--- off" sort of attitude, when I started to remove his brushing boots afeter work), but fortunately the yard's owner was with me, and the horse was smacked just in the act, although I am not sure if hiting back in the answer...
Anyway, we devised an alternative workout plan, now he gets groomed with no fussing, gets tacked, lunged shortly and ridden in the arena (I won't take him out for the next few months, not until I feel confident in BOTH of us), after work he is sent quickly to his box to have his last meal. So far so good.
We are giving him the time and space to find his feet, to loose this nasty habit and to be willing to cooperate. In the meantime he'll get fitter, and his registration papers will be ready. If he shows improvement, fine, otherwise I'll try to sell him then.

[KarinUS]

That sounds like a terrible life for a horse. He can't be a horse at all. He doesn't get any time out with other horses?
Just locked up in isolation (eventhough it's roomy), worked and put back up?
Frankly I would get kind of cranky, too, with a life like that!
Horses are herd animals, made to roam (is it 20 miles per day?). His life is not natural at all. Chapsi I know you mean well, but IMHO you might be right: your horse might be mean, but he also doesn't get to live the kind of life a horse is meant to live either.

[chapsi]

Life around the yard is just as in the majority of stables around the country. Horses are stabled, live in boxes, they gather with other horses in lessons, go out hacking or they see each other around the yard. Here grazing is not a usual practice, both for other habits of horse rearing, as well as lack of suitable pastures. If a horse is put to grass at the yard generally it is on his own.
My horse's life is no different from hundreads of other horses' lives in many other countries. At least he is cared about, well looked after and worked out every day, which many other horse owners at the yard neglect to do!

[Bev Heron]

Chapsi,

I sympathize with your difficult situation, both the frustration of working with this horse (what is his name?) and having to choose which piece of the outpouring of heart-felt advice to take.

If I were in your situation, I would call in a professional psychic animal communicator. A reputable communicator can
- see much of what went on in the horse's in the past (specific abuses, etc)
- ask the horse what he is feeling and what he wants
- communicate your intentions to the horse
- communicate that if he doesn't behave, he will be evicted

I have trained in these techniques (with Penelope Smith), and saved a cat from eviction, but I am not a professional and have never worked with horses.

If this option fits at all with your belief systems at this trying time, PM me and I will give you the names of some reputable communicators. The 2 closest to you are in Germany, and one specializes in horses. The consultation can be done over email, so you could even do it with the best of the US communicators that I know personally, but I recommed at least a phone call.

Blessings and good luck.

Beverley

[KarinUS]

I apologize for my earlier outburst. I know you are doing your best. I just feel bad for horses that have to live under such unnatural conditions. :(
Like Floppy mentioned before: grazing isn't all that's to it. Even if he could be turned out in a more arrid pasture with other horses and a bale of hay- at least he would have companionship and relaxation?

[judyl]

I agree with the turnout questions. It is the most natural living for a horse. But we have to live in the real world and even though it would be PREFERABLE to have the horse live like this, you have other constraints that make this impossible.

I have read that if you have an arena, you could put some hay in and turn him out for a couple of hours. If he is friendly to other horses, you could maybe turn him out with another one for a time?

I am pleased to hear that you're not quite as depressed as you were to start with! :D You'll find this all the way through your horse ownership - ups and downs. All you can do is try to do your best for this horse and I'm sure everyone on New Rider is sending 'good wishes and luck' vibes through to Portugal for you. As you say - one day at a time. In a year or sos time when you look back, you'll wonder how you ever felt this way.

I hope everything continues to work for you both.

Judy

[chapsi]

If you consider positive turning out Pegasus in the arena, this is made often. Actually, he rolls a bit on the sand, but soon gets bored; only this week, for the first time I saw him jumping and bucking of joy. Perhaps occasionally I ought to turn him out with the sheep (he doesn't like them) in a field next to the arenas, although my experiences with the other yard's horses is that after a bit (after running, jumping of joy) they get bored and ask persistently to return to their boxes. Nobody at the yard favours their horses being turned with others, afraid of bullying, competition and fighting amongst them. Just to give you an idea, out of 14 horses there (riding school's and private) 6 are stallions and 1 is a mare. We always have to very careful with each others horses because of the stallions. In fact, Pegasus sees himself as dominant to the other geldings, I have seen him "growing tall", asserting his physical dominance to others.
Well, here is a picture of him the day he arrived (he looked far worse in real life). Soon I´ll post a photo of him taken this week, just over 2 months his arrival.

[Tumbleweed]

Maybe is is only just feeling well enough to start jumping and bucking when out in the arena. He has been underfed and it takes time for horses to recover enough to do normal horsey behaviour.

[nix]

Hello chapsi,

Poor you! And poor Pegasus! Firstly, whoever owned him before needs a good kick up the backside. From what you have said he was bordering on starvation and goodness knows what other abuse he suffered. Two months is only a very short time for him to get to know you and trust you. Although he may be looking and feeling better physically, emotionally he will probably take much longer to recover.

Very thin horses are usually depressed too. This would account for why he was so quiet, well behaved and, from your description, feeling sorry for himself. Now he is being looked after properly, physically he's much healthier but this energy is being negatively channelled due to his distrust and fear of people.

To help him through this he will need careful, firm but sympathetic handling by a calm and confident rider/handler. Read as much as you can and get as much help and advice as you can. If you really don't feel you can do him justice then, imho, try to find someone who can. After all, at the end of the day, you should be enjoying the time you spend with your horse.

This is just my personal opinion, but I hope it helps.

Nicki

[Bev Heron]

Originally posted by nix
Read as much as you can and get as much help and advice as you can.


I recommend a book published last year called She Flies Without Wings -- How Horses Touch a Woman's Soul by Mary Midkiff. In the chapter on Commitment, the author tells how she struggled with her current horse, Theo, who was also a difficult horse. It was 6 months before she had a breakthrough. Her approach was based on patience with Theo's tantrums more than on discipline and dominance, and not at all on anger and punishment.

This book might help you with Pegasus.

Blessings and good luck.

Beverley

[chapsi]

Bev,

I have that book, it touched me deeply as well. Perhaps too much, as it made me even more eager to establish a bond with my horse, but in turn he has been difficult and vicious at times. Anyway, I recommend it to any woman rider who wants to set herself free.

[Heather]

HI Chapsi,

My own horse Fantasia, was a nightmare when he arrived from Portugal last year. Still a stallion, he had been fine in Portugal where he had only other stallions in the yard. as soon as he cam here to England and saw my mares, he became a lunatic. He would have gone under, over or through anything, to get to the women, having probably hardly seen one since his Mother! Day after he arrrived, I went to lead him through my yard gate which is 4 feet high, and I was suddenly aware that a horse had just leapt my arm- which was trying to open the gate-plus the gate! Luckily I had a lunge rein on him and didn't let go, but within days I had made the decision to have him gelded as he was a danger to us and himself. I am used to stallions, having had them since a teenager, but I knew that Fanta could not live a normal life without being gelded.

He had lost a tremendous amount of weight on the journey over, despite being on the luxury lorry of an international horse transporter of considerable repute, but he had to travel over with mares and I think that he must have been beside himself, for the whole five day journey ( four overnight stops) and he was hardly recognisable as the horse I had ridden in Portugal six weeks before. Needless to say, gelding made him even worse condition-wise, and it took several months of four feeds a day, Equilibra etc to get the flesh back on him again.

I will try to find a photo of him when he first arrived - for those of you interested, there will be a lovely canter pic of him in this month's Your Horse in my article, so you can also see him as he is now- twice the horse again, that he even was in Portugal, and with a bigger neck than he had as a stallion!

My young stallion, still in Portugal, is not being turned out at all, which in many yards over there, is absolutely normal. I don't agree with it either, but he will be turned out daily as my horses are ( most of them out 24/7 at present) once he comes to the UK, so although he doesn't know it yet, he has lots of lovely Devon grass to eat as soon as he settles here and can be turned out safely. If it comes to it, I will also have him gelded, although as he is so well bred and absolutely stunning, I woudl love to keep him entire, but it depends on his state of mind, and his eventual welfare.

Again, with the clicker training, Chapsi, you can do much to relieve his boredom, and also to build your relationship with him.I would indeed try to turn him out with the sheep if you are allowed - most horses soon settle with them- we have sheep here on the farm too.

Heather

[Heather]

Incidentally, Fanta is now a different horse, he is more like a dog, has trust in me, and loves to be in my company. He has taken a lot of retraining under saddle and it has taken over a year to gain his trust to allow us to work him with the piaffe whip from the ground, which he now realises thanks to CT is not for punishment but merely as an extension to the arm or leg, and he is also allowing me to work him in hand which he used to panic about and try to rush off.

Heather

[Mehitabel]

you've been given some great advice chapsi, and i must say it's a tough situation. i've been in the same boat as you with copper (or the old git, as he's known). he was also mistreated, and being a strong character, like pegasus, his reaction was to get his bullying in first before anyone could do anything to him. as he got older and more confident in himself, he got nastier and nastier until he was an absolute horror. he once chased someone up a tree and wouldn't let them get down, he broke someone's arm when he bit them, i could go on for hours. in hindsight (it's a wonderful thing!) i, and the owner of the yard, who's a lovely and very experienced lady, handled it wrong. we tried to be nice to him, knowing his past, and bribed him to come in from the field etc. he was boss and he knew it, came in when he wanted to, stayed out when he didn't because he'd go for you in the field, fed well, loved and adored by me. i didn't want to be nasty to him, he was my baby and i loved him. then one day he went for me in the field and i lost my temper. i shouted at him, threw the headcollar at him and chased him round the field. when he stopped and looked at me (i've never seen a horse look so surprised) i was nice again, offered the apple, walked up to him, but when thw eears went back i shouted and jumped up and down and chased him off. 2 hours later i caught him, and although it'd be exaggerating to say we never looked back, it was definitely a turning point.

so the point of that ramble was that you don't need to be rough, or mean, to be the boss. it isn't about forcing the horse to be submissive. it's about him having some respect for you and knowing his place in the pecking order. being herd leader is a very stressful position for the horse, he has to watch out for danger, protect his herd (even if he has no herd) and be constantly on the lookout. when i made copper accept me as his boss, he gave me that responsibility and is much happier for it. he keeps his weight on much better (we used to struggle to keep him well-covered in winter), he no longer bites or kicks, and he is much more relaxed and a much happier boy.
there is hope for pegasus, but it might be that you aren't equipped to help him. i'm like rocketman - i can be the alpha/boss/lead mare/whatever convincingly, but if you can't do that, then you should sell him to someone who can, as it won't work if you don't believe in yourself.
i've had the old git 14 years, and he will sometimes challenge me for herd leadership by not letting me catch him, or biting me. i make a big noise and huff and puff (i don't hit him ) and he backs down, dignity complete - he's still a macho man, just not as macho as me!

[chapsi]

Well, a little update. Yesterday I turned out the horse out in the field with the sheep (which by the way went to another secure spot, I suppose they chose to keep themselves away from the horse); the grass is all dry, there were two hay bales there but he didn't want any. Well, as I released him he went simply beserk; he ran up and down the field on full steam, slipped down once and skidded a couple of times. After an hour and a half he asked to go back out. As we say in our country, "my heart was in the mouth", I was just worried in case he broke a leg...
As regards turning him out, the yard's owner isn't all that keen. He says it's all intirely to my responsability, as the horse can easily hurt a leg in his antics or catch a hoof in the wire fenching, that I must be watching him all the time, as other horses have hurt tendons before whilst turned out.

For Heather:
Do you ever run any courses, gice tuition when you come to Portugal? If so, would you consider accepting me?

[floppy]

chapsi - when a horse isnt used to being turned out the risk of it going a bit too wild and causing injury are alot higher than if you give your horse regular turnout. so although he was a bit wild and enjoying himself if you keep letting him out regulary he will run around a bit more carefully.

you horse needs to let off some steam and that is something that they cant do by riding,hacking or standing in a box.

im looking for to seeing an uptodate picture :)

[eml]

I feel so sorry for you that your dream horse is so difficult and that you are so restricted in where and how you can keep him. I am an experienced horse owner with over forty years behind me but I bought a horse that gave me identical problems. First having fed him up and introduced him to work and to our other horses he seemed fine but a bit 'indifferent' to us. After a while he started to try to dominate everything from people to other horses. After about a year of hassle I banned anyone else from going into a field or stable with him as he threatened to attack anyone except me. (although in the stable I had to be aware of his space). One day when rugging him up, never an easy business and usually avoided, he tried to attack me in stallion like manner with teeth and feet and I decided that we were not doing each other any favours and offered him to a girl who had worked for me and got on reasonably with him (he always was a delight to ride!) She took him home where he lived on his own and had one to one attention rather than our rather busy yard of 30 horses and many people. He has been perfect from that day. So don't think that you are letting this horse down . To sell him to someone able to offer a different life style may solve his problems and you will be far happier with someone able to live in the stables you can offer. (By the way I think geldings and stallions mixed is about the worst you can get for behaviour problems) Good luck with your difficult choices.

[Heather]

HI Chapsi,

No, I don't do any clinics etc in Portugal- go there for training myself in fact! I do teach in Holland and have invites to teach in other European countries but it is just time more than anything and once I get my young stallion home from Portugal next year, I will be even more loathe to go away from the UK!!

If ever I am asked to do a clinic in Portugal I will let you know- where are you - I mostly am round Lisbon when over there- go up to Gologa to the saddlers, but rarely go much further than Estoril in the other direction.



Heather

[doris]

Chapsi

You difinitely need some experienced help with this horse - I'm sure the behaviour is nothing to do with anything you have done, and it must be very upsetting for you. Please, Please log onto www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk and find an 'Associate' close to your home. They will come out and work with you and your horse and (hopefully) put things right. This needs to be done asap. It would be a shame to pass this animal on without trying to help him. Keep me posted, or email me for more info.

[Peace]

Hi, chapsi:

As others have said, it's difficult to give advice without actually knowing the situation. But I read back over this thread, and I think I understand from your posts that Pegasus is lazy, domineering, and uncooperative, but you don't consider him vicious.

Of course, if you feel he's dangerous at all, it'd be best to send him elsewhere. But he sounds so much like a mare I was assigned to ride years ago, who actually turned out to be perfect for me!

I was very nervous at the time (still not a confident rider), and I thought my instructor was out of her mind sending me into a stall with this large beast who kicked at the walls, lunged at me with her teeth, and struck at me with her front hooves!:eek: She also hated to be groomed or even stroked. She was lazy and uncooperative, and during our first lesson would not move without making loud growling sounds! After the lesson, several parents of students stopped by, while I was dodging around trying to untack her, to tell me the awful things she'd done to their children. (She'd since been assigned to adults only).

Like you, I was pretty sure this mare hated me. And I had no luck at all with the barn staff's recommendations to smack her and show her who was boss - she only redoubled her efforts. Finally I gave up trying to be boss and just did my best to keep myself safe while grooming and tacking up. I'd laugh at her when she was aggressive and make up little songs about how I knew she really loved me (not easy to do when your mouth is dry as dust - I'm a huge chicken!:o ) Maybe because she never got out of work, or because she felt she wasn't getting a rise out of me, she gradually became less and less aggressive.

And she turned out to be the perfect teacher for a nervous rider! Her faults became real assets once we got to know each other. She was so domineering that she wasn't afraid of anything, so she wouldn't spook. And she was far too lazy to tank off with me! She also hated the idea of my falling off, for some reason (maybe she thought I'd hurt her!), so she took excellent care of me and would adjust my balance for me when I lost it.

I guess the point of my story is that I think it's a little soon to conclude that Pegasus doesn't like you. The mare I described grew quite fond of me, and showed it by making an heroic effort not to hurt me when we had a freak accident once. My instructor told me afterwards that had I been with another horse I would have likely wound up in the hospital.

My other point is that this mare never did turn into what I'd call an affectionate companion. Although she was a good horse, affection just wasn't a part of her nature. If that's the case with Pegasus, and you really want a more loving horse, I don't see any shame in both of you moving on to other partners.

Good luck - sorry this is such a long post - please let us know how things are going! :)

[clipclop]

O'h Chapsi I really sympathise with your situation as your circumstances are just the same as mine were 4 years ago.

Yes I waited for that first horse and wanted a loyal patner to love and cherish, but what I got was a 16.2 dominant biting mare.

I too was a complete novice, I didn't want to be alone with this horse, lead her, ride her or put her rugs on, anything in fact.

Guess what. I still have her and I love her to bits. With gaining help from those people I trusted and respected and refusing help from those I didn't. I read an immence amount of horse literature as I knew I had to learn and learn fast.

I will do almost anything with her now and she does have respect for me now.

It is all about being very very firm but fair.
Body language helps too. Smacking is a waste of time in my opinion my mare had already been smacked around the head for biting hence she would through her head in the air as soon as she attempted to bite in anticipation of being smacked. (Can't reach up there at 16.2) Very clever and intelligent mare too.

TRY THIS FOR BITING.

At the first sign of an attempted bite. Stand up tall hands on hips make your self as big as you can and growl NO. ( Always wear long sleeves)

Its worth a try, also is there any chance that you boy could be a "Rig"?

Send me a private email if you would like to chat about anything, but I can also tell you that a horse that has already been mistreated does take a long time to find trust and even longer to respect you.

My horse appeared to have been previously ridden and handled in a dominant way and in certain circumstances still prefers to be told in no uncertain terms who is the boss, but I never smack her or treat her unfairly. Yes there are still sometimes when I have to either shout at her or reprimand her, but she does respect me now and is extememely loyal and in her own special way very very affectionate. They are all unique and if you do decide to keep this boy of yours you too will one day discover his own unique way of expressing his affection.
Good luck and if you do keep him find friends or people you admire, respect and trust to give you a hand.

[rocketman]

You know, that reminds me. I had a biting stallion once. He didn't mean to actually connect and hurt anyone, but it was a nuisance. Everybody who went into his stall ended up flapping and waving their arms at him. It was part of the game. He would flinch and blink his eyes and, the moment your arm was down, come in for another attack.

I stopped him by wearing a wire scrub brush on my hand, bristles pointed outwards. When he made the gesture to bite, I merely raised my hand and let him punish himself by his soft lips coming into contact with the wire bristles.

It worked a charm and he decided I was definitely no fun to bite since I was so prickly!

[Shady_Indigo]

Chapsi your horse sounds so much like my mare used to it's uncanny. I found her in a paddock, dirty water, no rugs, wet and dirty. Apparently her then rider was too big for her so they didn't do anything with her, she was just left in her paddock all day, she saw the farrier every 7 weeks and her water was checked once a week. I started coming over to see when ever i had a spare moment, just so she knew someone was interested in her. To begin with, i could stand near here, talk to her but touching...not a chance. That didn't worry me at the time because all my life i had wanted my own horse or pony and it was starting to feel like she might as well be mine. So i was happy just to be near her. After months...like FIVE months, i was able to get her to come up to me and take a carrot from my hand, but still coundn't touch her. 7months i was able to pat her everywhere, and groom her a bit. That was about a year ago now. Up until about 3 months ago, i was riding her around the paddock a little bit with a snaffle bridle and no saddle. She basicly did what she wanted, it was all i could do not to fall off on one of her wild gallops around her paddocks. It took hours to catch her, and it truely did seem like all she wanted me for was to give her her haynet after work and snatch some carrots from me. One day, i was trying to catch her for 2 hours, i can't even count how many carrots i went through, she would just take one then run before i could get the lead rope around her neck. She would snatch hay from the hay net as i took it up to the fence where i tie it, and i let her. This was a big mistake. So after that day of trying to catch her unsecessfully, ending in me throwing a handful of carrots at the ground, storming off and telling her that that was it! I wasn't coming back! I didn't come back for a few days, i knew she would be ok, she had clean water and plenty of grass. When i did come back, i came back with a new attitude, RESPECT! No more snatching from the hay as i take it up, im the top horse and i eat first, you can eat when i say you can. No more trying to hide the lead rope behind my back, she now knows fully what my intentions are, i won't hide anything from you if you work WITH me. If she runs away from me, i make her trot away from me, if she trots away from me, i make her canter away from me by chasing her for a few steps. In return i work fairly with her, if she does something that i didn't want to do, like back up from something, the first thing i think is "Was i giving the right aids for what i wanted, was i clear and firm enough?" It is ALWAYS the riders fault when something happens they don't want to. In return she has come to respect me and knows that i am there for her and that she can rely on me as i rely on her to keep me safe. All horses want to be lead (why do you think the majority of horses dislike being in the lead in a group lesson? they just want to follow) But they won't follow if they don't have someone or something that they respect.....
Your horses needs respect, respect for YOU and you in turn need to respect and trust your horse..have faith in him, he is not a naughty horse, he is just lost without his leader.

[anuvb]

Hi Chapsi,

What a tough one to call. However, you have been given some excellent advice and I might be repeating what others have said.

First and foremost, you need to learn to manage the situation so that it is bearable for yourself - regardless of whether you decide to sell or keep him. It is no good keeping a horse if you are frightenend of it. Horse ownership, whilst hard at times, should always be enjoyable. If you cannot enjoy it, the horse will sense your mood and your fear and no amount of training, natural horsemanship etc will make it a positive experience for you and the horse. You'll always be fighting a losing battle. This is particularly bad if you're a relative novice and are struggling to read the signals that the horse is giving you. Misunderstandings occur between horses and their rider/owner all the time and it is difficult enough to read the signals from a perfect schoolmaster, it is even harder with a horse like Pegasus.

If you are going to think about managing the situation, then yes I think turnout is a good idea. If you are concerned about the horse going a little bit wild, then I would consider investing in some electric fencing. Fence off a small portion of your turnout area and gradually introduce the horse to ever increasing sizes of paddock. Secondly - get yourself a good instructor, who is preparedto come to come your yard and work on the ground with you. It doesnt have to be natural horsemanship person, as long it someone who fits your requirements in terms of general ethos and handling of horses. What they do need to be, is more experienced than you and someone who is prepared to work through even the small basic things with you. If finances are tough and you can't afford this, then I would seriously ask yourself if you have enough financial back up to realistically sort out Pegasus' problems. You have to make the decision whether you are in this for the long haul, or if you are secretly hoping that everything is going to be okay in six months time. If your answer is the latter then the best solution for yourself and Pegasus is to part company.

Finally, I can't give you easy remedies for this. There aren't any. If there were I'd be making a fortune! :) What I can tell you is that you are worrying too much about being the so-called "dominant" one in the relationship. Yes, it is important that the horse respects you but it's not going to happen unless you lose your fear of him and that doesn't happen overnight. If Pegasus has been badly treated over the years, then the person that has done this to him has done it out of fear of Pegasus - for whatever reason. Any fear that you have, Pegasus will associate this with whatever treament he went through before. If he was starved, he is going to get territorial about his food. If he was beaten, he is going to bite before he risks that happening to him again. If you're frightened then you are going to react inappropriately. If he's frightened then he'll do the same. Perhaps the reason that other people have less problems with him, is not that they are more bossy, but because they don't have an inherent fear of him. You said in one of your posts that you have had to handle him more harshly than you would like. There is a very subtle difference between aggressive handling, done out of fear, and assertive handling. If you handled him more harshly because of fear then it won't matter if you do it again and again the situation won't get any better. You have to teach yourself to handle him calmly. It is better to growl at him with a cool head so that you remain a rational thinking being, then to shout at him out of fear. You need to assess whether with help you think you can learn this alongside Pegasus, because if you can't then your relationship is not going ot improve.

Good luck and let us know what decisions you come to.

[Tina J]

You have my sympathy Chapsi. You and your horse don't sound compatible personalities. Your horse sounds as if he is both dominant and insecure, which are not good combinations. You ask early in your postings whether there is such a thing as an affectionate horse. Yes - I've got one. But he's the first openly demonstrative horse that I have met in over 30 years of riding (now we're going to get lots of postings from other people saying how affectionate their horses are!). Most horses show a lot of cupboard love, and will bond with their owners well, but few (in my experience) ask to be groomed or rubbed, or "talk" (with different grunts, whiffles, huh-huh-huhs etc) in the way that a dog does. In fact my friend says that my chap has become more like a dog than a horse. The thing is - he wasn't like this when I got him. We have done a lot of work on the ground, using natural horsemanship principles, so that he has become confident that he understands me, and that I am always going to be the same. Trial and error for both of us has determined how hard he likes to be rubbed, where, and how fast (the answer is much harder than I first thought, he angles his face, neck or body to where he wants rubbing, and faster than I first thought) If you watch horses interacting, and see how they groom with their teeth and how they warn each other you realise that horses often deal with each other much louder and tougher than their soppy humans treat them. If you are a soft, slow, less than confident person, then you need a less dominant horse. My chap is kept with someone elses horse and they are not really compatible personalities either (the human and her horse - the two equines get on well). This other horse is very dominant, and his owner started off thinking that I was a bit harsh in the way I responded to him. But my "harsh" behaviour (he kicks, I kick him back shouting loudly and immediately. He pushes me over, I slap him loudly in the chest) has meant that I can also reward him for good behaviour, so that now he doesn't kick out at me, steps back and respects my space, and stands and waits if I have to feed him, instead of barging and biting. I am no longer "harsh" with him, and a glare at him if he looks like he is thinking of being naughty is usually enough.

This is a long winded way of saying that you and your horse don't sound compatible. But don't worry about men being rough with your horse. Look closely. They may be behaving more like other horses, which your horse understands, respects and can feel confident with. If you can find him a home where your horse seems happy with the human (even if that human is a bit harsh by your standards) then sell him. And good luck with your next horse.

[B W]

I know this is about chapsi's horse and her struggles with him but since we're talking about ways to get through situations with our horses I thought I would post on this thread. If anyway remembers, about a month ago my horse blew up due to pain and he bucked me off and reared. I've been on him one since but that was bareback with some help and inside the round pen. To date I haven't riden him. I don't have anyone to help me with him and I think my instructor is sour on him now that she saw him blow up. I just can't give up and let him hang around and get fat! I want to work him and get past this issue but don't know how. Heather mentioned clicker and I've used that with him and he responds nicely. I've used it both on the ground and in the saddle but my instructor thinks he's not the kind of horse you can do that with since he takes advantage. Since he has bucked me off I see that he is tense when I get on him. I think he expects pain, probably from previous owners and poor fitting saddles. I think this because all this bad behavior started when I had a poor fitting saddle that made him very sore. Now the saddle fits and he isn't sore but he braces when I get on him. Then when he walks off he pops up on the front. Before the big blow up I was able to ride that and say "stop it" and he would settle down and he was a wonderful horse. I've riden him on trails and he is great, has the most wonderful walk, a most athletic horse. He's not spooky and he will just walk all day with me. We've had some nice rides together and I try to remember those days and forget the bucking and rearing but I'm afraid to get back on him. He is still very tense when I work him in the round pen. I think the whole tacking up process makes him "build up" and then when I get on he just can't control himself until he walks around a minute. Any suggestions on this issue? What about the clicker? Any ideas on that? Thanks.

[floppy]

have you thought of long-reining or lunging him when he is tacked up to get him use to the saddle again before you climb back on bored?

if he gets all tense up while being tacked up and then explodes when you sit on him i think lunging him would be better because it will allow him to let out a few bucks etc without you falling off and becoming more anxious. IT will allow him time to settle down with his new saddle and let him learn it isnt going to bit him. And when you are happy with him then you can progress to sitting on him.

how does he react to you riding him bareback? if thats ok then you can make upa program or lunging/long reining him all tacked up on one day and then the next day you can ride him shortly without a saddle in the round pen or something then the day after back to lunging.

If you think clicker training is working then use it to your advantage.

[cvb]

just been catching up on this thread. A little surprised not to see more on the physical effects over time.

We bought a pony who really did not look that underweight, but got him vetted and he was anaemic. At that stage he was quiet, docile etc. Started to get decent grass and so on, and gradually got more energetic and difficult to handle !

Two months is not much time to get your horse's body sorted out. Even if he looks a million times better, he will take some time to be ok. So as well as the mental healing, he needs time physically as well. This could be why he comes across as lazy and unenthusiastic.

[B W]

Floppy: Yeah I hooked him up to long lines and "drove" him around. At first he looked around at me as to say "what are you doing back there?" but after that he did great. Very smart which is probably his biggest problem. Hopefully I can tack him up this weekend and lung him for awhile. I may just lung and then untack and be done, then next time lung and get on. I did get on bareback a week after he bucked and reared and he was worried but he did fine. He is really tense right now. I wish I had my own place where I could work him every day to get him over that. And this weekend I will definately be using clicker. He forgets he's tense when there's carrots to be had. Thanks for your reply.

[chapsi]

Hi everybody.

A little time has gone by, so I suppose I ought to give you a little update. A few issues have crept to my mind.
Pégaso (Pegasus in Portuguese) is suddenly becoming very strong, willed and physically, he is blossoming into a very, very strong and muscled horse.
In he meantime he found other new tricks to avoid being lunged adequately by me; I can change the rein, but he stopped cantering willingly; nowardays he cannot be bothered to do anything else from a very slow trot or just walk; if I mean "business" and go towards him with the lunge whip he just stops, turns around and threatnens to rear. Anyway, the other day he was anoid with me (I could sense it, so at this stage I just released him off the rein); the yard's owner arrived at that moment, came in the arena to greet me and instead was greeteed by Pégaso, who launched a bare teeth attack on him.
I am learning that his frustration turns into no warning attacks; he cannot be pushed too much and needs to be exercised/worked out a bit on his terms.
Instead of this daily exercising (not just as training but as a way of burning off his energies - don't forget he is stabled), I ride him more in the arena and I turn him out in the sheep's paddock and in a small enclosed orchard. He gallops, jumps in the air, but after a while wasks to be back out again. Thursday I nearly had a heart attack, as I watched him, he was galloping around the orchard until he went full steam ahead, right through the wire fencing; he took the fence down with him, fell down and was a little limp for a while. He waited quietly for me to get him out, he had a "please, come and take me away" sort of expression.
But I noticed a few little things: I couldn't visit him for a day, the next day he greeted me as if he had really missed me (does it make sense?), ears forward, head down, asking for a head rub - unique for him, I could hardly believe... Twice (although I was being supervised by the yard's owner; by the way, this gentleman works/supervises me with Pegaso since the day he arrived) he has allowed me to pick and clean his back hooves without kicking, gently in fact.
Anyway, I consulted an animal communicator (I'll leave the content of that communication for another forum). The results and my horse's messages were indeed interesting, but left me feeling anguished ever since, as I cannot fullfil his expectations. However, I am making an effort to give space and time on his own out in the field (although not long, I cannot watch over him the whole day; just 1 or 2 hours) and I am going to apply some of Linda Telligton-Jones methods on him (massage to relax him and some ground work). We both take a day at a time.
All I can say is that I love this horse and feel connected to him.

[Tumbleweed]

Chapsi,

Have you lunged him with 2 lunge lines instead of one, this will give you more control over him.

Instead of attaching the line to the centre D ring, have one on each of the side D rings. Take the outside line over his back to start with then as he gets more used to it you can have it behind his hind legs, making sure that it doesn't drop lower than his hocks., The inside line is used the same way as normal.

If he turns to come into you, you can pull the outside line to stop him. When he is able to have the line behind his hind legs, you can use the line to encourage him forward. I find this easier than having a whip.

You hold the rein one in each hand.

[chapsi]

Lungeeing with two lines sounds complicated, although efficient. I saw it just once being done, in England by some friends who were starting a young horse. Here in the country I never saw it being done.

[floppy]

lunging with 2 lines ia ctually more easier than one line and less complicated than you think.
I just started to learn a few months ago how to double lunge because im am hopeless with my horse with one lunge line.

and now i can control her ALOT better and she stands on whatever hand i make her go forward on no problems..before she use to rear and jump around in the other direction.

The only thing that is challenging is holding 2 lines and a a lunging whip at the same time. So i have opted that i also do it with this lady at the the yard and while i lunge she stands next to me with the whip - much easier until you can do it alone.

dont forget you can double lunge with or without a saddle and because you have quite alot more control with your horse you can talk him walks when you are good at it!

[Tumbleweed]

"The only thing that is challenging is holding 2 lines and a a lunging whip at the same time"

I have always found that this is dangerous, too much for your hands to control. You can make your horse move forward by a quick flick on the outside rein. Horses are very sensitive, they can feel a fly on their skin, and if you flick the rein they feel it.

[marge]

At 50yrs of age i too was able to have my dream come true of having horses again. After I bought my first horse (24 yrs old now) who I love dearly, a friend (?) talked me into buying a second horse, a three year old colt that the owners couldn't afford to feed. He was pretty and seemed friendly. I had him gelded and had him for a year. I don't believe he was abused before I bought him, but he and I just didn't bond. He constantly pushed me, would strike with his front feet, and tried to nip me. I believe in not letting a horse into my space, but nothing I did seemed to work with him.

When I rode him at four he waited until we got to a slope and started bucking like a bronco. I stayed on for about five bucks and went over his shoulder. I sent him to a trainer for 6 wks. He seemed to have done well, but there was still that battle with him when I tried to handle him. I could never relax and enjoy him or trust him. I finally traded him for another horse that I trusted and feel good with. This new horse is always looking over the gate for me to come and get him and enjoys being with me. I have three other horses and none of these horses are like that one that I didn't bond with. We don't always get along some people we meet, maybe we just don't get along with some horses too.

If you can keep him a bit longer without being harmed I'd give him a chance to come around, but if it gets where you feel as if you will be hurt, I'd sell him. There's too many nice horses out there that would appreciate a good owner such as yourself.

[chapsi]

Your comments are fair. In a way I am giving him more time. I truely hope it works, because I felt "he was the one".
When I saw him, I fell in love with him, I felt caught by his big shinny eyes.
In fact, he has a tender warm look in his eyes, although his ears don't match that attitude.

[clipclop]

Everyone comments on my mares lovely large kind eyes and her ears don't match them either. Her barks worse than her bite though.

[chapsi]

I know what you mean. Perhaps I'll get used to it. Today I had a nice ride in the arena with Pegasus. I could canter better, I didn't feel so afraid and he was keen to do what I asked him. Days like this make up for the painful ones, in spite of the fact that earlier he had tried to bite me on the back (I then had a tantrum and threw all his grooming brushes at him).

[chapsi]

I need your opinions on this one. Well, Pegasus is becoming increasingly difficult with picking his hooves. I am stunned; he used to allow me so nicely to pick his front hooves (one of the very few things I could do for him)... and now?! I am giving him the the benefit of having a hurt hoof or frog, although the yard's owner says he is just being awkward. Apart from that he kissed me twice today. I am in love!!!
However, I don't feel safe with him by no means. I know he can display unpleasant unexpected behaviour. When I put the brushing boots on him I hate to feel his lips on my ears, nose, head. I am just too afraid that he might bite me at such vulnerable spots.
Back to his hooves thing, do you think he is being awkward or telling me that his hoof is not right? He is not lame, thou. Anyway, I am having the vet to check his teeth next week, and I'll ask him to examine his hoof. The yard's owner reckons he is testing once more, but this time I am listening to my horse, giving him the benefit of the doubt, until the vet proves me wrong.

[Tumbleweed]

Chapsi, you know your horse better than anyone else, he may be playing you up or there may be something wrong. You are right to get the vet if you have any doubts.

For the brushing boots, if you are not happy with putting them on, could you leave them off for a short while until you got your confidence back. Or you could put a lunge line on, thread it through a ring on the wall and back to your hand. Then whenever he goes near your head, you can pull the line and pull his head away from you. He won't realise that it is you doing it either.

[floppy]

silly question but do you alwyas wear a riding hat when handling your horse?

I mean you say you hate it when you feel his lips around your ears and your head when you are putting his brushing boots one...if you arent wearing a helmet put one on.

I just witness the other day when a horse in his stable tries to bite everything that walks past and a little girl wlaked past wth her helmet on and he tried to bite her but didnt get far because of the helmet..he just went straight for her head - not in a so aggressive manner.

as for the foot i once saw that if you tap the hoof with a bit of pressure from your own foot the horse will eventually pick its hoof up...never tried it.

[KarinUS]

but this time I am listening to my horse, giving him the benefit of the doubt, until the vet proves me wrong.

I think that is a great idea.:)
Poor chapsi, about having to be afraid to get bitten. That must be sad. Floppy's advice sounds rather reasonable!

[cvb]

if its just one foot, then maybe you can accept an excuse until the vet has been. But a pair or all.. would sound more like trying his luck.

Apparently pinching their chestnuts works as well. Tried it and it does seem to !

Also if he will let someone else do it, then it can't hurt that much.

I think you have a horse full of character, and you need to make it clear that you are at very least an equal partner. (I'm not into all this dominance stuff - I mean these are big animals. But that does not mean we can not be 'leader').

Give yourself plenty of time to do things (like picking out feet). Then without any 'hurry up' pressure, do it on your terms. Even if he has sore feet, you need to be able to look at them to treat them.

How will you e.g. poultice them if he won't let you pick them up ?!

Me thinks the horse doth protest a much (to misquote Shakespeare)

[chapsi]

Well, he is refusing to lift his hoof (front left), and the remaining he makes a fuss, but eventually allows me to (to be quite honest, his back hooves are still an issue, I have to try a few times if he is in a mood to pretend to kick). The yard's owner also had a lot of problem to do it... so this made me think that he might feel hurt, although we cannot see anything wrong.
Wearing an helmet is a good idea. I had a period when I wore a body protector, but I wonder, if I present myself in an armour all the time, he will never trust me.
I find this whole matter very strange. I know the horse is hard, awkward and strong willed, testing all the time, but for goodness sake, I have been cleaning his front hooves with no problem for the last 3 months, and he was just starting to give me his back ones. I find it hard to imagine that he thought "oh, my owner is doing too good cleaning my hooves, I think I'll give her a hard time!"oh, my owner is doing too good cleaning my hooves, I think I'll give her a hard time

[mikka]

Hi, Chapsi, this has nothing to do with your last post but I was wondering if you know at what age Pegasus was gelded?

[cvb]

given what I have read about your horse before, then I think you have to be calm, patient, and just take your time.

If it takes 1 minute or 30 to pick out his feet,as long as you do it without either of you being hurt, does it matter so much ?

It must be so much more difficult for you to e.g. know if he is in pain physically or just having a pyschological flashback of some kind.

[Peace]

Wearing an helmet is a good idea. I had a period when I wore a body protector, but I wonder, if I present myself in an armour all the time, he will never trust me.

I'm certainly no expert, but I find that whatever makes me feel more confident helps me inspire trust in the horse. I always wore a helmet around my grumpy girl, and if I'd known such a thing as body protectors existed, I might have worn one of them as well!:D

I also think you're right to give Pegasus the benefit of the doubt until the vet gives him the all clear.

Apart from that he kissed me twice today.

That's great - it sounds like y'all are making progress!

[chapsi]

Mikka,

I think Pegasus was gelded at about 4, maybe 4 1/2 years old, but I am not sure. In the arena with other horses he behaves (riding) good as gold, but when he is free, he loves to provoque the others and to impress them as dominant. In fact, I cannot stop admiring him; full blow, tail up in the air, snorting, running close to the fence provoquing the other horses (he did this with a stallion who was in the arena next to his field) who are not as lucky as him.

[clipclop]

Hi Chapsi.

Mmmm. If Pegasus has been ok with you picking out his feet in the past then all of a sudden doesn't want you to do it and there is nothing wrong. Then is it possible someone else on the yard with a less than sympathetic point of view could have tried to pick his feet out while you were not there?

Some people become over assertive with difficult horses.

[chapsi]

It could be, but I don't think so. I am the only person who handles, a part from the stable groom who only moves him to muck his stable/feed him, or the yard's owner (and even though he never touches the horse unless I ask him to).
I tapped him on his hoof as Floppy suggested, but he didn't like that... he jumped up and was cross with me.
Anyway, the vet is coming this week.
All I can tell is that he doesn't limp and he runs like mad. I just find it hard to accept that he decided to be awkward with his front hooves after all this time.

[galadriel]

I knew someone who moved her horse into her "friend's" new farm as a show of support and friendship and stuff. She started to suspect they were doing weird things with her horse...then one day walked into fond them clipping him, with her clippers! He is to this day a brat to clip after having originally been very friendly and tolerant about the clippers.

Obviously I'm not there & don't know the people who ever handle Pegasus; just thought I'd share. People do strange things sometimes.

[anuvb]

Chapsi,

I wouldn't worry too much about going in dressed in "armour". - as a general rule horses don't really relate to this sort of thing unless they associate the helmet/body protector with something bad. If you're just going into to groom and pick his feet out, then this shouldn't be a confrontational situation. If you don't wear something to protect you and you're nervous it automatically turns the situaiton into a conflict between you and him. If you wear body protection, then you automatically take away your fear as you know he can't hurt you.


My biggest concern here, is that I think you're confidence has been knocked so much that you might percieve anything that P. does as aggressive. I also think you might be humanising your horse too much. With following "natural horsemanship" theories there is a danger of misunderstanding and applying human responses to a horse. All good natural horsemanship techniques are based on treating a horse as a horse and just a few of the things you have said sound like you have reached a point of despair with this horse, in which you can't reasonably determine the difference between your feelings and interpretation of the situation and his. Horses do react differently to the way humans do. If you have found that there is no physiological reason for P. to struggle to pick his feet up, then it is not uncommon for horses to use this as a way to assert their dominance. For a horse, it's only means of escape is by running, by allowing you to pick up it's feet it is a sign of trust that you are not going to put him in a situation where he needs to run quickly. By not letting you pick his feet up, then it is him saying one of two things: (a) - I am the boss and therefore I will not trust you pick up my feet (which may also be linked to Cvb's response of him now being well enough to assert his dominance and superiority) or (b) I am frightened of you and will not pick my feet up.

Personally, I think sometimes you have to be realistic and the perfect horse or not - may be you are not the perfect partnership. see how it goes with picking his feet out. If the situation proceeds in the manner it is going at the moment, then you are doing yourself and P. a great diservice. He needs someone who can give him the best out of life and you need a horse that can do the same for you. It's not admitting defeat. It's accepting your limitations.

[Waikato Valuta]

galadriel

It sound very strange that they were cliping the horse as the owner would notice if the horse was cliped or not.

[Wilma]

Chapsy, I see that you are in Portugal? That must be wonderful country! Anyway, don't be depressed. I am 58 yrs of age and have had exactly the same dreams of having a horse and started late. (2 years ago) I got some bombs like you wouldn't belive! and at riding school, I remember one of the instructors telling me that what I was doing there if I was so scared! that was embarrassing to say the least. Get yourself another horse. When you buy your next one, ride him more than once see if he comes to you easily. If he is easy to saddle and pick up his roof. But most of all you need to find a buddy to help you out. Even a paid one. that's what I did. I'm still scared of them, but I ride as my daily challenge. Sometimes I ride just for 5 minutes, then I get really frighetned but I tell myself. I don't care, I mounted him. Tomorrow I will do better.

[chapsi]

:D :D Look I am smiling, I am singing. I am over cloud 9!
Well, I started this thread 5 weeks ago shattered and brokenheart. Now I feel different, and so does my horse.
I took on Bev's advice and I contacted an animal communicator. The results were devastating, I was in shear anguish as I felt powerless to accomodate my horses requests/needs.
However, this did good to me (it is not the point wheather animal communicators are genuine or just fakes). I turned everything around with what was available. I re-addressed the whole issue.
So, no more boring work. Pegasus doesn't like to be lunged, ok. I'll respect the horse. He is an animal in its right, he deserves to be respected, not used just as a pleasure object.
So, the plan has been: I come from work (as I always did), give him a quick groom and turn him out in the field with the sheep until dusk. So he has been turned out on daily basis for 1 1/2 hour. I know its too short, but under the circunstances I can't do any better. Anyway, at 7.30 pm, after his last gallop he knocks on the gate to be out. I ride him on the weekend.
I became the laughing stock of the yard because of my ideas on horsemanship, but I am proud of it. I am certain and confident that I keep my horse's best interests and well-being at heart.
The thing is, Pegasus has the chance to run, to gallop, to roll on the mud if he wants to, whilst the others just look sad.
At the same time I did all my efforts to control my insecurity and to trust him more.
We have been moving towards each other since then. He stopped the nasty attacks and looks much more happier and relaxed. If something displeases him, he warns me that he is loosing patience and about to bite. I tell him off, but immediately after, I stroke his muzzle to reassure him and often he responds by licking my hand.
I can groom him peacefully and he likes it. He enjoys to be massaged, he even stretches his neck for a vigoroous rub with the rubber curry. I bathed him last Sunday, did all his care with toiletteries and he consented. He is getting used to be stroked, to accept being spoken by a gentle voice, that he is a gorgeous boy.
At the same time, if he smells my head, ears, pokes me with his muzzle and lips as I put his brushing boots on, I hold on tight and let him do so (believe me, it feels insecure knowing of his outbursts). If I pushed him away at this stage I would be showing lack of trust. At night, as he eats his last feed I stroke his body and he's ok about it. In the beginning I was terrified and he used to threat to kick, but now I am relaxed and so is he.
Apart from the hassle I have with one of his hooves, he allows me to pick the others. This is a victory, as he wouldn't allow his hind hooves to be picked!!!
Things are not ideal but far better. I feel we are definately getting somewhere. We are in the beginnning of a new partnership.
Another thing, a few of you have been suggesting is that he is a rig. In fact, the more I watch his behaviour in freedom and get to know him, the more I am convinced that he has a stallion streek on him. He patrols the field as his, troting with legs high up, head and tail up, looking tall, snorting loudly... he provokes in particular the other stallions and today he saw a man riding a mare out on the road. He was like mad, courting her. :p :p
Just as someone said on another forum: "tell the gelding, discuss the stallion". So, I am assuming he is like a stallion. Whatever, I negotiate and we get there. No more I am concerned with being his alpha mare or not. I am not looking for a domination- submission relationship, just intimacy, trust, a bonding relationship.
He looks magnificent! I love him dearly and I am so proud of him.
Thank you everybody for your encouragement. Yes, I believe in my horse, he is not bad. It's just a question of time and TLC

[Bev Heron]

Chapsi,

It's so wonderful to hear of the changes! You deserve so much credit for your patience, courage, compassion, and following your instincts. Best wishes for continuing happy developments.

[anuvb]

Absolutely brilliant news!!!!

I am so pleased for you! Just the tone of yoru last post indicates how much your confidence has improved around this horse, which I retiterate enough is the main issue. I am really pleased that you have managed to srt out the feet thing as after all your other posts I was really worried that P. was getting even more dominant. It seems he is fianlly beginning to learn how to be a horse again.

All the best.
Dawn

[Peace]

I admire your courage and perserverence! And I'm so happy it's paying off - maybe your success will inspire some of the folks at your barn to change their ways!

[doris]

Well done. I'm so pleased that you now have the beginnings of a true bond with your horse. May you have many years of love and pleasure together. It's good to know that you got so much advice from this forum, and listen, and took the advice. It sounds as if it paid off.

[Tumbleweed]

Well done, and congratulations, you are now well on the way to a partnership, which I much prefer.

It is a wonderful feeling when you turn round an animal, and you will always have a special bond with him. I a really proud to know you, you are a inspiration to others.

[Tangle]

Congratulations Chapsi - I came fairly late to the thread but reading through the lot it looks like you've come increadibly far in such a short space of time. I really hope things carry on getting better and better for both of you :)

[floppy]

now that is a happy turn for your thread :)

keep it up and let us know how you progress :)

[chapsi]

Thanks, thanks, everybody. I did all kinds of good advice. Some encouraging, other at times contradictory, but very supportive on the whole. Thank you so much. This is why New Rider's forum have proved to be so important to all of us. Here, sat on my computer, well far away from you geographicaly, I feel part of a real community, a good, soud support network.
Obviously things are not perfect, but I truely feel now that I am geting somewhere. It's the beginning.
There is still a long way ahead. Both me and the horse are green, we are both insecure, we lack self-confidence, both have a lot to learn and skills to develop.
For once I need to sort my riding, to overcome my fears in order to venture hacking with him.
I just wish I had better conditions to turn him out longer.
Oh, well, I am tryiing my best. And the thing is, I am very pleased that it has been damn hard, but he has been treated fairly, I have managed to spare him to violence.
I also must say that on my own I wouldn't have got this far. The yard's owner is an old fashion gentleman, he has been by our side all the time. I owe him all his help.
Anyway, soon as have his latests photos, I'll post them to you. The horse is now back to normal, in restored condition.

[Mehitabel]

that's fantastic news chapsi, really glad you and pegasus have found some common ground. don't feel guilty about the amount of turnout - it's the best you can do and a hell of a lot better than none at all! well done.

[Jo]

Rocketman's advice is sound - but before taking it, Chapsi, I would ask myself some straight questions and honest answers. You sound like a very nervous rider - are you backing-off Pegasus? It's not a nice fact but it's a fact nonetheless that horses will try it on and will do whatever they can get away with. Pegasus doesn't have to be nasty to behave like this. I know horses who are angels for experienced and confident handlers but could be termed dangerous with handlers who mistake firmness for nastiness.

I have a mare who seems indifferent to me - if I have something for her she's intersted but otherwise she tells me to sod off! I have had her for three years and only now am I really bonding with her. Reading this post, it seems that's the average bonding time. 3 months is no time at all.

But if you are very nervous and are not hopeful that things might change, do as Rocketman says. And don't be upset that he seems good for others - it happens! He tests you because he recognises you as his owner, but not his leader, as yet!

Don't despair - there are easy horses out there. If Pegasus is genuinely a problem horse, give him to somone who can deal with him, or he'll be dangerous soon and then there is only one outcome...

[chapsi]

Reading your comment I don't quite think you read attentively these threads right up to the end.
Of course 3 months is not enough for bonding, but as I said, there is so much improvement both on the horse and on myself (how I feel around him, how I feel about the whole issue and within myself plays also important part), things are very different and clearly we are now in the BEGINNING of something GOOD. We are now in the process of bonding - I know it, I can sense it. Besides, not all animals take same time to bond, some might even never bond.
Therefore, right now wouldn't make much sense giving up on him. Now more than ever is the time to fight for him and to win him over.
He is a good horse, doesn't have to be an angel nor do I have to be his leader. A partnership is what I want, not a domination-submission relationship as I stated before. He has all the right to be treated with respect, not to be used as a pleasure object. Of course I am also entitled to my space and bounderies are to be set for both of us.
At 41 one sees life in a different perspective. I have all the time ahead of me to achieve this, and I shall do it patiently, bit by bit. Pegasus has taught me not to expect, but to take each day at a time.
process ;)

[cvb]

also, although it can take a while, bonding is not an all or nothing thing. Your relationship grows slowly. So while you might get to the 3 year mark and think 'wow I have a much better relationship now', you have normally had the start of the bond for some time. Enough to keep you both going and keep the relationship together.

I've just had my mare for a year. And at the weekend I fell off for the second time. The first time, when we had been together for just 5 months, she went into complete panic and ran home. This time she went once around the outdoor school and then saw me on my feet again and headed towards me and slowed up.

You can not believe how pleased I was ! Sounds really weird given I had just been bucked off - but all I could think about was that she had come to me, because she clearly trusted me. And the rest of the session she was at extreme pains to keep me where she wanted me - in the saddle !

So Chapsi - keep that 'glow' that came through in your recent posts. Yes you will have ups and downs, but you've made the 'one small step for man' that you wanted. Good luck to you both because you deserve it. :D

[Jo]

Apologies, Chapsi, you are right - I responded to an early comment in the thread, not realising there was more. And how interesting it has been. I am pleased to hear that you are getting along better and I find it encouraging to read of your progress. I agree wholeheartedly with your conviction that horseownership is a partnership, and you seem to be building a strong one. I know as well as most that things go wrong and I cringe at the mistakes I have made with my mare - no wonder it took me three years to bond with her!