Is it ever justified to 'kick' a young horse....

[Abserd]

...as in from the ground as opposed to whilst riding, to teach it manners?

I know this may provoke some reaction and i hope it doesn't get closed but i'd like some opinions to back up (or disprove) my gut reactions :rolleyes:

I'll try to be as vague as possible....a 4 year old colt (uncut), already broken to drive AND ride, was 'kicked' whilst being put back into his stable in order to punish it for misbehaving and i was given the impression that this was ok because if in a field other horses would do this to teach it a lesson.

I can't be more specific as this is a public forum but please PM me if you wish.

The incident really upset me at the time, but it's over and dealt with now...however i just need some reassurance that i didn't over react with my naivete and inexperience. I'm a big believer in common sense when it comes to animals, rather than blindly following particular schools of thought and prefer to take elements from natural horsemanship, bhs teaching etc. in order to learn as much as possible and make my own decisions.

Not having much practical experience and almost none when it comes to training, i bow to you lot and hope i don't cause too many ruffled feathers!

ETA: I'm not asking for comments on early breaking/backing because that's not the main reason for my post - i have my own opinions on that and i know from a recent thread how explosive it is here!

Thanks :o

[Mehitabel]

if they kick me (without severely mitigating circumstances), they get kicked back. i do know people who will be horrified by it, but in that kind of situation i believe that you need to react in kind and quickly.

i wouldn't do it in 'cold blood' but as an immediate 'this is what happens if you do that - that behaviour is not acceptable'.

[Yann]

'kicked' whilst being put back into his stable in order to punish it for misbehaving

What was the misbehaviour? What is being kicked going to teach the horse about what it did 'wrong' and about humans in general?

I wouldn't personally kick a horse but I can understand it being used in extreme situations as self defence. Only thing with a colt is it might decide to up the ante rather than back off.

[Abserd]

if they kick me (without severely mitigating circumstances), they get kicked back. i do know people who will be horrified by it, but in that kind of situation i believe that you need to react in kind and quickly.

i wouldn't do it in 'cold blood' but as an immediate 'this is what happens if you do that - that behaviour is not acceptable'.

Hmm, i do see that and i also understand how an immediate reaction can be necessary in certain circumstances.

Thanks Mehitabel :)

[*Sez*]

I agree with Mehitabel - anything like that should be instant. I agree that I prefer to show that behaviour was not acceptable by treating horses as horses would treat them; in a herd situation, the wronged horse would kick back, bite at the neck or, in some cases, prevent another from entering the herd environment (in our case, we ignore them). I only deal out anything like this if I have been injured or put in a position where through the actions of my horse, I could be injured or killed (such as kicking). At the end of the day, I have to value my life and my health first, and often self-defense is instinctual.

You don't say what the colt did to deserve being kicked, but if it was "punishment" for an earlier misbehaviour, then I think that's a no-no. Removed from the immediate situation, they forget their action and associate the punishment with the current situation, i.e. entering the stable.

[Abserd]

What was the misbehaviour? What is being kicked going to teach the horse about what it did 'wrong' and about humans in general?

I wouldn't personally kick a horse but I can understand it being used in extreme situations as self defence. Only thing with a colt is it might decide to up the ante rather than back off.

Personally i agree with you Yann. Will PM you.

[shandy84]

I am with Mehitabel, thankfully have rarely had to do it, but do take exception if my farrier does it

[Abserd]

I agree with Mehitabel - anything like that should be instant. I agree that I prefer to show that behaviour was not acceptable by treating horses as horses would treat them; in a herd situation, the wronged horse would kick back, bite at the neck or, in some cases, prevent another from entering the herd environment (in our case, we ignore them). I only deal out anything like this if I have been injured or put in a position where through the actions of my horse, I could be injured or killed (such as kicking). At the end of the day, I have to value my life and my health first, and often self-defense is instinctual.

You don't say what the colt did to deserve being kicked, but if it was "punishment" for an earlier misbehaviour, then I think that's a no-no. Removed from the immediate situation, they forget their action and associate the punishment with the current situation, i.e. entering the stable.

I'm pretty sure the 'kick' was in response to the colt's earlier behaviour whilst being ridden and then it's reluctance to enter his stable. However it was done right in front of me and tbh it was the human who seemed more upset and annoyed than the colt, who just looked a bit bewildered.

Will PM to explain more.

[Skib]

Ihave seen one of the USA trainers do it - at a demo, Leslie desmond, I think.
I myself would be scared to do it, but she did it as a professional to a horse that was scaring its owner and in a special clinic situation.

[Abserd]

Thanks everyone, i do actually feel better. My partner, who's had dogs since a kid, also says that immediate punishment, as with immediate reward, is necessary, practical and important. So any animal, particularly horses with the capacity, ultimately to seriously harm a human, must be taught boundaries. I just felt that in the circumstances i saw, no clear boundaries had been dealt, just anger.

Thanks for your honest and adult opinions on this, it all helps me learn and hopefully i won't overeact next time!

[DavidH]

Any physical reprimand has to be immediate and therefore connectable to the initial action by the horse. If done at any time later than the instant the unacceptable behaviour occured the horse could not make the link which in my mind makes it abuse.

[colettybetty]

Any physical reprimand has to be immediate and therefore connectable to the initial action by the horse. If done at any time later than the instant the unacceptable behaviour occured the horse could not make the link which in my mind makes it abuse.

Absolutely agree.

[Abserd]

Thanks David, appreciate that. This is what i thought too, i just don't trust myself or knowledge enough :)

ETA: thanks also coletty betty!

[*Sez*]

Any physical reprimand has to be immediate and therefore connectable to the initial action by the horse. If done at any time later than the instant the unacceptable behaviour occured the horse could not make the link which in my mind makes it abuse.

Just what I was trying to say, except DavidH has said it in a much clearer way! :D

[Abserd]

heehee, you both helped though :D x

[jaydevon]

if it was done after the cause, or out of fustration its wrong, hows the horse ment to know what its being punishished for??

if your going to hit/kick punish it has to be immidiate. horse kicks you kick. horse bucks you smack... its instant.

horses acossiate (sp) many things. noises, smells people. a kick in the guts whilst walking to his stable will teach him not to want to go near the area as he will remember it as a bad place.

ive seen people beat horses minutes after the horses action .... because they were fustrated. thats so wrong.

[Abserd]

exactly and that's why i was so confused! the colt didn't appear to be saying 'i don't wanna go in there' it was more that he was jumpy, most likely reacting to the human's annoyance and anger and was therefore pulling away from him. I dunno, you start to question your own eyes eventually :rolleyes:!

[Laura83]

I read something really good about setting boundaries and they used the electric fence as an example. Horse touches the fence, fence goes zap - I am here, I am not to be crossed. It doesn't do it out of anger, it does it because it just does, it's a clear boundary. I wouldn't ever use any physical punishment out of anger, but would try to use it to state a boundary if required - here is where the boundary is, you cross it then this is what happens - but it needs to be immediate so the correct conditioning forms and without emotion. Apparently that is what the herd would do. But by physical punishment I would include a light pinch on the neck and a poke in the ribs or bottom if a horse is being bad mannered and invading my personal space.

If they did anything out of anger or annoyance then I think it was wrong.

[oinkmoooink]

As everyones said, if i have to kick my horses, its an immediate reaction, if i cant do it immediatly i dont because how are they meant to connect it? If one pony nicks another ponies patch of grass, they dont wait for five minutes before kicking them.
And also i tihnk it should be one sharp professional kick, rather than a load of slaps which arent doing anything.
I dont think it is right to be doing it more than a few seconds after the incident because the poor horse doesnt have a clue why its happening! And if a horse genunly doesnt understand what you want from it, you should kick it either.
Also kicking a horse on its way into a stable when it doesnt want to go isnt gonna make it want to go in anymore! Certain situations, other ways are more effective

[puzzles]

Any physical reprimand has to be immediate and therefore connectable to the initial action by the horse. If done at any time later than the instant the unacceptable behaviour occured the horse could not make the link which in my mind makes it abuse.

My indignant words exactly!

I don't believe in violence as a method of training horses for many reasons. Horses are physically muhc stronger than people and will always win a fight; you cannot guarentee that a horse will back downa dn submit to your negative, physical response to his behaviour and this could lead to a dangerous situation: especially when handling an unpredictable, uneducated, energetic and hormonal colt! Also, it is extremely difficult to time the 'punihsment' correctly, and horses learn best (as shown in tests) via positive reinfrocement methods. Horses do not understand punishment as it is not in their nature to associate physical punishment with the behaviour. Kicking, in this incidence, is an immediate reaction to the handler's feelings which s/he ought to have been in control of, as a good leader would. Therefore the result of both of these points would be a confused, frighrened horse who is likely to develop a habit of defensive behaviour (i..e. the kicking) who cannot trust someone whe knows at any moment will hurt him.
If I am honest, I perceive people who resort to violence (however seemingly minor) as choosing a weak route as, most likely, it would not solve the problem and is only targeting the symptoms rather than nipping a potential problem in the bud before it esculates. They are not putting in the time and energy required to actually train the horse, but going for the 'easy route'.
I personally would focus not so much on preparing to bully this horse into submission - which no horse deserves - but instead on finding the root cause for the horse's kicking (which was a defensive reaction to a stressor) and doing everything in my power to prevent the horse from feeling the insecure need to do it again.

For example, if you had had a rare arguement with a friend, would you then resolve to look for moments when they so much as hint at repeating the same thing so that you can 'punish' them and 'win'? Or would you tink to yourslef "right, what caused that and what can i do to make sure neither of us ever feels the need to rpeat that incident again?" Which of these would be the best action in working for a good relationship?

x

[Skippys Mum]

I'm with Mehitabel. Bianco ONCE kicked me - I immediately kicked her back and chased her away from me. Result, one little pony who wouldnt dream of lifting a leg to a person any more.

The operative word here though is "immediately". If I'd stopped to decide whether or not to do it I wouldnt have done it. It had to be there and then. In a herd situation she would have been instantly kicked back and chased off. I wasnt the least bit angry though - just let her know where we both stood:)

ps my wellies dont hurt nearly as much as her shoes!!:)

[Fanshawe]

Having dealt with many horses who have suffered at the hands of humans it is VERY IMPORTANT that if physical reprimand happens then it is an instantaneous reaction to a horse showing physical aggression to the human and for no other reason. Doesn't matter if it's being naughty or misbehaving as there are better ways of handling that.

If it is a horse that has been abused then it should be avoided if at all possible (sometimes a instantaneous reaction cannot be avoided as my brother who once scared me found out!) but the situation in which a horse would do this should be avoided if you know they have problems.

If you teach a horse that kicking is an ok reaction to misbehaving then they will use it on you when you or other humans 'misbehave'. Horses need clear and fair boundaries but delivered with thought and care. Unfortunately too many people think that it is ok to be physically aggressive with a horse because they are annoyed, angry, had a bad day or the poor horse hasn't understood what they have asked for/demanded. Unfortunately these poor horses then have to be emotionally and psychologically repaired for them to be safe again.

[go max!]

I agree with a lot of the comments on here, and I would not use violence to teach a horse good manners. I also worry about the concept of doing something (ie kicking the horse) because that's what the other horses in a herd would do.

People are not horses. Your horse knows you are not part of his herd, he knows you are a predator (the simple fact that you have both eyes in the front of your head tells him that) and your relationship with him is very different to his realtionship with other horses, in his herd or not. It seems naive to me to think he will interpret your actions the same way as those of another horse.

Having said that, I agree totally with the need for correction to be immediate and clear, and free from anger.

[jinglejoys]

Not sure why and when this horse was kicked.
If it was kicked when being put into the stable because it did something wrong when being ridden this would be wrong,if it was kicked because it was already reacting to the riders body language after doing something wrong then this is surely also wrong.
There is a differance between an action done out of anger and the pony running into a "block"

[jaydevon]

Having dealt with many horses who have suffered at the hands of humans it is VERY IMPORTANT that if physical reprimand happens then it is an instantaneous reaction to a horse showing physical aggression to the human and for no other reason. Doesn't matter if it's being naughty or misbehaving as there are better ways of handling that.

If it is a horse that has been abused then it should be avoided if at all possible (sometimes a instantaneous reaction cannot be avoided as my brother who once scared me found out!) but the situation in which a horse would do this should be avoided if you know they have problems.

If you teach a horse that kicking is an ok reaction to misbehaving then they will use it on you when you or other humans 'misbehave'. Horses need clear and fair boundaries but delivered with thought and care. Unfortunately too many people think that it is ok to be physically aggressive with a horse because they are annoyed, angry, had a bad day or the poor horse hasn't understood what they have asked for/demanded. Unfortunately these poor horses then have to be emotionally and psychologically repaired for them to be safe again.

how true are your words.... having 2 that have suffered at the hands of humans, one deals with it by being very nervous the other by being nasty. both a harsh reminder of how dam good horses are screwed up.

although my horses get the odd telling off, i have a good bond with them, but in my mares case its taken months and many many hours of work.

[Snow_Pony]

I've kicked out at my coblet when she squashed me against a fence so hard she winded me - I dont think she even knew I was there and jumped back when she felt the kick.


xxx

[Pink's lady]

In an emergency, yes. But, unlike smacking, I don't think it's a natural, instant reaction like smacking. To kick a horse from the ground you need to stepback, re-adjust your balance and take aim, which takes time, loosing the vital 'instantaneous' response. For that reason kicking is much more 'premeditated' than a smack.

if they kick me (without severely mitigating circumstances), they get kicked back. i do know people who will be horrified by it, but in that kind of situation i believe that you need to react in kind and quickly.

I absolutly agree that behaviour like that warrents a smack back (unless it's fear kicking) but I don't think kicking, in that situation, can be quick enough. Where as you can swipe out with your arm within an instant, you would take a couple of seconds to arrange kicking them, unless you happen to be in a suitable position. I have kicked legs when they were kicking out at me, but often I've found that just the act of stepping back so you can aim a kick has lost the moment - an instant smack is much better timed.

In the OP's exmaple though, hell no, it doesn't sound like it's at all acceptable. It sounds like it was kicked for a behaviour it showed whilst being ridden/driven i.e much earlier. How the hell is it meant to associate being kicked now with something it did 20mins ago? If it's barged over the leader to get to a bucket in it's stable, then yes, a smack/kick would be appropriate (plus chasing it back) but it doesn't sounds like that was the case.

Horses do not understand punishment as it is not in their nature to associate physical punishment with the behaviour.

Have you never seen horses in the field together?! They certainly do understand physical punishment! A lower ranking horse trying to steal a higher ranking horses feed will result in not just an agressive bite but often a double barrel in the face! BUT that has to be accompanied with warningm subtle build up and clear and obvious cause, else it's just 'unfair'. Unfair physical punishment just leads to frightened or resentful horses.

[Francis Burton]

Pretty much agree with everything that has been said here, especially the need for any punishment to be instantaneous. It's worse than useless if delivered more than a second or two after the event; and it is so unfair on the horse, who won't associate the punishment with the earlier behaviour that the person intended to punish.

If I have to punish, I prefer not to make it a personal issue - so it won't be taken personally. If the horse sees it as an act of aggression he/she might retaliate, escalating the conflict. I don't buy into the idea of making the horse think I am dominant. As go-max! said, people are not horses (though I do think they can come to see us as something other than predators). Ideally I would be like an electric fence of just the right strength - get it over and done with quickly, and then carry on as if nothing had happened - no anger and no held grudges.

To my mind, a skilled horseman should (almost) never have to kick a horse like that. A skilled horseman would avoid getting kicked in the first place. Frankly, routine kicking and shouting are signs of incompetence and failure in my opinion. So I am really surprised to hear Leslie Desmond did it at a clinic. :eek:

[LILHORSELOVER]

If a horse bites me i bite it bak.if a horse kiked me im positive i wouldnt kik it bak...i mite slap it hard ...but not kik it...it also depends on which type of boots u wear cuz metal toes could really hurt a horse depending on where u kik it.

[Skyhuntress]

like pretty much everyone else here, if my safety was involved (ie if the horse was crowding too close and not backing off), then yes, i'd kick. and I'd kick at whatever i could reach.

as a punshiment though, i don't know effective it would be. not because the horse wouldn't feel it, but because, like PL said, I'd have to readjust myself first, aim, and then kick. if a horse kicked out at me, hed likely get a smack instead and quite a few swear words ;) to me, kicking out (human) signifies a lot of anger, and its easier to regulate how harsh the punishment is with a smack instead of a kick

really, there shouldn't be many instances when someone feels the need to kick a horse.

[JOJOBA]

Im in agreement with the general consensus. My horse bit me once when I was grooming him and he got a ringing slap. He filed that one away under 'not to try again'. Never had to smack him again.
Once a horse was nuzzling me and got hold of my little finger and broke it (and wouldnt let go). I can assure you that the thump in the throat he got then was entirely instinctive and he let go in surprise and was more careful afterwards!
Instantaneous is fine, later on is just taking out your anger on the horse.

xxx

[puzzles]

Have you never seen horses in the field together?! They certainly do understand physical punishment! A lower ranking horse trying to steal a higher ranking horses feed will result in not just an agressive bite but often a double barrel in the face! BUT that has to be accompanied with warningm subtle build up and clear and obvious cause, else it's just 'unfair'. Unfair physical punishment just leads to frightened or resentful horses.

It's not the same thing. Horses do not premeditate their actions. In the herd, they don't go away and come back after a good think intending to 'teach that horse a lesson to get such and such a result'. This is a very human thing to do!
Would you ever git your partner or child without expecting negative consequences? Do people honestly believe that an angry, emotionally-driven kick from someone will 'teach' this horse that kicking is bad and he must never do it again? Or does ti reinfroce that he needs to kick as he most definitely has good reason to do so now, more so than before.
I believe in correction rather than punishment. Punishment does not give a horse the chance to produce positive behaviour from it, only making him fearful, defensive and introverted.
Also, horses who have kicked 'out of the blue' can be likened to an employee who has previously obeyed bullying commands from their boss then suddenly lash out ...

As Kelly Marks said: "So for instance, if someone invited you round to their house for drinks, and you said ‘No, thanks’, and they established that it wasn’t because you were frightened, they would be perfectly justified in labelling you an ‘awkward cow’, screaming and shouting abuse at you, and perhaps hitting you as well? Can you see there may be a better way for them to achieve the results they would like?"


It is very damaging for the relationship to think that a horse and a human are on opposite sides and one has to 'win' and force the other into submissiveness and dominate them, in order to produce results.

To my mind, a skilled horseman should (almost) never have to kick a horse like that. A skilled horseman would avoid getting kicked in the first place. Frankly, routine kicking and shouting are signs of incompetence and failure in my opinion. So I am really surprised to hear Leslie Desmond did it at a clinic. :eek:

Likewise.

x

[doris]

I don't really think I could ever be conviced that a horse would understand the same treatment from a human being as it would understand if the same treatment were metered out to him in the herd by another horse. Humans are not horses so no, I don't think it could be justified and I don't think it will really help the situation long term.

However, if I had to defend myself against a horse for any reason, then I don't think I'd want to be close enough to get a kick at the horse! If I've ever had to go into a field full of horses that I didn't know (as on a welfare case), then I would always take a long lead rope with me so that I could at least twirl it round and send any horses away from me (if I hadn't managed to leg it over the nearest fence or gate that is).

[Bay Mare]

I don't really think I could ever be conviced that a horse would understand the same treatment from a human being as it would understand if the same treatment were metered out to him in the herd by another horse. Humans are not horses so no, I don't think it could be justified and I don't think it will really help the situation long term.

I've been trying to think how to say that! I agree, a human isn't a horse, horses don't see humans as horses so a kick from a human (even taking the timing out of the equation) wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing as a threat or a kick from another horse. Many kicks that you see in a herd situation (on unshod horses especially) don't even make contact.

Similarly I'm not convinced by the theory that the human has to act like another horse in order to gain respect. We just don't have the same cues/body language as horses so how can they relate to us as they would to another horse? It's all quite fascinating :)

[puzzles]

I've been trying to think how to say that! I agree, a human isn't a horse, horses don't see humans as horses so a kick from a human (even taking the timing out of the equation) wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing as a threat or a kick from another horse. Many kicks that you see in a herd situation (on unshod horses especially) don't even make contact.

Similarly I'm not convinced by the theory that the human has to act like another horse in order to gain respect. We just don't have the same cues/body language as horses so how can they relate to us as they would to another horse? It's all quite fascinating :)

My thoughts too! :D Really intriguing (sp?) stuff!

If another animal, say, 'glared' at us would we take it to mena the same as if a human were doing it? Then again, we know about and have extensively researched horse and animal behaviour, whereas horses haven't ... x

[Wally]

Any physical reprimand has to be immediate and therefore connectable to the initial action by the horse. If done at any time later than the instant the unacceptable behaviour occured the horse could not make the link which in my mind makes it abuse.

For this very reason this is why I would tend to kick a rude baby back as it's immediate, One generally has a stout pair of boots on so you don't hurt your foot, and it's a form he will understand because his mother, at some stage, will have kicked him for being a brat. It's not up for discussion,

But having said that I would need to be 110% certain the kick was out of rudeness and a desire to get one up on me. If it was fear or surprise I would not retailate.

[Wally]

I've been trying to think how to say that! I agree, a human isn't a horse, horses don't see humans as horses so a kick from a human (even taking the timing out of the equation) wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing as a threat or a kick from another horse. Many kicks that you see in a herd situation (on unshod horses especially) don't even make contact.

If I am being mugged in the field and I want to make some space around me, If I mimick a mardy mare getting ready to lamp out, I can scatter the herd! They are not that daft!:D :D and since I be no.1 mardy mare they respect that........doesn't stop them all crowding round again once they realise I was just threatening, but they will back off when told to.

[doris]

I supose you could always ask the questions:-

Would the other horses in the herd be quicker to anticipate and read the body language of a horse that was going to behave badly? If that's right, then another horse would be able to react much more quickly with a kick or a nip in retaliation.

I really don't think that humans can read a horse's body language and be able to react as quickly to a situation as another horse would.

[Wally]

If I get a kick I can land one back beofre their foot has got back to the ground! But only if it was done to challenge my gaffership!

[oinkmoooink]

As people have aid, we are not horses, so we dont need to act like them. but i think it is quite different to the same situation with people. We reason with wachother through speach (mostly)
Horses do through body language, or get their point across anyways, while i dont go hugely in for natural horsemanship and getting my horses to follow me around and back up by raising my hand and everything...a kick tends to be universal language for a horse for dont do that. And its literally the same as they do, while a slap - horses dont slap. So (theoretically) they may not understand what you mean by a slap, a lot of people 'pat' a horse to say well done- which is pretty similar to slap.

What i have found as a good alternative to kicking , if the horses are invading my space in the yard or whatever, is, as i tihnk wally said, i copy the movements they do then they warn others off. So i sorta turn my back and point my 'hindquarters' at them, cant explain it very well...and if they do realise i have no intention of actually kicking them, i stick a leg out.

[Francis Burton]

If I am being mugged in the field and I want to make some space around me, If I mimick a mardy mare getting ready to lamp out, I can scatter the herd! They are not that daft!:D :D and since I be no.1 mardy mare they respect that........doesn't stop them all crowding round again once they realise I was just threatening, but they will back off when told to.
An engineer could rig up an umbrella to open in a flappy way if it detected the presence of bodies round it. If horses crowded it, it would open and scatter the herd. Would the horses consider an umbrella to be an alpha mare? If not, how can you be sure that the horses view you as one? After all, in this case you are simply reacting to their crowding you and they are reacting to you making yourself look big. After this happens a few times, the horses will learn not to crowd you (or the umbrella). The respect they have for you (or me) is the same as they would have for the umbrella. At least, to me that interpretation seems the simplest and most plausible.

[Francis Burton]

If I get a kick I can land one back beofre their foot has got back to the ground! But only if it was done to challenge my gaffership!
I must say you have extraordinary reactions - far better than most people who work with horses, I suspect. The normal response to being kicked out of the blue is stunned amazement and a flood of pain. Once the person has recovered enough from that to even think about responding, several seconds will have elapsed - making it far too late to deliver an effective and fair punisher.

Of course, it's different if it's not out of the blue and you can see the kick coming. But if one knows it is coming that much in advance of it happening, one can usually take steps to avoid it.

Even when it is possible to deliver a swift physical reprimand, it doesn't always work! I remember a mare was being led by someone else into a yard in which a car (an old banger) was parked. I was following behind. For some reason which I can't recall, she lifted a hind leg and kicked out towards me. I happened to have a whip on me and within 1 sec I gave her a pretty hefty thwack on her hindquarter as a "reprimand". She kicked out again harder, and I hit her harder. Her third kick dented a side panel on the car. Ok, time to cut losses - maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all! The incident taught me a lesson about escalation. Unless you are sure that your first response will nip the offending behaviour in the bud, and if the price of failure is high (e.g. personal injury), then it is probably wiser to deal with the behaviour in another way!

[AengusOg]

A skilled horseman would avoid getting kicked in the first place.

I'm a skilled horseman............I work with horses, good and bad, every day and I got kicked in the teeth, so that doesn't wash with me I'm afraid.

And no, I didn't kick the horse back, I made sure I was safe from another kick and carried on, for the sake of the horse.

And for the record, it was a very serious kick........I've lots of dental work ahead of me.

I don't agree with violence, of any kind, against horses and I'd always have something to say about it.

[Wally]

Sounds like I go around regularly having kicking matches with horses :D :D

Never seen a mardy mare do anything akin to a flapping umberella. That would be a flight fright response to an inanimate object doing scary things, no way communication. In this situation I don't make myself big, it's more subtle than that (couldn't make myself look much bigger ;))

A skilled horseman would avoid getting kicked in the first place

Well, I can count the number of times I have been kicked on one hand and some of those were pain responses and/or fear. And I have no wish to emulate Mr. Og mind, you live and work with nags, sooner or later you are going to get kicked or trodden on.

[antonia :)]

I agree with Mehitabel - anything like that should be instant. I agree that I prefer to show that behaviour was not acceptable by treating horses as horses would treat them; in a herd situation, the wronged horse would kick back, bite at the neck or, in some cases, prevent another from entering the herd environment (in our case, we ignore them). I only deal out anything like this if I have been injured or put in a position where through the actions of my horse, I could be injured or killed (such as kicking). At the end of the day, I have to value my life and my health first, and often self-defense is instinctual.

You don't say what the colt did to deserve being kicked, but if it was "punishment" for an earlier misbehaviour, then I think that's a no-no. Removed from the immediate situation, they forget their action and associate the punishment with the current situation, i.e. entering the stable.

Completely agree with that. I would as soon as the horse had done is a imediate telling off say if the horse bit it tap it on the nose as a "thats naughty- don't do it" reaction instead of leaving it and telling it off later, because imo thats negativity on maybe a positive sitaution if you see what i mean :p:rolleyes:

[puzzles]

If you respond (i.e.with correction) too late in any situation the horse will not associate the reaction with that specific behaviour. When a person uses violence, it leads to an even more frightening, confusing situation.

x

[Sexy Sietske]

I kicked my wlesh D yesterday that insisted running towards me sideways with a threatening leg in objection to being asked to stand still :rolleyes: A small thump from my foot was simply to warn her she was going wrong the way about having a strop and if she so wanted to have a mardy that she kindly went in the other direction away from me :cool:

I dont like hitting a horse but to be honest...if the daft mare is going to run at me she has to expect to run into a strategically placed foot or elbow at some point...I never go at her, she always comes to me which i think is fair play, purposely running upto the horse and giving it a whack....is not.

[Francis Burton]

Well, I can count the number of times I have been kicked on one hand and some of those were pain responses and/or fear. And I have no wish to emulate Mr. Og mind, you live and work with nags, sooner or later you are going to get kicked or trodden on.
How many times have you been kicked on one hand? Sorry, that's just how I read it the first time! :D

Seriously, I agree anyone who works with horses are going to get hurt one way or another at some point. In 30 years or so, I've been kicked three times by adult horses - all on the leg, hurt like stink, but fortunately nothing broken. One time was because I was inattentive and doing something the horse found threatening. Another time I was fluffing out straw in a box behind a mare who was going loopy because she knew there was a foal in the adjacent box - she was just wound up. A third time, I was putting a tail bandage on a mare before covering - was told she was a kicker so I stood to one side but she still managed to cow-kick me. I've been kicked a few times while playing with foals, but those didn't really hurt. A horse that was too full of beans ran up to me in an indoor manege, spun round and double-barrelled me in the chest - I felt the hooves make contact with my wax jacket. A few inches closer and I could have been killed. None of these kicks were really "rudeness", apart from one.

What I meant when I said "A skilled horseman would avoid getting kicked in the first place" was that he or she would avoid the vast majority of the kicks that occurred (as well as not provoking any unnecessarily) - not that they could avoid them completely. I realize that is an impossible ideal!

[Francis Burton]

Never seen a mardy mare do anything akin to a flapping umberella. That would be a flight fright response to an inanimate object doing scary things, no way communication. In this situation I don't make myself big, it's more subtle than that (couldn't make myself look much bigger ;))
Whether it's subtle or not, whatever you do is threatening enough to get the horses to back off or scatter. The question is whether you need to be seen as alpha mare in order for this to work. I personally think you do not, and that horses can learn to respond in appropriate ways to signals no matter who or where they come from, as long as they are meaningful. Our own human signals often start out being rather conspicuous and direct, but quickly become refined and minimal as the horse learns. Obviously the horse can see our very subtle movements and changes in tension right from the start; they accrue meaning over time.

An even smarter engineer could rig up a remote-controlled dummy that was able to move like a human (perhaps lacking a little finesse!). You can see the horses through the dummy's "eyes" and control its movements by moving your own limbs. Remotely you are able to get the horses to back away and "respect" the dummy's space in exactly the same way as if you were there yourself. Do the horses have to think the dummy is an alpha mare for this to work? I think it is barely conceivable that they might, but it would call into question their discrimination abilities if they really were "taken in" by a dummy moving like a human.

Another thought: If horses really did think you were a mare, wouldn't that cause problems when working with stallions? When I am working with a stallion, I really don't want him to consider me as either a mare or another stallion!

[Francis Burton]

I dont like hitting a horse but to be honest...if the daft mare is going to run at me she has to expect to run into a strategically placed foot or elbow at some point...I never go at her, she always comes to me which i think is fair play, purposely running upto the horse and giving it a whack....is not.
In my opinion, this makes a crucial difference to what the horse thinks. Like you, I much prefer to correct a behaviour by having the horse punish itself by running into a foot or elbow. That's much more like the electric fence analogy that I mentioned earlier. You needn't appear angry or annoyed by the behaviour - even if you remain completely calm, the end result will still be that the horse learns that its action has a negative consequence. Going at a horse in retaliation is liable to raise the emotional tone of the situation. I think we've all had experience of what that's like, and appreciate the damage that can be done in terms of bad feeling and lost trust.

[AengusOg]

Further to my last post............I took that kick directly in the teeth and, as a result, was unable to respond to the kick as the impact was enough to knock me backward (but not enough to knock me over, or out).......so I was unable to take any immediate action, other than pull the horse's head round so that he couldn't do it again.

Even so, I deemed that correction enough for the horse, and felt no anger at all toward him.

This is where the debate falls down, in my opinion, as it's impossible to physically reprimand a horse without allowing emotions to get involved.

I remain calm at all times when working horses, and I'm always willing to accept responsibility for any mistakes made by the horse, as horses are purely reactionary in accordance with the stimuli presented to them.

If I determine never to blame/chastise/strike a horse, then the emotions which would come to the fore in association with those acts are kept under under control.

To hit a horse is to lose control..........I don't do it to my wife or my children.....why would I do it to a horse?

[jaydevon]

I'm always willing to accept responsibility for any mistakes made by the horse, as horses are purely reactionary in accordance with the stimuli presented to them.

To hit a horse is to lose control..........I don't do it to my wife or my children.....why would I do it to a horse?

how can a person take responsibilty for a horses actions? from your line there your almost excusing the horse booting you in the face.

i dont suppose the wife walks beside you then kicks you, so im guessing she doesnt need any reprimanding,

hitting a horse isnt losing contol. the last smack snapper got was done with patiance, i stood and waited for her to put her leg through the gate, moment the leg come up she got a smack and a down. after that one she thought about doing it again but lifted the leg then put it straight down,

[levi1739]

Most people are thinking of reactive kicking, done in response to the horse misbehaving. Is it different if the “fake kick” is made by the human in a proactive cue? I favor an active approach with my methods, including the “act” of kicking. Many trainers will use a whip/rope to cause a horse to speed up when lunging. I will often turn my back and fake a kick towards a horse to cause the same thing. When in the pasture with a herd I do the same type of "fake kick" to cause a horse to move or pay attention. Backing up is another use, just move your foot back and “kick rearward” to make your horse back up. I never kick in anger but do “fake kick” with my horse, using my body language to get the horse to react in its nature.

Pat Parelli does this in his demonstrations. Might be that I picked the mannerism up from him. :)


Keep on, keeping on

Jack

[julia gulia]

Most people are thinking of reactive kicking, done in response to the horse misbehaving. Is it different if the “fake kick” is made by the human in a proactive cue? I favor an active approach with my methods, including the “act” of kicking. Many trainers will use a whip/rope to cause a horse to speed up when lunging. I will often turn my back and fake a kick towards a horse to cause the same thing. When in the pasture with a herd I do the same type of "fake kick" to cause a horse to move or pay attention. Backing up is another use, just move your foot back and “kick rearward” to make your horse back up. I never kick in anger but do “fake kick” with my horse, using my body language to get the horse to react in its nature.

Pat Parelli does this in his demonstrations. Might be that I picked the mannerism up from him. :)
.


Keep on, keeping on

Jack

Maybe you and Pat Parelli should cut back on watching kung foo movies :eek::cool:

[Abserd]

Thank you everyone for all your comments. I'm particularly pleased to see it's been maturely discussed and considered...not meaning to sound patronising in any way whatsoever, but after so many threads recently have ended up being closed i was a bit worried about posting in the first place but decided i needed to take the risk.

I'm really glad i did. As a relative newbie i try to glean as much information as i can and i'm feeling so much more justified about my reaction that day. I know i've had to be fairly vague about it, although i've PM'd some people the details, but really you've all helped so much and it's been really interesting reading your comments.

I honestly thought i was a being a 'soft girl'! But when i'm mucking out horses that tower over me (i'm 5ft 1") i make sure they know i'm there by touch and voice and if necessary will shout or give a quick slap if they crowd me or cause me to fear for my life! I agree, kicking has a certain amount of pre-meditation to it.

I'd love to see how some of you lot work with your horses, as Aengus says "I don't agree with violence, of any kind, against horses" and i often see, well not violence, but what i'd term harshness from this particular person. I know there have to be boundaries, for safety reasons, i just don't ever feel it's justified to wind oneself up so tightly that you verbally attack an RS client who pats said colt on the nose because said RS client saw 'himself' kick the pony after it had been untacked from unsuccessful schooling session and led to stable! Yes that's pretty much what happened and set off a huge amount of difficult emotions in me, after a very difficult day.

So here endeth my postage, i'm really appreciative of all your considerations in this, it's not only put my mind at rest but has also proved to me that although inexperienced, i've obviously got a bit of nouse (sp?) !!

Cheers everyone xx