The Real Deal

[levi1739]

Here's a long u-tube that I hope some might take the time to download. (8 minutes) It's done by a horseman named Dennis Reis who I really think a lot of. Recently, one of his staff members posted his link

http://www.reisranch.com/

and recommended him as an alternative to Parelli. I personally don't recommend that anybody purchase his stuff due to the cost (I sure can't buy it) but I never miss any opportunity to learn from him. He's the "real deal" in my mind, with a much better understanding of horses than somebody like Monty Roberts. (not to knock Monty) This is a short demo that is obviously edited a bunch. It does give a very brief display of some of the talents a good horseman must have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBwUYny9gzc&feature=related


I'm always surprised by the lack of responses when I post here. I posted this topic in the hopes that some of you might want to discuss the methods that I see in this short film. This is Natural Horsemanship at it's best, with a very fearful and reactive horse as the teacher. Dennis uses the common tools, a stick, a rope and a halter but makes it very clear that it could just as easy be a raincoat etc. It's done in a round pen, but he could be standing in the pasture. There's a lot going on that's easy to miss but the timing of his "RELEASE OF PRESSURE" is excellent and his use of "RETREAT" is the best in the business. (imo) If folks here are interested in exploring this further I will gladly join in. If there is no interest I will just stop posting here but I sure think there is a need on this forum for the methods and teachings of this type of horseman.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Lili & Morgan]

First about the lack of interest :
- There are many clinicians who come to the UK or Europe. Dennis Reis is just another one adding to the list. he may also never come over the pond so ... lack of interest.

- The future is comminucating to the human. I am looking for someboday who will teach ME. Parelli fills the spot with his TUITION DVD ( Not demonstration), and with easily remembered formula.

I watched the 8 minutes clip ...
Sorry I am not convinced. Does he not use flooding for desensitizing that horse?
Should he not have remove the plastic bag = RETREAT before the horse kicks???? Obviously when the horse started to kick, the bag has to stay on the legs.

IMO, I saw more flooding than retreat/desensitizing ....

What do you thing?

[Kate F.]

As far as lack of response goes, I thing Lili&Morgan is right - but another factor is that many NR posters are novice riders, and while happy to talk about their own experiences, are not so confident in going into a broader debate about overall principles and techniques. I think they often read such threads with interest, but are not so keen to take part in the discussion. If you look at any of the "critique" thread - there are always loads of "Ohhhh isn't he lovely/don't you look fabulous" posts (even if it's a donkey falling over a stick and the rider going over its head!:D), some "this is what I do/what my RI told me to do" posts, and relatively few offering objective comments and advice.

So don't stop posting - people will be reading, learning and enjoying - they might just not talk about it! ;)

With the Reis clip - it is heavily edited as you say, so perhaps not fair to be too judgemental - but I do agree with Lili&Morgan that it does err towards flooding. His manner is very quiet which is good - but could this horse have been done better, I think probably yes.

As I say, it's edited - so maybe I'm out of line, but I wonder why he (and most other NH people) have to start with the stick? Even before that - why does it have a saddle on? I'd want to start with just the halter and rope and build the horse's confidence in ME before adding other bits of equipment - saddle, flag, raincoat ... whatever.

I think he looks good in the general Parelli-style - not as aggressive or confrontational as many, which is great - but he doesn't really seem to be "thinking outside the box" and listening to what the horse is saying - he's seems to be just following a formula.

I suppose it comes down to some extent to how you define NH, and to what extent is it defined by the routine/equipment. I have often been told I am not proper NH because I don't use a stick and I go with the horse into the trailer at first, instead of driving it in from outside. If we define NH as using particular tools and following particular sequences in a particular order, then Reis is probably a very good example. If we define NH more broadly, as gaining an understanding of the horse's world and using that knowledge to communicate as effectively and gently as we can, then I think he's missing a few important points! But maybe this second approach isn't NH - perhaps it needs another label! :D

[Montana]

I found a lot to take onboard from this clip (and a couple of things I wasn't so keen on, but I'll explain those later:p). Yes - it's not NH in the sense that seems to be discussed on this board a lot. Yes, he does use a lot more pressure than seems to be neccessary sometimes, and no, he doesn't always back off before the horse feels the need to kick out. So maybe Kate's right, in that it needs a slightly different label.

What I like - He approaches the issue in a matter of fact way. He's already explained that this horse has major fears, and that he will act on these fears. Leaving the horse to live in that state for a long time while patiently, slowly and painstakingly untangling each and every one of those fears could be said to be less fair to that horse, in that situation, than just getting in there and dealing with the issue.

Regarding the kicking at the bag thing. I agree that there are different ways of approaching the issue, I personally wouldn't have worked it that way. But - I saw a large amount of validity to what he was doing. At no point during the approach with that bag did I see the horse offer the 'feel' I would like to reward. Just standing there without moving wouldn't be what I was looking for - I like to see the horse at least acknowledge the bag, and think about it, rather than switch straight into the default 'got to get out of here' which is obviously the regular reaction for this horse. So, although I didn't like the seemingly goal driven, 'must touch the horse' thing, I didn't either find anything about the feel the horse was offering, in that situation, that would have left me happy to remove the pressure and reward the obviously 'tight' feel.

If I had been working that horse, I may have taken the approach much more slowly, waited for an ear flick, or a glance with a softer eye at the bag, then withdrawn the bag. Then gradually reduced the space between the bag and the horse, retreating as appropriate each time, giving breaks in between for mental digestion, and maybe not even progressing to touching the horse for several sessions, but again, which way is kinder? Leaving him in that grey area where he's not quite sure about when the boot will drop, or letting the boot drop early on, and helping him find a way to cope with it?

I see the benefit in what Reis did also. It was nice to see the horse being able to distinguish different intents in him by the end of the clip. Essentially he was presenting the same information, but the horse had switched on enough to realise the difference in intent between essentially the same movements, presented with a different feel.

I watched a friend work a fearful horse in Texas and while we had some heated (but friendly!) debates about the differences between what he did and what I would have done, one thing I did like a lot was the horse's eventual response to the way he presented information - it is what it is. Yes, you could have called it flooding, but the strong leadership he presented that horse was eventually the thing which caused its fear to become curiosity and him to start watching my friens absolutely for direction. By the end of the session, he took him out of the round pen, and led him for the first time straight over a see-saw and through an upended hay ring, the horse showed no fear, just complete trust in the leadership he'd been shown. But he had used by my thinking, a massive amount of pressure on that horse for 10- 15 minutes to get him to that stage. Something I wouldn't neccessarily be happy to do, but certainly very interesting to watch it done, and the effect of doing it.

[wonkeywoody]

MMMMMnnnn! IMO - which is what is being asked for - he doesnt play enough of the friendly game at each small improvement, yes, he releases but with a horse that scared I think lots more nice reward would have been the correct thing to do.
When he is asking the horse to go sideways on a circle the horse is still only moving cos it is scared not because Dennis is asking for the move. I would have liked to have seen the horse yield much more calmy ie listening to Dennis' request not 'running away'.
At the end where he is shaking the flag quickly, ok the horse is managing to remain still, but he is not calm and if you watch is flanks his heart/breathing rate is thro the roof. Again I think he could have done things more in a way to benefit the horse better.

[laura jeanne]

Jack, I hope you do not stop posting on here since I always read your posts.

I don't have all that much experience since I don't own a horse but I like to learn about NH. I recently went to a Parelli clinic given by one of his instructors and when they were introducing something scary/new, in this case a tarp, they first had the horse follow someone dragging it. All the horses eventually walked up close as it was being dragged and reached out to it with their noses and some finally stepped on it. Another exercise they did was to lead the horses up to strange objects and comb the reins to get the horse to touch it with their noses.

In this clip you posted, he had the plastic bag on top of the horse's face and I thought it would have made more sense to use the method above so that the horse kind of volunteered to investige the bag.

He did get the horse somewhat desensitized to the bag but it seemed to me that the horse was still tense at the end. I don't mean to be entirely negative though, I was still impressed with what he did. I see he is having a clinic about 4 hours away from me in May -

[levi1739]

It's not made clear, but this horse is not a green youngster. The owner explains that the horse is used for "bull dogging" and the horse shows 'some problems' when being used. One thing that none of the exhibition clinicians can show is a truely green horse. Obviously someone has handled and led these horses to the exhibitions location. This horse though is dangerous, and he's been made that way by humans that don't understand horses.

With that in mind, I'll add my thoughts to whats been mentioned. (remember, as I tell my son constantly, there is no right or wrong answer):)

What I like - He approaches the issue in a matter of fact way. He's already explained that this horse has major fears, and that he will act on these fears.

Leaving the horse to live in that state for a long time while patiently, slowly and painstakingly untangling each and every one of those fears could be said to be less fair to that horse, in that situation, than just getting in there and dealing with the issue.

I think that is a very important observation. Would this horse be better served by a 'direct approach', or is it better to 'move more slowly'? I believe that too often we take that slow approach in the hope that the horse will not scare the human.

Is being afraid a "natural" state for a horse? As Dennis states, "it's obvious that the horse can overcome it's fears, otherwise it would never stop running". My own belief is that it's unfair to sneak around a horse.

At no point during the approach with that bag did I see the horse offer the 'feel' I would like to reward.

That's for sure. This horse wasn't going to "offer" much of anything like 'try'. (or respect) This is where many of us have trouble. "Recognizing the smallest try" is critical to a horse. With this horse the "try had to be invented" by the handler since the horse wasn't about to offer it. It probably won't be seen by most of us but it must be there or the horse would still be retreating from the handler.

If I had been working that horse, I may have taken the approach much more slowly, waited for an ear flick, or a glance with a softer eye at the bag, then withdrawn the bag.

Is this contradictory to what you wrote above? What I like - He approaches the issue in a matter of fact way Is this contradiction possibly the balance that trainers say we should constantly search for?

At what point on this tape do you see the horse show it's first signs of understanding? At what point do you see the first application of pressure? When is the first release of pressure? When is the first reward?

Sometimes it's easy to miss these events. Miss them with a horse like this and the problems will only grow. I'm always questioning myself, "what did I miss".

but again, which way is kinder? Leaving him in that grey area where he's not quite sure about when the boot will drop, or letting the boot drop early on, and helping him find a way to cope with it?

Who decides? Could it be the horse that makes the decision?

Essentially he was presenting the same information, but the horse had switched on enough to realise the difference in intent between essentially the same movements, presented with a different feel.

Wow! That seems so simple. ;)

Yes that horse is still reactionary at the end of this tape. We never see him really 'let down'. But he's standing still under pressure, high pressure. This is a great improvement from where he began, simply being approached by the bag scared him in the beginning. Would this have been a good time to quit for the day?

The approach that Laura Jean talks about is a favorite of mine and Reis is a master of it. (It's fun to watch these clinicians as they adapt methods they see others use. Trust me when I say that Parelli has learned from Reis and vice versa) He uses it often and certainly could have "desensitized" this horse by following a plastic bag. I don't believe his goal was to desensitize to a bag but rather to help a horse overcome it's lack of respect. (or is it fear?)

It's early in the day here but the thoughts already expressed are excellent for us all to think about. I've tried to raise some questions for folks to ponder. Hopefully we've saved this tape and will refer back to it with more insight. I tried to use Montana's post to gain a sense of direction for us all. It's just not about the stick, or the bag etc. It's about the horse and the human. There's a lot happening in these 8 minutes. Trust me when I say this guy is an excellent horseman.


Have fun, be safe
Jack

[AengusOg]

I'm afraid I don't rate him on what I saw there.

The sad thing for me is that the horse must have been subjected to a lot more over much longer than the eight minutes we saw.

When we first see the horse it is standing, without tack, and looks quite relaxed. The next time we see it the saddle and halter are on and the horse is obviously tense, and has been worked as is evident by its breathing rate.

All the time the handler is explaining to us what he means to do, if you watch the horse you can see that it is extremely aware of every slight moves he makes, and is very close to flight unless the handler has his back to him. As soon as the handler makes the slightest turn toward him, the horse is visibly jumpy.

The reason for this high state of alert becomes apparent as soon as the handler starts his work...........without any prior warning he just turns and walks straight at the horse, and it is immediately fearful of him.

As far as I could see the horse remained fearful of the handler all the way through, and the handler didn't cut the horse any slack at any time.....he just bullied the horse all the way into a fearfull submission and acceptance of the stimuli. The horse had nowhere to go, it could not get away anyway, and would know from past experience that to survive it must submit to whatever fate the handler had in mind for it.

I thought he was doing ok with the bag in his hand, but I would have rewarded the horse by totally taking the pressure off it and stroking its forehead while giving lots of voice praise. He did none of that the whole way through.

I feel he made an error of judgement when, after he'd used the bag in his hand, he stepped back from the horse and then started hounding it sideways around the pen. I would have started where I'd left off, with something the horse was already accustomed to before asking it to accept something new, rather than (again) just walking straight at the horse in a new move.

By then the horse obviously had no trust in him and knew from experience that the handler was likely to spin round and come at him at any time.....the horse just got more pumped up and afraid.

I am convinced that there was no need for the horse to be made to kick out at the flag. The real issues which brought the horse to his attention were not being addressed at all, in fact the horse (already troubled enough to have problems) just had another bad experience added to its already long list, and yet again learned that submission in the face of extreme fear meant survival.

I actually watched the video without the sound twice so that I could watch the work but not be influenced by the dialogue............I couldn't make any sense of it , and even when I turned the sound up I still couldn't understand some of the handler's motives.

In my work I work firstly on developing a bond of trust with the horse (it really doesn't take long, minutes actually), and the first few minutes are spent letting the horse know that he can trust me and I will treat him fairly. Once that bond of trust is established a horse will allow just about anything with a minimum resistance provided he is not overfaced and bullied.

For reasons best known to himself Dennis Reis bullied that horse into submissive acceptance by overfacing him, and not once did he even see a reason to praise him although the horse was screaming out for it.

Anybody could do that.

Nope....don't rate him at all.

[Montana]

MMMMMnnnn! IMO - which is what is being asked for - he doesnt play enough of the friendly game at each small improvement, yes, he releases but with a horse that scared I think lots more nice reward would have been the correct thing to do.


I kind of agree here WW, in that something doesn't quite sit right with me regarding the feedback the horse was getting. However, I saw nothing that horse offered, given that situation, which would have allowed me to give a big release like you suggest.

I think any release has to relate to the mental state of the horse - the inside of the horse; not just to the outside, mechanical movement he offers up. So when asking the horse to move sideways, I don't reward just because the feet move sideways, I reward a soft feel while moving feet sideways.

My issue with this video that with adding that level of pressure to such a troubled horse, you may miss the try. Having said that, there will always be something to reward, some glimmer of a glance in the right direction, but I would have like to have seen more softness coming through. And it would take a lot of perfect timing which takes a risk that the person doing the work has perfec timing to offer:rolleyes:



Is this contradictory to what you wrote above? What I like - He approaches the issue in a matter of fact way Is this contradiction possibly the balance that trainers say we should constantly search for?

I lost your quoting of my post. But yes, it is contradictory:) I say that's what I would do, not what I should neccessarily do:D My aim is to keep the parts of my work that I think are beneficial, at the same time moving towards getting my timing and feel more developed, so that I can be more matter of fact about my approach. I don't want to succumb to what I see a lot around me, paralysis by analysis:D I think sometimes the tendancy with NH is to over analyse EVERYTHING! What I see the people I admire doing is getting themselves into and out of situations with horses with integrity and no fear of being creative in their approach.





Yes that horse is still reactionary at the end of this tape. We never see him really 'let down'. But he's standing still under pressure, high pressure. This is a great improvement from where he began, simply being approached by the bag scared him in the beginning. Would this have been a good time to quit for the day??

Um - possibly:p I'd have loved to have seen how that horse's session the next day started. That's the real telling point of how successful a session has been - training today for tomorrow. If the horse had to start all over again, well then maybe something in him just quit at the end of the first day's session, and not neccessarily for the right reasons. I'd like to hope not.



I don't believe his goal was to desensitize to a bag but rather to help a horse overcome it's lack of respect. (or is it fear?)

Fear. Without a doubt in my mind. I dislike the attitude that because a horse has had the same thing done with him in the past, or he's an experienced horse who 'should' know better, he should just be understanding of what's being asked. I genuinely do not believe the horse capable of such concepts as respect (at least, not in the human sense of the word)


I have no doubt that he's an excellent horseman. I'd be curious to know if he thought he knows all the answers though - my guess would be not:)

[Chilli]

That type of horsemanship is always going to be controversial in the UK, flooding doesn't seem to get the same reception as it does in the states.

I have only watched it without sound but form what i have seen of him in the past it's not a good example of his work, but as you have said in this particular example in the time he had, he has decided on the best was to help the horse, personally i prefer Bryan Neubert.

What i'd like to hear is people from the states letting the rest of us know about the less well known horseman like the Mexican? Brazilian? who puts himslef in danger with any horse he works with as the first thing he does to get the horses trust, gives trust to get trust.

[ameliet1971]

I'm sure Dennis Reis is an excellent horseman and trainer, but in the clip, he appeared to be using the flooding method constantly and never once did I notice him praise or reward the horse.

The clip gave me the impression the horse was bullied into submission rather than being gradually desensitised.

While this method of horsemanship may suit lots of people, I'm afraid it's not one that I was very impressed with.

.

[levi1739]

Lot's of negative thoughts, doesn't appear to be much positive being noticed in this tape. Maybe the UK is ahead of N. America in it's horse training methods? I can only go by what I read or see here. I do know that Roberts and Parelli are the basis of folks like Marks and Maxwell.

Some of you seem to not have observed the tape very closely. The horse starts bareback, and the handler is wearing a different shirt. Most horseman would have noticed that immediatly in my opinion. Good horsmen must be observant, the horse won't miss anything. Again, this is a "you tube" that wasn't filmed by Reis. I just happened on it and thought that folks might see some things happening with the horse. The "cuts" are visibly obvious and certainly have an affect on what we're watching. I agree that it's not really a good representation of what Dennis Reis does in most of his films but he isn't usually working with a horse of this nature either. I don't suspect most of us do.

Here are some more of my own thoughts.

To my way of thinking, it the horse has the means to move away from pressure, it isn't being flooded. It doesn't appear to me that Reis is hanging on to the rope very tightly, nor does the horse "turn to run away". Most of the time there is slack in the lead line. It seems to me that a horse that scared would "take off" and pull the rope from the handlers hands.

I did notice that when he finally got "flagging" near the hind feet, he hung onto the halter. I've never seen him do that before, and I didn't like it. But I suspect he was trying to protect himself from a kick.

Remember that Dennis says that this horse is dangerous and I believe that is obvious by it's actions. Reis was approaching the horse at the saddle when the kicking first appeared. I imagine that surprised him some since the pressure wasn't being directed anywhere near the hind end. The horse was also quite agitated by the bag in it's face, but it didn't appear scared to me. It actually looked like it was thinking of becoming aggressive.

I asked some questions relating to the video. Did I miss the answers to these questions or do folks find them irrelevent to the understanding of what may be happening with this horse. If anybody is trying to learn about pressure and release they need to look for these things as they happen.

At what point on this tape do you see the horse show it's first signs of understanding? At what point do you see the first application of pressure? When is the first release of pressure? When is the first reward?

And here's a question I'll add to the list. "What does a horse perceive as a reward?"

As for the horse being bullied or somehow abused. I can't find any signs of physical stress. The horse is breathing a bit faster than a horse at rest, but it's nostrils are not flaring and I see no signs of sweating. (whats his pulse rate?) There's definately no "lathering" apparent and that's a very good indication of the horses physical output.

I have friends that work at a TB training facility and their goal for every ride is "lather between the hind legs". That's the sign of a good workout in their mind and it's what they use to determine when the horses training is finished for the day. The horse Reis is working with isn't even sweating, despite it's "fear". Seem's to me that this was a pretty easy hour for the horse physcally.

I would enjoy reading of the methods being used in South America but I'll have to wait for others to start that topic. I think you are mistaken if you think they are ahead of the "gentling" game with horses in S. America.

Brian Neubert is an excellent horseman. His experience with Police horses parallels Reis'. They are both known for using helicopter to desensitize a horse. Maybe somebody will have a link to some film of Brian or others to share.



Have fun, be safe
Jack

[Lili & Morgan]

I watched a friend work a fearful horse in Texas and while we had some heated (but friendly!) debates about the differences between what he did and what I would have done, one thing I did like a lot was the horse's eventual response to the way he presented information - it is what it is. Yes, you could have called it flooding, but the strong leadership he presented that horse was eventually the thing which caused its fear to become curiosity and him to start watching my friens absolutely for direction. By the end of the session, he took him out of the round pen, and led him for the first time straight over a see-saw and through an upended hay ring, the horse showed no fear, just complete trust in the leadership he'd been shown. But he had used by my thinking, a massive amount of pressure on that horse for 10- 15 minutes to get him to that stage. Something I wouldn't neccessarily be happy to do, but certainly very interesting to watch it done, and the effect of doing it.


Regarding your experience Montana, a trainer did something very similar to my mare. And she was mesmerised by him.

Length of the effect : ONE WEEK. I was not comfortable to use so much pressure to get the same result. 4 months later with my softer, leadership I manage to get her attention without using so much pressure.

So back to the horse in video :
Then what?
Will the owner/ handler be able to carry on treating the horse in the same manner than Dennis Reis????

Is he actually "changing" the horse? I do not think so. The horse will turn back as he was within weeks if the owner/handler do NOT understand what to do.

That is why it is MORE IMPORTANT to teach PEOPLE than horses. It is where I prefer Parelli , the emphasis is on teaching people NOT horse-training.

[Lili & Morgan]

I would enjoy reading of the methods being used in South America but I'll have to wait for others to start that topic. I think you are mistaken if you think they are ahead of the "gentling" game with horses in S. America.

:D:D:D

I agree with you Jack. I have heard very interesing story from S A from a Brasilien trainer ....
Not something I will report on the net ....

[AengusOg]

[QUOTE=levi1739;1594731]Lot's of negative thoughts, doesn't appear to be much positive being noticed in this tape.

That's because there isn't much positive in the tape.

Maybe the UK is ahead of N. America in it's horse training methods?

That's possible.

Some of you seem to not have observed the tape very closely. The horse starts bareback, and the handler is wearing a different shirt. Most horseman would have noticed that immediatly in my opinion. Good horsmen must be observant, the horse won't miss anything.

I thought we were watching a horsemanship demo........turns out it was a fashion show. :)

I agree that it's not really a good representation of what Dennis Reis does in most of his films but he isn't usually working with a horse of this nature either.

Not a good choice for positive critique then.

I don't suspect most of us do.

Actually, you'd be surprised by some of the problems I have to work with, and most are brought about by ignorance regarding safe, basic handling of horses.

To my way of thinking, it the horse has the means to move away from pressure, it isn't being flooded. It doesn't appear to me that Reis is hanging on to the rope very tightly, nor does the horse "turn to run away". Most of the time there is slack in the lead line. It seems to me that a horse that scared would "take off" and pull the rope from the handlers hands.

The horse is in a round pen and has obviously been in it before.....it knows from experience that it has nowhere to go. If you watch Reis' hands you can see him working the rope all the time.

I did notice that when he finally got "flagging" near the hind feet, he hung onto the halter. I've never seen him do that before, and I didn't like it. But I suspect he was trying to protect himself from a kick.

That was actually forcing the horse to accept the frightening stimulus, and if that's not flooding......

Remember that Dennis says that this horse is dangerous and I believe that is obvious by it's actions. Reis was approaching the horse at the saddle when the kicking first appeared. I imagine that surprised him some since the pressure wasn't being directed anywhere near the hind end. The horse was also quite agitated by the bag in it's face, but it didn't appear scared to me. It actually looked like it was thinking of becoming aggressive.

But he didn't once accept (or perhaps it never crossed his mind) that the horse was also extremely fearful, and that is why it was dangerous. And why do you think it was offering aggression.........do you think it may have been because, as far as the horse was concerned, aggression was the last resort in protecting itself from an overpowering handler?

I asked some questions relating to the video. Did I miss the answers to these questions or do folks find them irrelevent to the understanding of what may be happening with this horse. If anybody is trying to learn about pressure and release they need to look for these things as they happen.

Actually I did see far too much pressure but, unfortunately for the horse, no release from it.

And here's a question I'll add to the list. "What does a horse perceive as a reward?"

Well watching that video it should be obvious what lack of any reward does for a horse. The handler could have rewarded that horse many times, if only he had taken time to watch for the correct moment instead of charging around trying to impress the crowd. If he had just watched for, and seen, a point after he introduced the bag (in his hand) to the horse's neck/shoulder, he could have stepped away from the horse, praised him with voice and hand, and taken the pressure right off him, thus confirming to the horse that it had given the correct response. Instead he chose to turn to the crowd to keep them informed of his perceived progress, with total disregard for the horse until he turned and charged at him again.

As for the horse being bullied or somehow abused. I can't find any signs of physical stress. The horse is breathing a bit faster than a horse at rest, but it's nostrils are not flaring and I see no signs of sweating. (whats his pulse rate?) There's definately no "lathering" apparent and that's a very good indication of the horses physical output.

Actually his nostrils were flaring in the firstclip of him when he was saddled........I'm not sure if that was before or after Dennis changed his shirt.

The horse Reis is working with isn't even sweating, despite it's "fear". Seem's to me that this was a pretty easy hour for the horse physcally.

That particular hour may have been one of the easiest that horse had ever spent.......it is all the other hours around that eight minute clip which concern me.


One other thing I'd like to mention.........when I work with the more troubled of the horses I'm asked to 'fix', I and (usually) their owner observe real change in the horse's eye (from the hard, worried, vacant stare of the troubled horse) to a more engaging eye and a softening of its surrounding muscles, usually a few minutes into the session.

You talk about horsemen having to be observant...........have another look at the clip and tell me that horse's eyes are the calm, soft eyes of a properly treated horse.....or are they still the hard fearful orbs of a misunderstood animal?

[Willywilddog]

Just watched the clip, and some issues are apparent; it is not (at first glance) sending a positive message to the horse, however, as has been pointed out, the clip is just that....a clip. In order to give a fair criticism of the methods used, I think viewing the full session would be fairer.
Also noticed that horse was resting his hind leg when Reis was holding the halter. The horse is also rewarded by a turning off of Reis's energy and a quiet rub with the bag.
Still feel that one needs to see whole session for fair comment

[ameliet1971]

Some of you seem to not have observed the tape very closely. The horse starts bareback, and the handler is wearing a different shirt. Most horseman would have noticed that immediatly in my opinion. Good horsmen must be observant, the horse won't miss anything.
Shouldn't a good horseman be more interested in concentrating on the horse and his body language, than observing what colour shirt the trainer is wearing? I also wonder if there where actually quite a few people that did notice Dennis was wearing a different shirt but didn't find it relevant to mention it?

To my way of thinking, it the horse has the means to move away from pressure, it isn't being flooded.
I disagree Jack, as always understood flooding to be where a horse is exposed to a prolonged exposure of pressure untill he eventually gives up.

Take for example, when a horse has a saddle strapped to his back and is allowed to run around trying to buck it of..the horse can move about freely but the pressure remains with him untill he gives in. As far as I can see, this is no different to what I watched in the clip where Dennis constanly followed the horse around with stick untill he submitted to the pressure.

.

[Chilli]

I don't think anyone could say S.American horsemanship is further along the NH route than N.America, far from it, but that doesn't mean other approaches around the wrold are not ahead of N.America, but then can you comapir a ranch horse to a sport horse easily? or the methods used to produce them?

The guy i was refering to is on the curcuit in the states and what interests me is the different approach rather than the fairly uniform approach used by Denis Reis, now i'm not saying everyone is as good at it as Dennis or that it doesn't work just that it is pretty typical of current NH in N.America and that Denis is pretty well known as opposed to little known guys working in a different way which may have something thats being missed by the masses.

There is release in the clip but it's not where people are expecting it or looking for it, flooding has no release and thats what he is doing so why would you expect release there?, but in true clinician fashion he doesn't stop to talk to the audience at just any old time, it's done at a time when the horse needs/has earned/should get, a release and a chance to think about things, the question is how many other places is there a release hidden right in front of our eyes ? Also what is the horse doing when he gets these releases?

I think the editing has changed what you see going on, important bits which arn't as exciting as him moving the horse with a flag are missing and putting a different slant on what he was actually doing.

Of course i may be wrong and it is just my opinion.:)

[katefarmer]

One other thing I'd like to mention.........when I work with the more troubled of the horses I'm asked to 'fix', I and (usually) their owner observe real change in the horse's eye (from the hard, worried, vacant stare of the troubled horse) to a more engaging eye and a softening of its surrounding muscles, usually a few minutes into the session.



Absolutely with you on this one, AengusOg - it's something I also use as a central frame of reference too. The eyes tell you so much, don't they. However, you need to be pretty close to the horse to see it - not much good for demonstration purposes.

I am increasingly of the opinion that problem horses really shouldn't be used for demo purposes. If you do it well, it won't be much of a show.

I don't think that what I would call "real deal" as Jack puts it, can be shown in a mass audience demo. You can show general points of handling, and typical responses from a non-problem horse, but when it comes to resolving issues such as fear, that really needs to be done "under a microscope" so to speak.

To Lili&Morgan's point about teaching the people - I think you can teach people this much finer approach too - just not in a large audience setting. It's true that Parelli puts a lot of emphasis on educating the people - but my issue with him/them is the quality of the material they are teaching the people!

[Chilli]

I feel that someone just needs to point out that Denis Reis is probably a far better horseman than anyone commenting on here and that he is doing exactly the same as everybody else would, "what he thinks is best/will work for the horse."

You can't say he's wrong only that you think another way might be better for the horse or the person dealing with it and that is one thing you will never know for sure.

Personally i don't know if it's what i would want to do in that situation, there is to much information missing to make a judgment, but the chances are i wouldn't want to do what others commenting on here would do either and could find things i dislike or don't agree with in their methods to, it doesn't mean they are anymore wrong than Denis.

As someone once said you can learn something from everyone, even if it's that you don't like what they are doing.

Shutting up now :)

[levi1739]

Also noticed that horse was resting his hind leg when Reis was holding the halter. The horse is also rewarded by a turning off of Reis's energy and a quiet rub with the bag.

Thanks Willy, I hadn't noticed that hind leg myself. That's the kind of stuff I was hoping people might talk about. As I stated before I'm always looking for something I'm missing whenever I'm with a horse. Darn horses are just so much more aware than us humans.

The release I thought might help some folks understand what's happening occurs at 1:45 on the timer. The reward lasts from then until 2:12 when the horse answers by lowering it's head, licking and chewing. There are a lot of other things that I've noticed and I still feel it's a good demo for those who are "trying" to learn. Watch it over and over and you will discover more and more. As I stated, it's pressure and release as is being used by many different horseman today.

These are the types of things I feel people should be concentrating on if they want to learn about horses. Every good horseman I have ever heard says this same thing when asked, "the horse is my teacher". Another thing that they all agree on is that, "it's the human that we're trying to teach". No wonder horses have so much trouble understanding humans. With some of the attitudes I see here it would be pretty hard to enjoy. I'll look forward to reading/watching examples of others work with horses in the future.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[Chilli]

I probably shouldn't do this as it is possibly a hi jack but the tittle is "The Real Deal" and you did say "I'll look forward to reading/watching examples of others work with horses in the future"

How the **** do you go about teaching a horse to canter backwards?

http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1009/934/

[Lili & Morgan]

here it is :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW0gLYhUR-0&feature=related

Canter, collected canter, canter on the spot, backing at the canter.

Easy peasy!

But I am not sure these guys know how to desensitize a horse ... everybody his own art :)

[Chilli]

here it is :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW0gLYhUR-0&feature=related

Canter, collected canter, canter on the spot, backing at the canter.

Easy peasy!

I think what i mean is how do you get from the clip on youtube where the steps are less precise and the horse seems to think its supposed to go into Levade from time to time to the the more precise work Oliveira is doing (Based on a clip which is looping and thus may be missleading.)

How would you refine and improve the foot fall, cadence, etc etc

But I am not sure these guys know how to desensitize a horse ... everybody his own art :)

Now the answer to that for some of the old masters i do know :)

They would never consider desensitizing, it would be considered abuse to subdue the Noble spirit or dumb down the senses/response of the horse and would be a terrible slur on their horsemanship to have to do this to a horse to be able to ride it, by ride it they mean high level high school.

A bit like not riding a stallion, it's like saying your not very good.

Different time and world way back then.

[Francis Burton]

I think what i mean is how do you get from the clip on youtube where the steps are less precise and the horse seems to think its supposed to go into Levade from time to time to the the more precise work Oliveira is doing (Based on a clip which is looping and thus may be missleading.)
Yeah, the YouTube clip isn't brilliant.

Bartabas, the French horse trainer, can canter backwards from one side of an arena to the other. He did this in one of the Théâtre Zingaro productions and (I think) in the film he directed - Mazeppa - both on DVD.

http://www.zingaro.fr

P.S. Just found this on YouTube... not as far or as well executed as on the DVDs, but it's an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0SsK8-QQj4

[levi1739]

I do wish this was on another thread. It just makes it easier for me to compare when there is only one horse/trainer being talked about. Here are my thoughts on what I saw in the short (18) second tape. It's surely not my thing. ;)

Pretty neat stuff going on though I'm not sure I consider it a canter. Can somebody explain the order of footfall. I did see one stride where it appeared to be a 3 beat gait, but the others were something else. (looked like a fourbeat western pleasure going backward, lol) I noticed that the horse was going forward in a straight line, and then went crooked when asked to do the "backward canter". If the horse had continued on he might have left the arena. ;)

It all actually looked to me like the beginning of the dressage "circle canter" (is that right, I'm no dressage rider). As a western rider it also looked very similar to the beginning steps of what we call a "roll back". One thing for sure, it took a lot of rider/horse skill to attempt. I did note that the horses conformation was important to the horses ability to accomplish this move.

I have no idea how this rider trained this horse. I have watched a German master teaching the "trot in place" (piaffe?) and that was done by using three people. One was mounted and controled the horse with bit pressure, the other two were on the ground, each with a lunge whip. One was using the whip to block the horses front feet from forward movement, the other was using the whip to encourage the horses rear legs to go forward. I suppose this move was just the reverse of those pressures. Let's see, front legs pressure rearward, back legs pressure forward. Hmmm, or is that backward. :)

So how do the masters train this movement. How would you do the same? Thanx for the pics. I enjoyed seeing them.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

[mayoguinness]

Well, I'm not sure that was the best video clip of him. I think the pressure was too high on the horse and there was some force used on the line to keep the horse there and obviously a round pen is a very confined space. He showed how your energy and body launguage said different things to the horse, personally I would of liked to of seen more reward, perhaps a few steps backward from Reis to invite the horse forward as a reward. Can't comment more than that on such a short clip as I'd be filling in the blanks without the whole picture:)

[Harry Hobbes]

He's the "real deal" in my mind…Anybody know who's at Dennis' left in the photo below (taken in Scone, Australia, 1989.)

Just goes to show: hang out with the right people, and you can learn the right things.
I have watched a German master teaching the "trot in place" (piaffe?) and that was done by using three people. One was mounted and controled the horse with bit pressure, the other two were on the ground, each with a lunge whip. One was using the whip to block the horses front feet from forward movement, the other was using the whip to encourage the horses rear legs to go forward. I suppose this move was just the reverse of those pressures. Let's see, front legs pressure rearward, back legs pressure forward. Hmmm, or is that backward. Get hold of the Parelli Savvy Club DVD for January 2007, and you can see Pat and horse doing a Piaffe while entertaining the audience with Linda and the O'Connors.

He and horse are in full western regalia (to include chinks and lariat), and although he's not instructing "how to," you can readily discern how he teaches the Piaffe cue, all from the saddle and without helpers with whips; just him cueing the horse.

Best regards,
Harry

[Kate F.]

I have watched a German master teaching the "trot in place" (piaffe?) and that was done by using three people. One was mounted and controled the horse with bit pressure, the other two were on the ground, each with a lunge whip. One was using the whip to block the horses front feet from forward movement, the other was using the whip to encourage the horses rear legs to go forward. I suppose this move was just the reverse of those pressures. Let's see, front legs pressure rearward, back legs pressure forward. Hmmm, or is that backward. :)

Jack

Piaffe can be done this way - but a lot of classical riders take another (IMHO simpler and kinder) route which is to use backing up as the starting point. Or rather - the horse has to be very collected first - but once you have that - go into back up - then just change the direction while maintaining impulsion. The footfalls in backing are in the diagonals, like trot, so that bit is looked after anyway - then you just have to balance the direction of the movement.

[Lili & Morgan]

Hmm coughing hmmm
Who are the others cow-boys in the photo ? :confused:

Regarding piaffe :
Philippe Karl teaches to teh horse by asking trot to backing transition, soon the horse anticipates the trot transition and while backing the horse will offer some piaffe steps.

Linda Parelli from the ground showed in 1 DVD from Liberty & Horse Behavior course how to teach it with her horse Remmer.
She yo-yo-ed him again forward/backward/forward/backward, then the horse starts piaffe-ing.

The obnoxious way to teach it is with :
- pillars,
- whips ... lots of them,
- electrical rod etc ....
Human twisted imagination is without limit.

[Chilli]

I think i would only call the clip of Nuno Oliveira as catering backwards, its all 4 beat except one stride? of 3 beat, but as the clip is looped it may be missleading.

The other 2 clips while skillful and nice too see but i wouldn't say are cantering the first is a bit all over the place canter stride, bunny hop, canter stride, begining of Levade and the last one the back legs aren't cantering for me, more a bunny hop.

Now it might just be my eyesight, (i wish i could play the clip backwards), but the last 2 clips are cantering forward while moving backwards and Nuno looks like he's cantering backwards backwards if that makes sense, and that is the how the **** do you teach a horse to reverse the foot fall???

Piaffe is normally taught by slowing down passage into a breif piaffe then moving back off into passage, slowly building up the time in piaffe, initially the piaffe will travell forward slowly, this is done just by the rider with no extra help or whips.

[levi1739]

Harry, I don't recognize anyone in the picture except Reis. Could it be yours truely? It sure doesn't appear to be Parelli, though that would be a good guess. If it's PP, he sure looked different when younger. Brian Neubert also came to my mind, but again, I'm guessing. One thing I've noticed, it seems like all the trainers I admire spent time riding with the Dorrances.

I've seen Parelli doing the "trot in place" but never backward. Neither skill is something I will ever aspire too. I would much rather watch a horse doing something they enjoy, like galloping :cool: or chasing a cow.

I don't believe that many posters are aware of just how close these western trainers are to each other. They have all spent time learning from the same teachers, as well as from each other. So many of them "found" Tom Dorrance and grew their knowledge from his foundation. I've often thought that the Dorrance's even presented these "technicians" with their business ideas. Kinda like, "hey Tom, people will pay us to show this stuff".

The same kind of thing is happening today with RFD-TV. I'm aware of a little known (well known to horseman but not the riding public) reining trainer who I believe is responsible for the horse shows on RFD. His e-mail address is something like "watchtv.---

Thanks for the pic and I'll be looking forward to hearing more about the circumstances surrounding it.

Keep on keepin on

Jack

[KateWooten]

Anybody know who's at Dennis' left in the photo below

I think it's Clinton Anderson.

Although, it could be Debbie from New Rider, as the horse looks a little like Cheeky.

[levi1739]

Sheeeeet, I was looking at the wrong left. :) I believe that's a younger Tom Dorrance in the grey sweater. Had to be a real cowboy to wear a hat that ugly.

If that is Clinton standing up, he would have been very young in 89. I also thought that the guy in the red scarf, next to Reis, might be Ray Hunt, but again the ages don't appear right.

Done guessing now, I think i've guessed everybody possible. :rolleyes:

Keep on keepin on,

Jack

[Kate F.]

Sheeeeet, I was looking at the wrong left. :) I believe that's a younger Tom Dorrance in the grey sweater. Had to be a real cowboy to wear a hat that ugly.

If that is Clinton standing up, he would have been very young in 89. I also thought that the guy in the red scarf, next to Reis, might be Ray Hunt, but again the ages don't appear right.

Done guessing now, I think i've guessed everybody possible. :rolleyes:

Keep on keepin on,

Jack


So what were they all doing in Australia? I must agree, my first thought was that it could be Anderson - but only really on the basis of nationality. Is there any reason to think they're not Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, Bruce and Bruce... i.e. just regular clinic participants?

[KateWooten]

No ! Dennis's left, the cheery guy squatting down - big grin. That's gotta be CA - or hmmmm .... ok, '89, he'd only have been a teenager then, and in his early vids he even skinnier and teenagery than hs is now. That guy looks like the present day CA. So, we're looking for an older CA - maybe it's Chris Cox, then.

*(I still think it might be Debbie)

[Harry Hobbes]

Harry, I don't recognize anyone in the picture except Reis. Could it be yours truely? Oh that it were!

From left to right kneeling: Oscar T., Dennis Reis, Pat Parelli, Phil P. Standing on the right: Bob B.; standing left: unknown.

Parelli and Reis both rodeoed (Saddle Bronc) before they got into teaching horsemanship, and I presume that's where they met (as the circuit is a fairly tight community.) In this photo, they were touring(?) Australia together.

(As an aside, many of the second generation natural horsemen from the U.S. - the generation trained by the Dorrance brothers and Ray Hunt - are experienced rodeo competitors: Reis, Parelli, Pate, Cameron, etc.)
So what were they all doing in Australia?They took their clinics on the road to Australia in the late 80's and early 90's. Parelli's first overseas office was in Australia, and his first five-part VCR training tapes were recorded mostly in Australia.

Best regards,

Harry

[levi1739]

Now that I enlarged the photo, the fella in the big hat sure resembles Dennis Reis in appearance. Even knowing that Parelli was a likely guess, it sure doesn't look like him. Hate to say it but Pat hasn't aged well. :p In that picture he looks like this :D. The guy in the vest looks like a past US president named Bill. And dang, the more I look at the lanky youngster standing on the left, well it sure does look like C. Anderson.

Harry, I consider Ray Hunt the second generation after the Dorrances. Ray is in his seventies today and still training. The Dorrances both passed away in their ninetys. I've also heard that the Dorrances were influence by their neighbor Cliff Wade, so maybe that was the first generation. Doesn't matter though, everyone of them was/is a master of understanding a horse.

I've often wondered why we don't hear of these friendships between todays clinicians. The silence seems unnatural to me. Almost like they really don't like each other very much. I've long suspected that Hunt resented the commercialization of the others. Parelli's success in that area could cause some irritation to ego's.

Good post, and thanks for sharing the info. Maybe it will enlighten some folks as to how similar good horseman are.


Keep on keepin on,

Jack

[Crystal Fire]

That is what often stands out to me, as I travel about looking and listening - how similar in approach the really good horsemen are. I think it's a combination of the fact that they have the same roots, and also that good horsemen have a good basic understanding of how horse's tick. So they would approach things in a similar way.
Pat P did a lot of touring in Australia with Phil Rodey, during the time he met Linda and also when he started up "Parelli" and invited his first instructor team on board. I'm sure I wouldn't recognise Phil Rodey in his youth! :D