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snailspace
8th Nov 2002, 02:34 PM
Before my former instructor moved away, she introduced this new technique to all of her students. she's also using it with her 4 year old. Being an amateur, I'm interested in other's opinions of this (especially all you trainers/instructors out there). It works well, but I'd like to know more about WHY it works. I hope I can explain it adequately.

I had been taught the "suppling" technique, with the use of your legs, to get the horse "on the bit". Supple inside, supple outside, etc., use lots of leg. Horse will then begin to carry himself and come on the bit, and then you supple softly (and use a little leg) any time you feel him come off a little to remind him to stay round.

By "supple", I mean the successive little tugs (sorry, can't think of a better word) on the bit. I think this is a very commom technique, at least in the U.S.

Now, here's the new way we've been doing it (as best as I can explain it):

Instead of suppling, you take contact, then pull back gently and evenly on the reins, at the same time moving your hands outward. when the horse responds by accepting the contact and coming round a little, you reward by softening. Then ask for a little more, soften, etc., until the horse is carrying himself in a nice outline with soft contact. Then, after the horse understands the aids, all you have to do to ask him to be round or keep him round is move your hands apart just a little. You use your legs, too, just as you would with any other method, to get the self-carriage and bend.

Even Blackjack, who is a 20 yo schoolmaster, has responded well to this technique. It took a little bit for him to understand what we were asking, but after just a few lessons, he gets it now (he doesn't always agree he needs to do it, but he gets it:) ). We still aren't to the point where all I have to do is move my hands apart, but we're getting there.

Here's something I don't understand, though. Blackjack can be a bit lazy, and will try any means possible to avoid carrying himself (he'd much rather just let his rider do it!). but with this technique, it's much harder for him to "fake" being round. I don't know why. he will try to throw his outside shoulder out, but all it takes is a nudge from my outside leg to correct it. In general, using this technique, he's much more responsive to my leg and seat, and something that used to be a struggle for the whole lesson (keeping him on the bit), has now almost become a non-issue for us. It's almost like he's happy that I've found a way to take control of the situation, even though he doesn't like the idea of actually having to work!

The others here who ride/show/train dressage are having good luck with it too. It seems to work just as well for a young, "still in training" horse as it does for the "done dressage for ages" schoolmaster.

I'd like to get opinions on this. Has anyone else done this or heard of it? Is there a book or specific trainer that this technique originated from? My instructor would go to a place in the Chicago area with her horse for training, and then come back and teach us what she learned, so I know she got it from a higher level instructor (not just from a book or something). Does this totally clash with all of the EE and Natural Horsemanship ideals? I'm well aware that, just because it came from a well-known trainer, doesn't mean it's right.

I hope I've explained it well enough. Please let me know if I've just managed to confuse everyone!

IrisSilverMoon
8th Nov 2002, 02:59 PM
A better way of explaining the suppling would be jiggling or tickling the insidee rein a bit. It tickles the inside of the horses mouth a little bit, and he'll want jto bend to the inside and tuck his nose...:) we just call it tucking the nose or placing.

for the next method...

DOn't pull back...just move your hands outward and keep your elbows glued to your sides.

It widens the bit and puts pressure on the horses mouth if he tries to hold his head in anyway but a correct positions. An important thing to remember is that once a horse gives and relaxes you should return to a normal postition immediately so he knows it's right. Otherwise you're just holding him in that position and it'll be uncomfortable for him...:) Once the horse understands what you want you'll be able to move on to your "suppling" :)

good luck!

Tina J
8th Nov 2002, 03:05 PM
Fascinating. All I can think is that the little tugs (you see it a lot in the UK as well) allow some riders to hang on by their hands. With the technique as you describe it, I think the rider would have to balance a lot more on their seat and couldn't hang on to the horse's mouths. I never have liked this business of playing with horse's mouths to get them to drop their noses - I've always thought that encourages them to pull themselves along by their front ends, rather than getting the rider to think about what they need to do to encourage the horse to engage its back end. If this technique is encouraging better balance in riders it sounds great to me.

Have fun.

snailspace
9th Nov 2002, 08:05 PM
Yes, IrisSilverMoon, it is more like just holding your hands steady with even pressure on the reins, rather than actually pulling. I guess I couldn't find the right way to explain it! And that makes sense, about the widening the bit putting pressure on the mouth. Thanks!

I hadn't thought of it before, but this is my first instance of being involved with the training of a horse. It's usually ME getting the training!

I was taught that using the bit was more of a "cue" to the horse, along with a bit of leg, that "ok, I want you to carry yourself now", rather than a way of physically making him do it. Kinda like how the inside leg forward tells him it's time to canter, even though you're not physically making him. I think where people go wrong is when they're taught that a horse is round when they tuck their nose and arch their neck a little. You have to feel them engage their hindquarters and lift their back - the head position is actually the last thing you should be worrying about.

Anyway, I do find myself more balanced, because your hands have to be kept fairly still for this technique to work, so I'm thinking about my seat/legs alot more.

angel
12th Nov 2002, 08:20 PM
years ago we did that i had forgotten and it used to work as well, i will give it a try, again

Tootsie4U
12th Nov 2002, 08:22 PM
Ive heard its a bad thing - the reaction from see-sawing is a relase to pain and it doesnt really help the horse. I just teaches him to back from the discomfort??

Pardon me if Im confused

angel
12th Nov 2002, 08:27 PM
i dont think its see sawing we never did that just held the contact away from the neck and sometimes lower than normal but the horse must still step under and not leave his legs trailing behind him.
see sawing is a definate no no

IrisSilverMoon
12th Nov 2002, 09:31 PM
it's not see sawing...you'r just tickling the inside rein a little to get bend and to get the horses nose tucked. Your arms should never go back and forth, only out if anything.

vixen
9th Dec 2002, 08:11 PM
Wow, this sounds like a good one, I'm definitely going to try it. I'd always been taught the "left right left" technique - my instructor describes it as "squeezing" the rein (the action of tightening the fist gives the rein a slight motion but doesn't yank the mouth), but I'm not getting great results with my current mount... the squeezing is starting to turn into yanking, which I HATE.

I love this BB for learning all this new stuff!

* Groomette *
10th Dec 2002, 02:18 AM
That is how I've always been taught to get a horse round. Diagonal pairs is what this basically is right? Fingers just close on the inside, then release (not totally, or else you'll drop him eek) and then on the outside. With the horse I used to ride though would fake yeild with this, mainly because she was never cut out to be a dressage horse and would think of any way to get out of doing work. Hehe silly girl. With the schoolmaster I ride now, its the same thing but after the outside rein I have to back it up with some outside leg before suppling on the inside rein again. This makes him into a better frame compared to no leg to assist rounding. Leg assist is quite a bit compared to waht I'm used to..before it was sort of a subconcious thing I did, lightly outside leg. Now its more of a think thing since I'm just new with this boi.

Interesting to hear that you are using both reins to round though..I see what you mean by moving your hands outwards. By doing this you create a different kind of pressure that many horses seem to respond to at a faster pace in my experience. With that mare I always had to widen my hand base in order to get her to round, but even then I usually got a fake. Hmm..I'll try this rounding with using two hands at the same time, but I'm not sure about it. From what I'm understanding is that one leg (at least) is not going to be in the proper placement for him to collect. Hmm..I'd still like to give it a try! Thanks for the walk through! I'll let ya know what ol' Sammie does!

-Groomie

snailspace
10th Dec 2002, 02:29 PM
Hi, Vixen and groomette!

If you're going to try this with your horses, be warned! It takes a while before they stop going backwards:) I can't tell you how many "laps" around the arena we did. . .backing up (which is the biggest dressage no-no:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I thought I'd give you the tips that my instructor gave me:

*Stick with one method. My instructor committed herself to using ONLY this method with her horse for several months, even when she was frustrated by her lack of progress. I thought this was very brave of her, because she was right in the middle of show season. They ended up doing very well!! If your horse is ridden by others, you'll need to all agree on trying this.

*Until your horse understands what you are asking, do not, under any circumstances, ask him to be round AND go forward. This is why you end up circling the arena in reverse! As soon as he comes round at a stand still just a little, you soften, and praise like you've never praised before:) THEN, ask for a few steps of walk.

*There is absolutely no suppling (or see-sawing, or whatever you want to call it) involved here. Even once he's round and forward, you remind him to stay round by moving your hands apart slightly, not by suppling.


It's been 6 months or so since we started this, and most of the horses that are regularly ridden are doing great with it now. Once you get through the "I DO NOT understand what you want" stage, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much easier everything else becomes.

Good luck and let me know how it goes! I'm really interested to hear how this works for others.

vixen
10th Dec 2002, 05:47 PM
Thanks for the additional tips, it's nice to know what your experience was and what pitfalls to avoid (I would have tried the hands and tried to go forward all at the same time).

I am now really eager to try this one.... am not getting out to the barn until Thursday so must wait, sigh.