Flair & Cair systems - experiences?

[Ms Kitty]

I've never had a saddle with either, so I thought I'd ask opinions of and/or experiences with either of them, as I am debating a saddle purchase..

I've heard some horses don't like the air system? How common is it for them to take a disliking to it? (I know, kind of "how long is a piece of string" question but.. ;)) And how expensive it is to get the flair fitted? I assume you need a special fitter, not just any old fitter can fit them? If it breaks, how difficult/expensive is it to fix? Do they break easily in normal use? If the horse takes a dislike on either, can they be changed to normal flocking?

Anything else worth mentioning I haven't asked about?

Thanks a lot! :)

Nina x

[Nookster]

I used cair on Chinook and Voltan with no issues

I did have flair fitted to a leather show saddle i had - cost £300 to be fitted. Voltan didn't take to it one bit - just head shaking but you could see he didn't like it. Sadly a waste and wish instead of getting it fitted trying a demo first. My fitter was qualified to fit flair - not sure what they need to know/ do. It came with a guarantee/warranty but can't remember for how long

[Palomino Mare]

my wintec had cair and my horse didnt mind it although you can feel and now see easily the lines of the bags which i'm sure a horse would feel those pressure points

never used flair - i thought they were the same thing:o

[Bozzy]

I tried my previous horse in a WOW which has flair, he went much better than normal, really opened up through the shoulder etc. A very excited me then ordered one, 6 weeks later when the fitter came to fit it my boy went beserk with it, constantly bucking (not like him at all, he's a rearer!!) and just not happy with it. Needless to say I didn't keep it and though I lost my £100 deposit however thankfully I saved myself the £1500 extra ;) For some reason he suddenly decided he didn't like it.

The saddle itself was absolutely lovely and if I get the chance again, I'd have one in a flash!

Never used Cair, from what I've read I haven't heard great things about it. I had briefly been looking at the Bates saddles for my new horse but the Cair has put me off?

[coss]

my RI uses a bates with cair and the two horses she uses it on work happily in it.
one of my friends has flair and it deflated badly and it wasn't useable (lack of saddle fitters in the area)... recently a saddle fitter (that does cair/flair) moved back to the area so all is fine again

[KateWooten]

I have the Cair panels in the Wintec and none of mine like it - but that's the saddle as a whole, not necessarily the Cair system itself.

[Jenny2502]

i had a wintec with Cair i was told it was ruining my horses back, so converted to farrington, never looking back!! :D

[eml]

We have used a flair numnah with not very good results but I think that is because it is designed for one rider/one horse and conventional flocking is more 'giving'

[Ms Kitty]

Hmm, after what everyone's said and having done some reading I am starting to be put off by them both, just too big a risk to buy a saddle to see if my horse would like the different flocking (no opportunity for pre-purchase testing).. Been looking at a Bates with Cair and a Kieffer with Flair, but I think I will continue my search.

Thanks guys! :)

Nina x

[Pink's lady]

Really dislike cair - as it's got very little 'moulding' to it. If the panels otherwise fit perfectly, it's great, as it never balls or becomes lumpy and gives good pressure distribution.

But if the saddle does't fit perfectly it's no better than flocking - in fact it's worse - flocking eventually bed down and most differences from the horse (panels cambre, rock etc) gets squashed out of it and STAYS squashed out of it. It'll be uncomfortable pressure whilst the flocking is pushed about (bedding down basically) but each time pressure is applied (i.e rising trot) it improves a little until it's as good as it gets (of course it may still be terrible if the saddle doesn't fit!).

Cair on the other hand springs back into shape each time and therefore never beds down - the same pressure point is re-applied every single time, with no lessening. As it's not particularly soft (still takes a reasonable amount of pressure to deform it) the reapplying of that pressure point accumulates quickly and leads to soreness. The panels remain slightly too curved or too cambred and never bed out. It's like riding in a brand new, unbedded, saddle each time.

If that makes sense:o

Flair on the other hand is very soft and moulding, so although, like cair, it springs back into shape each time and then needs to redefrom to match the back, it's so soft that the pressure required to deform to panels to the correct shape is minimal and therefore doesn't lead to soreness.

However I'm not too convinced about pressure points under the over lap of the bags in the middle........

[Sticky's GF]

I have had my WOW for a month now and so far so good.

When I went and tried it out (at the manufacturers) Jez did freak out a bit, but they did say some horses have a bit of an extreme reaction to them as they feel so different. Litterally mine reared up and started bouncing around the stable - and I hadn't even got on at this point!!!

When I did get on him he bounced around for about 10 mins before settling and doing some really nice work.

A month later and he is looking SO much more muscled - which they said would happen as he was able to move more freely through his shoulders and back. He was a bit under weight anyway and my issue was that if I had bought a conventional saddle a month ago chances are it wouldn't fit now/a few months down the line. Am going in a couple of weeks to have it checked/adjusted accordingly.

As for cost, a friend of mine looked at having her conventional saddle adjusted and I dont think she was going to get much change from £500.

:)

[Lgd]

I've been using WOW saddles (built around the Flair system) now for over 4 years.

To use them effectively you need to be an educated rider and work with your fitter to get the best out of them. You must accept that they do need adjusting frequently at first as the horse changes its muscling quite rapidly, particularly if they have assymmetry issues as they seem to correct quite quickly.

Some horses don't like the air bags - I've had no bother with mine nor has my friend whose horse has had one on since he was rising 5yo.

I have tried a CAIR saddle on my older mare and she said "no thank you" quite firmly by refusing to go forward properly. I presume it was the CAIR as she had worn my other horse's Isabell Wintec with conventional flocking with no problem, it wasn't the right shape for her generally but she would at least go forward!

I wonder if with the CAIR it is the pre-set element that causes some of the issues. I know with the flair system in the WOW that my two mares have very different preferences. My 7/8 TB mare likes the panels to be much firmer than the other mare who likes them just over atmospheric pressure.

Flairing a conventional saddle won't make a badly fitting saddle fit, it will make a well fitting saddle fit better. I think my saddler charges around £350 to retro-fit flair to a saddle.

[Ms Kitty]

PL, it makes perfect sense what you say about the Cair, I think I will stay well away from saddles with it, but damn you S's GF and lgd, you've made me start thinking about Flair as a possibility again.. ;) Will have to have a think whether I dare to take the plunge with it this time or not..

Nina x

[Lgd]

And just to wind you up a bit more :D

This is Tavia pre-WOW (my niece is riding her) taken in 2003

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=779

Post-WOW, she would have had it around 3 - 4 months by this point, me on board (so heavier rider) August 2004

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8449

Area Festival 11/06

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16240

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16242

Regional Champs 01/07

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16479

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16480

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16487

[kaytenherponies]

I have had problems with my horses back for the last year due to his saddles (flocked pro dressage, made to measure leather flocked:rolleyes:)

I am now using a wintec vsd with cair, and we both find it fab. Although It is used with a back raiser pad so gives him a bit more protection.

Not had so much as a swish of the tail since I started to use it!

I think like with everything horsey you have to find something that suits your horse!

[Chilli]

I have a WOW saddle i got it to replace my made to measure dressage saddle, my horse went fabulessly in it, at the time i wasn't doing to much canter as coming back from an injury, after 6 months as we started to do more and more canter he became resistive going into canter but after he had cantered once he was fine.

This slowly got worse and worse so i swapped back to my made to measure saddle which i had adjusted at the same time as the WOW was fitted and the resistance dissappeared.

So the WOW is doing nothing now and won't ever go back on, it's a shame i'm just glad i hadn't sold my old saddle.

[eventerbabe]

Like with everything to do with horses, some things suit some horses and don't suit others ;) my welsh mare had a wintec with cair and i've never seen her go do well. She really seemed to like the cair and was more forward moving and relaxed than i'd ever seen her in her flocked saddle. I think the old adage "suck it and see" applies here. See if you can try a cair and a flair saddle.

[oldbat]

We bought a Bates caprilli for the younger horse when we bought him. He changed shape as he muscled up so we called out saddler to adjust saddle. Not possible. We contacted another saddler who also declined to touch it. I would make very sure before you buy a cair or flair saddle that you have a saddler who is willing to fit and adjust it. certainly I would never buy one again and am having great difficulty selling the current one.
Oldbat.

[Ms Kitty]

Thanks for all the further comments! Lgd, yours horse is really beautiful, and clearly your current saddle isn't obstructing her movement! ;)

I think I have given up on the Cair, I will ask around to see if I can get a fitter for the Flair easily before I continue on that route, otherwise I will keep looking just normally flocked saddles! :)

Nina x