What bit to use for neck reining??

[fee12345678]

I am having a little bit of trouble with my Criollo in that he keeps getting hold of the shank (Think that is the word?? The long part of the bit which the reins attach to) in his mouth and "nodding" his head.

He does this all the time and I wanted a less servere bit to neck rein in as I don't use any contact anyway. I can't have anything with a joint in it so it has to be a straight bar but I don't know much about Western tack.

Please can someone suggest something as it is getting worse and worse.

Thankyou!!!

[chickyd444]

perhaps some kind or roller, stop maximo grabbing hold, im sure you can get straight bars with copper rollers on :p

[Great Auntie]

I am having a little bit of trouble with my Criollo in that he keeps getting hold of the shank (Think that is the word?? The long part of the bit which the reins attach to) in his mouth and "nodding" his head.

He does this all the time and I wanted a less servere bit to neck rein in as I don't use any contact anyway. I can't have anything with a joint in it so it has to be a straight bar but I don't know much about Western tack.

Please can someone suggest something as it is getting worse and worse.

Thankyou!!!
Fee I'm sorry I don't know which bit you should use, but my cousins Criollo is ridden with a Bitless bridle & she is neck reined. When I asked Monique why she used the bits she does, she said it was because she wanted to ensure she had brakes.:D I rode my Cousins horse at Easter & she is very fast but as good as gold, but it was definately harder to stop her from a fast canter, but she was fine in every other way.

[fee12345678]

Thanks guys...think I will wait for this weekend to come and chat with others then and see.

Just looked and there are quite a few with rollers on them so that might be worth a try.

I also thought maybe he is trying to swallow as suggested in another post?? So might look into a bit with the n shape in it for tongue relief?

[marieb]

Hi Fee, I have the same "problem" with Marco. Sometimes he doesn't do it at all, somtimes its so bad he nearly falls over!

It may be nothing to do with the bit. What I do know about bits, (western or english) is the thinner the shank is the more severe it is, so a thicker shank may be better. I remember one of the Goucho's at Moniques's telling me when he was riding Padcousca, (who was full of energy and head shaking) that the bit needed to be thicker in the mouth and he needed circle work, which is what they do when horses don't conform to their instructions.
One of the things I have done with Marco is to put a sheepskin "glove" over the curb chain which again reduces the severe action on the back of his chin. That def helped.
I am also trying other things too. Early days yet, but I noticed yesterday, he is worse when he is excited, like after a canter or on the way home, but holding contact with my hands high up his neck seemed to help, so when he starts I apply some (not a lot) pressure on the reins in an upward motion, which brings his head up into an unusually high position which he finds hard to keep there, so he drops his head and doesn't shake for a while, when he forgets and starts again I just repeat this. We shall try this for a while and see how it goes. For Marco this is a stress (excitement is stress) related habit that will take a while for him to unlearn. Positive reinforcement is always the best way forward. I have to find something that makes him aware that when he does it, something else will happen that is not harsh, does not cause pain or fear, but isn't desirable and that only happens when he shakes his head. (Marco has a history of being put into high pressure situations which is not good for him, and this is his way of releasing the stress chemicals that are created when I get on him) He also needs to learn (and he is) that all we are going to be doing is just happy hacking, as a result his anxiety should come down. (he is rock solid on the ground, when I am not on him there is no sign of it, (Having said that he did do it when I was doing join up with him, but that was only the second day I had him and he hasn't done it since) so its related to the work that he thinks is expected of him.

Horses are also very distractable and this can be a useful tactic when trying to change unwanted behaviour.

The problem with changing one thing is that it can set of a chain of events that change other things too, and sometimes not in the right direction. We are also still in the "spring grass" thing, this often causes temporarily unwanted behaviour that usually settles down again after a few weeks.

Bitless bridles can be very useful for horses with bit issues, and they are not a soft option either, they must be fitted in the right place (musn't obstruct breathing) and have a severe action even when they are. Many western riders in the usa use them. Like all things when used well, they work well.

Don't despair Fee, many horses shake their heads, even steady calm horses will do it sometimes.

[fee12345678]

Wow thanks Maire... I find that he only does it when we are doing slow work and it is almost like a bordom thing or if we are doing lots of fast work and I need him to stand still he does it but not too often. So I think it is more of a habit but I thought with a different Bit it might not be so easy for him to do it and he may stop??

Its not like he is fighting anything as there is no contact to pull against. Guess just still not sued to the style of riding. Will be interesting to see if any of the others do it on Saturday.

[jinglejoys]

I he used to a bit? Maybe he's been ridden in a Bosal or just a halter,sorry I don't know your horses history,just thinking aloud:)

[marieb]

"I find that he only does it when we are doing slow work and it is almost like a bordom thing or if we are doing lots of fast work and I need him to stand still he does it but not too often."

It sounds different to Marco's thing, but I have noticed that Bev's horse Ziggy does it when asked to stand still and there is grass around he could be eating! Doesn't take any horse long to learn something else, especially something that suits him more that you.

The slow work and boredom things is only likely to occurr if you are over doing it, (easy done), but bear in mind these horses are trained to stand for hours without complaint.

Despite what any horse has learnt, when they go to a new owner the learing curve is always switched on, it doesn't take long for us, who are doing things slightly differently to the training they have already learned, to infuence new and different behaviour. By doing so we can cause conflict within them. Almost always it is unintentional and even to the point we are not aware of what we are actually doing or how the horse interprets our instructions.

Horses are like children in many respects, they need firm boundaries, clear and consistent behaviour and instructions with calm and reasoned, loving delivery from their owners/parents etc. When they have that, you will have calm, secure, consistent horses/children who don't develop behavoural problems and respect you. There the similarity ends. They do not, however need "babying" or "molly coddling" and doing so creates many problems, often the intent is out of kindness, but how many us know bloody awful kids and horses who parents/owners haven't got a clue? (Not you fee)

Don't get me wrong I am not saying this is what is happening, there are always several possible explanations for changes in behaviour. Nipping in the bud is always the best way forward, and hopefully without creating other problems.

Saturday is a good opportunity to talk to others especially Monique and get some more feedback.

It has been my experience that changing a bit that the horse has so far gone well in, is not usually the answer to a developing issue, another tactic will be. Its just finding out what that will be.

The answer to any question of this nature is to get to the cause and address that. That means we need to learn what horses need, and why they do the things they do, why they respond the way they do to us and also to become aware of what we do at all times and in that little lot the answer will be.

Sorry, don't mean to dribble on, but this stuff is only obvious when we know it.

[K.T]

Hi Fee
The lady with the Chestnut n Flazen mane has this problem - she found a good bit - she is on the Criollo Club site!:)http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa136/katieclare_photos/IMG_2315.jpg

[Montana]

If your horse is snatching at/chewing the bit shank, I'd think he's fairly unhappy with the severity of the bit. Mine used to do this with our Myler curb, and I'd get bracing and other displeasure signs, at the lightest touch, too. Why don't you just swap him into a snaffle? Mine neck reins just fine in that and is much happier:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/Caththayer/P1000113.jpg

[criollofarm]

Hi every one!

Just noticed you question fee......

When maximo is trying to take the shank in his mouth it is not because he does not like the bit it is just something to do. A lot of my more playfull horses do the same. I know it is a bit tricky when you are riding and you notice one of your reins has disapeared into your horses mouth and he is now in full controll of the directions! hihi.
I have one of my own who has done it for the last 8 years and therefor I tend to ride hime with very short shanks that do not move/rotate from the bar in his mouth. This just makes it more dificult to grap for him. Riding bitless would possibly be an option but only as there is nothing to grap not because I think the bit is to strong.
A bit is only as sevear?!?!?..(hard), sorry I am a foreigner! .....as the hand of ther rider and criollo's ride on hardly any presure any way.
Like marie said......I am not a big fan of changing bits on these specific horses as I know they have been brought up with them and go really well in them. But most go reaaly well bitless aswell.

The chestnut horse with the flaxen main is back in an argentinian bit bye the way as this suited him best.

We will have a look saturday and see what we can do!

look forward to seeing you all!

[BeachRiding]

Does your horse know how to neck rein? You should teach this in a snaffle first. A curb will be very sever and confusing to a horse who doesn't know how to neck-rein in the first place!

[Trio]

hiya fee - just seen this thread- i agree that its nothing to do with the bit- Arch does this all the time whether he's in his snaffle for schooling , peewee for hacking out or even his western bit - even in his headcollar he'll try and grab the rope just below the clip- i changed it to a rope and chain one so he couldnt do it.
It's definitely him being playful as he shakes it like a dog would a toy and looks at you as he knows he's not supposed to do it!
Don't know what to suggest really- its not a major problem with Arch as if i keep him moving forward he can't do it so its only really when we're stood still or leading .

[fee12345678]

Thanks everyone.

Yeh Monique/Trio it is just how you have explained. I am very soft with my hands and when he is having to think (like when we are doing fast work) he doesn't do it. Only when he knows we are going to gallop (excitment I guess) and when we are doing slow work (bored.)

Monique if you could have a look tomorrow that would be great as I think with shorter shanks he won't be able to get it in his mouth to start with.

Fee

[Montana]

If he's definitely not uncomfortable, you could just ask him not to do it, rather than have to change equipment. Otherwise, you'll have him trying to get to the short shank before long, whether he gets it in his mouth or not.

Just say something about it to him everytime he offers the behaviour. If you can do this consistently, you'll break the pattern and explain that's not something you're looking for from him right now. I'd suggest (but this might be difficult in a curb where you can't use a direct rein), just taking the offer and turning it into bringing his head around to the side, then release. It's a brace of sourts, and you need to soften it to the point where it no longer exists.

I just think this is dangerous behaviour. The main reason I took my guy out of his curb was because with the shank in his mouth, which was, as you suggest, when he'd get more excited - or if I took any more than a fractional contact, we'd struggle for brakes and turns. Not good. I want my horse to stay soft and focused all of the time, not thinking about grabbing something with his mouth for whatever reason.