dutch gags/bubble bits

[Hanchen5]

hi,
My TB is just comming back into work and is feeling very strong. He is normally ridden in a french link snaffle and is not too bad. But in schooling today he was charging about and when jumping, he tucks his head into his chest and bombs up to the jump then charges away after it. Would a dutch gag/bubble bit help? He was ridden in one when i tried him out but i prefer to ride in snaffles. I don't want to change his noseband as he hates even a flash.
Hannnah P

[maverick927]

A dutch gag possible would help as it is for horses who rush at fences with their heads down. you could also try a kimblewick as on the continent if a horse is to strong for a snaffle it is immediately put on to a kimblewick. You should maybe try it

[rocketman]

A Dutch gag (or 3 ring snaffle in the U.S.) IS a snaffle bit. It combines a usually mild mouthpiece with both some leverage action and a slight gag action, to lift the head. I would strongly recommend that you stick to what worked when you tried the horse out. You liked him in that equipment enough to buy him, so I would not make any big changes to his tack.

If the horse over-bends when he gets strong to his fences, then he definitely needs some gag (lifting) action. Bits with curb chains will tend to accentuate overbending and sometimes will make a horse flip his head up and down. I believe it is far kinder, so long as the mouthpiece is a plain jointed snaffle, to utilize other pressures such as leverage and lifting action, rather than moving to a more severe mouthpiece.

I know people like to advertise horses as having a 'snaffle mouth', but it doesn't mean a lot if the horse is too strong in a snaffle. It is better to equip the horse so that it is under proper control than to wrestle with it in too little bit.

It sounds like your horse loves to jump. Don't knock it! That's wonderful! Every prospective buyer of a jumper I have ever met wants a horse that will 'take them' to the fence. There's a difference between 'taking' and 'dragging'. You don't want to quash that enthusiasm, just control it somewhat.

[*~HazelBabe*~]

When my old eventer is both very fresh (coming back into work) and very fit (in full work), I find the best bit for me to jump him in is a dutch gag. He really knows his job and loves it but can also get a bit bossy about things and thinks he always knows best. Now he often does know best but sometimes (like going hell for leather xc and approaching a coffin fence requiring a bouncy collected canter stride) I need to be able to bring him back. The gag gives me this control without having to resort to hauling on his mouth (yik!).

He has a super soft mouth for dressage and is ridden in a big fat snaffle.

Here is a pic of him doing what he loves best!!!

[LesleyR]

Ugh! Bubble bits - I hate 'em! They're terribly fashionable at the moment I know especially for jumping. But every horse I've ever seen in one has instantly gone 'upside down' in their head carriage - not much good for jumping.

We are about to try our v strong New Forest pony in a Pelham for jumping - he has a tendency to bury himself after fences but also just takes the mick with a snaffle when going XC

[ros]

I agree with you, Lesley - don't like 'em. They combine poll action with gag action, which is confusing for the horse. I might be less unhappy about them if people would use two reins as they should with all gag bits, but most either don't understand or can't be bothered, I think.

I use a Pelham myself and am very happy with it, but as far as brakes are concerned I'm afraid I've come to the conclusion that if a horse is going to go, he's going to go whatever he has in his mouth, and the only decent solution in the long run is careful schooling :O)

[*~HazelBabe*~]

I always find it fascinating to read posts from ppl who are of the opinion that every horse should go in a snaffle and if the horse does not, it is the rider's fault or a schooling problem. I agree that in an ideal world it would be lovely to be gadget free (and I try to be as gadget free as possible) but surely sometimes even the most well schooled horses coupled with the best riders in the world are seen in strong bits like gags, pelhams, twisted wire etc (George Morris loves the dbl twist wire bits) - No-one can tell me that horses competing at these levels are not well schooled horses.

I do agree tho that there are a huge number of ppl who will put a strong bit in their horses mouth before investigating other things (like teeth, feeding, horse's back, rider's position etc.) and this is a real shame.

[ros]

I don't think all horses should go in snaffles (as I said, I use a Pelham) but I think most horses should go in simple bits in normal circumstances, and if they don't then I would say that it's most often a rider/schooling/tack problem - that is, something that's brought on the horse rather than something in the horse's head.

There will always be exceptions to the rule, and yes, some horses do get strong through excitement, but I still think you can help that to some extent by schooling - not just in the school but out hunting/cross country as well. Just because a horse does a nice dressage test doesn't mean it's been well-schooled in all situations.

I still say George Morris can keep his twisted wire bits, and the fact that people compete at high levels doesn't, in my view, mean that they're always right or that we should emulate them. When you see what some dressage riders get up to it makes you cringe!

But back to the important stuff - you have a cracking horse there and I'm jealous!

[Wally]

The reason I shy violently away from "bubble" bits is that they do seem to be reputed to curing just about every problem lately. At one time you never saw one, then about 10 tears ago they started to become a fashion, now you see them everywhere. Some horses may like them, but I feel they are over used.

I am the last person to advocate every horse go in a snaffle, for some horses it would be cruel as their mouths are just not right for one. But if you listen to folk they will tell you they will solve any problem.

Heather made my hair stand on end at some of her tales of high school trainers (not all and not a lot) but she has walked out of some very well though of yards at their treatment of the horses. Well schooled they may be....well treated and thought of?

[*~HazelBabe*~]

Gawd I hate the wire bits too (I was really surprised to hear George advocate them) - and yes, I agree with everything you have said Ros. It's not your post that I was referring to but the way that some ppl come onto noticeboards with a holier than thou attitude about certain things (like cetain types of bits and the ppl who use them). I wasn't actually having a go at anyone's posting on here - just making a general observation :)

Yup, B is a cracker of a horse and, at 21 years of age is still beating horses more than half his age! He's one in a million ;) :D He's currently out on loan with a friend who tragically had to have her four year old put to sleep a few weeks ago. They are both having a blast! I do miss him tho and I don't look forward to competing against him this season. Still, I would rather be beaten by my own horse with another rider than another horse :o

[Hanchen5]

well, goodie is lame again so i cant ride him at the moment. But i did get the gag bit and it made a huge improvemment, he responds much better to me now. Hes a 3/4 tb gelding with a big neck, i am 5ft2 and he does on occasion pay very little attention to me. He is very good to school in a snaffle and responds very well and is an excellent dressage horse, i have done lots of schooling in the past, but being a ex-point to point horse he can get very excited especially when ridden in fields or over x country. I am happier having that little bit extra control. In an ideal world i would love to ride him always in his snaffle but it just isn't going to happen. I ride my other mare in a snaffle, she gets a bit excited but is much more stoppable than goodie, she also puts her head up and goes, rather than into her chest like goodie. She is ridden in a running martingale and i have doen quite a bit of schooling, a year later and its slowly producing results, but she does have her moments. Thanx everyone for their opinions and ideas.
Hannah P

[Lucy J]

I've just bought Ciara a flexi mouth rubber pelham. I have not tried it on her yet, but I just can't get her to relax her head at the moment.

she is currently in a full cheek loose ring fulmer snaffle and fihts against it occasionally.

i feel strange moving away from a snaffle, but from reading heather's book the pelham doesn't seem to be as harsh as I thought.

i don't like the gag bits.

[Spydgal]

When I got Rabsha she was in a Dutch Gag and was warned not to try her in anything else. She felt like a bomb waiting to go off in it and it was cutting the sides of her mouth anyways. I took it off and put her in a french link and it was the first time I have felt a horse just immediately r-e-l-a-x big style because of the change of bit. Unfortunately I couldnt continue with the french link and have finally, after lots of reading up and advice from experienced people, ended up with her in a pelham in which she is going really well. We've still got sillyness but no where near like before.

I do agree gags tend to be a real fashion thing at the moment and all the kids I know seem to be using them in order to say `my horse is uncontrollable and so I use a gag'. Its really sad. However at the same time I know people who use them for the right reasons and find them brilliant

[equine_luva]

I have already said so much about haow I think dutch gags are good if your horse is strong enough for them. i have a Quarter hOrase who has a real problem with leaning on the bit. I tried her in so many bits maybe 19. You name it I tried it and I found she went the best on a loosering bubble bit because she can't lean on it. Now I ride her in just a plain loosering snafflefor jumping and flat and she goes great on it.