Spare the rod and spoil the horse?

[ros]

I had a phone call this morning from a chap wanting to know if we did full livery. I said no, and we didn't have any vacancies, but it was obvious that he intended to have a conversation.

He started to tell me about his wife's horse. A nice horse -they were moving to the area but it was such a good natured animal that she didn't want to part with it. Only one problem - sometimes it was fine to hack out, other days it would just decide it wasn't going anywhere.

The chap said his wife has to carry a whip all the time. He asked me if I carry a whip. I said yes, but I don't really use it, I just stuff one down my boot for emergencies. His wife, of course, has to beat her horse to make it go.

He asked what I thought constituted an emergency. I said "a 10-ton lorry careering out of control towards me, and my horse is too scared to move." So he laughed and asked me if I'd EVER hit my horse, and I said maybe once or twice in the 2 years I've had him. He didn't believe me, and insisted on making me tell him when I actually last hit my horse. I said probably about a year ago, He still didn't believe me. He was also very interested in how hard I hit him on that occasion - "what did I call a smack?" "How many times did I hit him?"

I told him that as a general rule I didn't think horses need to be hit, and he asked me if I'd ever ridden anything other than the horse I have now. He seemed surprised when I told him I'd been riding for 40 years. He said it wouldn't hurt my horse to get a smack now and again, and I asked him why on earth he thought I should smack my horse when he doesn't do anything wrong. I told him my horse trusts me and tries to do his best for me, and I don't need or want to hit him. I also told him that people who have to hit their horses don't impress me at all, whereas people who get their horses to want to do things for them WITHOUT force do.

The man's wife's horse is an Arab. They contacted an Arab breeder, he said, and the breeder told them that "that's Arabs". He also mentioned that his father used to cane him when he was a child. Obviously what was good enough for him must be good enough for his horse.

I REALLY wish we had a livery vacancy.

[Sue Carnell]

hmmm. I wonder whether he actually has a wife... or a wife who has a horse?

Sue 'suspicious' Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[KarinUS]

that does seem weird.
I wouldn't be married to such a person. But frankly I also wouldn't have my husband make these calls. If it's her horse, she should be the one calling around to find a place she feels comfortable with. Obviously this husband would have very poor judgement when it comes to horses. I certainly wouldn't let him pick a place for my horse.
So maybe Sue is right. Maybe he just wanted to get a rise out of you- especially since you said he wanted to talk eventhough it was clear, you didn't have anything for him...?

[FRED]

Hi Ros, you just never know these days how genuine folk are,its so difficult to tell.
Personally I think its good to talk although we do seem to live in a extremelly selfish and cynical age.Men seem to get a right bashing on NR.{not levelled at you Ros,just an observation} At work we always ask people we don't know, how did they find us,ie adverts,recommendation etc,and we ask for address and phone no,if we have suspicions we phone them back just to test. Some folk get suspicious of us because we ask these questions..what can I say!

On the subject of whips,my neice has just restarted lessons after two falls last year,on her second lesson last week her instructor gave her a whip.My neice asked me on Sunday what am i supposed to do with it!
For sure I know they can be used for better and not for punishment.She replied how do I keep from dropping it,that I dont know
:)

[ros]

Hmm. It never occurred to me it might be a "funny" phone call! I didn't get that impression but...

Don't worry Fred - not a dig at men. I just felt so sorry for the poor horse, and I spent all day thinking about it and wishing I could get hold of the silly woman and tell her how to be NICE to her horse. How these things do prey on one's mind.

[floppy]

reading that i thought that maybe it was a dodgy phone call. More creepy if you ask me.


some people are strange. The owner of the yard where my horse is had a strange phone call the other day from a person asking very suspicios questions about the horses. As the yard owner advertises alot her 'for-sale' horses in the newspapers. The person asked if there is always people presant at the yard, are the horses out on the fields at night, what the surroundings are like, if the yard owner lives on the premises or if the horses ar ein a a sucluded area. if the horses are trained to walk with a head collar on, easy to catch etc.

One of the liverys husband is the head of police and so the number was given to him and he is trackign it down.

[Wally]

I once had a similar conversation with a chap about driving Shetlands, he seemed to think that the only way to get them to go was to beat the daylights out of them!

Beating an Arab up? all the Arabs I have ever worked with would have been mortified had I taken a stick to them.

Reading your post first I have to say I thought about it being a dodgy call, but I re read it and he may have been genuine, it's so difficult these days.

[FRED]

One of my neice and her good friend recently brought two 4 yr old horse,they spent months getting to know their horse and preparing to move them to their own land,even before buying.
Their time paid off,when horse box arrived to move horse they loaded like a dream{fingers crossed i haven't now cursed them }
But unknown to them... they were going to recieve some extra help that they had not been requested.Four guys at breeders yard with sticks and whips who thought it was hilarious that horses would load without force...the guys were left gobsmacked and they would have been gob smacked had they raised stick or whip too horse.
Had horse not loaded then, the girls would have simply spent more time working on loading,it just proves that time and patience are better than force.

Ros,I think there are many of us who understand what you mean 'can't help thinking about poor horse'.
Having seen tragic loading incident and managing to divert attention of children with me from goings on,they enquired whats wrong with my eyes..hay fever was my reply,i just wish.
I just wish people would give more thought to HOW poorly some converted horse box have been converted and also offer horse better leg protection when traveling long distance.
Im going on again,BUT THE INTERNET AND ODD PHONE CALLS.
I found out the hard way two years ago you just don't know who reads your posts,I deleted all reference to where I ride because of a Mr Cannock!!,his calls to where I ride were not malicous,but did concern owner of horse. I had just started and was very embaressed, it was not the kind of start you want at a ridding centre when you have to build trust.

[virtuallyhorses]

I'm not quite sure what to make of a conversation like that. I find it odd on so many levels. I'm even more suspicious than Sue I'm afraid and wonder how much violence there is between the husband\wife\family...

Anyway, as for the child being presented with a whip at riding school, I'm not sure that I would read too much into that. I was also always given a crop to ride with, I can't think of ever using it other than to sometimes press it on the horse's shoulder or gently tickle behind my leg - just a 'hey, just cos I'm new doesn't mean you can do whatever you like...' sort of gesture, and this was all we were ever asked to do with it.

There was one particularly bolshy schoolmaster (my favourite) who loved to 'intimidate' the intermediate riders - you know, you're just starting to get a wee bit cocky\confident and he'd sort you out ;) like a strict teacher. You'd either press the crop into his shoulder , or let it wave out from the shoulder so that he could see it - and then we'd be sorted. A sort of call-his-bluff move :)

However we did also use the crop for things like checking your hands (using it to bridge the reins and check for unevenness) or to help co-ordination when you had to change sides etc so its not necessarily a sign that the school or instructor has evil intentions.

[mikka]

Personally, I'd think that anyone who engaged me in a conversation of this kind was more than weird and worthy of a hang-up. But, of course, I wasn't there.....

[Wally]

On the subject of walloping horses, do you know one of the things which always bemuses Frances and I? It is when folk turn up to ride with us and they bring a stick with them and automatically want to carry it, now to me this is a strange attitude, maybe 2 of ours will need a schooling whip just to back up the old leg, but it is the idea that they can carry a whip and use it without first finding out whether it is appropriate for the horse they are riding!

I would never turn up at a riding shcool and bring my own stick, they should be supplied by the instructor and then only when appropriate and necessary.

I know some schools insist you bring a stick of your own, but it upsets me to think that fok are not thinking along individual horse lines and just thinking so broadly.

[Mossy]

How about the next owner of the horse when the poor thing is finally sold as " useless"? You are sat on the horse who does not need a stick so why carry one. Somebody is doing a gate or something and asks you to hold their stick for a minute. Yes you say to be helpful and nearly finish up in the next county! Been there done that. I literally dropped the whip as though it was red hot and horse promptly calmed down again. Hubby had to retrieve his stick from the floor! Harry NEVER had a stick anywhere near him for the rest of his life.

[anuvb]

Interesting point Wally!

Each time I get on a new horse I always ask the owner/instructor if I need a crop. I think a lot of people just take it for granted that you need to ride with a crop and ride with one regardless, never allowing time to find out if the horse actually needs one or not, therefore whenever I ask most of the time they look at me as if I am barking mad even to consider riding without one. I also always carry my own with me. Partly because, riding my boy I need to use it every now and again to wake him up, and just carrying it makes him perk up, but also that way I know the crop I am using is in good condition - it seems to me that most of the ones lying about the yards I have been to have tatty and split ends, and if I need to use one I would rather use one gently and properly than risk using a damaged one and causing more problems.

...And yes - I too think the phone call sounds very wierd. I would steer clear of of those sorts of calls in the future. It sounds like he was trying to bait you into saying that you use crops unecessarily and if he or someone else calls in the future, I woud politely pretend you have something else more pressing to attend to.

[Wally]

Now here's my point of view with my DRIVING instructors hat on!!!:D

NEVER drive without one, Apart from the fact that once you have learned to drive properly with one you cannot drive without one, it's like having a bit of you missing, You have to understand that on the box seat your aids are limited to voice, hands and whip, no seat, legs or weight, so you really do need all the help you can get in an emergency.
It's strange that Fat Cob under saddle is the most idle rat bag on Earth, in harness you only need your voice, I have never had to use the whip on him to make him go forward, under saddle if you don't carry a stick he takes the mickey unmercilessly!

[ros]

When I took this phone call I didn't think of it as "funny" in that sense. I just thought it was a great shame that there are still people out there who think that the only way to deal with horses is to use brute force. Part of me wanted to slam the phone down on the guy: the other part wanted to convince him that there really are better ways, and anyone who has to hit their horse to get it off Base needs to examine their whole attitude very carefully.

I don't think I convinced him in the end, but I'd like to believe I made him think a bit. Who knows? It's like Fred said about those guys who thought the idea of loading a horse without force was screamingly funny, or like cowboys who break horses the old way. You're fighting an attitude that's been around for an awful long time, and in people who don't see the need for change. I suppose the only way you can get through to someone like that is by having the opportunity to show them that you can do it better.

[glang1]

Ros - whip sticking out of your boot is an accident waiting to happen - especially for your eye. Keep it in your hand

[chapsi]

After reading this thread I couldn't stop feeling sorry not just for the horse, but also for the wife. How wonder if he also "canes" his wife the way he was caned before? It sounds as the wife takes on her frustration on the horse.
At our yard some of us are always too quick to use their whips/crops on the horses. I am ruled as the source of my own problems with my horse because I don't hit him as they reckon "I should". The idea is that a horse has to do what we want him to, no room for the animal to express himself

[chapsi]

The guys say that I am trying to turn the horse "girly". They even have the stupid habit (it really gets on my my nerves) of slapping horses on their necks, bellies and hindquarters as means of "affection". Raised up like that (in my country horsemanship is a man's culture), no wonder my horse has had so much difficulty to accept a gentle touch - the others say that for the horse my strokes are just "flies".

[ros]

You're absolutely right - I shouldn't carry my stick in my boot. (Mind you, it's a very short one and doesn't stick out above my knee.)

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by chapsi
...They even have the stupid habit (it really gets on my my nerves) of slapping horses on their necks, bellies and hindquarters as means of "affection". ..

I always thought this an 'interesting' sign of affection - you see lots of competitive sportspeople slapping their horses enthusiastically at the end of a competition.

I always wondered what the horse thought of it since horses never 'slap' one another in affection. Horse friends scratch(groom) one another yes, but a slap would be like a kick surely?

Dogs don't seem to mind but they have a much wider physical interaction in the pack. So does the horse have to learn that some 'kick's are bad, others are 'good' and others mean 'do something' - how confusing is that!?

[Hels]

I've also noticed the showjumpers slapping their horses on the neck as a "well done" after a round. The horses don't look bothered but I too wondered about how natural it is. The only thing I have seen horses do that looks really affectionate is mutual grooming or nibbling each other.

[Tumbleweed]

Telephoning round stables and riding schools is usually the way they find out if there is someone on the premises all the time, if not, some horses or equipment, i.e. trailers, can go missing. I have known this to happen.

I always carry a whip when out hacking for my protection, you never know I may get lucky one day. One of my sons saw a flasher when out riding. It can be useful if you stick it out when cars etc are overtaking you, pushes them further away. It can be used to push overgrown bushes or trees to one side as you go past, but make sure it doesn't hit the person behind you in the face. On hot days when the flies are bugging your horse, you can wave it above their head (if they will let you of course), to keep them away.

There are lots of ways to use a whip, I didn't know you are supposed to hit your horse with it :D