At my wits end with my stuborn boy !

[kayleigh26]

I always like to think that its the rider and their methods thats the issue with horses and never totally the horse by i dont know what on earth to do with my boy and i need advice before i burst into tears - yet again- as im at my wits end with how deal with him and help him. But first a quick back ground on us....

Hugo is my horse and 8 year old Tb gelding. He was out of work before i go him for quite a while due to his owners injury and then she became pregnant. He was also out of work as he had an op for kissing spine in his back. He has been vetted and checked before anyone feels this is an issue and is totally healed and should be feeling not pain at all this is been checked several times by 2 or 3 reputable vets. When i bought him (about 10 months ago) i knew he needed some work - but i wanted something i could work with- i just feel i may have got more than i barganed for. He has always not liked to stand at a mounting block - he antispates pain as it was sore to be mounted before his op- and walks off (nothing bad, it must be understood he is not a bad horse just stubborn it seems) So i used to just mount from the ground - he stands happily- but i know this is very bad for his back as he's 16.1hh but having to get a leggy every time i want to ride has become tiresome as i cannot ride if no-one is about ! Anyway he is an angel to ride walk trot but canter -that is another story. He has never worked in an out line the first few months i rode him he began cantering decently ( he rushes, charges and breaks to trot normaly) but the surface at that yard was terrible and he began to be scared to canter due to slipping and i became scared to ride him - so for the majority of the winter im ashamed to say i didnt ride and i feel i knocked both out confidence. Anyway i have moved yard since and now i am begining to get him to lift his back and come into a slight outline by doing pole work etc but canter is worse now that ever. He gets far to excited and rushes into canter bolts for a few strides and then breaks to a wild extended trot. Its horrible and is doing nothing for my confidence and feel like im not gettin anywhere. Ive tried cantering on a circle, asking off the track, only asking for few stride but when even i feel im gettin somewhere i end up not being able to ride for a day or two and then he seems to go back to stage 1 ! Also he's always been wary about being caught. In the winter he always came but doesnt like others handling him other than me. Some times he would refuse to be caught but after following and waiting i could normally get him after 10-15mins. Now as he is living out i feel he is worse than ever. He comes when he wants but if he doesnt he gallops up and down till i have to leave for fear he is going to break his leg ! He wont fall for bribery of food he comes close enough to take the food but the min yu move towards him to attempt to put the collar on hes off like a shot. He was gettin good and then i had to let the vet take his blood test in the field as there was a fear of and out break of strangles and i couldnt take him on the yard. Seems to be a false alarm and its okay now we've been cleared but i cudnt catch him after that - he was worse than ever- after a few hours i had to give up and leave as he was so upset and frustrated then the next two days i got him in okay but tonight he was doing the im not being caught as i dont fancy it nonsense. Im now scared hes learned he doesnt need to come in. My mum thinks that i should give him til the end of the summer and if im not getting anywhere sell him but im far too attached to him and hes the perfect gentle man on the ground , to lead, shoe catch lovely scopey jump aswell but i cant jump untill i have a safe canter ! i want to go out and compete eventually but i dont know if im going to get anywhere with him but he used to hunt and jump before being out of work. I need so much help with all the problems listed any advice would be great. I really want to sort my boy and make him the horse i thought i had bought! (A nice horse that needed abit of work and would end up being able to compete) but im scared im doing it all wrong please help ! Also i would appreciate not being treated like a novice ive been riding for 9 years and have had horses before him he just seems to be testing me.

[Jen_e_Jen]

Oh, don't give up yet! He sounds like he is just as attached to you as you are to him. You haven't described a disagreeable horse, just one w/some negative associations that he has built up until they become as issue. I don't really have any specific advice about mounting, just that we all need to think of ways to teach him that the mounting block doesn't always mean pain. If he's been checked so many times you know his back isn't sore anymore. You sound pretty knowledgable so I am assuming that his teeth are fine and his saddle fits well? Now, there is always the possibility that he figured out that if he acts ouchy he doesn't get ridden and have to work. How long had it been since he'd been ridden when you got him?

[kayleigh26]

Oh god i couldn't tell you. A year at least i would think, and then a few months in the winter while i had him. He's just so frustrating and ive found myself going home in tears on several occasions. He can be one of the most awkward horses ever *rolls eyes*. The most frustrating thing is that after a few days and feeling like im getting somewhere he decdides im not catching him and thats another day off ! It annoys me because its like "hey mum feed me a treat pat me but oh is that the head collar byeeee" I just want someone to give me a manual - laughs- unfortunately only in my dreams. Another issue is he is scared or otherwise decided that he will not load ! If ever one is nice enough to give advice on atleast one topic then maybe all my questions will be answered !

[TaffAme]

Heya, really felt your pain throughout that msg! Does he stand for the mounting block if he hasn't got tack on? E.g. have you tried just leading him up to it in headcollar and rope? If you haven't tried this, I'd try it. Just lead him past it a few times, as close as poss, and then get him to stand next to it briefly. Make a fuss of him, give him a small treat, and take him away. Do this every day for a week, gradually building up the time you spend standing at the mounting block. Even get a friend to hold him next to it whilst you groom him there for 5 mins or so. Build up to standing on the block whilst somebody holds him on the ground - don't mount, just stroke him and groom him from on top of it. Then, once he'll do this, tack him up, take him up to the mounting block, give his mane and face a once-over whilst he's stood there, and then lead him away and get on him away from the mounting block. Keep doing this, each time getting a little nearer to the mounting block. Eventually, you'll be able to get him standing by the mounting block, fully tacked up. Then, get on him very gently.

Haven't really got much advice about the canter situation as I've never experienced this before. Have you tried just letting him go as fast as he wishes around a field or large school? If I were you, right or wrong, I'd just let him bolt into canter when I asked for it. Then when he wants to slow down, don't let him. Make him keep going until YOU want to stop. I'd just keep doing this until he's learnt that we go at the speed YOU want to go, not the speed HE wants to go! Once I'd done this quite a bit, try getting him to follow another horse? A steady one which won't kick and which does a nice canter. You may need to do this on a hack in a straight line before trying it in a school as horses find straight lines easier; plus, its easier to follow another horse in a straight line than round in circles.

As for the catching in the field - I'm at a loss. My friend's horse can be a real bugger to catch and we've never mastered him (not to say it can't be done - we just haven;'t found anything that works yet!). We just corner him in the field with 3 of us and grab him to sling the headcollar on!
One thought I've just had though - have you tried a field headcollar? You can leave them on during turnout for easy catching, but they will break if horse gets caught up in field.

Good luck - keep us updated. xx

[TaffAme]

P.S my horse was exactly the same with loading but we've cracked him! We once spent 2 hrs trying to load him - and my friend's horse, we've spent 3.5 hrs on!! Here's what we did:

1) Make the trailer look really inviting - fresh straw, haynet, feed bucket inside etc.
2) Leave the side-ramp down at the front so that it doesn't look dark inside.
3) Get the horse as close as poss to the ramp. Have a lunge line attached to either side of the trailer, forming a sort of tunnel for him to walk thru into the trailer. If he stops, 2 people need to hold a lunge line each, and cross the lines behind him, so that he's trapped. Your helpers really do have to PULL them in sometimes - the crossed lunge lines behind his bum act as a kind of 'scoop' to scoop him into the trailer!
4) Another option (depending on situation and horse) is to have a horse in the trailer who is a perfect loader - let your horse watch them go into the trailer. Then, your horse is more likely to go in on the other side of the trailer as they've got company. (worked a treat with my horse but not my friend's, as her horse doesn't like to load with the partition in the middle - it has to be more 'open' and then once he's in they pull the partition into the middle).
5) Do this frequently. Don't expect immediate results - it takes lots of time and patience!
6) Drive a couple of times round the block for 5 mins, before giving him his daily feed inside the trailer, and letting him back out into his field.

xx

[blues mum]

My horse had the kissing spine op.
I was told he could not jump again???
are you really sure that jumping is the way to aim after these problems.
You need to go right back to basics.
He has learnt that riding gives him pain.
forget about riding for a while and gain his respect on the ground.
I had to go this way with dusty.
long reining , and some of the kelly marks games helped Dusty trust and respect me.
He is retired now, and to be honest, some kissing spine horses never regain a full level of comfort.
do stomach lifts on the ground as well,train him to round his back again from the floor.
but maybe you need to rethink your whole approach to him ???
people have only given him pain so far.

[lorna01]

Totaly agree with Taffame with the mounting block-very good way to do it and helps to build trust.

Cantering- what is he like to lunge? from my experiences I find that lunging can help a lot with cantering.
Its hard to sort out a canter on their back to begin with especially if you are starting to become a little frightened. It wont help the problem.
Get him to canter as slow as you can and get him to listen to your voice.
This tends to help me a lot.

Catching- persistance, I would try and take a few days and just wonder around the feild, wondering from horse to horse just talking to them all. Sit on the grass, poo picking is quite good to make them interested in what you are doing. Dont have a head collar to begin with, then next time wonder around with the head collar then next time put it on and take it off, just building it up like you would with the mounting block.
Its something to try.

Dont give up yet, take your time and get the catching sorted first to help build his confidence in you, then the mounting block and I would also try some ground schooling aswell as lunging, totally change his routine and start again. back to basics as if he was a youngster.

Loads of grooming too, just try to build a really strong relationship, that should help

Dont forget-Its alright to be affraid. Good luck, I hope you can get this sorted. If i think of anything else ill post it X

[gordysgirl]

I can totally understand your frustration & whilst your horse may appear stubborn it is likely the behaviours he is showing are down to the fact that at some point they caused him pain. First & foremost I would just double check comfort levels in his back, I use an osteo on my horse who had a pelvic problem & he worked some wonders.
I have similar issues with my TB with loading, he associates travelling with vets, farriers - general discomfort. He is not scared to travel & is generally relaxed, I think it is more knowing that he will end up somewhere he doesn't want to be - it is my job now to convince him its not all bad & that it can be fun. Easier said than done.

With the mounting its just gonna be practice practice practice, slowly building up periods in hand at mounting block so he is relaxed & comfortable to allowing you to mount.

With the cantering, I wander whether you may just benefit from having a few lessons with him - it can be so beneficial having someone see you from the ground who might be able to point somethings out to you - no matter our experience lessons are always useful!
I would also do some lunge work with him...increasing his balance & confidence in canter on the lunge will make it easier for him once you get on. I use a pessoa on my TB who came to me off the track & had zero idea what an outline was! He benefitted from it greatly & still does.

Good luck with it, he sounds like a genuine horse with a very thoughtful owner. :)

[DebO]

Hi there

It must be so frustrating for you but it sounds to me that he associates riding with pain, not surprising eh after what he's gone through. The mounting block, cantering and not wanting to be caught.

If you are 100% sure he's OK with his back then I guess it's just going to be a long drawn out affair with plenty of patience, and you gaining his trust. Perhaps vary his routine and try different things, even give him a small break for a while.

If he really finds cantering a problem then don't canter. Maybe eventually you'll be able to one day. Have a lesson as someone else suggested or get videod so you can see if there's anything going on.

I always have a small plastic wrapper or something in my pocket (and polos) and rattle that if they are reluctant to be caught. That usually gets their attention, but don't rush to grab him, take it slow, you'll be able to read his body language with your experience tp know when you can get him. (I used to have mare years ago who always ran away, used to take me ages to get her even with a bucket of feed. I'd get her eventually but needed patience).

It's a bit like us, if we have a bad experience it's always there lurking in the back of your mind, and takes a while before you can get over it, sometimes by doing small steps at a time (although some people can't).

He's very lucky to have you as you sound very concerned for his welfare, and you obviously love him and want to do the best for him. He could be with someone who thinks he's being naughty and treat him badly.

Good luck,

DebO

[kayleigh26]

My horse had the kissing spine op.
I was told he could not jump again???
are you really sure that jumping is the way to aim after these problems.
You need to go right back to basics.
He has learnt that riding gives him pain.
forget about riding for a while and gain his respect on the ground.
I had to go this way with dusty.
long reining , and some of the kelly marks games helped Dusty trust and respect me.
He is retired now, and to be honest, some kissing spine horses never regain a full level of comfort.
do stomach lifts on the ground as well,train him to round his back again from the floor.
but maybe you need to rethink your whole approach to him ???
people have only given him pain so far.


Blues mum i just wanted to clear up that his back is not affecting him, the thought of the pain from before ( about 1 year and a half ago now) may still be in his mind but the vet had said and still says it wont affect him at all. He has been given full checks and the vets say he can happily continue doing what he did before - jumping , hunting etc as it was only mild kissing spine. I understand your concern about that but that is why i highlighted his back had been checked several times- also i jumped him before i bought him - his previous owner had been bringing him back into work - to the best of her ability- for a short while before i got him and so jumping is a perfectly suitble aim is his case maybe not for other horses though i understand.

Also thanks for the advice so far guys more is welcome :)

[prettybluepony]

I'll try and help you with your canter issue. I ride a lot of babies teaching them the basics so I'm used to this issue, it's quite common; even in veterans. It's nothing to panic about. ;) Set a pole across the track at a diagonal across it, where your planning to go onto canter, not to far in otherwise you might be stopping him by going into a fence with less then a canter stride to turn. (Easiest at all 4 corners as this will help stop a train effect.)

He's bashed you confidence a bit, so unless you already have a martingale on I would just pop a neck-strap on to help prevent a confusion should you wobble, I still use them on young'uns. Warm him up etc., without touching canter with a barge pole, lots of nice balanced trot, either collected or working if your thinking like that. Once your all ready to go, keep a nice steady trot get to about half way round so your halfway up the short end of the school or where ever your riding, and do a nice steady 20 meter circle, as your heading back for the rail, take hold of your neck strap in your outside hand not to far down, but enough so your sorta opening the rail side up, keeping a good contact with the other hand. A stride before the pole prepare to canter, and relax, look up and think down(sounds weird but really push your heels down and ride the canter.) As he's about to go over the pole ask for canter, can be quite sharp if need be. This should give you a nice stride off. Talk to yourself and him. Something like: "Can-ter, 1, 2, 3, can-ter" or the like, and keep giving him little nudges, and a short sharp kick if you feel him falling out.

If he rushes, or drops back into canter, immediately pull him back round into the circle, calm, collect and repeat. This has worked for any problem canters I've know. ;) For variation you can put a few canter poles out(heavy ones) where he normally breaks into trot and give him a little kick at the first one, he should grasp your meaning. Have you tried having someone lunge you one him so you can really concentrate on the pace and your position without worrying about silly things like walls and all. :D

Remember to have fun with your boy. Quick question does he have a nice canter after a jump? Try trotting up-to a really small cross-pole (an extra extended stride really) and just little him canter a few strides on the other side if so, and gradually increase it until your going the whole way round like that?

And don't let it ruin you confidence, have you got any friends that will let you have a bit of fun on their ponies for a little bit sometimes so you remember you can ride?