Vid critique please - this horse has me puzzled

[Tootsie4U]

Hi everyone:

Im going to be brave and post these videos of me riding a new horse we just bought. Its my first time on him and Im struggling with his trot (its massive and launching me out of the saddle). Keeping my hands still is not an easy task.

Anyway, to those with trained eyes, do you see anything in his demeanor, way of going, or attitude that would cause you concern?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qLw0b7SMHQ

and this:

http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i25/Tootsie4U/?action=view&current=MVI_0557.flv

[oinkmoooink]

To me (not a VERY trained eye), he looks like he has potential to go really nicely, nice trot. But it looks in the videos, as if he has quite a lot of muscle under his neck, meaning hes probably used to going along with his nose in the air, he also looks as if he is resisting, but as you get to know him more hopefully that wil change.
Im not trying to critique you at all, as it was your first time on him, but try lowering your hands a little and relaxing and he should bring his head down a bit.
I personally cant see anythigt that makes me scream TERRIBLE HORSE! Hows his brakes?

[Mehitabel]

he looks like he either is, or was, uncomfortable in his mouth - has he had teeth done, and have you tried any other mouthpieces for the bit? he is tilting his head and chomping like he is trying to get away from the contact, and when in the canter video you gave youre hands forward, he immediately went 'oh thankyou' and dropped his head, before he flopped into trot. if i were teaching you, i would first want to check out discomfort in the mouth before starting to work onthe contact issues.

and mnost important - you bought a new horse without telling me!! you rotter! ;)

[jaydevon]

i was like this when i forst had pluto. he has such a big bouncy trot, i used to get a stich, and i still cant sit to it!

what i noticed from the video is your double sitting, like you sit, but sort of sit again. pop your stirrups up a hole or two, and let the horse throw you up being cautious of rising to high, with your hands let him have his head a bit more so that you can concentrate on you rather than him, and you wont be interfering with his mouth.

if possible go out for hack, find a nice long streatch preffable up hill, going up hill he will be less inclinded to stick hes head up, and it gives you a good run to get into your stride without worrying about corners etc.

if it helps it proberley took me about 3 months to totally master plutos trot. as a rider that has very still hands, i felt awful in trot, like my hands were going up and down about a foot!

[Trio]

lol my boys got a tro exactly like this, i know its not his mouth as i've had his teeth checked twice in the past 6 months, not the bit as even with no reins he's still like this.
Your boy has a very prancey and energetic trot whcih makes it bouncy, he's also not really tracking up so is heavy on the forehand which makes it worse.

If its any consolation my boys getting better now but it has taken 6 months of lots and lots of trotting (and alot of back pain, stictches and cramps) to get there. he's still bouncy but is getting more relaxed.

[mikh]

Looks to me like the lack of contact on the front is encouraging him to do a longer/extended trot, do get his teeth seen to and then perhaps try to work on encouraging him to drop his head slightly. If you're not holding him at the front then he will go loooong.

[Tootsie4U]

Hi again,

I know it wasnt the best riding I've done, thats why I said I was being brave :D Plus, he's not the easiest horse to ride!

Other than my unsteady hands, I was asking or doing nothing with the reins to make him hold his head that high. I expect that is his inclination from previous owners' riding and/or use of him as a power jumper. (Formerly ridden in martingale).

He is being ridden in a plain copper mouth egg butt snaffle. I dont know his dental history.

Thats a bit more information. Im looking for any insight as to potential behavioral problems based on what you might see in these short vids.

I'll fill you in on what went drastically wrong after I get a few more guesses.

ps- He's not mine. I picked him out for the RS I work for.

pps- I should mention Im not looking for the 'hows' to fix his head or contact. (Although I appreciate the help!). I've got a behavioral problem here thats top priority.

[capalldubh]

Sorry, prob not much help, but it seems to me if you edited out the rider, he would look exactly like a trotter - was he always a riding horse? Does he pace at all? It's just the way of going, he looks as though he should be pulling a sulky on a track.

He certainly doesn't look too happy, though, not relaxed at all.

[Remmy]

Hi there

If he were my horse - I'd be looking at back, saddle, bitting and teeth for starters.

Best of luck as he looks lovely.

[Mehitabel]

i will forgive you then! ;)
i can see you're not instigating the head carriage - that's why i said check teeth. other things that could give that are a long time in a martingale so he is used to leaning on something keeping his head down, and when it's not there he has nothing to lean on so head goes right up. what little muscle he has on his neck is under neath it, so that fits as well. it could also be backl or saddle, or ears being pinched by the bridle, or poll pain - the flinching away of the topline and inverted outline (hollow back and high neck, when you want a rounded back and lower neck) could spell pain from back as well.

i would not be surprised if you said he bolted, for instance - is that the kind of thing you mean?

[Nik-n-Kia]

I would say he had back torubles from those vids!!!

I wouldnt have picked him for an RS horse. I would have picked him as a project.

He does semm to have a funny look in his eye, I dont know if its fear or repressed agression when your riding but he looks to be running from something.

Nikki xxxx

[Tootsie4U]

So the story goes:

These two vids are of my first time on him. Ride #2 and 3 went similar. Ride # 4 I started asking for some lateral movement and flying changes - however still to this point I hadn't asked him to do anything with his head, extensions, track up, contact... I just tried to ride quietly and was testing out what he could do.

After a flying change across the diagonal, he got very hyper and strong in the canter but some strong half halts and voice correction brought him back.

I should throw in here real quick that there were several days between each ride. He was not ever ridden on subsequent days.

Ride #5 was trying him over some cavalettis. Flat work went as usual. On our first, tiniest, cavelleti (of which he trotted into) he took off like a Jet plane. Half a lap around the arena he dropped back to a 'controlable' trot again. I tried the cavaletti once more with the same result.

Ride #6 - I planned just to do flat work with him. That ride I tried asking him to soften to the bit (groundwork) before I got on. He responded reasonably well. I mounted and repeated the same principle of softening. He stood there and did nothing. I did NOT ask harder or vary my way of asking AT ALL. I just held the same pressure (mild to moderate pressure) for about five seconds and then all hell broke loose! It was like someone lit a rocket under him and he took off 0-60 in a stride and a half.

Our arena is gigantic and fully sand. It had just been raked, so the sand was soft & deep in places. That horse went around the arena at top speed 15 laps (according to my boss who was watching). I tried every trick in the book to slow or stop him and when none of that worked I just tried to ride it out figuring that he'd get tired. Well, his stamina is better than mine and after motor biking around at such a fast speed I was exhausted and had to bail out.

Unfortunately, he hasnt been ridden since.

Those of you who said 'running away' are spot on, I think. Whatever happened in his past, by way he was ridden or loop holes in his training, has caused him to be a bolter. Is this something that can be re-conditioned with starting back at square one or is this a case where he goes on instinct and that instinct just can't be trained out of him, especially as a 9 year old horse.

By the way, this is a Irish Sport Horse. Im pretty sure he is not a pacer.

[horseygirl123]

I would agree with the others, before you try anymore ridden work i would definately get back, teeth and tack checked, seems to me he is very uncomfortable, whether that be with his mouth or his back, at least that way you can eliminate pain ;)

[shandy84]

He looks like my three year old in regards to his mouth and head carriage, although hers is more of an up down jig :o:rolleyes: anyway I find mine is obviously lack of education, do you know if he has ever been taught to accept having the bit in his mouth?

Could you try him in a hackamore to see if he settles a little as that will quickly tell you if it's his mouth causing him problems.

I did also notice your double bounce but he is a big striding boy so expect I would be the same on him, does he lunge or long rein at all, maybe try him without a rider see how he goes and if he can soften up to the bit at all?

[levi1739]

How old is this horse? Has he ever raced? When you held the mild to moderate pressure, were you using two hands?:)

That ride I tried asking him to soften to the bit (groundwork) before I got on. He responded reasonably well. I mounted and repeated the same principle of softening. He stood there and did nothing. I did NOT ask harder or vary my way of asking AT ALL. I just held the same pressure (mild to moderate pressure) for about five seconds and then all hell broke loose! It was like someone lit a rocket under him and he took off 0-60 in a stride and a half.

Your pictures show a “reactionary horse”. Horses like this are likely to react in any manner. He is constantly bracing his head and neck while pulling on the bit. He’s actually “braced” from head to tail and “ground pounding” hard. I would sure be doing a lot of “lateral bending” and “give to the bit” type stuff (halter or snaffle) before I would ride him. He needs to have some “brain” training to shrink the “reactionary” and replace it with the “thinking brain”. If he’s as resistant as it appears, it might take awhile before he decides to “give” you much of a try. :cool:


Keep on, keeping on

Jack

[~*sugarlump*~]

i would really get back checked, and saddle as he really doesnt look that happy with it.

king used to trot like that turns out he has a very messed up back

[Harry Hobbes]

Is this something that can be re-conditioned...As long as the horse is alive, it can be re-trained.

...with starting back at square oneNot necessary. Just focus on his core issue. (Not to imply that re-starting any horse - or human - isn't a good thing in general.)

...or is this a case where he goes on instinct and that instinct just can't be trained out of him, especially as a 9 year old horse."Conditioning" in a sense is a form of instilling artificial instinct; meaning that we condition to intill artificial instinctual behaviors. Hence, if he's living, he can learn new behaviors.

What would this horse do if you mounted up, asked it to step over one (low) cavalletti at a walk, and then just stand still on the other side for five minutes on a loose rein? (While both of you just looked around at the scenery?)

Yes, that's a hint at resolution. ;)

Best regards,
Harry

[eml]

His muscle and shape make him look as if he has been constantly ridden off holding hands, head up, large muscle under neck. Canter is much better than trot, has he been showjumped a lot ie has his trot not been worked on?

He doesn't look what we in the UK expect to see as an ISH. The Irish paces tend to be much smaller and slightly choppy, even bred to a TB the paces are never going to be as big as these.

I would go back to the beginning and redevelop the muscles with lunging, feeding off floor, strapping etc. Then reback. To be fair I wouldn't have proceeded to session 4,5,6 based on this performance but gone straight back to basics.

Intersting challenge, I shall look forward to updates.

[BeachRiding]

Sounds to me like TEETH! Pete used to do the same. Very resistant than he would jsut seem to 'spook' and take off....

[puzzles]

I most certainly wouldn't be able to sit to that trot, so well done for doing as well as you did !

I would definitely have teeth hecked, and bit looked at too ... he was also hollowing his back, giving you nothing really to sit on, and bit/back may have a linked problem so Iwould have both checked personally.

But he has the potential for lovely paces!

:-)

[Skyhuntress]

Hers' the thing I notice, aside from the head carriage, which others have pointed out.

His way of going with his front legs makes it appear as if he's continously trying to extend with his front legs, but not quite able to back it up with his hind.
If I had to guess, someone has ridden him in a fashion in which they ask and ask for more impulsion but don't have a contact to back it up, so he just gets strung out through the back while his front feet try hard to pull himself along. He's bracing himself in his whole body, with no hint of acceptance of the bit or a rider's leg.

It can be fixed. I would work on the lunge for a LONG time, getting him to accept the bit, get him relaxed in the jaw and bending around the ribcage and start retraining muscles

[Fanshawe]

My instincts say there is something wrong with his back. He's running away from the pain and if you ask for contact then he has to use his back muscles which will hurt a lot. It's probably why they stuck him in a martingale to get some control and why he has such a bouncy trot.

I'd say get everything checked and do no ridden work for ages. Spend time doing work from the ground and getting the neck/back etc flexing sideways as well as down. It will take time and lots of positive experiences before he will relax enough to accept any contact.

[beating_hooves]

First thing I would do would be to get his sadlle and teeth checked.

Regarding that's given the all clear I would do a lot of long lining with him as he seems to be avoiding contact and is all tensed up.

There is a book called 'Unlock your horses talents in 20 minutes a day' that I think that horse would benefit from.

Good luck! :)

[go max!]

I would say this guy has almost certainly done harness racing, which would explain his way of going - -look at some harness racing videos on YouTube, the action is certainly there. It would also explain his inability to deal with cavaletti, his explosive 0-60 start, and his lack of understanding of ridden aids.

If he were mine, I would start from scratch and re-train him, bearing in mind his history might make him more difficult than a completely green youngster. I would plan roughly to spend the summer working on him, turn him away for the winter, and bring him back into work next summer, and which point you can assess how much he has progressed.

I'm not sure a RS would want to invest that much time and effort in a horse that may never be suitable as a RS prospect, but hopefully they will, because he is beautiful and certainly has something special about him.

Good luck!!

[LeftBrainer]

He looks like he knows to trot nicely but is desperately protecting his back. His head carriage seems very defensive...

[Irishgal]

Your horse looks nice, but if you notice in the videos you are kickin wit yourlegs unintentionally so this is drivin him forward more than you would like. He is also feelin more contact than usual on his reins so this may be some of the reason for his unhappy head carrage. Just work on keepin your lower leg quiter and staying more relaxed and calm when riding so that you can ride at a more even tempo.
Good luck!

[blues mum]

He looks like he has issues with his back to me.
He looks stiff and uncomfortable through his back legs, and is not tracking up properly.
Get his back checked out ( and teeth ) before starting to retrain.
I have an old lad with back and hock issues, he trots the same with his back legs

[horsecrazychick]

I agree that he is extremely resistant to the bit and that could certainly be due to back/teeth problems as everyone else has said. However, some horses just start out in the wrong hands and maybe he has just learned to resist like this because of someone with harsh hands/harsh bit/ or simply a lack of experience with horses. He looks like he would be a really nice mover if he could relax his topline and engage his hindquarters- he certainly has no problem with extending or with the reach in the front end. So if you can't find any physical problems with him causing pain, you should go back to basics. Do a lot of bending side-to-side, even just at the halt and release immediately when you get a give from the horse. Work on picking up a light contact and as soon as he stops resisting, release the contact. Maybe try an extremely gentle bit. The more lateral flexion you do the more he will bend at the rib cage and the better his vertical flexion will become. The bolting/quickness will correct itself when he learns to accept the bit and collect some. I think you will have a very nice horse with some training and some time.

[Bangers & Mash]

There is definatley something. to me he looks lame on one of his fore legs (bobbing head, uneven paces) but he deffinatly has trotter in him which is influencing his movment.

[Kate F.]

I'm definitely in the "back" camp - though wouldn't be totally surprised if it were teeth. However, everthing is screaming "back" to me at the moment - so back and saddle would be my first ports of call.

There may be re-training issues after the pain is fixed - that will depend a bit on how long he's been in pain. However, looking at the neck muscles it looks like it's a long standing issue that someone has tried to "ride through", presumably not realizing it's probably pain based, and this has made him very defensive.

When it's just poor training, the horse tends to just stick its nose in the air and paddle along - the paces are even, just incorrect. It's not in pain carrying the rider, it's just not carrying the rider in the best way. All this snatching and "hopping" looks very much like pain to me.

Just out of curiosity, why did you buy him?

[Kate F.]

Not necessary. Just focus on his core issue.

Hmm. That assumes you know what his core issue is. His core issue isn't sticking his nose in the air or running off - those are the symptoms. The core issue is WHY he's doing these things. That could be all sorts of things. He might be really unhappy about having a rider up there in his blind spot in the first place. (Surprisingly common!). He might have had a bad experience in the past related to a particular sequence of events. He may have never been properly trained to hand adn/or leg aids. The quickest, easiest and safest way to find out is to go back to the beginning and see where things start to come unglued, then fix them as you go along. You may well find other holes in the training that haven't yet shown symptoms, and can prevent future problems arising.

The cavaletti exercise you suggest could certainly be part of the treatment - but if the real problem is before you get on in the first place, or when you get on, it's not really dealing with it. It may work for that one situation, but the underlying problem is still there.

[Chukka]

Whats he like when others ride him. Its very interesting to see your horse being ridden by other people to see from the ground how it reacts.

[Nimbus65]

He looks very resistant and uncomfortable to me . . . particularly in the trot. His high head carriage could be a way of him evading the bit b/c of teeth issues, but it also looks to me as though every time you sit (in the rising trot) his head comes further up so perhaps his back is sore.

He also looks "broken" - he doesn't make the shape of one horse . . . if that makes sense . . . so perhaps he's never learned how to use himself properly (and comfortably) . . . echo all those here who said they'd get him thoroughly checked over (back, tack, teeth, feet, everything else).

[carrimclaren]

Well i'll throw in my tenpence worth even though it's a complete beginners point of view and probably a load of rubbish (but i'm bored so hey) ;)
I agree with the above comment about him looking like two horses, i thought that in the first video watching him trotting.
I'd also agree with everyone that has said get the pain issues checked out first, if everything is okay then you know you have the go ahead to work with the issues at hand. He reminds me very much of my mare when i got her. She had teeth and back issues and had the exact same problem. Weak muscles, nose in the air, looked like two halves of different horses stuck together, would tear off round the school etc. So i had to stop riding and get all the people out to check her over.
Once we had the pain issues sorted the schooling work needed to start. Basically i stayed in walk for the schooling sessions and worked on walk to halt walk to halt, bending, circles etc. A friend once taught me the thought process of if you haven't mastered walk don't move on to trot and i usually tend to follow that nowadays as it suits me (prob not everyone). It sure as hell worked on my mare, once she was more supple started working on shortening and lengthing at walk, then at trot etc. etc. It was a long road but made longer by my confidence issues.

[CER1389]

I agree with the whole back-teeth brigade however (I don't think any ones suggested this) he needs to slow down completley.

If necessary hold onto the front of the saddle, and just control your own rising (put your stirrups up a bit if it helps) keep counting in your head, thinking slow, regardless of the speed he is trotting at. He should slow his speed to fit with your rising. Once he is slower he will be more balanced, and be able to work through from behind more, making it comfier for you. Although he looks slightly like he is running from pain, most horses will quicken when unbalanced.

If you can get him to slow, you will have more time to think each stride, so will he to settle down more, and should then work more into your rein. If he does have back or teeth problems and is stiff, then by slowing down his movement these should become far more obvious.

[Harry Hobbes]

Hmm. That assumes you know what his core issue is. His core issue isn't sticking his nose in the air or running off - those are the symptoms. The core issue is WHY he's doing these things. That could be all sorts of things. He might be really unhappy about having a rider up there in his blind spot in the first place. (Surprisingly common!). He might have had a bad experience in the past related to a particular sequence of events. He may have never been properly trained to hand adn/or leg aids. The quickest, easiest and safest way to find out is to go back to the beginning and see where things start to come unglued, then fix them as you go along. You may well find other holes in the training that haven't yet shown symptoms, and can prevent future problems arising.

The cavaletti exercise you suggest could certainly be part of the treatment - but if the real problem is before you get on in the first place, or when you get on, it's not really dealing with it. It may work for that one situation, but the underlying problem is still there.Good for you!

You've figured it out...

Best regards,
Harry

[Dizzy]

He's completely on the forehand, and totally resisting your contact. That could be the way he has always gone, because of his previous riders - or it could pain related.

The trot was too fast, he was dictating the pace. You could slow it down by relaxing and slowing down your rises, relax your arms and hands, and reduce the size of the circle using the direction your shoulders aim and weight aids.

Keep changing direction using your shoulder aim and weight aids, use your balance to dictate your rise and fall, doing this you'll stop him getting too much hollow forward motion, and he'll have to start to listen to your aids, and you won't have to use too much rien contact, as your body and motion will be dictating the pace and direction.

[jroz]

Hers' the thing I notice, aside from the head carriage, which others have pointed out.

His way of going with his front legs makes it appear as if he's continously trying to extend with his front legs, but not quite able to back it up with his hind.
If I had to guess, someone has ridden him in a fashion in which they ask and ask for more impulsion but don't have a contact to back it up, so he just gets strung out through the back while his front feet try hard to pull himself along. He's bracing himself in his whole body, with no hint of acceptance of the bit or a rider's leg.



That was my first observation.

[Chilli]

He is stiff from his nose to his tail, rather than lifting his back he is the opposite which is why his legs are out front and out back, this is bio mechanically harsh for the horse with a rider.

The reason he’s so hard to sit to is that he is stiff as a board through tension probably due to discomfort over years, how ever you ride you’ll be crashing on his back because his back is so stiff it can’t absorb any of your movement.

I’d also try him bitless to make sure it’s not his teeth but I don’t think it’s the main problem.

The most interesting part for me is when he drops out of canter at the end it’s the only time there is a glimmer of less tension, it would be nice to see a few more strides after that, but I’d say he’s the way he is due to the way he’s been ridden if it was my horse I’d do nothing at all with him for 6 months (other than get a chiro out) so he can drop his muscle then start from scratch he needs to learn how to carry himself again and there is a problem he may suffer from memories of pain even when they have gone.

I doubt he’s much of a jumper with is legs out front and back like that even though he tanks round from pain every time he lands after a jump giving the impression he’s a speed horse.

It’s just an opinion based on two tiny clips :) it might not be right.

[NoviceNic]

Im no expert so I wont try and help. I just wanted to point out that he "Hangs". His head is typical for a racer from the UK. :)

[DebO]

Hi there

First impression was he was trying to evade you, (head up which would cause him pain in his back too) could be because of your hands and the bit or because at first you seemed to bounce about a bit on his back.

I would get everything checked out to make sure it's not teeth, tack related etc, and as you say because you are not balanced your hands are bobbing about a lot which won't be nice for him.

Try shortening your stirrups a bit and take it a lot lot slower so that you can get your balance and so can he.
DebO

[Ansiosa]

Hi everyone:
Anyway, to those with trained eyes, do you see anything in his demeanor, way of going, or attitude that would cause you concern?

I don't know about a 'trained eye', but what I get (in an interested observer kind of a way) is the impression of a horse whose body is moving forward, but whose mind is not:eek:

He looks tense, worried and not really involved in any sort of positive way in what he is doing. He could be protecting his back/teeth etc because of pain or the anticipation of pain and I would certainly get all that checked out, but my gut feeling is that it's actually his mind that needs addressing. The only time I felt he 'softened' on those clips was for a moment when dropping down from canter to trot, which coincidentally was the only time when he probably felt that the 'pressure' was coming off.

Personally I would not want to put him in a riding school environment :eek: I would want to take him back to the beginning and have someone sympathetic and versed in the art of horsemanship to fix any holes in his education and try and get him working with people, not despite them.

Just my thoughts - hope he'll get sorted :)

[AengusOg]

I thought he was lame on the right fore as he came round the first time.

But I think it's his back, possibly in the sacral area, that's preventing him from stepping under himself, so he's trying to compensate by scrabbling along with an extended fore action.