Outline and biting advice please

[kayleigh26]

I have a tb x. He's a 16'1hh but finely built 8 year old (according to his passport) but can be babyish and green at times.

Ive had him a year almost, when i got him he was extremly unbalanced in canter, rushed and panicked, now hes gettin much better and is improving alot, though still wont canter on the lunge. Any clicking, kissing noises just encourages him to trot faster and if i carry a lunge whip when asking he just trots faster panicking. So my first question is, are there any training techniques im missing or should be doing ? or are there any i can do to teach him what i am asking as im assuming he doesnt understand what is being asked of him.

Secondly he refuses to work on the bit. He is currently in a copper roller and wears a flash. Through not paticularly strong he can be whilst jumping ( though we havnt been jumping as im trying to get his work on the flat balanced and controlled before i jump) but he snatches at the reins and wont work in anthing which remotely resembles an outline. I was wondering if he maybe doesnt like the bit, i have never changed it as that is what he was ridden in when i bought him, any suggestions on bits ? Also with the out line no matter how much implusion or how much i encourage him to use his back end he still wont bring his head how, ive tryed gently vibrating the reins and moving them etc (not sawing or anything) but still he just throws his head up. So again anything training techniques etc anyone advises?
His previous owner has told me she couldnt get him to work on an out line either and i am thinking of doing some walk and trot lunging with side reins to help him build his neck muscles? Any comments or advice is much appreciated

Kayleigh & Hugo

[doris]

I think if you log onto either Neue Schule or Myler, you can ask and they will give you good advice on bitting.

[vivi]

You must, absolutely must, understand that your focus cannot be on getting the head in (outline) but on getting the horse's back UP. All the time you think it is to do with the mouth and/or the bit you are missing the real issue.

Getting the horse's back UP, even minimally, is entirely related to, connected to, dependent upon, how you 'sit' on the horse. 'Sit' is in inverted commas because this is a little misleading and gives the impression you use the horse as a chair. You cannot get the horse to bring his back up (use his muscle tone) unless YOU use your muscle tone in your whole body IN THE CORRECT WAY.

You can get so much info now on the web - Google.....core muscles, rider's muscle tone, rider's balance, Mary Wanless (do look on her website and buy her new book!) that you can educate yourself quite well and have fun.

This is the best advice I can give you and I want to save you frustration and wasting your time going down dead ends because nobody is pointing you in the right direction.

When you start to make inroads into being able to bring the horse's back up, you will see the bit becomes an irrelevance. Good luck and keep us posted.

[vivi]

Hope you got my PM back!

[wundahoss]

In addition to Vivi's good advice, I'll add that you can not get a horse to raise his back & work balanced if his saddle is preventing it or hurting him in some way. As the vast majority of saddles are NOT made for horse comfort and do cause problems, make sure you address this issue. Balance International are one of the few good sources of info on this matter. Hoof imbalances & other physical problems can also cause them to have difficulty using their hind end correctly.

Re the lunging, yes, I agree that he doesn't understand and causing him to panic will likely only make matters worse. I'd be happy with a fast trot for now. Practice doing different speeds in the walk and the trot & get him confident at this first. Then when you get good at that & feel it's time to try the canter again, make sure you have a long enough line - perhaps 22', as it's also physically hard on a horse to canter in circles, and you could also try starting out on a hill, asking for the canter as he's going down it.

[Bay Mare]

Also with the out line no matter how much implusion or how much i encourage him to use his back end he still wont bring his head how, ive tryed gently vibrating the reins and moving them etc (not sawing or anything) but still he just throws his head up. So again anything training techniques etc anyone advises?

I wonder if in trying to get 'impulsion' you're pushing him onto his forehand? What could be happening (and you do see when people work the horse 'forwards') is that the horse flattens, loses the natural rhythm of the stride and falls on the forehand.

We now use the French method (balance before movement) which slows everything right down and helps them to bring their weight back and lighten their front end. I went to the Anja Beran seminar at the weekend and everything was done slowly in walk and trot with small circles, lots of transitions including rein back to walk/trot and loads of lateral work. After just an half an hour lesson you could see a definite improvement in all of the horses.

Don't concentrate on the 'outline', just slow things down and get him working his back end. Rein back, laterals, small circles (with laterals on the circle) and lots of transitions should help you. It's worth a try anyway :)

Bit wise I'd stick to what you're with and see how he goes working more slowly for now. If you're still having issues you could try a metal mullen mouth pelham with double reins and an elastic curb which can be a good remedial bit. You do need good hands for the pelham, though, so be honest with yourself :)

Have a look at 'Luchia' on this page who was put in a pelham: http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/public/gallery1.html


You don't need to 'take a hold' but you do need a steady contact. Any giving and taking of the reins should be done just by uncurling the fingers, there should be no backwards movement of your hands.

Good luck :)

[Bay Mare]

Meant to say ... if he leans on the bit then lift your hands upwards (no backwards movement), this should stop him leaning, then you bring your hands back to normal again.

Which area are you in? It's probably worth getting a good instructor in for a couple of lessons. I'm sure that one of us will be able to recommend someone :)