Reluctant to pick up front feet

[Murphs]

My 6 yr old mare that i've had for 6 months now has always been "difficult" about picking up her front feet. I've had the vet check her physically and a couple of months back she had some Bowen treatments. Neither of which showed any soreness. She's also had a new saddle but has done little ridden work as i have been concentrating on working with her in hand.

Anyway, last couple of days she has point blank refused to pick up front feet - i've managed to get front left up and picked out but she will not lift front right (other than a very quick (and i mean very quick) snatch. foot is just rooted to the spot. i've tried tapping her foot, making her move - forwards, backwards, sideways - got her standing square but she just ain't budging.

I don't know what else to do or what else to try - i've never been 100% happy that she's not sore somewhere (she will not walk over trotting poles let alone attempt a jump).

Can anyone offer me some advice please

[Sue Carnell]

Hi Murphs,

If there is nothing wrong with her, perhaps she just hasn't been taught to pick up her feet properly and not had the chance to learn to balance on three legs. How is she about your touching her legs generally? How is she with her hind-legs? How are her general manners and training? Is she shod? How is she with the farrier, for shoeing or trimming? Horses are sometimes less trusting with the handler on the right, as, unless someone pays particular attention to it, most of their handling is often done from the left, which can make them cautious about being handled from the right. It may be something as simple as getting her accustomed to your being on her right side and maybe teaching her to pick up both feet from either side, or something as complicated as going back to square one accustoming her to touch first and then asking for her to lift her foot for only a second or so, or even to think about lifting her foot, before rewarding her. It depends I think on what the actual problem is.

Sorry not to be of much help Murphs. Do you have anyone, an instructor perhaps, who can help you with this?

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[floppy]

we had a 'for sale' pony at the yard in june. He was a lovely chap, 5yrs old good in every way - except giving his feet.
the first day he was at the yard we tried to pick up his feet and he was super glued to the ground and as soon as you tried to pick his feet up he started trembling a bit. After a week or so of me and my trainer together as a team kindly forcing his foot up and giving a treat straight away after wards he slwoly got better.

I mean to get his foot up you had to use both handsand really lean against him

atfer 3weeks of once a day working with him he gave his feet without even asking much. we dont know what wwent wrong with his training in this aspect...he was shod when we came and we could never understand how the old owners managed to pick this horses feet up for shoeing when we couldnt even pick it up for cleaning them out

[ros]

Hi Debbie. Here's my vast experience of Picking Up Feet problems!

We had a very sweet little WelshX mare on the yard a few years ago. She was taken from her mother at 6 months and kept alone until shortly before she came to us at 4 and a half. Just prior to that she was sent to be "professionally broken". The yard that broke her said she was dangerous. Her owner was a nice enough lass but scared to ride her.

She had no social skills, and she didn't understand having her feet picked up at all. I used to turn her out in the mornings and of course foot cleaning was part of the routine. At first she was inclined to kick out, but with patience I could pick up all four feet in the middle of the field without a headcollar. That was just a question of patience and not getting ruffled or annoyed.

However, the only experiences I've had of horses doing what you say yours is doing (picking up and putting down again quickly) have been when the horse has been in pain for some reason, usually either a stone in the other foot, or an abcess. If it's happening in both feet, Lord knows! I'd say get the vet to have a really thorough look.

[Sue Carnell]

Now Ros, why would you need a headcollar to pick out feet? I always find a hoof-pick far more effective. :)

Sue 'bored' Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Murphs]

thks for the replies:

Sue - she's quite happy to let you touch her legs - tap her feet with a hoof pick etc. She is shod but can be very hard work for the farrier (he's due again tuesday:( ). When the vet came he showed me how tolift the foot right up under the belly so she couldn't snatch back and would hold her balance - trouble is she's got wise to that - i'm only small and she's 15.2hh 470kg, i generally need a rest after a feet picking session:D Hind legs she's absolutely fine - feet are held up pretty much on her own. Front legs are just so unpredicatable - it's always an issue but now she isjust point blank refusing.

Floppy - i've tried using both hands and lean against her - all she does is lean back against me so we get nowhere.

Ros - i agree that it probably needs another chat with the vet- teeth are due so i'll discuss with himwhen he comes for that little pleasure. I've spent an hour with her tonight - and got nowhere - i got a couple of little pick ups off the ground at the end which i praised and then called it a day.

Just thinking about what may be different in her routine - in last few days we have been walking out in hand which involves some uneven (stony) terrain - maybe she's a bit sore/bruised sowon't pick up her foot. Would that be a possibility or ami making excuses?

[Kerry's Partner]

Is she the same when someone else tries to pick up her front feet Murphs? Kerry used to be very difficult with her front feet - she could almost swing me back and forth along her sides - a great tug of war at times. By getting someone experienced to help at the time I could see it was just with me and whilst she's no problem at all now - hasn't been for a very long time, I have actually seen her do this to one or two others if she senses they're a bit nervous.

By the way I know for a fact that Sue (bored) Carnell doesn't even need a hoof pick at times!!!!

Last time Sue was up here with us Kerry had a piece of rubber from the school lodged in one foot. If her feet are otherwise clean I usually just pull any bits of rubber out with my fingers. I couldn't budge this one piece but Sue did.

[Murphs]

she won't let myniece doher feet at all. i'llhave a word withmy experienced friend and get her to come and have a go. she has said before now that i can be too soft and Kaz is a bit of a dominant mare so could just be being bloody minded

[Dizzy]

I really don't know if this will help, but its worth trying. There is a reflex point on the horses wither, its not terribly hard to find. If you use your thumb and fore finger at each side of the wither, you can sway a horses weight easily to and from each fore foot, I was amazed when I first learnt learnt about this.

Its not a prod or poke, when you find the spot, just gently let your fingers lie on the wither and move your arm slightly away and towards you. You'll probably find it more easily on a more relaxed horse at first, then work on finding it with your mare.

If you have someone to help, one of you could encourage her to swing the wieght onto the weight bearing leg, while you attempt to pick up the other. If you work on praising the weight change, at least you have a starting point. Unless of course she is sore.

Lesley

[Murphs]

thks Lesley - i'll give it a try. I'll use Ebony as the "guinea pig" - she's a laid back girl then progress to Kaz. I'll report back if it works

[galadriel]

I knew a mare who hadn't ever had much handling and was impossible about her feet. However, she was sweet and willing to learn, so we did eventually manage to get her feet off the ground--and she promptly fell down.

Belle was double-jointed and just could not manage to stand on 3 legs! It was quite impressive to see this big Belgian draft cross just repeatedly go *plump* into the ground. Poor girl. I was only there for a short time, but I recommended before I left that they get ahold of a farrier's stand. If they could get her leg off the ground and get her foot on the stand, that might eventually help her to learn to balance...

Doesn't sound quite like what you're up against, but maybe she's just terribly uncomfortable with having her leg held. You might want to try much the same thing; once you get her leg off the ground (I know, that part is hard!) put it on something sturdy that she can use for balance. She might feel a little more comfortable about her foot being off the ground if it's not wobbling all over the place.

[Kerry's Partner]

You've just reminded me that Kerry used to "fall" to the ground on the knee of the leg I just managed to keep off the ground long enough to do her foot (this was despite very careful warning I was putting the foot down by the way). I have to say that I'm certain that way back then it was all very much a con. It used to terrify me because I thought she couldn't stand up and that she'd really hurt herself. In your case it sounds like the horse really couldn't balance but Kerry could then as she can now.

She's a very clever girl and just wanted me to know that she actually "let" "allowed" "permitted" me to fumble around with her foot "this time" - but was indicating that I should NOT to take the FAVOUR for granted because I still hadn't passed muster and she wanted me to know that I'd better keep improving else I wouldn't get a foot next time!!! Gosh it seems like a lifetime ago and it's only two and a half years ago.

It's just her personality and I couldn't do without it.

[Murphs]

my experienced buddy is coming to assist tomorrow - her comments to me on the phone today (knowing me and the mare) was that she is probably taking the p***. We shall see:D

[galadriel]

Okay, totally off topic now...but earlier this summer one of my students was grooming Duchess and she was reeeeally into it. Duchess was so stoned from the great massage she was getting that she looked like she was asleep.

Then the student goes to pick Duchess' feet; picks up a front hoof, and Duchess falls down! She *was* asleep.

[chapsi]

Well, it sounds I am not the only one with hoof picking problems.
For 3 months I could pick my horse's front feet, no problem whatsoever. Back feet were a problem, a no-go area. After this time, gradually he was trusting me more with his hind feet. But, guess what, suddenly he refused to give me his left front hoof. For weeks I thought this was due to some hoof problem (generally the oposite one). I called the vet (who hasn't been yet as he thinks that I am an over-reacting owner), but in the meantime I carry on as usual.
Other experienced people at the yard reckon that he decided to show me "who's dominant". He tenses his leg and it's really hard to lift it. He then tries to put it down quickly and he does it really anoid with a big stamp. As regards the oposite side's leg, soon as I clean his hoof, he lollops on me and I have to let it go.
I am looking forward the vet's arrival, but I am starting to think that he is just playing up.

[Murphs]

Galadriel - she DEFINITELY wasn't asleep!!!!
Chapsi - i put her in her stable today - semi deep litter shavings bed, she stropped for a while then, hey presto, let me have her front right leg - she still tried to snatch but i was full of energy this morning so could hold it up:D She also tried the, well i'll try and push you off balance by trying to go down - when she realised that i wasn't letting go as the surface was very soft if she wanted to fall to her knees she stopped. Lots of praise, both back legs and front left leg done no problem:o I think she's trying it on - we'll see what tomorrow brings!

[chapsi]

Brilliant.
It sound as you were sucessful.
My horse (it happens always with the same leg), as I picked his hoof, was showing lack of balance, falling on top of me. When he does it, he look so real, that one wonders wheather he is acting or wheather he has some weak spot on his articulations.

[Murphs]

Chapsi - i agree and i think that is what put me off initially with pursuing was , well, there could be something wrong here. Anyway, this evenings hoof picking was an improvement on yesterdays so maybe, just maybe, we are on the up:D

[Kerry's Partner]

Murphs I can remember feeling like that too. I did find 'though that once people reassured me there was nothing "wrong" and that Kerry was "having me on" that it still took a while to progress.

We had some progress then a step backwards every now and then. If this should happen to you and I hope it doesn't then with hindsight I would advise you to interpret what's happening as your horse needing to trust you more rather than as "having you on" because the one interpretation seemed to get me a bit uptight with Kerry whereas the other helped me to proceed with respect for her and accept that they were her feet after all!!!

Good luck.

[Murphs]

yep, i agree with you on that one. We are still only 6 months into our relationship so still finding out things about each other and she is still a baby really at 6 yrs old:)