Laminitus: opinions

[Teehee]

I've been looking up a couple pages... and there seems to be totally different opinions on which is the best way to go about it.

1) Some say put them in a deep bed/ others say not too.
2) Some recommend them to have complete stall rest / others say don't coop them up?
3) Some say to soak their feet in cold water / Some say to put in warm water
4) I saw one place that said that there hooves should be soaked in diesel??? :eek: :confused:
5) One page recommended that blood circulation should be activated... using cold/warm baths could be a good solution or is this not good?
6) Some say that pad that support the frogs do nothing... it just bruises their soles and frog... so I'm confussed about it all!

So, by your own experiences, which have had better results for your horse/pony?

Thanks, :)

[eventerbabe]

Bonnie was always on a deep bed with frog supports. I think the cold water method isn't great, you want blood flow to increase and cold would cause blood vessels to constrict, reducing blood flow. But i guess if in severe pain it may be useful.

My friends mare was turned out 12 hours a day when suffering from laminitis (not lgl, full blown can't walk swinging weight onto hind quarters kind of laminitis). Her vet was of the opinion that the horse needed to keep moving. I, personally, could not have dragged a horse barely able to hobble to the field but she came right eventually.

I'm going to a robert eustace talk next month so anything interesting i'll pass on :)

[MelanieD]

Soaking in diesel = bl**dy stupid!

Most of the rest depends on when its done and some is a matter of opinion.

For example the cold water thing is only meant to work within a few hours, think its even at a stage where there aren't any obvious symptoms yet, so useful if done immediately when pony is found in the feed shed for example. Later on in recovery you want decent circulation to the feet to help them recover.

In a bad attack early on its often better to restrict movement and use bedding and/or frog supports to support the pedal bone. For a milder case you might not need to restrict movement as much. Later on when any active laminitis is under control movement can be a good thing since it encourages the feet to grow and grow the damage out faster. There's also the question of pain relief, if the horse is given pain relief then you do need to restrict movement in case they don't realise for themselves that staying still is a good plan.

[FinkleyAlex]

speaking from my experience last year when my boy got stress lammi, on advice from the vet...

1) Some say put them in a deep bed/ others say not too. - Deep shavings bed, as deep as you can afford to upkeep really!
2) Some recommend them to have complete stall rest / others say don't coop them up? I was recommended complete stall rest
3) Some say to soak their feet in cold water / Some say to put in warm water - A load of BS
4) I saw one place that said that there hooves should be soaked in diesel??? Again a load of BS
5) One page recommended that blood circulation should be activated... using cold/warm baths could be a good solution or is this not good? - Let them repair themselves, I wouldn't try baths etc
6) Some say that pad that support the frogs do nothing... it just bruises their soles and frog... so I'm confussed about it all! - My boy had so much relief from his lillypads, they definitely help with the pain!

[eventerbabe]

3) Some say to soak their feet in cold water / Some say to put in warm water - A load of BS


actually it's not but it is a very old fashioned method. 20-odd years ago it was the done thing. My loan pony when i was a kid had horrendoous laminitis before i got him. The vet had him stood in a stream for a considerable amount of time each day. He recovered, but whether he'd have recovered faster with todays more up to date treatments i don't know.

Cryotherapy (water at about 10 degrees) has a valuable role to play in both recovery and often prevention of laminitis. Cooling the hooves will inhibit the action of an emzyme linked to laminitis onset.

[Portia]

I've cared for one severe laminitic, was stabled together with our old loan pony, plus have a friend with a chronic lammy.

1 - deep bedding for both right across stable, helps to support and cushion the frog.
2 - the first was turned out into a small sectionned-off area, he was an elderly arthritic gent and needed to keep moving. The second, in an acute attack, is stabled plus bute for relief pain, when pain's subsided she goes out in a small pen (short walk).
3 - cold-hosing ineffective and certainly caused distress to the elder gelding, seemed to excacerbate his discomfort.
4 - possibly because diesel may irritate and so increase blood flow to the immediate area.
5 - prob depends how much the pedal bone has rotated and its' position in the foot overall, only xrays would determine accurately. gelding didn't, friends' does ( and they seem to help)

[Teehee]

I have to clear that I translated something wrong... they recommended gasoline and not diesel... Not that I'm sure I'd use either one... :o

[notpoodle]

i went to a lenghty lecture about laminitis at the RVC a little while ago. the vet doing the lecture was talking about all these different methods and theories (eg ACP to make blood thinner, cold hose, warm hose, bute, no bute, frog supports, no frog supports and so on and so on).
she basically said that most of these things (esp the ACP or hosing) don't actually do anything because by the time the laminae are inflamed all the stuff in the body has already happened and it's too late to reverse it by eg cold hosing etc.

the stuff won't do any harm either, but according to her doesn't make a difference either.

she did point out though that it's important to have the bed right up to the stable door and not leave a gap at the front like most of us do, because a boxrested, bored horse will stand on the bare concrete looking out all day!

Julia
x

[White-Blazes]

My mare came down with severe lami last June, first time ever, aged 14.

She was on DEEP shavings, over rubber matting.

She had epson salts in her water, as well as the bute and ACP's prescribed by the vet - firstly 12 tabs morning and night, then reduced to 10 morning and night, then 6 morning and night over the course of a month.

She had ONE SECTION of hay, morning and night.

That was it for nearly 4 months, she was gradually allowed 10 mins at grass, then 30 mins, then night turnout, now she is back out 24/7.

She originally had shoes on, which stayed on for 3 weeks before vet removed them. She's been unshod since, and is waiting the all clear to be re-shod and ridden again.

[tina1958]

When my pony had laminitus I did the following:

Bought her in on a deep (18")shavings bed right up to the door.
Rang the vet who told me to:

Keep her off feed for 24 hours then feed hay only
Give her bute so many times a day can't remember exactly.

Once symptoms had subsided I gradually started feeding her hay un spillars happy hoof. Then she started going out in a very small paddock for a few hours.

Once I'd got her weight down from 450 to 400 kilos she started going out in the main paddock with a grazing muzzle for so many hours this was built up and exercise started again. Over the last winter she has been out during the day un in at night. I am just about to start restricting her grazing again know as our grass has just started growing.

[mogadoga]

At our yard weve always - deep bed, limited turnout if possible but on NO grass. Ie indoor/outdoor school/sand paddock.

Bute for pain, pads on frogs for comfort. Speak to your farrier as well as your vet, they are a world of knowledge on legs/feet especially lami as they get alot of involvment in it!

X

[White-Blazes]

My mare went from 568kg to 432kg, I never realised she's put so much weight on:o

[redcomet]

cold water hosing or, if you are lucky enough, like me, to have a beach nearby a nice soak in salt water but this is only researched to be beneficial in the prevention of laminitus. My vet said that if you really want to kill your pony off, then when it has lami, cold hose the feet as it restricts the blood supply even more!
A deep 12" bed of something non edible like shavings is the best and frog supports - rolled up sock in a nappy would do!
I use nettles, dandelion and asprin to act as anti inflamatories and pain killers rather than bute as this in itself can bring on laminitus, ironically!

[eventerbabe]

Don't know if anyone else has read about this but the vet school at edinburgh are starting research into how mint-like compounds may also be benificial as pain relief for laminitics :) i'll be watching any reported findings with interest.

[Teehee]

Thanks for all the replies!!!

It's got me wondering, everyone seems to agree in the deep bedding and most say that in sawdust or something they can't eat...

I've found that my mare has lost her appetite... she use to eat none stop... that's why she's in the state she is... chub chub!! :o

So, I don't have to worry about her eating her bedding... she hardly eats her hay... she's been cooped up for a month now, and I've noticed that she poops practically bricks... and a small handful... so now I'm afraid she'll end up with a colic... so I've started putting her outside for 1/2 - hour to straighten out her legs... and eat a bit of grass... (there's not much there... just a road with some soft ground and grass on the side... not on a field...)

I know it's a no-no but she won't eat anything... a handful of hay, she sticks her nose up to beet pulp, and she can't have carrots, grain etc... so it's a bit of being in between a sword and a hard rock...

So which is worse laminitus or getting colic?

Have you noticed that they pretty much go off feed? Or is this just my mare being bull-headed???

[redcomet]

deep non eddible bedding ie shavings
cold water hosing can be used in prevention, but can have severe detrimental effects in the cure as it will restrict the blood flow to the laminie even further
my vet told me soaking hay has little benefit and instead to mix with oat straw

[y03mylers]

The people who own PONY at the moment said that when he's starting to ge tlami they bring him in, don't feed him for 24hours and then give him old hay (i.e not the fresh lush stuff)
x

[kturner]

mine has lami regularly. the first time the vet said lots of acp to keep him off his feet so the bones would not rotate and fall through. Bute for the pain, reducing over 10 days as this can harm a ponies liver quicker than a larger horse. 2 sllices hay per day, dengie hi fi lite by the bucket load. He is allowed 5 kgs per day for his weight 300 kgs. He is 11.2. acp keeps them calm on box rest and makes them want to sleep anyway. If he is a gelding, IT, is out all the time because of the relaxing in the acp, dont panic about that, he will still wee and there is nothing wrong down there. Vet didnt tell me that till I phoned in a panic.

The second vet 2 years later with the next bout, said he should be standing and moving to keep the blood flow. He said the acp was old fashioned (in two years???). She said bute as well and used frog supports which the other one didnt as he was lying down all the time. I insisted on acp for blood flow and keeping him occupyed sleeping, which he did naturally anyway as it was sore to stand.

He now has a grazing muzzel for daytime and is in every other night and everyother afternoon or morning, whatever I can manage time wise with all the trips there.

If the hay is too green, soak it to get more nutrients out. It is amazing how little natives/goed doers can live on. They say exmoors or dartmoors cant remember which are bred to live on a leaf a day. joke.

Even the sparse winter grass, very very sparse, gives him blacker/greener droppings. Yellow/brown if he stays in.

Thumbs up for dengie hi fi lite!!!! Ring their help line they dont even mind you crying on the phone!

[Sox01]

When my sisters horse had Laminitis she made sure he had a massive bed, encouraged him to take all the weight off his feet if he was lying down. He had frog supports, which worked wonders and he looked more comfortable with them on.
He was in for months. He was fed hay (even now he is not allowed hayledge, too much sugar etc.). he is only fed foods approved by the laminitis trust and lots of speedi-beet.
I dont think the hosing would work. But if a horse can move it might help the circulation to be moving.

[RobaDob]

My mare is very prone to laminitus, put her on a 1 acre field with just 2 inches of grass, she will come down with lami straight away.

Last may/june time, Honey had severe laminitus for 12 weeks, she was on thick bedding for 2 weeks (laying down constantly) then she stood up for the first time after 2 weeks and was standing okay, we walked her around the fields 3x a day for 5 minutes, increasing each week, we also hosed her legs down in warm water in the morning, cold water at noon and warm water again at night (after walking around the field) she was also on limited food and had lots of water, large amount of hay as it had no sugars in it etc.

This year we are being very strict with what she eats and hopes she doesnt get it again this year.

[Teehee]

I've got another doubt... I've been reading that X-rays are sometimes necessary... but do you all do X-rays always... or is it only done in really cases of really expensive horses???

Can the farrier do his job without them?

[eventerbabe]

x-rays are ALWAYS necessary, how else will the vet and farrier know what's gone on in the feet? it would be like a doctor trying to reset a broken bone without an x-ray. my pony wasn't even worth 2 grand but she had new x-rays after every laminitis attack to monitor and keep track of changes in her feet.

[Teehee]

x-rays are ALWAYS necessary, how else will the vet and farrier know what's gone on in the feet? it would be like a doctor trying to reset a broken bone without an x-ray. my pony wasn't even worth 2 grand but she had new x-rays after every laminitis attack to monitor and keep track of changes in her feet.

And just out of curiousity... How much does X-rays cost? Do they do both feet or all four of them? Do you have to take them to a place or does the vet usually have a carry on...?

[eventerbabe]

first x-rays we had done were at the vets hospital but that's coz she had a hoof resection done at the same time. The rest were done at home using a portable machine :) bonnie was most affected on her fronts, she had them x-rayed about 3-4 times. She did have the hinds done once when she'd laminitis in all 4 feet but i'd guess your vet would just x-ray tthe affected feet. We were about £150-250 per lot of x-rays, £40 of that was callout alone and price does increase if they need sedated like bonnie occasionally did.

[martini55]

I had x-rays done last year, I think a total 6-8 done on the front feet and the total cost came to around £200.

[Teehee]

first x-rays we had done were at the vets hospital but that's coz she had a hoof resection done at the same time. The rest were done at home using a portable machine :) bonnie was most affected on her fronts, she had them x-rayed about 3-4 times. She did have the hinds done once when she'd laminitis in all 4 feet but i'd guess your vet would just x-ray tthe affected feet. We were about £150-250 per lot of x-rays, £40 of that was callout alone and price does increase if they need sedated like bonnie occasionally did.

I think the portable machine... is a good idea, I can just imagine the pain for a horse to go a 2 hour drive in a truck bouncing up and down and all around... on sore feet... :o ouch!

Sedation too!!! Oh... I thought it was easier than that!!!

[eventerbabe]

it is, but they need to keep still and mine acted like she'd ants in her pants as soon as she saw the x-ray machine :rolleyes: only needed very mild sedation, just enough to stop her bouncing about and yanking her foot off the vets little wooden block.

[Teehee]

it is, but they need to keep still and mine acted like she'd ants in her pants as soon as she saw the x-ray machine :rolleyes: only needed very mild sedation, just enough to stop her bouncing about and yanking her foot off the vets little wooden block.

How big is the X-ray machine?... Is it something built into a truck, or is it like a suitcase sized machine... something one can carry?

[eventerbabe]

it's no more than suitcase size :) they put a marker on the hoof (usually just a scalpal blade taped on), position the foot on a block which is also designed to hold the x-ray plate and bingo.

[keds mum]

Thanks for all the replies!!!

It's got me wondering, everyone seems to agree in the deep bedding and most say that in sawdust or something they can't eat...

I've found that my mare has lost her appetite... she use to eat none stop... that's why she's in the state she is... chub chub!! :o

So, I don't have to worry about her eating her bedding... she hardly eats her hay... she's been cooped up for a month now, and I've noticed that she poops practically bricks... and a small handful... so now I'm afraid she'll end up with a colic... so I've started putting her outside for 1/2 - hour to straighten out her legs... and eat a bit of grass... (there's not much there... just a road with some soft ground and grass on the side... not on a field...)

I know it's a no-no but she won't eat anything... a handful of hay, she sticks her nose up to beet pulp, and she can't have carrots, grain etc... so it's a bit of being in between a sword and a hard rock...

So which is worse laminitus or getting colic?

Have you noticed that they pretty much go off feed? Or is this just my mare being bull-headed???

If she is not eating it is because she is miserable and probably still in pain. Being constipated will add to this. Contact your vet and ask for advise.

[keds mum]

[QUOTE=y03mylers;1632877]The people who own PONY at the moment said that when he's starting to ge tlami they bring him in, don't feed him for 24hours and then give him old hay (i.e not the fresh lush stuff)
x[/QUOT

Old hay is good. But you should never starve a laminitic.

[Teehee]

If she is not eating it is because she is miserable and probably still in pain. Being constipated will add to this. Contact your vet and ask for advise.

I started to give her some aspirin once a day... and I was putting her out for an hour... and her appetit is a better... still not 100%. But her feet are still bad... but the vet... said, call the farrier...

[eventerbabe]

so the vets passing the buck to the farrier? can i ask a few questions; what meds is she on now? did you manage to get hold of some frog supports? is she still going out for an hour a day? has your vet suggested any way of moving this forward and trying to kickstart recovery?

i think you turning her out is great, she'll be keeping circulation to the feet going. have you tried anything like magnet therapy? we found our pony got some relief from wearing her magnetic boots 12 hours a day. the hosing is also a good idea. provides pain relief (cold water) and boosts circulation.

[Teehee]

Sorry for taking so long to reply... it's been a really busy week or two?¿ :eek:

Anyways this Saturday the farrier finally came, he put frog supports and backwards horseshoes on... and our first impression is that she must not be as bad as she acted a couple weeks ago... When she saw the farrier... she didn't want to have anything to do with him!!! Pretty much the way she was putting up a stink... I had trouble myself believing that she had sore feet!!! :o

He had to drug her and a couple times she had to get her nose snitched... so she'd stay still... anyways... Now the special horse shoes are on, and... now she's lame on one front foot... she holds it up in the air, I'm assuming the farrier put a nail through something he maybe shouldn't?? Because I'm sure that's not normal... anyways, me thinks she's going to go back on Aspirin to help with the pain... When is this ever going to cure, Carolina???

This is certainly frustrating... :mad: