treeless saddles - a report

[BlueWicked]

not sure if anyone else has posted about this, so sorry if im duplicating,

i read a report in Equi-Ads magazine that the Society Of Master Saddlers and British Equestrian Federation have done a study into treelesssaddles.

they found that a nomal, well fitted treed saddle is better for the horses back, and treeless saddles are of no benefit.

Treeless saddles exert pressure along the spine, and high, localised pressure under the stirrup bars. they also found that differing riders styles has an influence on the pressure exerted under a treeless saddle.

[eventerbabe]

i think this has been posted about before in tack and saddlery. Not sure i'd trust research done by the SMS poo pooing treeless saddles. After all, it's in their interest that people don't convert to treeless!

[martini55]

I read that and didn't think much of it. Simply made me wonder what the treeless saddles they used were. For all I know it's some dodgy saddle off ebay ;)

[BlueWicked]

i think this has been posted about before in tack and saddlery. Not sure i'd trust research done by the SMS poo pooing treeless saddles. After all, it's in their interest that people don't convert to treeless!

think it said they used 4 different types in the tests. Not sure which ones. dont the SMS sell treeless saddles as well? I thought they did, but if not I can see where you're coming from.

[doris]

I've taken this with a pinch of salt as well.
I know that many people have had great problems with trying to get a tree'd saddle fitted properly. So even if you get someone reputable to fit, there can still be problems.
I think there is a great difference between decent models of treeless saddles and some of the really cheap ones for sale.
It makes a real difference how you ride as well . Some people sit really heavy and unbalanced and some don't. And I think this has the same detrimental affect on a horse whatever saddle is used.
I think the best care should be taken whether buying treed or treeless as not all treeless saddles fit all horses, and most are not adviseable for use if the rider relies on the saddle for balance.

[Chilli]

Thats been pretty much common knowlegde for a long time.

The manufacturers are very honest about the limitations as well as benifits, the resellers don't seem to be so free with the limitations part.

[eventerbabe]

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143407

i think the best advice is try it and see. I'm sure not all treeless saddles will suit every horse, but same most definately applies to treed saddles too

[martini55]

I have to say you also have to bear in mind that one horse and one rider (plus a heavier rider) were used in this study. Now, okay I can see where they are coming from- trying to keep as many variables the same as possible so that a direct comparison can be made. But really, for something like this you are going to need different types of horses and riders. Contrary to what some may believe, treeless saddles do not fit all shapes of horses. And, as well as the shape and movment of the horse, the balance/style of the rider has a great influence when riding in a treeless too.

I for one have to agree that there probably is no advantage of having a treeless saddle over a well-fitting treed. But getting the latter can be difficult for some people for various reasons.

[FeatheryFeet]

...

[luv2jump2!!!]

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143407

i think the best advice is try it and see. I'm sure not all treeless saddles will suit every horse, but same most definately applies to treed saddles too



Must say i agree with Eventerbabe here - tried a treeless on my youngster (was fully backed, working on his canter never shown any hint of hating work) saddle on, rider on, he bronced and basically hit the roof when asked to move - he hated it! Rider off, treed saddle back on, happy sedate pony again.. never going back with him for me!
Do however like the treeless principle and my experiance won't stop me trying them on future horses, but they just don't agree with some.

[Jenni]

at the recent riding club day at snec near edinburgh the saddlery woman said she would not put a treeless saddle on her horse for all the tea in china.

She mentioned a independant study that did the same thing and they found that all saddles tested had pressure at the stirrup area but treeless saddles had more pressure over the whole of the back.

[newforest]

not sure if anyone else has posted about this, so sorry if im duplicating,

i read a report in Equi-Ads magazine that the Society Of Master Saddlers and British Equestrian Federation have done a study into treelesssaddles.

they found that a nomal, well fitted treed saddle is better for the horses back, and treeless saddles are of no benefit.

Treeless saddles exert pressure along the spine, and high, localised pressure under the stirrup bars. they also found that differing riders styles has an influence on the pressure exerted under a treeless saddle.


i saw the same article and it actually said there was no real difference treeless and a well fitting treed saddle. they said that a treeless will not make your horse work better, i disagree as it will if the horse has previously had an ill fitting saddle. there are numerous horse who do not have a well fitting saddle.
how many people get it reflocked every six months, how many people own two, one for autumn and winter one for spring and summer.
if my pony was not extra wide a 3 with a big shoulder, we would be in a treed not treeless. but it suits what we do and he is happy, the chiropractor commented that he had no tight muscles and no sign of discomfort, do you ride at all!

[Chip]

It's only half the story. SMS buy/supply and recommend Torsions frequently and believe they are very good for horses.
Pinch of salt - definately

[Bay Mare]

Agree with the pinch of salt!

What they didn't take into account was rider interaction. Pliance testing (on a variety of treed and treeless saddles) a couple of years ago showed that one of the biggest issues (apart from poor saddle fitting) was how the rider sat in the saddle and whether or not they rode with a driving seat.

I love my treeless and would, on Saff, prefer to use the saddle that I have but I'm not and never have been against a correctly fitting treed saddle. That is the issue though, there are far too many poorly fitted treed saddles out there, even ones that have just been fitted!

IMO the SMS needs to put it's own house in order with regards to saddle fitting but also ensuring that the saddles that are made are symmetrical. Asymmetry isn't just something that you find on cheaper saddles bought off ebay unfortunately :(

[newforest]

you should sit differently in a treeless saddle, not many people are aware of this so yes you could cause problems without be aware of it.
yes you need to watch the pressure of the stirrup bars, but again treeless advice and sell different leathers and if you don't use them, then they need to be upside down. a correctly fitted pad, modern type now comes with spinal clearance, my pony doesn't have pressure points.

if you have a correctly fitted treeless or a correctly fitted treed saddle there will not be a lot of difference. the biggest problem is there are no qualified treeless saddle fitters, and treeless are all measured different. there needs to be a set standard and exams the same as master saddlers.

oh and as we know the bhs is absolutely hot on care and welfare, they would have permitted me to ride in a treeless in my exam, so they can't be that bad or ill fitting!;)

[Chilli]

So why do people who have treeless saddles think this information should be taken with a pinch of salt, you can’t change the laws of physics and the manufactures of the treeless saddles I looked at when I was looking at getting a new saddle wouldn’t argue with it.

[old_woman]

it is not just the owners of treeless saddles who think that many things the SMS says should be taken with a very large pinch of salt ...

What sort of mockery of a test do they think they performed? There are so many variables in a test of this nature, which they did little or nothing to minimise, that of course any logical person takes it with a pinch of salt!

I use a treed saddle most of the time (although not a conventionally treed one by most riders' standards); however I have to say that, in my experience, unfortunately, the majority of saddlers and leatherworkers - however beautiful their work - don't know their horse from their elbow, and the majority of the people who advise about saddle fit come into one of two different camps. They either know about saddles and can restuff them very nicely, alter them, tell you about the trees etc, but know little or nothing about horse and rider biomechanics and identifying incorrect muscle development of the back - or they have physio, chiro, type qualifications, are well able to identify the problems resulting from an incorrectly-fitting saddle but know little about the technicalities of the insides of saddles, intrinsic variable between different makes which affects their suitability for different equine types, and cannot even begin to attempt to restuff a saddle.

Methinks the SMS should get their own house in order before criticising the houses of others. It used to be a craft guild; nowadays it seems to be a business association. There is a big difference between the two.

[doris]

So why do people who have treeless saddles think this information should be taken with a pinch of salt, you can’t change the laws of physics and the manufactures of the treeless saddles I looked at when I was looking at getting a new saddle wouldn’t argue with it.

Because I would need to base my thoughts on more than just the one report. There have been tests done on both treed and treeless saddles.

[old_woman]

BTW Chilli, I am intrigued by your statement that 'you can't change the laws of physics'.

I assume that you are aware that NEW laws are being discovered all the time and that strange and unexected twists on the old laws are also being revealed ... I can quote specific examples in the field of crystal physics if you wish, courtesy of my son-in-law!

[Chilli]

BTW Chilli, I am intrigued by your statement that 'you can't change the laws of physics'.

I assume that you are aware that NEW laws are being discovered all the time and that strange and unexected twists on the old laws are also being revealed ... I can quote specific examples in the field of crystal physics if you wish, courtesy of my son-in-law!

Thats a very good point, you can't change the theories of physics unless you can disprove them and put forward another theory.(Although i don't think there is any work underway on the current laws of pressure which will change the way saddles work)

Now i am going to back track slightly:o as i interprited the original post as, treeless saddles offer no benifit over a well fitting tree'd saddle, which it didn't actually say, but this was my response based on my interpritation.

It’s not just the SMS it’s also the BEF, the statement has nothing to do with how inept many of the saddle fitters are or blatant holes in the SMS complaints process.

It says “treeless saddles have no benefit over a well fitting treed saddle”, that is something you won’t find any treeless saddle manufacturer disagreeing with because it’s true, yet people who have them find it hard to believe, do they know more than the manufacturers?

I have yet to find any study from treeless manufacturers, independent pressure tests etc which state any benefit over a well fitting tree’d saddle and I have been looking for years.

Obviously the are benifits of treeless saddles over a poor fitting tree'd saddle, usining 1 saddle on multiple horses, horse which change shape either through change in condition or just growing etc etc

Talking about the benefits and limitations of the treeless saddles is great, at least then you decide if it’s right for your usage as is talking about the same for tree'd saddles.

[newforest]

people now have a choices, they can choose a treed saddle or a treeless.

i did write on anothr post that i think the two saddles are going to cross over at some point. by this i mean that a treed saddle these days can be made on a flexi tree, it can come with moveable knee rolls, fish inserts, cair system, gullet changes etc etc. this i assume is to make the minor adjustments to get the saddle to fit?

the same as a treeless also offer a part treed, treeless also can come with moveable knee and thigh rolls, spinal clearance pads, pommel inserts etc etc.

some treed saddles are only part tree so is it a treed or treeless.

there really is not much difference between the two if they fit well, that is the only thing of importance, and by fitting well i mean no pressure points. the treed had pressure on the tree which is the bearing panel is wrong the riders weight is tipped forwards or back or the saddle lifts off. the treeless distributes the weight over a larger area, the rider sits differently, and yes these saddles can also lift off the back if not fitted correctly or certain makes, i've since sold the saddle that lifted off i think it's a design fault, it's well known good make as well.


that brings me to the other point that expensive saddles are not necessarily better than cheaper. though like anything there is always going to be rubbish around treed or treeless

[BlueWicked]

i saw the same article and it actually said there was no real difference treeless and a well fitting treed saddle. they said that a treeless will not make your horse work better, i disagree as it will if the horse has previously had an ill fitting saddle. there are numerous horse who do not have a well fitting saddle.
how many people get it reflocked every six months, how many people own two, one for autumn and winter one for spring and summer.
if my pony was not extra wide a 3 with a big shoulder, we would be in a treed not treeless. but it suits what we do and he is happy, the chiropractor commented that he had no tight muscles and no sign of discomfort, do you ride at all!

are you sure?

" .... in most cases, would consider the use of a well fitting treed saddle to be more beneficial to the well being of the horse."

can I just point out that I atually have no opinion either way! I just saw the article and thought Id share:rolleyes:

[newforest]

like you i have no real view either way.

both have good and bad points, the sms didn't say that treeless were bad per se but they can really recommend them they'd go out of business. i ride my own chap treeless as he is xw and has big shoulder, he used to buck and was growing so saddle change was almost every months! however i also ride other people's horses in a treed and if that's what they have that's fine.
same as training i train nh but still ride traditional i just adapt, though reins feel bit weird:)

[capalldubh]

I read that article too and I chuckled away to myself for quite some minutes. It was a really interesting use of language to influence opinion :)

They said that in their tests, they found "no advantages" in using any of the treeless they tested - i.e. they were obviously unable to say that there were any disadvantages. They mentioned pressure points in the treeless but never stated whether the same pressure points had been observed (or indeed even measured) in the treed saddles. And as a result of finding no advantage, their recommendation was :

".... in most cases, would consider the use of a well fitting treed saddle to be more beneficial to the well being of the horse." Hmm, "in most cases?".

So on the basis of being able to find "no advantage" to using one of the treeless that they tested, they conclude that a treed is "more beneficial"? If I reached a conclusion like that in a paper I submitted for publication, the reviewers would punt it straight back to me ;)

[Chilli]

there really is not much difference between the two if they fit well, that is the only thing of importance, and by fitting well i mean no pressure points.

All saddles have pressure points, the debate is usually about how large the pressure is, how quickly a saddle reduces the initial pressure after a jump lands etc etc.

At 1.5lbs per sq. inch the scientists state that the pressure will compress the blood capillaries in the horse's skin. Over a period of time pressures over 1.5 lbs. per sq. inch will lead to low grade bruising and eventually white hairs.

Avoiding 1.5 lbs per sq inch is what it all about really.

If you get to look at pressure tests from tree'd and treeless it's very interesting there is a difference in the way and how much they distribute the pressure.

But again as in so many things it's not just about one variable, as you say they are both good and bad and both have uses and limitations.