Gag and Low Head Carriage...

[NoviceNic]

Will a strong pony in a Gag have a low head carriage?? I just cant for the life of me remember. :o

And does anyone have any links to a decent Bit Website with good advise regarding the action of each bit...please. :)

[5.7FB+16.2FC]

Shop4bits.com is good you can also try before you buy :)
I had my horse in a gag he hated it and was really overbent in it :eek:

[cvb]

Will a strong pony in a Gag have a low head carriage?? I just cant for the life of me remember. :o

And does anyone have any links to a decent Bit Website with good advise regarding the action of each bit...please. :)

A true gag (rather than a dutch gag which is not really a gag :rolleyes:) has the action of raising the head.

[cvb]

you used to be able to find part of A Bit of Magic by Alixe Etherington online

but I don't think it is there any more ?

[trotter26]

I hack out my HW (11" of bone) cob mare in a cheltnam gag with 2 reins. she is generally well mannered but if she decides to ignore me, its head between the knees and CHARGE!! the second rein activates the gag action and reminds her that i'm in charge, by raising her head and allowing me to use my seat to re gain control

[NoviceNic]

Googled the gag and its the Continental 3 ring snaffle :o.... I thought that the poll action would raise the head. But had convinced myself I could be wrong. :o

Why would a pony have a really low head carriage in a Continental 3 ring snaffle...:confused:

http://www.shop4bits.com/item--3-Ring-Continental-snaffle--3-Ring-Continental-snaffle.html

[5.7FB+16.2FC]

maybe trying to avoid poll preasure??? my horse doesnt like too much poll preasure

[cvb]

Googled the gag and its the Continental 3 ring snaffle :o.... I thought that the poll action would raise the head. But had convinced myself I could be wrong. :o

Why would a pony have a really low head carriage in a Continental 3 ring snaffle...:confused:

http://www.shop4bits.com/item--3-Ring-Continental-snaffle--3-Ring-Continental-snaffle.html

Nope - the poll action will *lower* the head

[Iron Maiden]

I thought, in theory, that the bit lifts in the mouth when you use the lower rings & has the effect of raising the head, while the poll pressure tends to lower it, plus you have nutcracker effects if it's jointed, so it's potentially bit a of a confusing bit! :o

Perhaps Captain is more sensitive to the poll pressure than the bit lifting?

The action will change if you have a strap running under the jaw to anchor the bit & stop it lifting - like a curb chain does on a pelham. If you are using something like that I would expect the poll pressure to be the dominant effect of the bit.

You see a lot of horses in these bits being ridden in martingales, so the head lifting effect certainly happens sometimes.

ETA: talking about Dutch gags here

[DavidH]

The dutch gag is a very confusing bit for a horse. Poll action tells horse to lower head, gag action tells horse to raise head. Net result on a lot of horses is that the horse overbends and goes deep to avoid the bit which is probably what you are experiencing.

[Roofio]

When i first got J he was in one of these. He hated it and did anything he could to get away from it, but being the fairly gentle soul he is the best he could muster was to stick his head down low, occasionally bringing it up high when he got really stroppy.

I got rid of it sharpish (it was an inch too small for him too :o)

I don't think i've seen anyone ride in one since WITHOUT a martingale - apparently it looks pretty :rolleyes:

[mikh]

The dutch gag is a very confusing bit for a horse. Poll action tells horse to lower head, gag action tells horse to raise head. Net result on a lot of horses is that the horse overbends and goes deep to avoid the bit which is probably what you are experiencing.

This has happened to me it's like your horse is neither here nor there when it comes to the bit - personally I now hate them.

[CL66]

Mine would either be too low or too high when in the gag. I've recently changed to a pelham and the difference is amazing, he's off his forehand and so much lighter.

[cvb]

The dutch gag is a very confusing bit for a horse. Poll action tells horse to lower head, gag action tells horse to raise head. Net result on a lot of horses is that the horse overbends and goes deep to avoid the bit which is probably what you are experiencing.

David - do you really think there is a true gag action here ? :confused: When I have used one, what happens is that the bubble rotates, rather than there being a clear lifting of the bit.

[Siogfinsceal]

A true gag (rather than a dutch gag which is not really a gag :rolleyes:) has the action of raising the head.

what she said. Thats why the gags are sometimes used XC as they are great for getting the head back up after a drop fence.
the gag will raise the head and help tuck it in. However my mare does manage to overbend in hers when she wants to avoid work so it all depends

[puzzles]

Gags (I thought dutch gags specifically but am doubting this due to the last few posts) are designed to raise the head - like a snaffle.
The pelham family are designed to 'tuck' the horse's head in.

x

[NoviceNic]

No, its a friend that has bought a pony for her daughter. It came with the Continental Snaffle shown above. Yet it has a really low head carriage apparently which doesnt help cause it has moments of sticking its head between its knees and unseating the rider. :eek:

Pony gets very excited jumping and the previous rider was little so Im wondering if the pony was bitted up to give the rider control...:(

[DavidH]

David - do you really think there is a true gag action here ? :confused: When I have used one, what happens is that the bubble rotates, rather than there being a clear lifting of the bit.
It does but only when a significant angle has been reached. By this time the poll pressure is considerable hence the condfusion for the horse.
Position of riders hands relative to the bit has a signifcant effect on the bits action. The higher the riders hands the more gag action that can be applied but not without the poll action comming in to play first.

[Kate F.]

Yet it has a really low head carriage apparently which doesnt help cause it has moments of sticking its head between its knees and unseating the rider. :eek:

Pony gets very excited jumping and the previous rider was little so Im wondering if the pony was bitted up to give the rider control...:(

Could well be. Horse gets anxious/excited and starts dancing around - anticipating he pain its about to get in the mouth. Little rider pulls on a severe bit. Horse can't escape by running, so dives between its knees to get away from it! There's nothing like treating fear with pain for setting up bad habits!

I think I'd go for a mild bit and re-training to give it confidence in the rider and the bit. Probably just a plain, jointed egg-butt snaffle or similar. Trying to correct the head with more pain/severity in another direction will probably make things worse.

[sancho]

Really interested in this one - thanks NN!

My mare tends to be on the forehand slightly. Its soomething we have worked on and improved but not fully.

We have tried lots of bits. Firstly a pelham but this made her lower her head and did not help witH getting her off the forehand. More control when jumping tho.

Now in a dutch gag which was required for XC and SJ, on top ring/snaffle for hacking and flatwork.

ANy ideas as to which bit to try?

[crazyhorse97]

I don't think i've seen anyone ride in one since WITHOUT a martingale - apparently it looks pretty :rolleyes:

What is with that though??? all the little show jumpers just HAVE to have one dahhhrling!!!! :rolleyes: :o

I really dont like gags and all the horses i have ever seen in them either put their noses as high in the air meaning they get a running martingale shoved on (:confused:) or they tuck their nose into their chest....and that was jut one horse!!!!!

xXx

[BlueWicked]

what exactly IS the gag action?

ive done a bit of reading about these bits, and as far as i can tell, yes a gag will raise a horses head. however, i t seems a dutch gag isnt really a gag.. i suppose a dutch gag with a single jointed mouthpeice would be confising for the horse as the poll pressure encourages them to lower the head while the joint makes them lif it - but what about a dutch gag with a differnt mouthpeice..eg frenchlink?

[Iron Maiden]

It will still have the poll pressure encouraging the head down & the mouthpiece will still lift and encourage the head to go up. It's the relative positions of the rein, the bit and the attachment to the cheek piece that have this leverage effect.

[puzzles]

A gag to raise the head ... a martingale to pull it down again ... !
x

[Mossy]

Hi
The best description of a multi ring snaffle I have ever seen was in the late Capt Elwyn Hartley? book on bitting. They are snaffles not gags and therefore raise the head BUT On the lower ring there is rotation which brings in poll pressure to lower the head. Properly they should be used with double reins so you can pick the effect you want but I have only ever seen that with one rider, who was superb anyway. [As for martingales just don't get me going! The standard jumping kit seems to be 3 ring, martingale with elastic breast girth, and flash noseband. WHY.] I am trying to think of a bit that would do what you want. You want to raise the head, therefore snaffle, but have some welly, but be suitable for a little tacker. *thinks*
PS there is a fascinating article on bits and XC in this weeks H&H.

[BlueWicked]

:owell now I am thourghly confused:confused:

is it a gag.. or is it a snaffle.....
arrggghh... my Pony Club book refers to a gag-snaffle. (:o) This lady http://www.trbmorgans.com/images/ZiegleronBits.pdf says not.

Am I right in thinking a snaffle bit is a bit that doesnt have shanks.

Then you get curb bits, like pelham, kimblewick...

I also found this recent thread on here about the dutch gag and a few folk also seem to say it isnt really a true gag bit and it is a common misconception that it raises the head http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137151&highlight=gags

[*OEH*]

My horse can be strong hunting so we tried him in a continental gag which got his head down and let him buck and buck and buck. When I changed to a Cheltenham gag his head came up to a 'normal' position when on a nice gentle contact, when he feels like he's going to buck he only needs a slightly firmer contact to raise the head so he can't buck- excellent bit, but needs to be used with care.