spooking or food aggression

[stormy's mum]

hi i go to vet tech school and we have a horse there that is very naughty around her hay. when you put it out she backs up to buck and kick at you with here ears flat. the bucket is deep so i thought maybe she was spooked when she put her head in and couldn't see out. or maybe a food aggression. she already kicked me so need to find a soultion to this
thanks

[Thistle]

Sounds like aggression to me! If possible I would take her out of the field or tie her up whilst you put the hay in. Or just chuck it over the fence. If you are not allowed to do this I'd suggest wearing a hard hat and taking a whip with you, just so that you can wave it at her to keep her back til you are done.

[stormy's mum]

last time she was held while i put the hay in seemed to work ok but she was still trying to kick cant chuck it over the fence because i have to go through her pen to get to the other horses

[jaydevon]

have a look at my update new mare thread, snaps has terrible fa, to the point of kicking biting lunging, spinning and has even tried to flatten some one against a wall, now after a lot of hard/risky work shes a million times better

[wundahoss]

If you don't need/want to deal with this mare otherwise, I'd just carry a stick/whip and make sure she knows I'm not afraid to use it if she encroaches on my space, wherever that is in relation to her hay.

If you want to actually deal with this mare or teach her better manners, I'd start controlling her access to the hay or other feed. Treats can also be handy in teaching a horse to be 'nice' & have good manners. If you're worried about your safety, start on the other side of the fence. This is how I'd do it...

Invite her to you, offering food, but insist she approach you with a nice face - chase her away the instant she looks bossy. The first fair number of times you might be chasing her away more often than not. You might also want to use a halter & long lead, to reel her in if she fails enough to lose her desire to come. The first time she comes in nicely she might only get a quick bite before her attitude changes & you have to chase her away again. Be consistant & repeat it & she'll soon work out what works for her & what doesn't.

Once she's good at this, then start putting her hay down & walking past her. For safety, stay out of range, or right in close with contact on the lead, to spin her around towards you the instant she looks grumpy. Again, allow her to eat so long as she's nice, but chase her off - maybe with a smack of the whip on her rump - when she's not. Work gradually towards being able to do stuff around her & then to her(grooming or such) without her reacting.

[AengusOg]

Be careful..........unless you have experience of this kind of corrective training.

The essential thing when working in close confines, with a horse on a rope, is to be quick thinking, and even quicker on your feet.

Always be ready to pull her head round toward you (which will move her hind quarters away from you, thus reducing the chance of getting a kick), but also be prepared to use the coiled rope to keep her from coming at you with the other end, ie her teeth/head.

Once she has taken a correction and you are sure you are safe, remember to release any pressure on her by giving the rope and becoming passive in your stance; this will let her understand that she has behaved properly, and will allow her to offer the correct response if you have to do it again.

If you must use a whip be very careful that she doesn't respond to it's use with aggression, particularly in a small space. This sort of work is best carried out in a large area where both horse and handler have room to manoeuvre. The horse needs to be able to retreat to a safe distance from any threat, and the handler has to be safe. In a small area, such as a stable, there may not be enough room to satisfy the horse's (perceived) safe distance, so it may have to resort to aggression rather than flight.

The flight response can be advantageous in training of this sort, whereas forced aggression is counterproductive.

If you have to work in the stable, you may be wise to offer feed from the open doorway and, if she tries to threaten you, and you cannot make her back off, at least you can close the door and remain safe.

If you do try to remedy this behaviour remember, any action on your part must be swift and in direct response to a threat from her and, the instant she backs away/changes her attitude/becomes non-threatening, you must instantly reward her by becoming passive and removing your threat.

Good luck :)

[jaydevon]

totally agree with the above, i have to say feeding treats to a horse with food aggression isnt a very good idea.

with snaps its taken me months, i started with hay, and would just stand outside the stable with the door shut and just be there, when she stopped lunging at me, i opened the door and just stood there.... then progressed to to taking a step closer and rasing my hand like i was going to touch her.. it was proberley 2 months of this before i could stand in the stable with her whilst she ate. i also taught her that she didnt go for the hay until the head collor was off.

theres a lot more to it, but a horse that has food agression has proberley been starved or had to fight for food. a whip and punishment isnt the way to go, chances are your make the horse even more nasty, as all its actually doing is defending its food, you need to give the horse time to relise that your not going to take the food away, and that your not a threat.

expect it to take months not days. look at it from the horses point of view. and take each stage very slowley and dont force yourself on to the horse to much.

[stormy's mum]

they dont have a stable shes is kept in a small pen by herself. i was thinking it was aggression but she is fine with grain. she has been getting worked with by pacs and had been better they are tring to feed her in a shallow food bucket so she can see all around but i think the spooking is a learned behavior

[AengusOg]

Maybe you should enlarge on what she actually does to cause concern as I am confused as to what the problem really is.

More information regarding her accomodation/routine/feed/handling/level of training.....................would be helpful too.

:)

[stormy's mum]

when you put hay in her bucket she whips around and bucks. i thought she was being aggressive but my instructor thinks she spooked because she cant see out of the bucket. we got her a shallow hay bucket but the behavior is still there it hink it is learned at this point. since she lives a t school she is handled by serveral people so her handling is not consistent she is almost three

[AengusOg]

From the information you have given, I'd say that the filly is reacting out of fear rather than displaying aggression.

Food aggressive horses tend to come at you with their teeth and fore-ends, sometimes swishing their tails, sidling, and threatening to cow kick.

Young horses can often try a stance against the handler where feed is concerned, and will use this type of threat.

However, if made to feel intensely fearful in a confined space they will often resort to turning their quarters as a greater threat, as they have no room get away, resulting in forced aggression rather than the flight response. It has the effect of keeping the quarters to the handler, but also makes their head very difficult to get to.

If caught early enough, genuinely food aggressive animals can often be dissuaded from such behaviour by a timely 'starjump' threat, and an equally timely reward, from the handler. The reward need be no more than the removal of the threat (created by the 'starjump') by a passive reaction from the handler the instant the horse drops its threat and backs off.

It sounds to me as if this filly has been subjected to too much of a correction and has taken to turning her quarters to the handler in an effort to protect herself.

The fact that there are several different persons involved in her management can make this a difficult scenario, as what she needs is consistent and compassionate management, not several different approaches, some of which may be too harsh.

A key element to this type of corrective training is a handler who is fair, and not afraid of the horse.

I would suggest training her to have a halter on, and taught to 'face-up'; this will probably have to be done independently of her feed times.

That way she is trained to face up to the doorway, when the handler can then clip a lead rope on and have control of her head as the hay is introduced to her pen.

She will not then be able to turn away and can be taught to back up before she receives her hay.

Alternatively it may be safer all round to lead her out of the pen, only putting her back when her feed has been put down.

This may initially require the cooperation of two persons....one to handle the horse, and the other to deal with the feed.

This filly really needs a quiet but confident handler to remedy this habit. If this problem is not addressed she will not improve; treated too coarsely she may be forced to start offering to kick as well as turning around.

[stormy's mum]

yes i think she is going to leave school and go back to her owner or with one of our instructors. not sure how kiwi is going to like this but we have one last group of animal care to go so she will have to learn how to behave and not kick she was fine when she first arrived