Rollkur-Help

[lorna01]

I have been riding my hunter today and Im at my witts end and need some advice-

A year and hlf ago a woman started riding my hunter for me, she was a beginner and could not ride very well but she was willing to learn.

She fell pregnant after a few months of riding and because I couldnt ride due to work commitments we decided to send him away for some work so that once she had the baby she could return to riding easily.

Now I have had a few arguments with the woman he was sent away to and found out that she is in to "Modern Dressage". (I am work to classical principles) There are a lot of issues with this womans training that I was not impressed with. (she sold her self very well to us when decided to send him there-don't trust anyone)

Since he has come back he has gone round with his chin tucked into his chest as if he has had rollkur training. This has really upset me and I totally upset me but more important than that has trained my horse wrong and is worrying me because of all of the problems that come with it.

I try to work him long and low, but as soon he is working correctly he drops back into his chest. To get his head up I give him all the reins to encourage him to stretch forward again, but it doesnt work. I have also tried raising my hands to get his head back up and this does, but again drops back into his chest.

Has anyone else had a problem with retraining a horse that has had rollkur training?? And how did you get around the problems???

I dont know how to get around it.

Any help or ideas I could try would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[Palomino Mare]

i'm in the same boat as you!!

my horses head was never tied down (as far as i know) but shes soft enough that a rider could of held her in easily.

she came back from loan with a bull dog of a neck that even the vet commented on!

shes been off work for the last six months for various reasons - muscles were incorrect, bad back due to saddle problems, lack of saddle etc.

she's back to square one condition wise and the bad muscle has gone but i do think she will go into this postion when asked for an outline.

my best advice is to do loads of free schooling, get him stretching out and just moving freely. then get him going free over poles - see how he is in a chambon maybe to get his head long and low.

also i would hack and just forget about collecting him for a good while, shame however as this will definately knock your progress before he was sent away.

some people eh:rolleyes:

[lorna01]

I wont use a chambon-I dont believe in usuing poll pressure-it creates a faulse out line as with rollkur so it defeats the purpose from my experience.

To lunge I use loose side reins from between their front legs to encourage stretching long and low but not tucking under-if they are used at the right length the horse holds it head in the right position with no contact-I also use a bndage around their quarters to encourage the hind end under.

He is absolutly fine without a rider, ground schooling and lunging are perfect but as soon as he has a rider on his back he changes.

I just dont know what to do anymore.

[JamesJackson]

Have you tried lots of work in walk, with absolutely no rein contact at all? Ignore if he tries to tuck in, and give him as long as it takes. If he doesn't stretch down / out as much as he can (doesn't really matter *what* shape he makes as long as it's not drawn in horribleness), you can introduce some gentle flections with contact from one rein only, followed by again completely giving the reins away.

That's just a start anyway... There are various things you can do but NONE should involve 'gadgets' of any description given how it sounds he's been ridden (or in general, actually, but that's another discussion).

[lorna01]

Have you tried lots of work in walk, with absolutely no rein contact at all? Ignore if he tries to tuck in, and give him as long as it takes. If he doesn't stretch down / out as much as he can (doesn't really matter *what* shape he makes as long as it's not drawn in horribleness), you can introduce some gentle flections with contact from one rein only, followed by again completely giving the reins away.

That's just a start anyway... There are various things you can do but NONE should involve 'gadgets' of any description given how it sounds he's been ridden (or in general, actually, but that's another discussion).

Totally agree with gadgets-only believe in side reins and a bandage around their quarters.

I do what you said above,
Ill give you a run down on our schooling sessions- maybe this will help-

1. Tacked up, with saddle on first (I believe this helps to warm up their backs) bandage up, bridle on.

2. Walk out of the yard to the mounting block.

3. Mount, walk into the arena on buckle end, (if hes tense or excited a little shorter but still lose) Make sure my position is good and central.

4. 45 x 45m school, Circle the whole school 3-4 times on each rein while he stretches out) Absolutly no problems here

5. Spiral down to 25m circles 2 times each rein. Again no problems.

6. Gather a little contact, Circle 20m, 4 times around the 45m circle, on each rein.

8. Circle a few 15 m circles depending on how lose he feels.

9. Trot out on a lose rein 45m circle, as above in trot.

10. First stage of warm up complete

11. Gather up into a soft contact, walk 20m Circle, circle in 10m, then 20m circle again, each rein, a few times, (problems begin to occur, he will slightly drop behind the contact, and I mean by about an inch, not much to write home about)

12. Trot out with soft contact, use seat to control the pace so as not to touch the reins (correct any way but even more important) Star-gazes for a while then evens him self out so as just infront of the vertical, (perfect, but not for long)

13. Begin to spiral in and ask for slightly more bend. 45m, 40m, 35m, 30m then we get Real problems (he will drop right behind the bit, into his chest, I will give the reins as far forward as I can and he stretches down to the floor, he raises his head up again, then does the same routine again, burries his head, down to the floor and up again.

13.b. Have tried lifting my hands gently to raise his head up, this works, but as soon as he has done 2 or 3 strides he burries his head again (when I raise my hands my contact is still very soft, would never do anything to hurt him)

14. Try to push him out on the larger circles again to encourage him to move forward and not drop behind. No joy, he moves forward lovely, swinging from behind but still burries his head.

15. After about 45 mins of this over and over I give up and cool down, I am feeling depressed as it was me who has sent the horse to this woman trusting her and ended up with a horse working in the exact oposit to what I believe in. Cool down in walk with circle as for warming up and then buckle end to finish.

16. Dismount, undo noseband and curb chain, losen girth. Walk around the arena twice on each rein to allow him to stretch without me on his back.

Now, when the other woman rides him, he takes the ****, star gazes and drops his shoulder etc. (She doesnt ride correctly so he gets away with it-very long story and sick of teaching her the same thing over and over)

He is ridden in a rugby pelham (going to buy him a show pelham as these are much better for communication) Cavesson noseband. Was ridden in KK training baulcher but he doesnt like it and sticks his tongue over it (tried to rectify this with a drop nose band but he objected to getting his bridle on and done up when it was introduced so that was scrapped.)

Im STUCK. Never encountered this before, no matter how I try he goes back to burrying his head. Canter is forward going, upward, burries his head if you touch the reins, star gazes if you dont.

Before he went away he was fine, comming along really well in his training.

Its almost as if he is scared to raise his head???


Im really sorry for the length of this but I thought it might help if you knew what the schooling entailed.

Any help, PLEASE!!

[coss]

maybe take away the bit with a curb action - go into a snaffle of some sort, maybe a fulmer, hanging cheek or similar so no curb action (even if you only have a soft contact anyway)
when he goes deep, don't lift your hands - i used to ride a horse who would overbend (but nowhere near the extent your horse does and it wasn't because he was pulled that way, he just seemed to like to carry himself that way :rolleyes: ) and lifting the hands would make him overbend more, lower your hands and slightly give forwards (maybe go slightly out with the hands) and that may (or may not) encourage long and low. you don't want to be riding round with your hands on your thighs constantly but as a temporary thing it may help (though hands on thighs is an exaggeration, thats for height and width but your hands should be forwards), when he goes down give a bigger than normal ask with your leg for him to go forwards (along with the allowing of the contact).
i would also try a lot of hacking maybe, gradually picking up the reins but not enough to get the chin to chest. he needs to learn to accept a contact again by the sounds of it... i hope that gives you some ideas to try and help - such a shame - good luck

[lorna01]

Have tried the low hands, it makes him worse. When I say lifting my hands I move them forward and higher so that there is no rein contact but he can feel the reins move higher and this does work better but only for a few strides further than lowering them.

Hacking-he he, he acts up so much, drops behind the bit whilst throwing his head around, jumping about etc...doesnt get us anywhere, other than the acting up (not all of the time but most of the time,) he is still the same. It doesnt matter where we are or what we are doing.

The bit-tried those types of bit-he doesnt like them at all and goes at his best in the pelham. he is a lot worse in the other types of bit.

I have tried all of the above with no joy, but thanks for your advice all the same. Maybe just persistance we will get there in the end. (Although its been over a year now with no luck)

[Skippys Mum]

Sorry, I'm not going to be a lot of help here. When I bought Skippy he had been backed with draw reins. Under any circumstances, he would tuck his nose into his chest. I had major, lifelong problems with him carting me as he could just drop down and I had no control whatsoever.

I could not ride him in a pelham as it made the whole thing worse. With the curb action and poll pressure he would instantly drop his nose into his chest with barely any rein contact.

I finally had a bit of success with a waterford snaffle and a myler high ported bit. I did find he would get fly to bits so ended up with a selection which I rotated to keep him off guard.

I bought him as a 4 year old and had him till he died at 18 and it never really went away. I just had to work round it.

[xloopylozzax]

if you are doing dressage, i thought pelhams werent allowed anyway :confused:
perhaps changing the bit, would be useful because teh pelham encourages exactly what you dont want in this circumstamce.
good luck anyway, and hope you can fix the problem

[Yann]

He is ridden in a rugby pelham

I think that will be a big part of your problem too, you need to find something that doesn't have any poll and curb action. My guess would be that he's been ridden in a heavy handed fashion on the curb so now think's that's what's expected of him, rather than being 'rollkured' as such.

[lorna01]

Like I said before he is a lot worst in a snaffle of any sort.

He is sooooo much better in his pelham, he is softer and less likely to drop behind the bit.

Pelhams are designed to act in that way, they are a smaller copy of a double bridle (which i would ride in if he didnt have such a fleshy mouth) They are for refinement not for making a horses head come down (they are if you use them incorrectly)

Snaffles make him worse, sticks his tongue over, tosses his head and grinds his chin right into his chest. (even worse with a drop nose band)

I have tried for 4 months in a snaffle for the same reasons as you have put with no joy, put in his pelham last week and he is much better.

He wasnt ridden in a curb bit when he was away, he was ridden in a KK baulscher.

Rollkur is not just about having their heads strapped down its also about riding them in a tight contact (gags has the sort of action)

I think I will just keep trying with what I am doing, If you have any ideas for exercises maybe, then please do help, his bit though is not the problem, he is worse in a snaffle.

P.S. Im not doing dressage, Im just trying to school him back to the way he was before he went away so I can attempt some showing with him next year.

[Lgd]

Bitting - is the pelham a half moon, ported or jointed mouthpiece? The curb will not help the curling issue and may make it worse. Look for a snaffle that matches the mouthpiece you are using. Initial thoughts are half moon unjointed snaffle, a magic bit (basically an unjointed, ported snaffle) or a JP snaffle (single jointed or double jointed snaffle with curved arms to eliminate the nutcracker action). Given the curling issues I would avoid anything with poll action such as the hanging cheek snaffles.

Curling - if he's curling away from the bit he is not in front of the leg and is avoiding making a connection from the hind-leg through the back to the hand. Assuming back/teeth etc have been checked and found OK - Most evasions of contact start from the hind leg. A horse can be apparently going forward but be happily behind the leg with their backside in the next county. You need to re-establish real forwardness to the aids so the horse is thinking about going forward to the contact.

How to get this: teach him to be quicker to the aid by walking to the start of a long side in the arena and then ask the horse to 'GO NOW' as if you were going at the start of a race. Forget the outline and give the contact away. If he ignores the first aid, use a pony club welly aid - legs off and one good slap with the calves onto his sides. Some riders will click as they do it as you can then use that to get the horse to go without a sharp aid (Carl Hester does it like that). The forward response needs to be immediate. Quietly bring the horse back trying to keep any rein aids light. You may need to do it a few times for him to get the message that you are not going to stop/block the forward impulsion with the hand. They usually find it quite good fun and you can tone the leg aid down once they get the message.

Once you have the forward off the leg re-established the curling should stop or become considerably less. You may need to do a reminder 'GO' if he starts to curl again.

[Crystal Fire]

My brain isn't working... what is the name of the lady who is into "natural" dressage? Who keeps her horses living out and barefoot? Aaargh! I remember her riding a horse called Borange at the Natural Horse Gathering some time back, and explaining how he had come to her in a similar state to your horse. If someone can remember her name, I think she would be happy to talk to you about it.

[lorna01]

Bitting - is the pelham a half moon, ported or jointed mouthpiece? The curb will not help the curling issue and may make it worse. Look for a snaffle that matches the mouthpiece you are using. Initial thoughts are half moon unjointed snaffle, a magic bit (basically an unjointed, ported snaffle) or a JP snaffle (single jointed or double jointed snaffle with curved arms to eliminate the nutcracker action). Given the curling issues I would avoid anything with poll action such as the hanging cheek snaffles.

Curling - if he's curling away from the bit he is not in front of the leg and is avoiding making a connection from the hind-leg through the back to the hand. Assuming back/teeth etc have been checked and found OK - Most evasions of contact start from the hind leg. A horse can be apparently going forward but be happily behind the leg with their backside in the next county. You need to re-establish real forwardness to the aids so the horse is thinking about going forward to the contact.

How to get this: teach him to be quicker to the aid by walking to the start of a long side in the arena and then ask the horse to 'GO NOW' as if you were going at the start of a race. Forget the outline and give the contact away. If he ignores the first aid, use a pony club welly aid - legs off and one good slap with the calves onto his sides. Some riders will click as they do it as you can then use that to get the horse to go without a sharp aid (Carl Hester does it like that). The forward response needs to be immediate. Quietly bring the horse back trying to keep any rein aids light. You may need to do it a few times for him to get the message that you are not going to stop/block the forward impulsion with the hand. They usually find it quite good fun and you can tone the leg aid down once they get the message.

Once you have the forward off the leg re-established the curling should stop or become considerably less. You may need to do a reminder 'GO' if he starts to curl again.

Ah ha, now, when I tried that last week it actually made him worse. He moves off my leg any way so no need to pony club slap. But he seemed to go inside him self when I did it. Explain that one??? Cos I thought that would work to but it had the exact opposit effect. (weird animals)

Bitting- like I said have tried him in 5 snaffles, a baulscher, a mullen mouth eggbutt, a noramel lose ring, a french ling and a training lozenge. All he was worse in, His pelham is a mullen mouth and like I said he isnt as bad in this. Seriously it doesnt have the same effect if it is used properly. Honest, Im not lying, Snaffles are a no. Gags dont go near my horses and the pelham works well. Although I had forgotton about the "magic" snaffle and will be looking for one of those to try.

So, problem is, where to go from here, I know a snaffle should be better but it really isnt, tried for ages and never got me any where. Put his pelham in and he was a lot better. His back/teeth are fine-just been checked (although he has had a bout of sinisitis recently, but the problem was there before this too, so I KNOW it isnt that, although I know it wont help with the situation) saddle fits perfect. I am doing my very best to ride him corrctly. The next step just aint getting any closer:(

[laura jeanne]

My lesson horse was either carrying his head too high or tucking it under - both to avoid contact. We tried various ways to get him to stretch forward and down into the bridle. Here's what seems to work best with him.

We hold the reins in one hand, palm up, and comb the reins. At the start of each stroke, pull up slightly, then towards your stomach and he pulls away down and forward. The tricky part (which I am not good at) is keeping a steady rhythm going. As he pulls forward and down, you can lighten the contact a bit. We do this at the walk and trot and he has gotten a lot better. After he has gone like this for a while, we gradually gather up the reins and he usually goes nicely on the bit.

[Lgd]

Do you have someone you can get a decent lesson with?

I can highly recommend Wendy Howes who is based near Stocksfield. She is a beautiful rider, very tactful with her ponies - she competes a pure Connie at advanced medium level and took her last pony to Inter I level - and an excellent trainer. She has taught a friend of mine for some years and J's horse is a very hot and sensitive chap who requires careful handling.

Her details are public domain as they are on the BD trainer list

3 low bank cottages
Bywell
Stocksfield
NE43 7AF
Northumberland

Wendy is willing to travel 50 miles.

Contact details
Telephone: 01661 844045
Mobile: 07814 973637
Email: info@wendyhowes.co.uk

this is her website

http://www.wendyhowes.co.uk/

[lorna01]

Do you have someone you can get a decent lesson with?

I can highly recommend Wendy Howes who is based near Stocksfield. She is a beautiful rider, very tactful with her ponies - she competes a pure Connie at advanced medium level and took her last pony to Inter I level - and an excellent trainer. She has taught a friend of mine for some years and J's horse is a very hot and sensitive chap who requires careful handling.

Her details are public domain as they are on the BD trainer list

3 low bank cottages
Bywell
Stocksfield
NE43 7AF
Northumberland

Wendy is willing to travel 50 miles.

Contact details
Telephone: 01661 844045
Mobile: 07814 973637
Email: info@wendyhowes.co.uk

this is her website

http://www.wendyhowes.co.uk/

Will definately consider it, at the moment I cant afford it (just lost my job and flat, mum has cancer, life is hell) so I will have to wait untill I get a job. But will definately give her a go, heard very good things about her.

My instructor is very good and comes over from france but I havent had a lesson for a very long time. (she is having some personal problems and cant get over at the moment)

Thankyou X

[mogadoga]

Please no one attack me for this, but id be tempted to give him time off to get out of a ridden frame of mind. And hopefully have a bit of a cleaner slate once you get back on board?

[lorna01]

Please no one attack me for this, but id be tempted to give him time off to get out of a ridden frame of mind. And hopefully have a bit of a cleaner slate once you get back on board?

Had that idea on giddyup, only problem is he is over weight and i dont want to risk the dreaded "L" word. he is also on loan to someone and I need to discuss it with her,+ he had about 6 weeks of being ridden maybe once a week, if that, it didnt seem to change much. (I'm just too scared of letting him get fat, lunging doesnt keep as much weight off as riding does unfortunately)

He was better today and im hoping that with persistance its going to keep getting better.

Do you have any "magic" snaffles in at the mo? 5 and 3/4"?? Would like to try one of these to see if it may make another difference?

[JOJOBA]

Ive had a horse with this problem and it was very difficult to sort out.

Purely from my own experiences Id be tempted to go with Mogadoga - in the end the only way we could make an improvement in mine was to let him drop off ALL his muscle, then start again from scratch. I also had LOTS of physiotherapy work done on him as he'd been draw reined a lot (physio thinks) and it had done some damage, explaining his ridden 'issues'). Unfortunately his temperament was such that I couldnt ride him so I sent him away to be built back up with a professional rider before eventually being sold on.
Made a good difference in the end though (see attachment). The original position was his 'safe' position - if in doubt, tuck head in and back off and all will be okay! Though he still isnt ideal and is still prone to overbending it is nothing like as bad as it was.

I really feel your frustration though - sometimes no amount of loose rein and pushing forwards has any effect and it's very dismaying!

xxx

[BIrish]

Pelhams are designed to act in that way, they are a smaller copy of a double bridle (which i would ride in if he didnt have such a fleshy mouth) They are for refinement not for making a horses head come down (they are if you use them incorrectly)
.

With respect - this is wrong.

Pelhams have no where near the refinement of a "simple" bit from either a snaffle or weymouth family (i.e a double).. The bradoon and weymouth should be used for totally separate results although they, through conjunction, work with each other. You would perhaps have better results with a simple bit than a hybrid. And I would avoid anything with poll action (hanging cheeks) gag or curb action. A bit the horse would *like* to hold is a main point.

Pelhams are a hybrid evolved from a true double and because of this will not give you the refinement you speak of - in simpler terms

a pelham = speaking to some on on a mobile with 3 bars of signal - you can hear what they are saying but sometimes you are straining to hear/able to decifer the conversation by hearing "some" words..

a double = full signal in Dolby surround sound with crystal clarity to the point you can hear precise inflections in voice and tone. :).

A fleshy mouth is no problem for a double - you just need to find the right one. When he is ready I would suggest one with a very thin bradoon (and/or a ported one) and a similar weymouth.

True, some horses like and go well in them but they are unlikely to help a horse with this problem.. I would try some more bits.. magic bits (and in particular a KK Training bit) are successful and I have had great success re-teaching overbent horses (drawreinitis in their cases)with a leather bit and a Waterford (only as strong as the hands holding it) to encourage curled horses to enjoy contact again.

LQD has a fab plan for true forwardness - I use that technique too (called Spencer-ing after Spencer Wilton!) with my slightly lazy 6yo. Although your horse is going when you say go with the leg, to go curled so far in he is can't be properly "forward". I would try it anyway.

Very frustrating situation - good luck.

[Iron Maiden]

Might it be worth trying him bitless - just a punt to see if it helps? Something like a Dr Cook rather than a hackamore that creates significant leverage & poll pressure. It sounds like you've tried a wide selection of bits so perhaps no bit might change the rules enough to snap him out of this loop he seems to have got himself into. Just a thought!

[lorna01]

Might it be worth trying him bitless - just a punt to see if it helps? Something like a Dr Cook rather than a hackamore that creates significant leverage & poll pressure. It sounds like you've tried a wide selection of bits so perhaps no bit might change the rules enough to snap him out of this loop he seems to have got himself into. Just a thought!

I think this is a good idea, will give it a go this after noon-luckily got a dr cook lying in my tack room gathering dust.:rolleyes:

BIrish-from my experience with bitting numerous horses I have found that pelhams are a close link to a double, it may not be quite as refined BUT you can still ride with a much softer hand and get a better response! A snaffle requires a tad too much contact thaan what I prefer and my horses. I dont think that I am wrong with this.

I understand the idea of the mobile signal but from my experience a snaffle is one bar on mute.

Of course a double bridle can be too much in a fleshy mouth! Tried it-waste of money, horse hated it, his tonge is too big for 2 bits-look at it like this, my riding boots fit me well with a sock on, but if I put two socks on then it isnt as comfy is it? :confused:so of course two bits are a problem in some fleshy mouths.

And if you would read my previous posts you will see that he does go better in his pelham and does help in this situation! I have tried 5 different snaffles (including a KK training lozenge) this made him WORSE. This is the point I am trying to make, he is not working to theories-I have tried them, my last resort was to ask for help on here from anyone who had a similar problem! Bitting hasnt really helped other than putting his rugby pelham in. I needed soma advice on maybe exercises, hand positions anything else.

I am going to source a magic snaffle and give it a go, to see if maybe this will help. Waterfords? Im stuck between a rock and a hard place with these. Maybe as a last resort (especialy as his other rider isnt very stable with her hands, it really wont help) But for now he is best in his pelham.

Every horse is different and this one is obviously really different, as the most obvious theories dont work, they should but they dont.

I know my horse, I have had him for over 7 years and I know when he is happier, right now the pelham is helping.

I am asking for help-dont tell me Im wrong for his pelham, the evidence is obvious that Im not-please advise on anything else or on a bit other than a kk training bit, KK baulscher with training lozenge, mullen mouth egg but, a lose ring or a french link, these aint making any difference. Year and a half Ive been trying...Im fed up with trying the obvious options and getting no where.

[Yann]

My brain isn't working... what is the name of the lady who is into "natural" dressage? Who keeps her horses living out and barefoot? Aaargh! I remember her riding a horse called Borange at the Natural Horse Gathering some time back, and explaining how he had come to her in a similar state to your horse. If someone can remember her name, I think she would be happy to talk to you about it.

Lucinda McAlpine isn't it?

[BIrish]

Alright - no need to snap .. :eek::):confused:


you can still ride with a much softer hand and get a better response!

That'd be the curb action.

A snaffle requires a tad too much contact thaan what I prefer and my horses.

Ok. IMO lighteness/softness shouldn't depend strength of bit but I understand that you prefer a curb action.

I understand the idea of the mobile signal but from my experience a snaffle is one bar on mute.

Ok. :) Horses (especially those who need a bit of extra help understanding) just seem to go better on the flat for me with a "simple" member of whatever bit tree as opposed to hybrids that have a mixed action. This doesn't mean I don't rate hybrids - one of my favourite bits is a Pessoa Sweet iron gag!

Of course a double bridle can be too much in a fleshy mouth! Tried it-waste of money, horse hated it, his tonge is too big for 2 bits-look at it like this, my riding boots fit me well with a sock on, but if I put two socks on then it isnt as comfy is it? :confused:so of course two bits are a problem in some fleshy mouths.

Are you aware of the huge range of bradoons & weymouths available to mix and match now ? TheG had a tiny TB mouth that was waaay full of flesh.It took me 8 months to find the right double combination. Very thin single jointed bradoon and an equally thin weymouth with a high wide port with a roller on the arch ( to allow tongue movement) and a sliding post. I tried about 20 different variations until he was happy.

You tried one. Then abandoned it and stereotyped doubles. 2 ordinary socks might be uncomfortable instead of one in your boot but 2 thin silk socks would be comfortable (and warm!) :)

And if you would read my previous posts you will see that he does go better in his pelham and does help in this situation! I have tried 5 different snaffles (including a KK training lozenge) this made him WORSE.

I dindn't suggest anymore snaffles (jointed) - just ,as someone else did and you are going to try :confused:, a Magic bit and a KK Training (this is a straight bar bit with a low port similar to the mouthpeice of many pelhams) :)

Have a look here http://www.divoza.co.uk/productimages/thumb/Special%20bits/14307.jpg

My apologies if I hadn't read properly and have tried one of these.

This is the point I am trying to make, he is not working to theories-I have tried them, my last resort was to ask for help on here from anyone who had a similar problem! Bitting hasnt really helped other than putting his rugby pelham in. I needed soma advice on maybe exercises, hand positions anything else.

Hand position is not going to do anything if horse is afraid to accept a proper contact. Sorry.


I know my horse, I have had him for over 7 years and I know when he is happier, right now the pelham is helping.

Ok. Great :) so he's improving then ?


No offense meant OP - was only trying to help. Sorry.

[lorna01]

Alright - no need to snap .. :eek::):confused:



That'd be the curb action.



Ok. IMO lighteness/softness shouldn't depend strength of bit but I understand that you prefer a curb action.



Ok. :) Horses (especially those who need a bit of extra help understanding) just seem to go better on the flat for me with a "simple" member of whatever bit tree as opposed to hybrids that have a mixed action. This doesn't mean I don't rate hybrids - one of my favourite bits is a Pessoa Sweet iron gag!



Are you aware of the huge range of bradoons & weymouths available to mix and match now ? TheG had a tiny TB mouth that was waaay full of flesh.It took me 8 months to find the right double combination. Very thin single jointed bradoon and an equally thin weymouth with a high wide port with a roller on the arch ( to allow tongue movement) and a sliding post. I tried about 20 different variations until he was happy.

You tried one. Then abandoned it and stereotyped doubles. 2 ordinary socks might be uncomfortable instead of one in your boot but 2 thin silk socks would be comfortable (and warm!) :)



I dindn't suggest anymore snaffles (jointed) - just ,as someone else did and you are going to try :confused:, a Magic bit and a KK Training (this is a straight bar bit with a low port similar to the mouthpeice of many pelhams) :)

Have a look here http://www.divoza.co.uk/productimages/thumb/Special%20bits/14307.jpg

My apologies if I hadn't read properly and have tried one of these.



Hand position is not going to do anything if horse is afraid to accept a proper contact. Sorry.



Ok. Great :) so he's improving then ?


No offense meant OP - was only trying to help. Sorry.

I wasnt snapping I was trying to phrase what I wanted to say carefully-please dont take it like that.

Curb action? no, if you use a pelham carefully the curb doesnt necessarily come into action.

I didnt stereo type double bridles. I was recommended what type to use with a fleshy mouth by a "bitting specialist" and this is what I disgaurded! I would love to be able to use one.

The KK training bit I used was a lozenge traing bit suposed to be soft. Magic bits arent that different to the mullen mouth i use but i am hoping it will make a little difference.

Hand position-this is exactly what I want to know more about. Im fed up, am at one of the lowest points in my life and just wanted to try and fix my horse as best I could with some advice. I have tried bit changes and have found the best I can at the moment. What else can I try and do, this is all I wanted to know.

the poll action is not effecting him, I have soft hands and the way I am riding the curb isnt coming into action.

Please just forget about this thread, I dont think anyone can help with the problems. If i find a better way Ill post it for anyone else who has a problem

[xloopylozzax]

<edited>

Curb action? no, if you use a pelham carefully the curb doesnt necessarily come into action.

<edited>

i thought this was the 'problem' with pelhams, that because it is the same bit, the action is diffused down both reins, unless you dont have a rein on the bottom of the pelham (i think joyscarer does this???)
and even then, there is still action on the curb when you use the 'snaffle' rein.

i might be wrong, but this is my understanding of a pelham.
(yes i do ride my horses in them, nothing wrong with them, but they can hinder sometimes on horses that tend to overbend, like my gelding so we swap between a snaffle and pelham to keep him focused- hopefully we will get him a double but at the moment he is settled just swapping them occasionally)

[wundahoss]

He is absolutly fine without a rider, ground schooling and lunging are perfect but as soon as he has a rider on his back he changes.
I would be doing lots of 'passenger lessons', either on the lunge with a helper, or off. You hold the reins at the buckle and choose the gait, but allow him to choose the speed(within gait) and direction. Only pick up the reins if he gets too fast and breaks gait. Once he comes back down to the desired gait, drop the reins to the buckle again. This is a great exercise for teaching self carriage to the horse and a good seat to the rider too.

Added to this, I would reinforce every instance of him relaxing his neck. Preferrably positively, with treats or such, as well as negatively, with removal of pressure.

[prettybluepony]

Have you had a chiropractor out. If not I would get one out ASAP if he was ridden rollkur or has been like this for an extended period of time then there may be pain in his spine somewhere now and he's just trying to avoid it, or go in the way the muscles have developed.

By what I read you've said he's got a thick fleshy mouth. I'd try him in a french link, a thin one, with some copper in it.

I'm 15 years old (you may think this is young, but I've been riding for ten years, and riding breakers and youngsters for 5 of those, training and breaking on my own without being really told what to do for four.) and doubt I'll touch a pelham again.

Any bit I use I try out on me first. Take your bridle over you shoulder, bit in the crook of your elbow, and put your hand on your shoulder. Do the curb up so it "fits" like on a horse. Then let a friend pull the bottom rein. Gently or not, it makes me want to tuck my elbow right in and get away from that horrid curb. I Don't mind doubles when they are used right, dutch gags are alright on a really bad puller, but a pelham to me is a last resort. And at my yard we don't use them. My YO has them, but hates them, we're only allowed a dutch gag if the horse is spitefully nuts on the road. I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I think a snaffle or bitless bridle is the way to go.

The bit doesn't effect your contact in my opinion it's how to treat your bit that does, I ride in very lose contact most the time and keep a balanced outline without floppy reins but I'm not "in" any horses mouth unless I have to.

My other suggestion is to school in a large field and then when he begins to get to far in really let him canter, not a nice collected dressage canter but a lets have fun. So he lifts his head up and goes. It will help him relax his back and enjoy being ridden a bit more rather then thinking, "oh dear; schooling, time to tuck up and hope she's not gunna haul me in".

These are just my opinions so please don't get offended by anything here, it's just my experiences.

[lorna01]

The bit doesn't effect your contact in my opinion it's how to treat your bit that does.

Exactly-this is why I find pelhams fine so long as you know how to use them. The horse is fine in the pelham, this is not the cause of the problem-honest. Tried a french link and it made him ten times worse. A frrench link can be very hard on different horses as the plate in the middle can twist and hurt the roof of their mouths-I prefer the idea on a training lozenge, rounded so more comfy for them, no edges to catch-rolls off the tongue (sorry for the pun)

All bitting is controversial and every horse is different. This one is fine in his pelham.

Thanks for the advice everyone, but I think Im just going to have to keep trying what I am doing and see how I get on.

(magic snaffle is coming next week, we'll see if this makes a difference-fingers crossed)

[JamesJackson]

Please just forget about this thread, I dont think anyone can help with the problems.

Yes they can, you just seem to be discounting suggestions. Personally, I hate pelhams as on the whole they do cause horses to tuck themselves in, ridden 'nicely' or not. Also, and the main reason I don't like them (or any un-jointed bit) is that you can not have a flattening effect / distinct communication down either rein. Getting the bit to sit on the lips requires a flattening action (think widening the hand and what it does to a jointed bit), you just don't have that with a pelham. To use your analogy - it's like a crackly amplifier conveying your message.

[katefarmer]

Has anyone else had a problem with retraining a horse that has had rollkur training?? And how did you get around the problems???

I dont know how to get around it.

Any help or ideas I could try would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Yes - I do lots of retraining of rollkur/draw-rein damage - and the big key to it is consistency and patience. It takes a while. The horse has learned that the "safe and comfortable" place is with his nose on his chest - and will try to retreat there at the slightest provokation.

You don't say how old the horse was when it had this "rollkur" training - if it was young (less than 6 or so) there's almost certainly permanent damage in the neck, and you'll never get it quite right again because the vertebrae will have been pulled apart and they don't usually go back. If the horse was older, you might be lucky. Either way, you can get it a lot better - but it will take time and patience.

As you seem very attached to your pelham - stay with that but just use the top rein. The bit won't matter too much, but any poll action (even a little bit) will tend to make him "roll over" and stick his nose on his chest again - so makes the re-training more difficult.

You were on the right lines with giving him a little "bump" on the rein when he goes down there. As you say, he brings his head up - but not for long. Every time he goes down, bump again. You might have to do this 100 times - but eventually he will get he idea that nose-on-chest is not a comfortable place to be, and will look for another answer. To start with - let him have a loose rein in any other head position (even if his nose it up in the air!) and stroke him - so you're making a really clear, black and white distinction between nose-on-chest = uncomfortable, and nose-not-on-chest = comfortable.

For the initial stage - don't think about long and low, or contact or anything -else - there are only the two positions - nose on chest - wrong, and nose anywhere else, right.

Depending on the horse, this can take anything from a few days to a few weeks to establish - but stick at it and be 100% consistent yourself - or as near to 100% as you can get!:D

Once nose-on-chest is no longer a safe retreat - then you can start asking for something else and working towards your goals. Initially, I'd stay with just the top rein (don't give him any reason to go back to the old habit!) and start taking up the rein to a very long contact. Sit up extra straight yourself, and make sure you're centred over the horse and that your seat is light - that is to say there's just a little space between your seat bones and the saddle. You're bum is in contact with the saddle - but the bones are a little lifted away. Now walk on and think about riding the hind legs forwards - after a while he will start to raise his back. As soon as you feel his back come up to your seat, release, relax and pet him. Repeat this until he starts to stretch up to your seat as you lighten it. Again - it will take a while - but avoid any temptation to do anything more with your hands then offer a long, soft contact - and don't worry about where his head is. It's his back that's the issue now.

When this is established, I'd stick with the long contact, and start working on lateral movements. Start with leg yields - then just play around with bending him around your legs and seat bones. If he sticks his nose to his chest at any point - bump it up again - and do it as often as you need to.

When all this is working, and he's really listening to your seat, legs and energy, you will probably find his head has found a pretty good position on its own. You can then start fine tuning this as necessary.

As I said, I don't think they type of bit matters too much - because the whole secret of re-training this problem is in getting out of his mouth and sensitising him to other aids.

Good luck, and I hope this gives you some helpful ideas!

[twinkle11]

well heres my two pennys worth

i think if you continue/want to work him in a pelham maybe just try using the snaffle rein as curb rein isnt going to help!

i have a friesian mare who would happily go around with her head in her chest all day long just to get away from working properly! she does it a lot worse when been out of work (for a number of reasons accident prone horse) but not as much when in reg work as she has muscle strength. as other have said her has built the muscle up there as a memory so this has to be chnaged maybe just give him a week of then go to lunging with nothing and everythime he curls in send him forwards then when he goes normal half halt him and bring him back to his natural tempo (this is going to be a case of yes and no yes and no for quiet some time) you have to be very clear with him on what you want praise him when he is right and send him forward when he is wrong.i would do this just in walk for a few times first just to give him a clear idea of yes and no then work up to trot canter.

you could ither lunge every other day and ride every other or just lunge wouldnt do it everyday (dont do small circles) for a couple of weeks up to you depends what works best on him!
when you do decide toget back on him and he does it i would flex him to inside or outside with inside leg and little niggle on inside rein as soon as he does it as soon as you have flexed him send him forward you have got to be very very black and white on whats right and wrong and its not going to be a quick fix ither its going to take sometime my mare when in consitent work doesnt do it anymore at all she was really bad at it it used to drive me insane this is the only thing that has worked the flexsion and forwardness

i also got told lower hands highter hands stop,drop reins give reins pull ton rein the lot hi her nothing worked apart from this now if she goes to do it i only have to think about niggling that inside rein or give a slight squeeze with it and she come straight back up.remember do NOT pull back keep hands still at all times ,thats all there ment to do anyway seat and legs are for everything else.

and if this dont work maybe a tap on your boot to make a noise aswel as the flexsion if i remember rightly this helped a little at the biggining with mine but remember praise with you voice as soon as she comes up.

oh one other thing i wold most defently get a back lady to look at horse as this training would have not of helped him at all that would be my number one priority

good luck hope this helps kelly

[Lgd]

I will PM you contact details for a lady who does equine sports massage. She looks after all of my competition beasties.

[lorna01]

Thanks everyone, Im trying this sort of thing now-also been jumping the last couple of days o try and change the routine of lunging and schooling, he seems to be a little better over the jumps. I think its like lateral work-making him think about something else.

Id just like to clarify something though- please, I am not attached to a pelham in any way(showing different) I want to make this really clear, he is not happy in any other bit, he goes at his best in his pelham, he doesnt tuck his head in as much and takes the contact forward more which is what Im aiming for. I do find people on hear to be attacking me for this, I find pelhams to be a great toll, but only if a horse thinks so too. I have said about 3 times that he is happier in this bit but people would rather tell me how a pelham works and why the horse will ot go better in one- BUT HE DOES!!!!! Honest, Im not lying, he goes much better!!!!! He was rollkur'd in a KK baulsher with training lozenge-this is his worst bit. I have also tried him in a range of other bits and when I had ran out of bits in the tackroom I thought Id give his pelham a gpo (didnt think it would work because of the poll and curb blah blah blah) but was pleasently surprised that he was BETTER!!!!!

Tried him in a copper lose ring snaffle 3 days a go to jump in and although his ground work isnt as good, he is better when we jump, I think its because he is thinking about somethink else, but then as he gets more tired he starts to burry his head again.

Please-I dont want anyone to tell me how a pelham works-I know how a pelham works, and a snaffle and a straight bar and port etc etc, I just wanted someone who had the same sort of problem to advise on what had happened with them.

Now, Lgd, thankyou, I know of the sports mass. but I prefer to use my physio, she is brilliant. But thank you for your help.

Katefarmer-unfortunatelty it started at a young age for him with a tight chambon but I trined it out of him as much as I could. He went away 18 months ago and is 14 now so it is a bit of an old problem backed up by a new problem if you know what I mean.

Trying loads of different schooling methods but you have to try for atleast 3 weeks to see if they work so its time consuming but the jumping for now is good.

Another problem, I have tried sending him forwards when he tucks in, this makes him tuck up more?????? (this is one of the reasons I posted here because in theory he shouldnt do this, just like a pelham should make him worse???????)

I am not often wrong with a horse but everything I have tried isnt working.

But, like I say, my magic snaffle will be here next week, hopefully this may improve.

[twinkle11]

i like pelhams have seen them work wounder's for lots of horse to be totally honest
(well used in the right hands but thats like any bits ,especially a snaffle!)

i no what you mean about the just sending him forward makes him do it more this is what happened with my mare ,thats why i suggested the flexsion first as this kind of makes it impossible.its got to be quick flexsion/forward, its the only thing that helped mine and i thought i was never going to get her to stop!

edited to add when i say flexsion i dont me actually beinding your horse whole neck head to inside i just me from the poll just a slight inside bend you could even try outside bend aswel!

and lateral work will help him think about other things apart from his head. its just one horrible habit and thats all it is a bad habit that he feels comfortable with. good luck

[Kate F.]

Katefarmer-unfortunatelty it started at a young age for him with a tight chambon but I trined it out of him as much as I could. He went away 18 months ago and is 14 now so it is a bit of an old problem backed up by a new problem if you know what I mean.

Trying loads of different schooling methods but you have to try for atleast 3 weeks to see if they work so its time consuming but the jumping for now is good.

Another problem, I have tried sending him forwards when he tucks in, this makes him tuck up more?????? (this is one of the reasons I posted here because in theory he shouldnt do this, just like a pelham should make him worse???????)

I am not often wrong with a horse but everything I have tried isnt working.

But, like I say, my magic snaffle will be here next week, hopefully this may improve.


Hi Lorna!

I'm not totally surprised that sending him forwards doesn't work - but then, most of the cases I get arrive with me exactly because all the usual treatments haven't worked! :D They could save so much time and money by coming to us in the first place.... but that's another story!! :D When the horse has learned to hold its nose on its chest, it can tank forwards pretty fast at the same time - and the person who stuck its nose to its chest rewarded the whole process. The sending forwards only works with young/novice horses who try dipping behind the vertical to see whether thats the "right answer". The driving forwards says "sorry, no, try again!". If you use it to scare a "habitual diver" up, you just create another stress that will either short term send the head up in a "what the hell???" reaction, then it will go straight back to the nose-on-chest safety blanket, or just stick it further to the chest without the scare reaction.

Personally, I don't think this is a bitting issue. I don't think any bit is going to cure it, and while some could potentially make it worse, there isn't a bit on the planet that's an automatic solution. (If there is, I'd be delighted to hear about it!! :D:D)

As I say, I think the trick is in breaking the problem down into little steps. It's always quickest and easiest to re-train where the behaviour you want is something simple and easy, and what you don't want is specific. So in the first instance it's just nose-on-the-chest vs. nose-not-on-the-chest. That can be established pretty quickly. Then you set up the next stage.

The mistake that is so often made is in trying to substitute one specific behaviour for another - eg "don't put your chin on on your chest, instead I want you to go on the bit". The second part is just too precise and involves too many factors. Just break the whole thing down into very small, very achievable stages, and take them one at a time. The end result will be achieved much more quickly and successfully! :D

[twinkle11]

kate f

spot on with what your saying totally agree

i can never seem to say exsaclty what i want to say when it comes to righting it down!

[Humble]

I note you say he is overweight and you did not want to give him any time off in case of the dreaded L which I persume you mean laminitis. Is there any other factors which could lead you to believe he is IR or a pre cushing horse?. My 12 year old 16.3 cob x TB was a master of going behind the bit with nose to chest, also lots of balking, bucking issues and he had never been ridden in draw reins or rolkur type training but it turned out he was IR and suffering from LGL (low grade laminitis) which wasn't discovered until we went barefoot and then he had a full attack with rotated pedal bones in both front feet. Anyway, 2 years down the line and he is sound again, but this time no chin to chest and instead, he is taking the contact forward. Maybe worth getting your vet to do a blood test and check his insulin levels. Sorry if you have already done this, just trying to help.